I admire that she continues to fight....

[Wetzelbill]

I don't like Hillary's campaign tactics, and she's effectively been beat for a while now, barring a miraculous comeback, but I admire that she won't give up. It's almost nonsensical, it's like the basketball player still frenetically playing the last 30 seconds of a game while down by 20 points. It's gutsy. Yeah sure, she's banged Obama up, and lots of people just want her to accept it and get out, but she's spent her whole life waiting to get her, and it has to be tough to just let it go. She's like an old warrior who is outgunned by a younger opponent but just won't stay down even though it's futile. I never thought of Hillary as an underdog or anything, but I admire her strength in the face of adversity. Her dream is about to end and she's still hanging in there. There's something remarkable in that.

[stray cat]

1. It reminds me of Monty Python as the knight is still fighting after all his limbs are cut off

[Wetzelbill]

4. ok that made me laugh

:rofl:

[stray cat]

10. glad someone else besides myself appreciates Monty Python

[JTFrog]

19. It's just a flesh wound!

[John Q. Citizen]

2. Yeah, plus she's 11 million in debt. If she quits she can kiss it all that money good bye.

[Wetzelbill]

8. oh yeah

[PassingFair]

47. If she promises to STOP, I'LL donate to her! n/t

[SoonerPride]

3. I think it is sad

Really sad and pathetic

[Wetzelbill]

6. in a way yeah

But, I'm a former internationally competitive athlete, it's in my bones to empathize with someone who won't give it up when it's over. I've been a little like that before. It's both sad and admirable to watch somebody go down fighting. I just wished her campaign hadn't been so dirty about certain things these last several weeks.

[Ganja Ninja]

5. Her campaign is finished.

Her fund raising continues. That's what the next 3 weeks is about for Hillary. She's looking to get back some of that money she loaned her campaign.

[Wetzelbill]

7. that has to be a big factor

But yeah, she's essentially done, especially with people like Clark and McGovern very publicly urging her to get out.

[PATRICK]

9. Her huge number of delegates remain

Has that sunk in yet? Maybe it can't since she is still contending. If she can't use that bloc for party unity, there is a big problem there.

[Cha]

11. Did you also admire her when she didn't "fight"

bush all those years she was licking his little boots?

hilary's fighting(sniper liar) for the m$$$fm war machine..but it's nice to know you "admire" that.

[Wetzelbill]

15. irrelevant to my op

I wasn't discussing any of that, just her campaign. It's a known fact that Hillary's fighter reputation is for herself, not for any major issue or event that she took a valiant stand on. Everything doesn't have to boil down to a hatred of a person. Did you admire Barack when he voted for Cheney's energy bill, or when he (like Hillary) continued to fund and support the Iraq War time and time again? Did you admire when his campaign had a memo that put forth a way to attack the Clintons on issues of racism? No, I bet you didn't. I didn't vote for either one in the primary, I'm not some rabid maniac who goes berserk when somebody mentions either Obama or Clinton, I'm just saying I admire, in a way, that she's willing to fight it out even though she's been beat for a while.

[Cha]

22. No, it's not "irrelevant"..you just think it is..

and that's my opinion.

[Wetzelbill]

25. yeah it is

that's not an opinion, that's a fact. When you bring up something that doesn't have anything to do with what an OP is saying, that's irrelevant.

[Cha]

29. Dream on... n/t

[Wetzelbill]

35. I say I admired that she has stuck it out

and fought for her dream of being president, and I expressly mentioned I didn't like her tactics etc. I am not a Hillary voter, I never said I was, I never mentioned that I supported any other action that she has done in terms of her votes in the Senate or her policies. Somehow, you construe that to mean that I approve of her "boot-licking" the Bush administration and that I support the war and something you identify as the MSM "war machine." That's a pretty delusional reach. There is no dreaming on about it, you took what I said and made it into something that had nothing to do with my post.

[Quixote1818]

12. There she goes!!!

Rarely do I use Don Quixote to make a negative point, but Hillary is now encompassing the worst qualities of my folk hero Mr. Quixote.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. At this point it is actually dysfunctional

She is eleven million in the hole

She needs 75% in the next contexts to finally make any difference... and will not happen

So at this point I don't think its gutsy but dysfunctional

My opinion purely and I hate to point out the damage that this will do to the party and the candidate

[WA98296]

18. Dysfunctional or Delusional...that's what I thought as I watched her last night. Surreal and Sad.

[bowens43]

14. you reach a certain point, a point she reached weeks ago, and it's just stupidity.

[seabeyond]

16. another sport comparison.... football practice. dont BLOODY the quaterback

what is there to admire when she has been "beat for a while now" that she continues fighting. i dont see anything admirable in that.

[rucky]

17. I hear ya, but we're almost at the point where a better analogy would be...

[JTFrog]

20. My favorite political cartoon this season:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

21. I find it mildly annoying.

Comme ci, comme ca.

[Wetzelbill]

23. yeah I do too

I feel a few different things about it. I begrudgingly respect that she has stayed in so long. :)

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

26. Yep. Begrudging respect.

And loathing anger!

[knixphan]

24. there's a basketball term for that futile period at the end of a game

...during which the teams empty their benches...

what's the term, class?

[BlooInBloo]

27. Garbage time!!! I win! I win!

Except we're keeping our starters in, of course.

[knixphan]

32. ding ding ding!

:bounce:

[Wetzelbill]

30. I did say it was nonsensical

that's for sure. Her actions from here on out will really matter. What she has done so far really hasn't been all that bad, it hasn't hurt him much. Everybody acts like she's severely damaged him but she hasn't, he's taken everything she threw at him and ended up exceeding expectations last night. The Wright issue, all of that, it got traction in the chattering classes and with bloggers etc, but he ended up persevering. He's had a bad few weeks and the numbers stayed good for him. But now, the extremely outside shot that she had is over. If she keeps up the attacks, well, this is when it truly gets despicable. He can move on and talk like the nominee, if she still goes out of the way to damage him, that will be absolutely classless sour grapes.

[knixphan]

34. agreed

[EFerrari]

28. I can't admire a candidate or a campaign that has gone down the road

they chose. It's hard to admire someone's energy or tenaciousness when they are spreading poison all over the place.

[Wetzelbill]

37. yeah I can see that

I'm able to separate it a little. I've been disgusted with some of the things she has done, but I can begrudgingly respect that she's willing to hang in there.

[ShortnFiery]

31. I resent HRC's selfishness and egocentrism. It is "all about her." NOT "The People"

[Wetzelbill]

38. I think that's an aspect too

I can roll with that, but a part of me has a certain respect that she's willing to fight it out.

[redqueen]

33. I *would* admire it, if she weren't hurling RW BS...

as it is, though...

*sigh*

[Wetzelbill]

40. the Rovian tactics

are a big problem. She lost me when she said that McCain had passed the "CiC" test and alluded that Obama didn't. She really started getting dirty, I don't approve of most of that stuff, some of it might be fair game, like the 3am phone call which I don't agree with but is probably fair, but she went over the line on other things, for sure.

[SoCalDem]

36. Know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em

come to mind..

There does come a time, when fighting on creates more havoc than benefit..Viet Nam also comes to mind..

At the point when someone realizes that they cannot win, it's a good time to consider an extrication plan, instead of continuing a losing cause.. Many many businesspeople are bankrupt today, because they kept on running a business that was losing money.

Is MOST primary seasons, the frontrunner emerges, solo...very early on. There is no "rule".. Dean could have kept on going, as could have Edwards, but they did the grown up thing and evaluated their real chances, and bowed out with some dignity.

There's more here than meets the eye.. She wants it too much, and seems willing to prevent anyone from having it, if she cannot be the one.

Had she run 11 in a row, the media would have forced him out in a heartbeat, and she would have never cared one iota for the "rest of the primary season" after he dropped out..This whole "Hillary cares for you" routine is pretty obvious to some of us..

[donheld]

39. I do not admire her for continuing to fight

I do wish he had used this fighting energy to fight Bush for the last 8 years.

[Wetzelbill]

41. well now

She can't do it much longer. Up to this point, it's been fine, but if she keeps at it and keeps trying to damage him when she's effectively beaten, that's inexcusable. But yeah, it would have been nice to see her put on this same fighting zeal when the Iraq War vote or the Kyl-Lieberman vote came up.

[SanchoPanza]

42. She'll be out before the convention

North Carolina and the poor showing in Indiana oblitered any remaining sensible metric with which she could persuade Super Delegates to turn her way. Even the popular vote totals including FL/MI are more irrelevent now than they were when it was just an argument over unsanctioned primaries.

Prediction: In the next four weeks, or three, she'll run a much cleaner campaign, emphasizing her core committment to Democratic ideals. Any mention of Sen. Obama will be done in a positive light. She sees the writing in the wall, and knows that she is in the best position to bring her strongest supporters around to the fact that she won't be the nominee, and that they should support Obama. You saw hints of it during her speech following the primaries.

This is about a graceful exit now, which helps both her and the party. This can't be accomplished with a quick concession or a fight to the convention, but a middle way that let's her most ardent supportes down easy and the party leadership know that she's not going to harm it's chances of running a full court press on the GOP following the convention. A floor fight probably wouldn't be responsible for a John McCain presidency, but it will effect downticket races and the ability to raise money.

Some people might scoff at the notion of Hillary "fighting on" to bring peace on to the Democratic Party, but realize that Hillary Clinton is far smarter than she is ambitious. Ending her campaign on a sour note, either now or at the convention, does a lot more harm to her than it does to Obama.

[Wetzelbill]

43. a senior Clinton advisor told Lawrence O' Donnell by June 15

I think probably before that. I think she won't be as negative either, it doesn't serve much of a purpose anymore. I hope anyway.

[SanchoPanza]

46. On O'Donnell

The information passed to him was rather cryptic, and people can draw whatever inferences from it they like. But Sen. Clinton has some solid analysts in her camp (though her strategists leave a lot to be desired), and there's little doubt that, if Carville's blackjack analogy has been their operating strategy, she just pulled a 19 to Obama's 20, and there's no more twos in the deck.

The notion that she would "destroy the party to save it" is rather overblown, as I see it. Though we are talking about a person who has lived and breathed American politics for her entire adult life, and to say she has no ambition for the Presidency is like assuming a Federal Judge has no ambition to be Associate Justice, or that a National Champion Figureskater has no ambition to win Olympic Gold, there always comes a point where ambition collides with reality. This is not a pleasant process, but she's smart. She knows scorching the Earth will get her, her Party, or the country nothing. All it does is make her look petty.

That being my operating assumption, a concession now does nothing. Her supporters will be bitter, and the Party will have to spend time and resources uniting itself rather than moving forward towards November. Witness to the response to threads saying "It's over, she should concede now." Staying in the race for a short time, striking a more uplifting tone, lets her leave the race on a high note.

If she takes it to the convention, the same result occurs. It has to be an even, drawn out process.

[mkultra]

44. shes more like those japs that hide in caves after the war ended

Even though everyone said the war was over, they refused to believe that the empire would fall. So they eat bats and drank rain water.

[Wetzelbill]

45. that's kind of admirable

in a fucked up way. :)