If Hillary steals the nomination, McCain wins -- do we really want that? n/t

[stevietheman]

n/t

[JuniperLea]

1. Stop the bullshit

She can't "steal" anything... if the SD's want to vote for her, it's their right and it is within the law. If you want to change that, you should start now so you have a chance to make the change happen before the next election. Until then, your choice of words is completely manipulative and erroneous.

[stevietheman]

2. Nope, it would be THEFT. n/t

n/t

[JuniperLea]

9. Bullshit... how is it theft when it's well within the law? eom

[galaxy21]

6. Regardless of whether it is technically stealing, Obama fans would see it that way

How will she persude his voters to go for her? They'll find her repulsive. She can't win anyway.

[galaxy21]

7. Does anyone want to explain how a democrat can win without black support

And if she does take/steal the nomination, that is what we're faced with. Mcain knows this, and is now cosying up to AAs.

[JuniperLea]

14. That's total bullshit

Racist and bullshit. Obama doesn't have ALL black people in his pocket.

Your gripe would be with the super delegates, not Clinton anyway. It's fully within the law for the SD's to choose whomever they want... they have all the power... if you want to change that, by all means go for it. Maybe if you start now things will change before the next election. Saying it's stealing is bullshit, a lie, a damned lie... and no matter how many times you repeat a lie, it's not going to make it truth.

[galaxy21]

16. Well, 90%

And that's not just for him. A lot of it is anger with Hillary over her recent tactics (dismissing him as the black candidate, the Muslim stuff, 'as far as I know'..etc)

[oasis]

26. Hillary knows how to win with or without them. (eom)

[eridani]

28. That's why so many of her high roller donors are deserting her? n/t

[aquarius dawning]

30. She hasn't stolen and isn't steling anything from Barack Obama.

She has fought a hard campaign against an exceptional adversary but at no time has she operated outside of the boundaries of what is fair and/or legal. If black folks want to deny this reality and abstain or vote for McCain, that's entirely their affair. If we have to endure 4 or 8 years of John McCain because of it, that's just the way it will have to be. fact of the matter is, there are just as many if not more Hillary supporters who are fully comfortable with John McCain s president. As such, we clearly have a unity problem. In the end, I think Hillary's ability to win in the battleground states and will see us through. I think she'll take Arkanasas too which gives us one southern state. That will be a big deal when the time comes.

[JuniperLea]

11. So, you're saying that Obama fans are delusional...

They don't see the facts as they are, and they are so full of shit they wouldn't even vote for the only Democrat on the ticket should Hillary by some chance win this thing?

You aren't painting a very nice picture. Those people are seriously fucked up in the head if this is really how it is!

How disgusting.

[galaxy21]

13. Yes, actually

The repulsion of Hillary having appeared to steal it, and using race baiting tactics to do it, will far outweigh that of voting for a republican (especially Mccain, who rightly or wrongly, is seen as basically a good man who's suffered for his country).

Or maybe they won;t vote for mccain, they'll just stay and home.



You seem to assume people would vote for OJ Simpson if he had a D beside his name.

[JuniperLea]

15. Welcome to ignore

Life is too short for delusional bullshit.

[JuniperLea]

18. Ahhh... smells better in here already... eom

[galaxy21]

20. I love how you didn't answer any of my arguments and just freaked out

[Texas Hill Country]

17. exactly... k&r subthread

[RiverStone]

27. Just because it's legal, does not make it right

Perception = 90% of reality.

Rules aside, if the SuperD's pull off a coup - it would split the party in unprecedented ways. Remember, in the 30 years we have had SuperD's, they have NEVER over turned the will of the pledged D's.

Where we have our major disagreement of course, is I see it as not only a deal breaker for the GE, but our majority on The Hill. If millions walk away from the party in disgust, all Dems down ticket will suffer.

I presume you see this scenerio as one we can heal from and move on.

On that point our "perceptions" are vastly different.

[JuniperLea]

32. I think the real point is...

It's too late to change the law in this election. We can't do the GOP/BushCo signing statement thing and ignore the law just because a lot of people don't see it as fair. There is a legal process for changing laws, and we can't afford to ignore that.

[elocs]

3. Your post contains 2 possibly false premises or assumptions (in just 12 words):

1: That if Hillary gets the nomination she will have stolen it. True, there will be many young people and black people who may well look at it that way, but that does not make it true.

2: That Clinton loses to McCain. There is absolutely no way to know that so many months from the general election.

[The_Counsel]

5. Allow Me To Help Out Here...

1: You are correct that the rules say the superdelegates can vote however they want. They can even CHANGE their vote before and even AT the convention. But perception IS everything. If Hillary gets the nomination despite being behind in contests won, pledged delegates and even popular vote, she WILL be seen as having stolen it. She will be no different than George W. Bush in 2000. It is what is is...

2: Bingo! And BTW, this argument can be applied to either a Clinton nomination OR an Obama one. Why CAN'T Obama be competitive in states like CO, VA, MO, OH and TX? Who says he can't carry CA, NY, PA and MA in ther general just because he didn't win primaries there? That's why they campaign. Same goes for Hillary.

[JuniperLea]

19. On number 1...

That's not very nice... you are saying that the perception of some is very flawed... so flawed they can't see the truth right up in their faces... and we are supposed to support that? I call bullshit.

[The_Counsel]

22. Want Proof That Perception Is Everything?

Okay ... how the hell did George W. Bush get elected twice?

Sure you and I probably knew he was going to be a disaster, but at least 48% of the electorate actually perceived him as "good for the country." Both times.

Perception IS everything. Just because you don't want to see it doesn't mean it ain't there.

And closing your eyes doesn't change it either. Just sayin'...

[JuniperLea]

24. I'm the first one to say perception is everything

I make my living with perception. What I'm saying is we shouldn't just throw up our hands and say, well, that's just how it is, and let ignorance rule.

Bullshit... Bush is in office because the SCOTUS stopped counting and placed him in office.

You seem to be the one who is closing their eyes... I'm trying to stick with reality, which isn't always perceived. I'm trying to say don't give in to the bullshit.

[The_Counsel]

25. I'll Try This Again...

"I make my living with perception. What I'm saying is we shouldn't just throw up our hands and say, well, that's just how it is, and let ignorance rule."

If you're saying "life isn't fair, but that doesn't mean it SHOULDN'T be," then I'll agree with you there. But what would you propose we do if the supers break 4:1 for Hillary and the Dems in turn lose the support of Black and young voters en masse? BTW, I say 4:1 because that's really what it would take for Hillary to get the nomination. Even 3:1 may not quite do it the way it's going...

"Bullshit... Bush is in office because the SCOTUS stopped counting and placed him in office."

...and what made it close enough where the SCOTUS even had a chance to weigh in?

My point exactly.

"You seem to be the one who is closing their eyes... I'm trying to stick with reality, which isn't always perceived. I'm trying to say don't give in to the bullshit."

Mmm ... no.

In the words of Samuel L. Jackson, my eyes are "wide f***in' open." The reality is that perception is everything. It may not always be right, but it is what it is. The fact that we wish it were different doesn't make it any less true.

Edited for math adjustments. That should be 4:1, not 5:1. Muh-bad... :)

[JuniperLea]

31. You are making too many assumptions you can't justify eom

[rinsd]

10. Its the new trend, minimalist flamebait

[Indydem]

4. You cannot STEAL something you have won fair and square! n/t

[EndElectoral]

8. If it happens so be it...I'll write in Kuccinich.

[cali]

12. what a pile of steaming bullshit. I'm no hillfan but if she wins

she hasn't fucking stolen it. get a grip.

[galaxy21]

23. I respectfully disagree

Look, if he has the lead in states, popular votes, and delegates and she gets it by argueing the black man is unelectable (which is which is what she is currently doing if you believe the rumours)then that is stealing. Maybe not technically, but morally.

[frickaline]

21. they sure do pass around a lot of crystal balls around DU, please le me know where I pick mine up ty

[aquarius dawning]

29. Hillary does better against McCain where it matters, in the swing states.

So your premise is flawed and your logic is false.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/oh/ohio_mccain_vs_obama-400.html"> McCain_vs_Obama in Ohio—McCain+2.6
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/oh/ohio_mccain_vs_clinton-399.html: ">McCain_vs_Clinton in Ohio---Hillary +5
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/fl/florida_mccain_vs_obama-418.html:"> McCain_vs_Obama in Florida—McCain +11.7
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/fl/florida_mccain_vs_clinton-417.html ">McCain_versus_Hillary in Florida--McCain +0.3
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/pa/pennsylvania_mccain_vs_obama-244.html "> Mccain_vs_Obama in Pennsylvania--Tie
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/pa/pennsylvania_mccain_vs_clinton-243.html "> McCain_vs_Clinton in Pennsylvania--Clinton +5.2