Dean sucks as party chair. If I were an Obama supporter...

[Maddy McCall]

I'd still feel the same way.

He painted himself into a corner with his silly "I demand you respect my authority" crap. And he's only hurting Democrats by doing so.

There is no graceful way for him to get out of the mess he's created...one way or the other, half the active Democrats in the party will be very pissed with him.

But he did it to himself. He lacked the foresight to envision the problems that his rigidity caused.

Hopefully, the next chair of the Democratic party will learn from Dean's mistakes and won't repeat them.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yardwork]

2. I really like and respect Dean for what he's done for the party.

[meow mix]

3. Dean is a Democratic Party Super-Hero.

and your post is lame.

[Maddy McCall]

12. Only to half of the party.

[PassingFair]

58. The non-DLC half....n/t

[roguevalley]

80. the only thing that sucks about Howard Dean is the way some people

treat him. he has helped make my state in play. jeez. go annoy someone elsewhere with your hating.

[catgirl]

91. That's BS

[blogslut]

4. Bummer

I am an Obama supporter and Doctor Dean is doing fine.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. Dean's been the best chair in many years. Perhaps ever.

If you were a democrat you'd feel the same way.

[Maddy McCall]

15. Only to half of the party...

the half that's benefitting from his bullheadedness.

[John Q. Citizen]

21. The whole party has benefited from following the rules. You should try it. Or are you special?

[L0oniX]

40. You must mean the other half that doesn't care about breaking rules.

[Mooney]

69. He won us back the house and Senate.

Please identify which half of the party is unhappy about that.

[democracy1st]

139. Ok he hasn't been good for the DLC corporate wing

[PresidentObama]

6. His 50 state strategy is working, and we won in 2006 if you recall. He's great as DNC chair!

[Maddy McCall]

19. We won because people despise Bush.

[PresidentObama]

29. That can only take you so far...

[bvar22]

105. Then we should have won in 2004.....

...when Hillary's DLC pal McAuliff was chair of the DNC......but we didn't.

[tritsofme]

145. Bush didn't have sub 30% approval ratings in 2004.

No one wanted to (or wants to today) admit that Bush was a very strong candidate in 2004.

[Heathen57]

124. Our state did go for Shrub in 2004

but with Dean's 50 state Plan we now have the state legislature, governorship, and Dem senators and reps. (Unfortunately they side with the DLC more than I care for.)

Hillary and the DLC doesn't think our state is worth spending any money on. Dean proved them wrong.

Dean <===:yourock:

[grantcart]

7. He's enforcing the rule that Clinton wanted so she could get her monster

Super Tuesday National Primary


She loses the primary and HRC supporters blame Dean. Surrealistic.

[L0oniX]

43. Yes and she agreed to the rules to start with ...and then flip flops of course. doh

[WeDidIt]

8. Dean merely enforced the ruling of the R&BC

IF you want to hate on somebody, hate on Harold Ickes. He, Debbie Stabenow, Jennifer Granholm, and Ben Nelson had thousands of times more to do with the mess than Dean.

[truebrit71]

9. Yeah he sucks...NOT

:eyes:

He sucks because as Chairmen he has to enforce rules?

Sorry, I'm not buying that pro-Hillary bullshit...

If it weren't for Howard Dean this party would be in some REALLY deep shit...

Once we have nominated Obama we can begin the purge of Centrist DINO's and RECLAIM this party...

[here_is_to_hope]

10. Dean rocks.

"....half the active Democrats in the party will be very pissed with him."

I dont see this 'half' you speak of. Where are they hiding?

[Cali_Democrat]

24. It's Hillbot logic

The OP is essentially saying that all of Hillary's supporters are angry with Dean because he wont let Florida and Michigan break the rules.

[On the Road]

11. Every Time I See Dean Speak

I am more impressed with him. IMO, MI and FL handled their primaries abominably and have made no effort whatsoever to get a clean delegate selection. Yet Dean is still adamant that both slates will be seated.

[XemaSab]

13. Dean's my baby-daddy

You step to Dean, you're stepping to me.

[Maddy McCall]

20. LOL.

Thanks for the laugh.

:D

[leftofcool]

14. I had a great deal of respect for Dean until

This Florida/Michigan fiasco. Regardless of Dean's motivation behind his alleged rules for those states, he will no doubt pay the price after the GE if both Florida and Michigan are lost as I suspect they will be. I do give him credit for now trying to fix the situation.

[Maddy McCall]

22. Yep...we will lose Florida for sure...

I doubt we'll lose Michigan, though.

But to intentionally take a pivotal state out of play in the General was stupid.

[Justitia]

35. Yeah, because FL is sooo blue. TX has elected more Dem presidents than FL. -eom

[leftofcool]

53. Sorry, Al Gore won Florida and you know it.......GWB stole

that election if you remeber right

[Justitia]

61. Yeah, uh - huh, FL is REALLY a blue state in disguise. Delusional. -eom

[LVjinx]

114. Surprise... Team Obama has retroactively decided that what happened in FL was actually ok in 2000

[leftofcool]

56. I hope we don't lose Michigan

[goclark]

136. We won Florida in 2000 and we won Ohio

rather Diebold and Rove won Ohio. The chads won in Florida.

That's why they picked McCain. It didn't matter who they picked, the Supreme Court will again pick the President.

They could have picked Howdy Dowdy and the fix will still be in.

We will have to BE THE MEDIA through the Underground Internet and we will have to BE the BALLOT POLICE.

I don't know how to organize it but that is what it will take for any Democrat to win this election.

This election will be where the rubber meets the road.

We must demonstrate that,"We're not gonna take it anymore."

NOT. THIS. TIME

[Justitia]

26. those aren't "his" rules, those are the rules of the Democratic Party.

And it would be nothing short of all out war if the rest of us had to play by all the rules and FL & MI didn't.

Trust me, Texas would never stand for that bullshit. We are way bigger, have more delegates, more voting Democrats and we took our freaking turn.

[AllentownJake]

31. Terry Mac

Was the one who was largely responsible for the current nominating rules.

Terry Mac messes up and Hillary blames Dean.

[L0oniX]

47. And they are the rules that Hillary agreed to. Oh well I guess she can't be trusted to follow rules.

[hfojvt]

50. Yeah, we lost Florida in 1980, 1984, 1988, 1992, 2000, and 2004

So if we lose it in 2008, it will be ALL Dean's fault. :argh:

[leftofcool]

57. No we did not lose Florida in 2004

That was a rigged election and you know it.

[Mooney]

71. What will stop it from being rigged this year?

If we lost it due to the election being fixed in that state in the last two elections, what's changed to make it legit this time? Or are you saying that Hillary Clinton becoming the nominee by winning Florida's stripped delegates will cause that state to go blue this year?

[Maribelle]

81. The legislation that moved the primary date also made 'paper trails' a rule.

Yes, that very same bill that Dean and Brazile have used to slash the throats of Democratic voices in Florida, was a bill to dramatically help prevent the horrors of past elections.

Ironic, yes?

[Maribelle]

77. Florida was Dean's to lose this year, sadly. Just when Democrats were making a comback in the state

Dean has knocked off Democrats hopes of winning back the state house for perhaps a decade. Democrats had managed to win seats in districts so badly carved by Republican gerrymandering it was almost miraculous, and at the same time were registering new Democrats in record numbers. Dean has brought this to an abrupt halt. And not only has Dean halted the progress of Democrats - - sadly he has made them laughing stocks.

[Justitia]

83. That is so much horseshit, I don't even know where to begin. Hillary is losing on her own merits.

Get used to the idea and quit blaming everyone but the responsible party - the candidate herself.

[Maribelle]

86. Hillary went into Florida's history books with a record-shattering primary victory.

What on earth are you going on about?

[Justitia]

90. What?!? By CHEATING, and GOING BACK ON HER WORD, totally underhanded.

It's pathetically laughable that you would even be so incapable of shame that you would declare it a "victory" - what a riot!

[Maribelle]

149. Making up lies about Hillary does not alter the fact that Florida has recorded her victory

It was not hardly me that declare Hillary's victory. It seems you've attempted to bash me with something you've made up.

[Hippo_Tron]

110. Florida elected Jeb Bush's anointed successor to the Governor's mansion in '06...

While the rest of the country overwhelmingly voted for Democrats largely due to Bush fatigue. Call me crazy but it seems that Florida is just as red as it was in '04.

[xxqqqzme]

89. The rules are the rules presented by

Democratic Party rules committee and accepted by a vote of the DNC members last year. The rules are not 'his alleged rules'. Dean did not write them nor present them so they are not HIS. The are not 'alleged' either. The rules are fact because they were passed by the members last year.

[catgirl]

98. until.... Hills only chance was to go the nuclear route

until.... you realized Mi and FL may be the only way... wait,
even with them, she'll still be behind. until.... you had to blame
HIM for the MI and FL state leaderships screw ups. until...

[dbmk]

119. A couple of points

1) I don't think these rules: http://s3.amazonaws.com/apache.3cdn.net/de68e7b6dfa0743217_hwm6bhyc4.pdf
can be viewed as alleged. Especially since they have been approved by the DNC, afaik.

2) As far as I know he was not involved in ruling using the beforementioned rules.

3) Given such a ruling he must be expected to follow them. Which does not exclude working for a compromise among the parties affected by the rulebreaking. As far as I can tell he has been doing both?

[DemVet]

151. Agreed. MI and FL are Howie's fault.

He's going to look foolish no matter how it is resolved. The repubs played him for a fool...and were correct, unfortunately.

I call for Howard Dean's resignation.

[John Q. Citizen]

16. Get real!

[rodeodance]

74. Past time for Dean to step down. His bias for Obama is not the behavior of a Chair who

is suppose to be be working for all Democrats. he played favortism.

[Justitia]

76. "Reality" and "Whatever is happening in your head" are not the same thing at all. -eom

[L0oniX]

116. LOL ...there's that ignored person again.

[John Q. Citizen]

99. No, he enforced the rules everyone agreed to. If he were playing favorites, and Obama

were his favorite, I'm sure he could do a whole lot more than just enforce the rules that everyone, including Senator Clinton agreed to well in advance of the contest.

The only people in the party who are upset at Howard Dean are the hard core- Clinton supporters. All the non-nonaligned members of the party aren't complaining and name calling.

You can stomp your feet and call people names, but you can't change the rules in the middle of the competition. I'm really sorry that upsets you. You will just have to finally grow up and learn to follow the rules as agreed to. Life doesn't owe you anything, life is what you make of it. Good luck.

[FSogol]

17. Huh? I can't find the "Unrecommend" button.

Dean is an awesome chairman. Obama is benefiting from his 50 state program.

[Justitia]

18. It's not Dean's fault that Clinton is losing. Dean is the best thing to happen to Our Party.

But yeah, Republicans absolutely hate him.

[TBF]

23. The GOP hates him - that's enough for me.

[John Q. Citizen]

32. Yep. When he took office my local freepers all warned me it meant the end of the Democrats.

Then 2006 happened.

They don't say that anymore. Now it's the dead-enders in our party taking up the same meme.

[AllentownJake]

34. Funny

Same GOPers who want Barack Obama..

[John Q. Citizen]

55. No, the freepers are scared shitless of Barack. That's why Rush is raising money for Hillary.

[Jersey Devil]

25. You sound like Hillary's "If I were a Repub" I'd have the nomination locked up

Well, you ain't an Obama supporter so exactly why should Obama supporters listen to your rant about what you would do if you were them?

[JVS]

27. It's not his fault that Hilly wants to break the rules

[AllentownJake]

28. Dean never wrote these rules

Terry Mac did. Dean is only enforcing the rules that were given to him by that lame Clinton lackey.

Your candidate sucks so bad she can't even win when one of her biggest supporters wrote the party rules for her.

Long live Dr. Dean and may he serve for a very long time.

[cali]

30. What nonsense. First of all he's never said what you falsely

attribute to him. Surely someone teaching at the University level should know better than to put words in quotes and wrongly ascribe them to an individual. tut. tut. You get an 'F'.

Secondly, it's merely uninformed to say there's no graceful way out. Of course there is. The graceful way is simply to seat them at the convention.

Thirdly, it was hillfan hero Terry McCauliff who instituted the penalties.

Dean has been the most effective Party Chair in years- something that's widely acknowledged.

And it's absolutely deliciously laugable that you say you'd be pissed at him even if you were an Obama supporter.

:rofl:

[kwenu]

33. If rigidity means clear rules, I want rigidity.

[lojasmo]

36. Dean is doing a great job

Too bad he had to clean up after McAuliffe and the rest of the clintonistas who messed everything up.

[gkhouston]

37. If I were a Clinton supporter, I'd choose an avatar that wasn't a blow-up doll. n/t

[Exilednight]

38. Yeah, winning back Congress with Dean's strategy really sucks. n/t

[JimGinPA]

39. If You Were An Obama Supporter I Could Get Rich Renting Ice Skates In Hell

[MercutioATC]

41. Does anybody else get the feeling that some of these OPs are written by college students

working on a psychology term paper entitled "How Many Ridiculous Comments Will Politically-Active Internet Users Agree With?"?

I find it hard to believe there is anybody with the intelligence to chew gum that would make arguments this ignorant.

[Mooney]

73. Maybe barber college.

[JimGinPA]

132. DUzy

:rofl:

[LisaM]

42. The 50-state strategy worked well for getting House seats

But IMO, that's all it's good for. The DNC is broke right now. No one is donating for congressional and Senate races. Michigan and Florida could easily be lost in the fall. Meanwhile, Dean, who should long be remembered for the absolute implosion of his own campaign, is all but openly supporting Obama, because an Obama victory is the only way he can keep his job.

I called the DNC and gave him my support when he was running for party chair. I thought he deserved it. I regret that now.

[Justitia]

52. What about all the governorships we won? And we held EVERY SINGLE SEAT.

For the first time in the history of the United States, no Republican captured any House, Senate, or Gubernatorial seat previously held by a Democrat!!!!

We completely reversed the Republican Revolution BROUGHT TO US BY BILL CLINTON

Don't let your partisanship blind you to the very real results - unless the Party doesn't mean a damn thing to you beyond the name "Clinton"!

[LisaM]

54. No, you're right about the governorships. I was talking about nationally

But that's a good point.


I'm not saying that there isn't some value - it worked for some things. But it was a mid-year election and you ignore the big states in a presidential election year at your peril.

[Justitia]

60. Are you kidding? I just told you we completely reversed the '94 Republican Revolution

and for the FIRST TIME IN HISTORY no Republican captured any House, Senate, or Gubernatorial seat previously held by a Democrat,

and you STILL want to knock Dean's 50 State Strategy because Hillary is losing?

Seriously, you need to consider whether you have lost ALL PERSPECTIVE in this matter.

[LisaM]

63. No, I'm not entirely knocking it. You aren't paying attention to me.

I think that it had a lot of value in the mid-term elections. But the margin in the House is razor thin, and I think that a presidential election year is a different dynamic.

It's also a fact that the DNC's fundraising is in the tank right now.

[Justitia]

70. I can't believe you are knocking it at all! WTF is wrong w/winning every single seat?

Absolutely nothing!

I'm sorry, if you are so blinded by your misplaced anger as a tangent of blind support of ONE person, that you discredit the work of the entire rest of the party, I can't help you.

The Democratic Party is a helluva lot more than Hillary Clinton.

And NO ONE has been working harder all over the map than Howard Dean.

[LisaM]

82. Then what about DNC fundraising?

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2008/05/02/dnc_fundraising_lags/9881/

The RNC has almost six times as much money right now.

I think you are the angry one.

[Justitia]

85. What about it? Why don't you compare it to same year fundraising in previous presidential yrs?

Not to mention, what those numbers mean is that Democrats are donating to candidates in HISTORIC FIGURES, but not to the REPUBLICAN NOMINEE, and his own party is not filing his coffers.

You can try to twist that around like every other "metric" Hillary tries to twist to her benefit, but I have no idea why you would even THINK to attack the chair in our best year ever because

ONE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE CAN'T HANDLE LOSING.

The Party is much, much more than Hillary Clinton.

The DNC is doing just fine, thankyouverymuch, and it will do even better when the Clintons are humiliated right out of town.

Enjoy the ride on the downward spiral.

[LisaM]

101. Actually, I was responding to the OP

Hillary has raised millions for the DNC over the years.

[Heathen57]

131. So in a presidential election we should

ignore every state but a select few? That has DLC written all over it.

Have you ever wondered why we can't seem to win except in those few states? Perhaps it is because we are ignored by the Democratic party. The candidates can't get any help at all. Our state this year is in contention between going Dem or repub. It went to Obama by a good margin because he made an appearance in the state. Hillary in her royal arrogance, couldn't be bothered. We aren't big enough.

Think about it.

[PassingFair]

62. Please show link confirming the "broke" status of the DNC.

Contrast and compare with the dollars on
hand in the RNC coffers....

[Blue-Jay]

44. Was he the party chair when the rules were adopted?

Seems like he's only enforcing rules that you don't currently care for.

He "sucks" as a party chair Only to half of the party...the half that's not benefiting from his bullheadedness.

[bigwillq]

45. I think he's doing a great job.

The 50-state strategy worked brilliantly in 2006.

Those two states broke the rules. FL and MI were the ones that got this mess started, not Dean.

[Radical Activist]

46. The only problem is that Hillary thinks rules don't apply to her.

Such as the usual rule that a candidate drops out when its clear they're losing in order to help the presumptive nominee.

[bunnies]

48. ah. If you were an Obama supporter...

its fun to imagine isnt it.

If I could shit gold coins I'd be rich.

Ah yes. Playing pretend is fun.

[L0oniX]

49. If Hillary won't follow the rules that she agreed to why should we trust her to...

follow rules if she wins the GE? Just what we need ...another scoff law who trashes our constitution.

[zulchzulu]

51. It's not Dean's fault that some states think they can break rules and then...

...try to get away with it.

I think the only thing I don't like about the primary schedule was how front-loaded it was with Super Tuesday. Other than that, he has done a good job.

As for the Michigan and Florida Democratic party officials that screwed over their voters, they should be voted out of office.

[PassingFair]

64. I am from Michigan and I am MAD AS HELL...

at my state party leaders, Governor and
congressional delegations!

They thought this would be a WIN/WIN for
them, they would get to "go first" AND
front-load the primaries for their friend
Hillary.

Turned out to be a LOSE/LOSE.

I am ACTIVELY asking for their apologies.

[purji]

154. you and me both. n/t

[tkmorris]

59. "I like Clinton, therefore Dean sucks"

There's a reason all the other forums laugh at you GD: P.

[Auntie Bush]

65. I'm from VT and voted for Dean 4X and I agree with you 100%

He lacked the for site and judgment to realize what he was doing and it's outcome. What the heck did he think would happen? I'm very disappointed!
There was no reason he couldn't have fined the party severely rather than punish the innocent voters of FL again.

[cali]

72. I'm from VT and I voted for Dean 5x

and you're wrong. Dean has had great foresight and done a tremendous job. Only hillbots and DLCers don't see that.

[catgirl]

100. Why don't I believe you?

[Auntie Bush]

106. What don't you believe?

Except I guess I might have voted for him 5X...according to C. ...so many times I lost count. Maybe she was counting a Dean write in vote and I voted for Clark. Anyway, I voted for him in ALL his races for Governor. Are you really suggesting I was lying? Nice! Stop projecting!

[Mooney]

66. He's enforcing the rules.

Howard Dean is the best damn thing to happen to the Democratic Party in decades. His 50-state strategy won us back majorities in the house and senate.

Any effort to cast aspersions upon his performance emanates from a conflict of interest.

[PassingFair]

67. Maybe you will luck out and get a TOTAL DLC toady next time!

We did SO WELL with McAufful!

[Hutzpa]

68. Its funny how you get people to

respond to your rhetoric, I'm curious.... whats your motivation? :shrug:

not that I expect a clear answer from you but still, I'm curious.

You're not a shillbot, Democrats....hmmmm its a toss up, I believe

you are someone who gets a kick from seeing your threads get flamed

while in front of your computer sipping wine.

Wine can do that to you sometimes, makes your brain gets fuzzy

hence I think with some of your posts and threads.

[NashVegas]

75. I Disagree. It's Time for People to Grow the Fuck Up

And play by the rules they agreed to when they signed on for the game.

Florida and Michigan legislatures are the ones who need to do the concession-making, NOT the DNC.

[Carrieyazel]

78. Dean's not the one who formulated these atrocious primary delegate rules

that the Party must junk by 2012, or else. Its these rules and proportional representation gone outta control that's caused this mess.

And under Dean's watch:

+38 Dems in the House and the Senate, a majority of Governors, +330 state senators and state house reps, hundreds of local seats gained throughout the nation and a party that is now the majority at all levels below the Presidency, cutting off the minority Repubes at the roots.

He should stay, by all means.

[Va Lefty]

79. Dean has done a great job heading up the DNC

His 50 state strategy is exactly what is needed to make us a National Party again. As for the Clintons, it was/is always about them not the party. The whole triangulation thing was a slap in the face of progressives everywhere. The Clintons didn't care that they cost the Dems the House and the Senate in '94, as long as they were still in power. Bill didn't care that his conduct hurt Gore in '00 as long as he wasn't impeached. Now we see Hillary is willing to do anything to win nomination regardless of how much it hurts the party. We will be better off when we finally close the book on the Clintons!

[last_texas_dem]

84. I wasn't that big on Dean as a Presidential candidate but I think he's done a great job

as DNC chair. On this issue of FL and MI, as far as I can tell, all Dean is doing is enforcing the rules- I don't understand why so many of Clinton's supporters seem to have problems with that.

[Vinca]

87. You have Dean to thank for the 2006 election and the 50 state strategy.

Your candidate could have learned from that tactic.

[mopinko]

88. i am howard dean's special interest.

and barack obama's, too.
maddy, i think you have gone round the bend. there are a handful of hillary supporters that i am saddened to see spouting this kind of crap. you are one of them.
:wtf: maddy?

[Forkboy]

92. Couldn't disagree more, and I suspect you're being dishonest when you say you'd feel the same way.

Either to us or to yourself.

[Avalux]

93. I love Howard Dean. It is irrespective of my support for Obama.

He has done more for the party than milquetoast McAuliffe did all the years he occupied space.

[Greyskye]

94. He's stated that FL & MI will be seated at the convention.

What part of that are you having a tantrum over? :shrug:

[rudy23]

95. I think Hillary's main goal right now is to take down Howard Dean, if she can't win the nom

It would be a nice victory for the Clintons, and maybe a way to stay relevant for a while--maybe even drive the party further apart for her own gain.

[Justitia]

97. The Clintons ALWAYS blame everybody else for their own bad behavior.

It's a pathology they share, and a matter for historical record.

[newmajority]

96. Howard Dean saved this party from DLC Hell

This party was dying a well deserved death, thanks to the DLC sellouts' complicity in PNAC/Patriot Act/Iraq War.

Howard Dean's campaign in 2003-04 was the only thing that saved us from complete extinction.

His 50 state strategy won 2006, and it is winning 2008 for Barack Obama.

I wish to God he had been elected President in 2004, but the DLC slit their own throats when they ambushed him in Iowa.

[karynnj]

102. If you were an Obama supporter, you wouldn't want to turn Democrats against other Democrats

Dean is not perfect, but he did a stellar job in rehabbing the state party's that the insufferable McAuliffe let decay - because that part of the job didn't interest him as much as fund raising - some legal, some not.

I do think that someone more attuned to fighting for consensus might have been better on the negotiations with the states - or even agreeing to the half credit solution the Republicans did. (especially as that does lead to a fair race), but he is still head and shoulders better McAuliffe.

[barack the house]

103. It is more a case of respect the agreement that Hillary signed.

[endarkenment]

104. Oh bullshit. He has remained impartial as he should.

He is also insisting on not changing the rules to alter the outcome of the game, as he should. He has said he will not intervent while there are primaries left and no clear winner, as he should, and he has also made it clear that once the last primary is done, there will be resolution.

[undeterred]

107. Your posts are irrational and inaccurate.

Take a break. :shrug:

[madrchsod]

108. the 50 state strategy has been a utter failure!

by dean refusing to reward florida'` and michigan`s "breaking the rules" of the democratic party he has doomed the party to EVERLASTING HELL...!

DAM YOU HOWARD DEAN----DAM YOU TO HELL!!

[LVjinx]

115. 50 state strategy = good. 48 state strategy = McCain victory in November

[demwing]

156. I'm not sure what you forgot....

the :sarcasm" tag, or your daily medications :)

[Breeze54]

109. Dean Rocks and

the OP is sucking sour pickles... as usual.

But the OP's posts are hilarious! :P

[Exultant Democracy]

111. 2006 n/t

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MonkeyFunk]

121. Is that the new kind of politics?

[Egnever]

123. Did you mistake me for Obama Monkey?

I dont think you are Clinton. But since thats the way her campaign rolls I guess it shouldnt suprise me that would be your first instinct.

[MonkeyFunk]

135. No, I don't think you're Obama

but I'm curious about why so many of his supporters are nasty little fuckwits when he's such a nice guy.

[Egnever]

157. its a big tent

welcome to the dem party.

[JVS]

126. Yes. Welcome to the future!

[merh]

113. OMG - Dean is enforcing the rules that Hillary agreed to abide by.

What a horrible, horrible man :sarcasm:

[LVjinx]

117. These rules are against the rules - early states get 50% delegates in the REAL rules

[dbmk]

122. No they are not.

5. Nothing in the preceding subsections of this rule shall be construed to prevent the
DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee from imposing additional sanctions,
including, without limitation, those specified in subsection (6) of this section C.,
against a state party and against the delegation from the state which is subject to
the provisions of any of subsections (1) through (3) of this section C., including,
without limitation, establishing a committee to propose and implement a process
which will result in the selection of a delegation from the affected state which
shall (i) be broadly representative, (ii) reflect the state’s division of presidential
preference and uncommitted status and (iii) involve as broad participation as is
practicable under the circumstances.

[Quixote1818]

118. You would have worked well in the Bush Administration. They don't care about rules either. nt

[gort]

120. Yeah that 50 state strategy was such a dumb fuck move

About as dumb as a frog with teeth.

[Gore1FL]

125. What role specifically did Dean play?

Did he twist everyones arm in voting the way they did???

You can be pissed, but at least understand the process and who you should really be pissed at.

He didn't demand his authority be respected, he followed the outcome of the committee vote.

facts are facts. Math is math. rules are rules.

[chascarrillo]

127. Dean is single-handedly responsible for us having control of the House and Senate. That doesn't suck

Sorry.

[dave29]

128. Bill Clinton on Howard Dean, 1997

"I'd also like to say that whatever it is that Howard Dean knows, or whatever it is that he eats for breakfast every morning, if I could give it to every other Democratic office holder and would-be office holder, we would immediately become the majority in the Congress and we would have about 35 governors. I have to tell you, I think a big part of it is just producing for people, actually doing what you say you're going to do at election time."

[RBInMaine]

129. You are full of it. He's a great chair, 50 state strategy, and jams it to the RePukes all the time.

Who would you rather have, McAuliffe. Dean has balls, and it's awesome.

[dorktv]

130. I think Howard Dean has done more for this party then has been done for a long time.

My issues about the presidential race have nothing to do with him. Sorry Maddy but you are wrong on this.

[RBInMaine]

133. SO who do you want, that lame-ass McAuliffe? Now HE sucked !

[OmahaBlueDog]

138. Look how many close congressional and senate races we lost under McAuliffe

He may have been a helluva fundraiser, but we were a rudderless ship. Dean has made mistakes, but on balance has done a great job.

[wileedog]

134. So when two states decide to buck the entire system, what would you have done?

[OmahaBlueDog]

137. I'd have gone with the decisions of the state legislatures and counted the votes

I sympathize with the desires of Florida and Michigan to move up -- in large part because I resent the roles Iowa and New Hampshire play in the current process. The DNC should have shown more respect to those states.

Having said all of that, Dean is a world better than Terry "I can't find a close race I can't lose" McCauliffe. Terry may be a noce guy, but he was a crappy party leader.

[Hippo_Tron]

142. Florida and Michigan screwed us at the 11th hour

I can understand for the desire to change Iowa and New Hampshire's favorite status. That's why Dean started working in 2005 to come up with a plan. It resulted in states being allowed to apply to receive early status. South Carolina and Nevada were chosen for their African American and Hispanic populations.

Now, here's the thing. If Florida and Michigan thought this plan was bogus they should have objected in 2005. I'm sure they could have gotten a dozen or more other states on board with them to demand that Dean come up with a better process. Instead they moved their dates up in 2007 when everything had already been decided.

You can't allow states to just change their primary dates to whenever the hell they want just because they feel like it. It will result in utter chaos. If states had a problem with the system the time to take action was 2005, not 2007.

[OmahaBlueDog]

143. If the primaries were run and paid for by the state parties, I'd agree

But the states run the elections. It's their money. It's their laws.

In the case of Florida, a Republican legislature moved the primary date; why should Florida Democrats be penalized for an action taken by a legislature they don't support?

And I don't think the early status path was the way to go. The DNC should have adapted to the wills of the state legislatures. As it stands now, neither eventual candidacy will be considered entirely legitimate by all of the party.

[Hippo_Tron]

148. Your proposal is absurd

You are suggesting that the DNC bend to the will of 50 different state legislatures all acting in their own interests and not the interests of the Democratic Party. Nobody is holding a gun to the state legislatures' heads and saying that they even have to pay for primaries or caucuses at all. They just don't get any say in who the party's nominee is if they don't have them and don't have them within the party's rules.

Nobody has any constitutional or even legal right to participate in the process of determining the Democratic Party's nominee. If the DNC agreed that it would be chosen by picking a name out of a hat, then that would be perfectly legal. The Democratic Party has the current system that it does because it is, while admittedly flawed, more fair and democratic than any other system that has been used in the past.

[OmahaBlueDog]

153. Then the DNC should do away with primaries and just hold caucuses that they sponsor

"Nobody has any constitutional or even legal right to participate in the process of determining the Democratic Party's nominee. If the DNC agreed that it would be chosen by picking a name out of a hat, then that would be perfectly legal. The Democratic Party has the current system that it does because it is, while admittedly flawed, more fair and democratic than any other system that has been used in the past." On this, you and I have little disagreement.

"You are suggesting that the DNC bend to the will of 50 different state legislatures all acting in their own interests and not the interests of the Democratic Party." On this, we are 180 apart. States make laws and pay for elections. The parties provide candidates, agree on core policy, and bring economies of scale to campaigning. If a party wants to run a slate in a given state, they need to have their candidates ready to go on the day the state appoints. If a party doesn't like the day, time, or methodology the states have chosen, the party should either go rent halls and pay for caucuses, or simply concede the state to their opponents (which is likely what we have done this time). You are suggesting that 50 state legislatures should bow to party bosses chosen outside their state; sorry, it's the other way around.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

140. Dean has done more for the party

than most do their entire career. His 50 state strategy is genius and will continue to get us the stronghold in Congress. You obviously are not paying attention.

[Maribelle]

150. Oops. Shouldn't you have said his 48 state strategy?

And don't forget - one Democrat in Florida laughed and Dean and his crew decided to up the 50% penalty against millions of Democrats to 100%- - and based this silencing of millions of voices on the simple fact that they were totally convinced that the one laugh indicated an insincerity at attempting to override a bill signed into law by a three months prior.

This was a colossal political blunder of massive proportions that should be reason enough to remove Dean, a political blunder which will have extremely negative consequences on Floridians for perhaps a decade, as Republicans in Florida laugh their way to even more control of Floridians' money, dismantling education brick by brick, attempting to thwart labor unions, neglecting the infrastructure, polluting the everglades, employing every legal means possible to fatten their bank accounts while hard working Floridians struggle to make ends meet. Who cares? Only Hillary and her supporters, it seems. All others, Democrats and Republicans, appear to just want to mock and jeer Floridians. Surely too many Obama supporters appear to simply want to jeer. Sad, that.

[DemVet]

152. LOL.

[casus belli]

141. Record Democratic turnout nationally, record voter registration - yeah I see your point. Not. n/t

[CTLawGuy]

144. they broke the rules

willfully and knowingly, and knowing the consequences.

I hope no delegate from MI or FL sees the inside of that hall unless they hold a conforming primary between now and the convention.

I think the disenfranchised voters should tell the state party people what they think of their game-playing.

[WA98070]

146. Maybe, maybe not; let's see how the fifty state strategy works out. That's more important...

than Fla and MI as they will be seated in the end.

It's not his fault Hillary wants to change the rules.

[saltpoint]

147. Howard Dean is an outstanding Chair.

[demwing]

155. Its Maddy Math!

I can figure out the truth on most things, using a simple mathematical principle called the Maddy Factor.

It's a simple equation: let M = "Whatever Maddy McCall Says" and T = "The Truth".

Then, in all cases, T=(M/-1), or, simplified T=(-M).

Let me demonstrate if Maddy says "Howard Dean is a horrible party chair", we apply the formula T=(M/-1), and we learn that the Truth is the opposite of what Maddy says (Remember: T=(-M), right?) so the Truth (T) must be that "Howard Dean is a WONDERFUL party chair."

It's the Maddy Factor! Apply it liberally folks :)