I'm curious - Do HRC supporters sincerely believe she "won" MI and FL fairly and above board?

[HardWorkingDem]

Listening to one of HRC's campaign people tonight, the subject of seating the MI and FL delegates again came up and that she "won" those states.

What I would like to know is, do HRC supporters really believe she "won" those states fairly and above board?

I'll be up front from the start - I do not. Only her name was left on the Michigan ballot while other Dem candidates did the right thing and had theirs removed and with Florida, while all other Dems pledged to avoid Florida, HRC campaigned in neighboring states and in shared media locations. Also, she continued to "stop in" Florida while other Dems did not.

Personally, I think her claim to MI and FL is quite spurious.

[truedelphi]

1. They think it is so brave and so wonderfully courageous of her to persist

However Howard Dean is saying that there will be some type of seating for MI and FLA at the convention.

He wants this three pointer to precail:
1) The candicdates BOTH get input on how it will occur
2) the people in those two states get some input on how it will occur
3) the people in the other 48 states also get input.

There are scheduled "redo's" of the two primaries - one in the first week of August and one on the second day of the Dem convention.

[Muttocracy]

2. seeing what happened with IN and MI, I bet FL and MI are kicking themselves

This year early was not better!

[Birthmark]

3. FL yes, MI no.

[Buzz Clik]

19. FL had equivalent non-campaigns from both candidates. But....

Voting under those circumstances would be similar to voting on the Academy Awards based on movie trailers and reviews without having watched the movies.

[Birthmark]

21. That's the biggest bunch of nonsense.

Seriously, we get TV, radio, and even the internets here in FL. Anyone who wanted to be informed could easily be informed. The only thing we "missed" was the horrendous onslaught of misleading ads.

[Buzz Clik]

24. Whether it's nonsense depends on your perspective, doesn't it.

What you really missed was the opportunity to tell your state legislators not to screw you. Maybe next time.

[Dawgs]

29. What about those people that didn't vote because they were told it wouldn't count?

Not really an election when the voters believe it won't count, is it?

[ikojo]

4. If Obama had won those states, Hillary would not

be campaigning to count the votes Since Her Royal Clintoness "won" them then it is imperative that those votes be counted.

[Hippo_Tron]

5. They cite "record turnout" ignoring the fact that there was record turnout all over the country

Here's some facts...

6 states had higher GOP primary turnout than Dem primary turnout in 2008

They were Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Utah, Florida and Michigan. Alaska, Alabama, and Utah are very very red states. Arizona is McLame's home state.

The only explanation for why Michigan and Florida fit into this category is because a sizable number of people believed their vote wouldn't count so they stayed home or voted in the GOP primary.

[NewHampshireDem]

7. Hmm ... those are some interesting facts that I did not know

And are probably worth shouting from the rooftops.

[JI7]

8. Utah might have been because of Romney

[Skip Intro]

6. She won FL fairly.

[Hieronymus]

9. Sure, she did.

:sarcasm:

[dbmk]

20. A vote that was officially pronounced as not counting.

Making it count anyway should be obvious to anyone as being, at the very least, deeply problematic.

[Orsino]

28. Obvious.

But which way the vote would therefore have been biased is unclear. It was an effed-up vote, but how was it effed up? We'll never know.

Since Dean has committed to seating the delegates, though, he has declared the process fair enough.

[dbmk]

34. Commited to seating the delegates, yes.

But only in a fashing that the campaigns - or ultimately the credentials comittee can agree on, afaik.

So in essence either all the players agree to a rule change - which is fair enough in my book - or the winner according to the approved rules(who will control the CC) changes them him/herself.

[MonkeyFunk]

10. Florida, yes

Clinton did NOT campaign in Florida, although Obama did run ads there.

Clinton had a fundraiser there, which was specificially allowed by the pledge. Obama had two of them.

God, the way you people lie.

[DiverDave]

11. Did she or did she not sign a pledge

to not do ANYTHING in those 2 states?

They ALL did.
And THIS is who you want to run our country?

Man, YOU people need to get with the program, or mccain is gonna win...and it'll be YOUR fault

[MonkeyFunk]

12. The pledge did not require candidates to remove their

names.

It required them not to campaign there. Obama broke that pledge. Clinton honored the pledge.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

13. why do the 'participate' part always miss from that line with most Hillary supporters?

personally I'd say keeping your name on the ballot would be 'participating', i am also positive Obama would have removed his name from Florida had it not been for the fact that you actually have to drop out of the race fully to do so(as far as I've understood the Florida rules)

[MonkeyFunk]

15. Why didn't the pledge make it explicit

if you think it's so obvious?

Why didn't the DNC at any point complain to Clinton, Dodd, Gravel and Kucinich about not removing their names? Why doesn't Howard Dean say TODAY that they were obligated to remove their names? Because they weren't - you guys just made it up.

And what about Obama violating the letter of the pledge by advertising in Florida? You're accusing Clinton, Dodd, Gravel and Kucinich of violating the spirit of the pledge - what about actual, provable violations? Why are you only concerned about imagined violations, not real ones?

[RTBerry]

16. Thanks for mentioning the FL Obama ads.

That story was certainly swept under the rug quickly.

[LaurenG]

26. Where is the major malfunction here?

I don't understand where the lie is. Did the DNC state that if the primaries were held ahead of time that the votes would NOT count? Did all candidates sign on the line stating they understood this?

What part of that is hard to understand?

I agree that the powers that be in those states absolutely screwed the voters but all candidates willingly said OK and if they were screwed it was by their own consent.

Whatever ends up happening here it will screw someone. I am not a supporter of Senator Clinton and I see this through the eyes of an Obama supporter and through that lens this is a non issue.

[Dawgs]

30. Florida, no

You can't claim an election is legit when the voters are told that it won't count. Anyone with half a brain knows that the results are tainted; which should automatically nullify the election.

[HardWorkingDem]

40. I DID not LIE...nor state...

HRC campaigned in Florida - what I stated was she campaigned in neighboring states and in shared media markets and did fundraisers.

Obama did not campaign in Florida after the seating issue started.

So, I expect an apology for being called a liar, which I doubt will be forthcoming. Otherwise I guess you can't read well.

[Kahuna]

14. They believe: It's not how you play the game. It's whether you win or lose..

Silly.

[gabeana]

17. Hill supporters still disingenuous about Obama ads

again those ads were national ad buys that ran on CNN. Obama campaign asked and received the Ok from the DNC,that they were not breaking the rules. If Clinton had enough money she would have done the same thing.

[MonkeyFunk]

39. No

he did not get permission from the DNC. He got permission from one state party chair - who didn't have the authority to release him from the pledge.

If Clinton had run ads there, you guys would explode. But he can do no wrong, she can do no right. But he's the only one who violated the pledge, whatever excuse you make.

[Yukari Yakumo]

18. "We lie, We cheat, We steal"

She's done the first plenty of times. She'd like to do the second in hopes of accomplishing the third.

[Warren Stupidity]

22. The dead enders have given up on honesty. nt.

[rucky]

23. Florida is up for debate. Michigan is not.

and anybody who tries to make the case for seating MI as-is gets no respect from me.

[Dawgs]

32. Florida is not up for debate.

It's not a legit election when many voters (AND POTENTIAL VOTERS) understood it wouldn't count.

[rucky]

37. a revote is out.

so now what?

that's the only reason I say it's up for debate

[Cal Carpenter]

25. I know plenty of people who didn't vote in the Michigan primary

because they supported Obama, or another candidate, or they just didn't understand the whole mess and avoided it. Others I know went to vote and didn't know what was going on - so they either voted uncommitted or they voted Clinton because she was on the ballot, even though they didn't necessarily support her. The Michigan vote is in no way representative of the voters' (or potential voters) support for the candidates.

Not everyone follows things as closely as those here on DU. I know some here will judge people for their ignorance of the details but it's not the average person's fault that the process was so convoluted.

I am just a Dem - not a Clinton or Obama loyalist. Like most Dems outside of the online political universe, I just want a good candidate to vote for in November and I think we'll have one either way.

[Lerkfish]

27. fairness and above board and clinton do not belong in the same sentence.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

31. It is another case

of MAGIC PONY LAND!

The Clinton campaign has done everything possible to win this election... But it has all been done under sniper fire.

[electron_blue]

33. No. I voted for her in another state in Feb, and from the beginning I have been

saying that no way were the primaries in Mi/Fl fair, above board, etc. I think it stinks that in Fl, voters were told their vote wouldn't count, many stayed home bcs of that, and now their votes will be counted.

I'm aboard with Obama now, but from the beginning, even when I supported HRC, I have been totally against this. I'm a rule stickler. ;)

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

35. Don't forget name recognition.

January 29.

Without campaigning how would it be fair when one of the candidates is the best known women in the country/world?

Anybody?

[OnionPatch]

36. I agree with you 100%

Especially with the Michigan vote. OBAMA WAS NOT ON THE BALLOT!!!!! How can ANYONE claim that was a fair election? If you do, you are deluding yourself. If Hillary gets those votes in Michigan, I, for one, will be outraged. Florida is a little different. She came closer to actually earning those votes but even that election is not quite kosher. She did campaign there when the others agreed not to. If Obama had campaigned there, I believe he would have received a lot more votes.

Sure Hillary supporters and voters in MI and FL feel cheated, but if we count those votes, then even more of us will feel cheated. Sorry, there is no good answer to this problem except to split the votes evenly and move on.

[nomorewhopper]

38. they just want the delegates. its about politics now, not what's right or true