FACTS PLEASE: So is the Kantor tape doctored or not?

[rucky]

If you say yes, prove it. hint: "he said so" is not proof.

If you say no, counter the proofs.

I really don't want to start a flame war, I just want some reliable facts before I hop in, here.

[leftofcool]

1. Well the director of the original documentary 'War Room"

says it was doctored as well as an audio expert. That enough for you? If not, you can try their lawyers and ask for more.

[rucky]

8. I know nothing.

edit: OK, I think I found a decent thread on all this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5785328&mesg_id=5785328

[Mezzo]

Yes. this is a doctored version of the DVD "The War Room" where they first said

that a Clinton staffer called people from Indiana "white niggers" and then called them "shit". However, if you ACTUALLY HAVE the DVD, and you ACTUALLY listen to it, it is bullshit. AND A SMEAR.

[Mezzo]

18. self delete. My post posted twice. sorry.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

9. Those are gonna be some busy lawyers.

What with having to sue the entire Internetz and all.

But hey, the audio on my laptop isn't good enough for me to determine what was said so I'm going to take Kantor at his word that he didn't call Indiana voters "shit" and "white n****rs".

I mean, as far as I know.

:rofl:

[leftynyc]

25. They only need the person who

uploaded it.

[rateyes]

14. He later said that the subtitles could have been incorrect while

at the same time the audio not doctored.

[Blue_Roses]

52. YOU keep saying "audio expert"...

who the fuck is that??:eyes: You've been saying this since two seconds after it was reported.

[Joe the Revelator]

2. Its not doctored....as far as we know

What he's saying is up for debate.

[techtrainer]

6. Adding sub-titles and changing the sound is doctoring!

[DearAbby]

16. Looping 30 second sound bites out of context is doctoring

playing them over and over again....I assume you were outraged then too? Shall I check?

[leftynyc]

28. That is completely different and you know it

What they did to Rev Wright may be disgusting but they didn't put any words in his mouth. They put the words "white n***gers" into Cantor's mouth. Not the same thing at all.

[DearAbby]

42. Blaming Clinton or Obama by what other people say

is disgusting. Obama never said or did anything to make you believe that his views were the same as Wright's, same can be said of Kantor be applied to Clinton...Smear by proxy isn't fun or fair.

[leftynyc]

44. That I agree with

but Rev Wright's words weren't put into his mouth by someone else. That's completely different that using real quotes out of context (both hurtful but very different).

[leftynyc]

45. I never said it didn't suck

But nobody put words into Rev Wrights mouth. He was quoted out of context and while very hurtful, it's not the same. Somebody doctored what Kantor said and made it seem as if he spoke the words "white n***ger".

[DearAbby]

46. Well please Link me to the original video

so I may decide for myself. regardless, It has nothing to do with Clinton, just as Wright had nothing to do with Obama. Stupid wedge issues to distract us with what is really important. Stupid "Got cha" games.

[leftynyc]

49. I agree with you on that

Complex thinking is beyond the media at this point. The original video would be the movie itself. But here's a link to a comment by the director who claims it was doctored.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5781161


And now I'm off for a fun filled weekend. Hope you have the same.

[DearAbby]

50. Take care....see you back on Monday

SUNSCREEN ,,,momma says

[rucky]

58. Common sense is ruining all of our fun.

:yourock:

[AZ Criminal JD]

33. How do you know? Did you upload it?

[WillyT]

3. It's Definitely Edited, Doctored... I Don't Know...

:shrug:

[izzybeans]

4. It was doctored as in it is was freeze framed and had text inserted into it.

The audio is the same.

[sandnsea]

5. Part yes, part no

I think the "white n*****" was completely doctored. What he said about Indiana being shit, or shitting in the White House, not doctored, just open for interpretation.

[meow mix]

7. why he has to whipser his slurs if they were not?

and why the strange body language.

and the word SHIT is clear.

[Blue_Roses]

54. exactly...why is he whispering if he didn't say a slur...

:eyes:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

10. Both.

"Doctored" You tube.

Undoctored film.

The exact words from the film are in dispute. (forget the YT video)

[DearAbby]

11. I dont believe it is doctored...

poor sound quality, perception/ interpretation, what the individual hearing it, think was said. It being sliced can easily be proven...the original video would have been up on YOUTUBE almost immediately...I dont believe it was doctored.

[Enrique]

17. the director is sure it was doctored

[rucky]

24. doctored, how?

voice modification? distortion? subtitles? simple editing is doctoring. that doesn't help.

[Enrique]

27. I don't know

Pennebaker said it was altered from the real version.

[DearAbby]

26. Maybe the Director is Biased

In The Washington Post's review of the film in 1993, critic Desson Howe referred to "a Mickey Kantor comment about the people of Indiana (when it looks as though Clinton's ahead in Dan Quayle's state)."

And a 1995 story in the Sydney Morning Herald said that "As for the good folk of Indiana, they are still recovering from the 1993 documentary War Room, which revealed the grim truth behind the Clinton election campaign. It showed Mr Kantor bursting in on election night to tell other campaign staffers that incredibly, Mr Clinton was doing well even in Republican Indiana. 'And those people are s---!' he declared breathlessly."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/05/the-mystery-of.html

Also note This Director is now in the process of producing another WAR ROOM +15 yrs later. Following the CLINTON Campaign as basis for his new project...he is also a supporter.

[Enrique]

29. that's not the part that was doctored

the racial slur part was doctored.

[DearAbby]

36. I don't believe any of it was doctored....just poor quality

that leaves it to the interpretation of those who hear it. The Sub-titles are this person's personal interpretation.

[DearAbby]

37. Glad you don't think being called shit matters

:shrug: just the racial slur part.

[Enrique]

39. I have nothing against you, DearAbby

please review our exchange and I think you'll agree you're being unfair to me.

[DearAbby]

43. Perhaps so Enrique...I am leaving this to

the benefit of the doubt...I don't believe Clinton would stand for this or should be blamed. I believe this entire controversy being orchestrated by the GOP/PNAC, they have the most to gain, and lose come November.

[rucky]

23. I guess it's up to the media and the attorneys, now. n/t

[4_Legs_Good]

12. Can't someone just get the DVD of the movie and turn the volume up and figure it out?

I think I'm missing something, but why are we relying on a YouTube clip when the movie has to be on every DUer's shelf!

I wish I was home!

David

[mkultra]

13. i watched the original version without subs

To me, he did call the hoosiers shit but he second statement was unintelligible and doesnt really seem to fit the "white nigger" application.

The original producer said that the freeze and subtitles where added. The person who created the video has claimed that he didn't alter the audio but enhanced it.

so who knows.

[DJ13]

15. There are two distinctly different videos

One doctored (the N****r one), and one not doctored (the sh*t one).

In my opinion the Clinton camp launched the doctored version to be able to try and label both as a fraud to blunt the impact of a long time Clinton confidant calling Indiana sh*t.

[rucky]

20. Got it. Brown word, yes. N-word, no.

I think this'll backfire like the Dan Rather setup. A little lie trumps truth.

[Barack_America]

30. Actually, it's "N-word, maybe".

I've listened to the original footage numerous times and I clearly hear it. Is that video also doctored? I don't know.

FWIW, the editor of the pulled "doctored" video claims that he enhanced the audio, not doctored it. And, to be honest, the audio on that video did sound louder than, but otherwise identical to the audio on this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_wKOgMNs0U (go to about 4:40)

The video and sound was out of sync on the doctored video, however, likely due to breaking up the footage to insert graphics explaining Kantor's relationship to the campaign.

Does this help?

[rucky]

34. I stand corrected.

This'll still play out like Rathergate, though. The public (or media) will not accept a lesson in video compression and enhancement before making a judgement.

[nsd]

19. C'mon. Get off this already. No more threads about this garbage. /nt

[zanne]

68. Not gonna happen. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. The Guy That Put It On YouTube Pulled It

He's probably crapping himself that he going to be sued...

Ha ha ha...

[shaniqua6392]

59. Kantor already said he will find the best libel attorneys

and sue the crap out of whoever put this on the internet. I definitely believe that he is going to do it.

[PBS Poll-435]

22. .

[rucky]

31. I think I'm going to be Switzerland on this one.

with all the "evidence" that technology puts out there nowadays, it almost makes it easier to cover things up. We'll never know. This will be a he said/she said until the courts say different.

[wiggs]

32. Good opportunity to bring up Fox news doctoring of Michelle Obama's

quote about patriotism. Unbelievable, shameless, irresponsible doctoring by a media outlet. Sure disappeared fast after it was shown they did it.

[backscatter712]

35. I'm no longer talking about it.

Yeah, it was faked, probably an Operation Chaos/Limbaugh/Rove dirty trick designed primarily to slime Obama, but also to hit the entire Democratic Party.

This is the last I'll say about it. Yes, Hill-shills, you may laugh at my expense.

[rucky]

40. Better comparison is Rathergate

IMHO.

Ok, now I'm done, too.

[Jed Dilligan]

38. I couldn't hear any difference between the versions

[JuniperLea]

41. You're looking for truth in GD:P????

:rofl:

[berni_mccoy]

47. NOT DOCTORED: YOUTUBE PUT THE VIDEO BACK UP (LINK)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5786951&mesg_id=5786951

[mystieus]

56. True.

[anigbrowl]

62. That means NOTHING.

[Jersey Devil]

48. As Hillary would say, "Let the voters decide"

Just like Wright

[rucky]

51. Truth, Schmooth

how uncouth!

[EFerrari]

53. I don't care. It's distracting bs. n/t

[suston96]

55. Oh goodie, I get to post it again.......The director of the original movie/documentary has spoken:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0508/Pennebaker_Clip_Doctored.html

May 02, 2008

Pennebaker: Clip Doctored

I just spoke to D.A. Pennebaker, the director of "The War Room," who said his film had been doctored to produce a widely-viewed YouTube clip.

In a clip from his film on the 1992 Clinton campaign, posted to YouTube today, Clinton advisor Mickey Kantor is -- according to subtitles -- seen referring to Indiana residents with an expletive and to his colleague George Stephanopolous with a racial slur.

"He does not say that. He does not say that," said Pennebaker, after viewing the clip.

He said the initial expletive referred to the anticipated reaction in the Bush White House to the fact that Ross Perot's polling numbers were holding strong.

"What he says is he’s surprised Perot’s numbers are holding," said Pennebaker in a brief phone interview. "He says they must be shi**ing in the White House."

The second expletive, he said, appeared to have been entirely fabricated, with new audio dubbed onto the original movie.

One more thing, please keep this gift that keeps on giving alive, until Obama has to stutter and stammer explanations to the press. Keep it going, please?

[gcomeau]

57. Not doctored, definitely editted.

The consensus seems to be at this point that there was no doctoring.

There was definitely discussion of other state polling that was cut but after having seen that section it doesn't contribute or change anything about the central issue, so that's irrelevant. It was fairly clearly done for time.

The audio also seems to have been enhanced/amplified/whatever...

After listening to it many, many times my final call is "I don't know what the hell he said". At first impression it definitely appeared he was saying people in Indiana were "sh*t*" and the final whispered line seemed to contain the term we all know. However after straining and rerunning and listening to multiple different versions I've come to the conclusion that the whispered section, even on the 'enhanced' versions, is too damn faint and unclear to make out what he's really saying definitively without too much risk that your mind is filling in blanks for you. And after matching the sounds/syllables I can halfway make out to what his defenders say he was saying ("How would you like to be in the white house now") I can see that as plausible. That being the case, benefit of the doubt is extended. No way will I for one continue to try to push this if I've got plausible doubt about it's accuracy, it would be a great injustice to the man if it turned out to be wrong. (Though I still question why he would have to furtively whisper that sentence... I have a great deal of difficulty making sense out of that part.)

As for the first part of the statement, the "those people are sh*t" remark... I have been unable to make out an "ing" after it. It is possible it's there, but if it is he very abruptly cut his speaking volume mid-word. A case could be made he did that because he abruptly tried to reign himself in from a declaration of profanity.

So, I maintain my suspicions... but lacking new evidence I'm for one letting this one drop.

[anigbrowl]

63. Yes doctored. I am looking it at on my screen right now - see below.

It's screamingly obvious once you look at a spectrogram of the audio.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

60. The bombshell "enhanced audio" version with the racial slur was a blatant fabrication

Obviously, the original version from the documentary where Kantor throws out an s-bomb was real, but the context of the s-bomb is unclear.

Although, if you place it in greater context, the idea that the s-bomb was an insult against Indianans is pretty ludicrious. Think about it, Kantor is talking about positive poll numbers favorable to the Clinton campaign, including those from Indiana. According to some, he then throws a gratitious and out of the blue insult against Indianans ("Those people are s__t"), and then goes right back to talking about poll numbers.

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. My best guess is that the "Those people are s---ting themselves in the White House" is an infinitely more plausible interpretation.

So, in other words, enhanced video with the slurs was fake, the original video was real but didn't contain any real evidence Kantor insulted people from Indiana.

A non-story.

[anigbrowl]

61. YES, IT IS, AND I HAVE PROOF

First, my credentials: I am a professional audio engineer who works in film and TV. I make my living by recording sound on location and editing it in the studio. My 'everyday' microphone is a Schoeps CMIT 5U, which you can pick up for a mere $2000 or so. My total equipment setup is worth close to $20k - I say this not to impress you with my spending ability, but to point out that I am heavily invested in this profession (or I would have a lot more in the bank...).

I downloaded a clip which another member kindly uploaded. Yeah, I hear the offending n-word remarks. Eeeew. But what does that mean? NOTHING. It's easy to edit that stuff in, and very few people are actually as good at lip reading as they would like to believe. I know this because I have faked dialog and changed it in the editing room many many times when the original take did not work for some reason.

Furthermore, the people jumping up and down and insisting that they know what they saw and heard are deluded. None of them seem to have taken on board the fact that video on youtube runs at a different frame rate in order to minimize bandwidth. The original video for this film runs at 29.97 frames per second (I know that without having access to it because it's a SMPTE standard which has governed the manufacture of video cameras since the early days of TV). Youtube videos are generally squeezed down to between 15 and 20 FPS, but nobody thought of that before deciding that they were skilled in forensic audio analysis.

Well, none of this tells us whether it was doctored or not. But what does tell us is taking the audio into an editor and viewing it as a spectrogram. This is what a spectrogram looks like:



The graph on the bottom shows you the audio in different frequency bands. From this we can deduce things about the provenance of the audio, including whether it has been modified. I am using a nicer spectrogram, from Adobe Audition 3, which allows me to zoom in on different parts of the audio and so forth.

In the audio I downloaded, there are two key characteristics. One is that the frequencies are rolled off above 20Khz. This was almost done by a low-pass filter in the recording mechanism of the camera, which is a standard part of the design. Secondly, there is a hole centered around 11Khz, above which the fequency spectrum is mirrored. The mirroring is due to a phenomenon called aliasing which occurs following certain signal processing operations applied to digital audio. The most likely explanation is that the camera was set to record audio in relatively low quality, topping out around 11KHz. Again, this is a standard thing on video cameras because it means you can squeeze two or four tracks of digital audio recording into a tape instead of just one or two. It's inadequate for a Hollywood movie, but quite OK for a documentary. Most video cameras have an option to switch between full and limited audio sample rates, and 11KHz is quite adequate for documentary sound pickup.

So, I know just from looking at the spectrum how this sound was recorded and I know that it is consistent with in-camera audio recorded at a low sample rate.

BUT when I look at the section where the whispered words 'like to be a white nigger' are heard, it's different. I can see spectral information extending upward in a smooth line all the way up to 22.5 KHz every time there is a plosive transient (go look up what those words mean). This is completely inconsistent with the rest of the audio on the recording, and shows that that segment has not been through the same low-pass filter as the rest of the recorded audio - ergo, it was dubbed.

I would be perfectly comfortable going into court and demonstrating step by step how such a recording could be assembled and still sound real - but the spectral information in the recording makes it abundantly clear that other audio has been dubbed on top, just as there are clued for the experienced eye when looking at a picture that has been modified in Photoshop.

It is actually possible to edit out this spectral information, but few sound editing packages offer this kind of functionality (ie applying edits to only a partion of the frequency spectrum). Mine does; if I had edited this, I could certainly have removed the offending 'fingerprints'. But whoever put the original thing together either did not have access to or did not use the spectral display, and thus left proof of their handiwork all over the file. Ooops.

Bottom line: the phrase 'white nigger' is FAKE and was added to the original recording.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

64. I'll bite.

What about "shit" or "shitting?"

[anigbrowl]

74. Don't know, didn't think about it.

I didn't analyse that part, just the bit with the 'white niggers' phrase. That's the 'really offensive' bit IMHO.

For all I know, he could have been talking about the pollsters or the Bush team - though he does mention the white house, so I'm inclined to think the latter. Personally, I never had the impression he was referring to voters and I don't care either way. 'They' could mean anything from the voting public to the state campaign team to the pollsters to the Bush41 people.

[Upton]

65. self delete

[Upton]

66. What about the reference to the people of Indiana?

you didn't address that

[anigbrowl]

75. Be more specific, please.

[Upton]

79. This

Kantor: Look at Indiana, 42-40. It doesn't matter if we win, those people are shit(ing?).

[anigbrowl]

83. I have no idea/ Those people' might refer to many groups, not just voters.

Personally I took it to mean the people who had produced the data on the sheet of paper he was waving around (assuming it was polling data or suchlike). I really don't know, and there's no way to know what the remark referred to.

[zanne]

67. In other words, he didn't say those things no matter what, right?

[anigbrowl]

76. Correct. He did not use the racial epithet. I am 100% sure of this.

[ozone_man]

69. I'd like to see a comparison to the original

time and frequency spectrums. The waveforms should show enough similarity in this segment to tell if they are the same words.

Also, "doctoring" may just be low pass filtering to reduce noise and amplification to make it more audible.

[anigbrowl]

77. Please see the visual example below

I think this will make it more clear. I can't compare with the original because I don't have copy of the movie on hand.

[ozone_man]

81. Shouldn't you be looking at the original?

Instead of something that is picked up off You Tube, you should look at the original audio stream. I understand aliasing, since I'm an EE, but would like to see the original before making a judgment.

[anigbrowl]

82. I don't have a copy of the original.

I'm just saying that that the racial epithet, as heard in the youtube video, was added in an editing package. When that occurred, I can't say.

[rucky]

70. thank you

:yourock:

now I suppose it's just a matter of breaking out the Jiffy Pop and watching this play out.

[anigbrowl]

71. Here is visual proof (large image)

[anigbrowl]

78. I am going to put this in its own thread with the pic. Please discuss there

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5789016&mesg_id=5789016

[cbayer]

72. Wow, did you get lost on the way to a place where reasonable people go? nt.

[JanErikFl]

73. Shut the Fuck up Obama maniac!! Official Transcript: Kantor Never Impugned Hoosiers

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/05/official-transc.html

Forgoing for a moment the dirty trick of the doctored clip from “The War Room,” which falsely had Mickey Kantor using a racial slur, the filmmaker behind the documentary has posted the clip on his Web site to clarify that other point of confusion -- what Kantor was referring to when he cursed. (An apparent source of confusion since the movie came out and some newspaper writers thought he was cursing Indianans. See previous post for that.)

Filmmakers Chris Hegedus and D A Pennebaker write: "We would like to respond to some erroneous statements made today about our film, THE WAR ROOM. These statements alleged certain remarks to Mickey Kantor that simply are not true. The transcript of the scene in question confirms this."

The official transcript:

GEORGE AND CARVILLE: Indiana, we're ahead.

JACQUELINE: Indiana!

GEORGE: Kentucky.

CARVILLE: Kentucky is five. Michigan is eleven, New York's done.

GEORGE: Holy s---, we're pulling away in Ohio.

CARVILLE: Oklahoma we're up.

GEORGE: Tied in Texas.

CARVILLE: Tied in Texas. It looks good. Now let's just say that. I like the text here.

GEORGE: Can you beep Wendy please? Looks pretty good. Looks pretty good.

MICKEY KANTOR: Look at Indiana. Wait, wait. Look at Indiana. Forty-two, forty. It doesn't matter if we win. Those people are s----ing (oh, excuse me) in the White House. How would you like to be... Look at Texas, go down to Texas.

CARVILLE: Even.

MICKEY: Yeah. Thirty-nine, thirty-nine.

CARVILLE: Perot's kind of holding, isn't he?

GEORGE: He held.

MICKEY: Yeah, he held. His numbers held. I'm sort of surprised, frankly.

***

So Kantor was NOT insulting Hoosiers, he was experiencing a moment of schadenfreude about the Bush (Sr.) White House.

Check it out HERE.

Now back to that other question -- who did the fake clip with Kantor saying the N word?!

It's the definition of a dirty trick -- and from what I can tell all the YouTube links have disappeared. Fingerprints gone.

[Patsy Stone]

80. STFU?

Is that how people communicate in Norway when they just meet somebody?

[JVS]

84. It's the scandinavian charm, just like here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blebM70Y1Sg

[Patsy Stone]

89. You there,

with the stare of a goat. LOL

They should make that into a musical.

Why do you suppose there's so much concern from someone so far away about something so small and absurd?

[JVS]

91. Because Obama has promised to obliterate Norway and steal their oil.

The new slogan is "Nuke their ass and steal their gas: it's not just for brown people anymore."

[Binka]

86. How Do You Say ***hole In Swedish?

Norwegian.

[demwing]

87. Your "Official Transcript" GLOSSES Over The Part In Question!

MICKEY KANTOR: Look at Indiana. Wait, wait. Look at Indiana. Forty-two, forty. It doesn't matter if we win. Those people are s----ing (oh, excuse me) in the White House. How would you like to be... Look at Texas, go down to Texas.

What is being said during that pause in your transcript?

How would you like to be...

How would Stephanopolis like to be WHAT?

Thats the WHOLE question!

Some people hear that as "How would you like to be a worthless white n!&&3r". Other people hear it as "How would you like to be in the White House"

Some people don't hear anything at all.

Before you insult people, try to listen and understand.

[rucky]

88. And a big welcome to DU to you, too.

and the Vikings bite, BTW.

[frickaline]

85. I believe everything that was ever posted on YouTube !!11!!!1!shiftone!

Do you really need any more info here than: this was posted 2 days before this pivotal Indiana election, with content about Indiana, anonymously?
Seriously, you guys are giving this random post far too much credit.

[rucky]

90. My butt was doctored, BTW

just in case you run across that one.

[frickaline]

92. nooOooOoOooOoooooooooooOo

will the lies never end?

*afk crying*