As a pacifist who opposed and opposes all war, allow me to comment:

[Tyler Durden]

People may talk all day long about AUMF and how Clinton voted for it, but I want to ask a question here:

How long has this gone on, and when did 99% of the casualties (US and IRAQI) occur?

That's right, AFTER they started voting MORE MONEY FOR THE WAR.

So in my cosmology, if you vote for a resolution that shovels more money into the Iraq War, as both Democratic Candidates have done, then BOTH are responsible for the death and torture that has happened there, since without the cash, no war.

NEITHER had the guts to stand up and say "NO! I will not vote more money for this," even after it was perfectly obvious to everyone that the whole debacle was an aggressive conflict, started by a lie, and prolonged for profit.


OK, here's another one: Name the candidate who has stated that NO MATTER WHAT, the withdrawal from Iraq begins DAY ONE and goes on at all speed until no more troops are dying in the sand?

Alright, it's a trick question: NEITHER.

Now, since logic and ethics should tell you (since you likely consider yourself an intelligent and honorable person), that NEITHER candidate has no blood on their hands regarding the war, and neither is likely to end things soon, Can we move on to another topic?

Thank you.

[Tyler Durden]

1. Hey! Anyone got the MINERALS to defend why their candidate votes for money for war?

I mean, we are talking NUREMBERG here. That EITHER of them has voted a penny for it is something to be ashamed of.

I feel a nasty twinge with every single penny of tax I pay. THEY shouldn't be able to SLEEP at night.

[merh]

2. Nice try - you may convince yourself, but you won't convince others

and you can't be a true pacifist, no pacifist would support a candidate that promised to obliterate an entire nation.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Listen, just because you've sold out your principles...

don't expect other people to buy your phony reasoning.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. Kucinich for President

Strength Through Peace

[Tyler Durden]

6. What a terrible price we will pay for that missed opportunity.

History will record us all as baseless cowards for not electing someone like him or Gore. Generic Democrat beat any Republican last year by a minimum of 13%. What a tragedy.

[anigbrowl]

26. Gore didn't run, and Dennis Kucinich doesn't have what it takes

Never be so foolish as to mistake goals for strategy.

2004 Kucinich volunteer here, who has met DK a few times and admires him greatly - as a congressman.

[Tyler Durden]

28. Probably a great guy. Levin is a great guy. So is Bonior.

I've met and talked with both of them, I know Bonior very well. He talked me into running for office in Michigan. I got beat like a red headed step child, but the guy I took votes from was an asshole of the first rank and didn't get elected, so I was good for something.

We have a lot of GREAT Party members here in Michigan. Damned shame the rest of the country is like a St. Bernard and we're the fire hydrant.

This will not end well.

[Tyler Durden]

7. Paging #3: You're on IGNORE

Waste your time if you like.

[Zuiderelle]

8. This certainly has been the most interesting primary season I've ever seen.

I've decided to just sit back and enjoy it.

[cbayer]

9. We do not have a peace candidate.

Anyone who thinks we do is lying to themselves. I just have to choke that one down and look at the other issues.

[JasonHill]

10. Utter nonsense

you try to cleanse Hillary of giving Bush political cover to engage in an executive decision to initiate the eventual deaths of arguably 1 million people by trying to tie Obama to this albatross because of the continued funding of it when American soldiers are in harms way. She had her choice to go on the record and actually stand for something other than vacuous pandering by voting against giving Bush cover but she didn't have the spine. She decided to try to play it politically safe and now all Dems are having to make the choice of sorting through this mess while attempting to navigate the War-induced climate by avoiding American and Iraqi civilian casualties while trying to do the best in stabilizing a cluster**** after the toppling of Saddam. You do a great disservice to liberalism by defending her on her disgusting actions.

[cali]

19. well said. n/t

[IndianaJones]

11. Obama was only voting for defensive force shields...not bullets or bombs. nt.

[NashVegas]

12. YOU'RE a PACIFIST?

What on earth are you doing with that nick?

[Tyler Durden]

15. I like chaos.

Entropy, like gravity, always wins.

Boom.

[cali]

bwahahaha.

even more moronic.

[Tyler Durden]

23. Whoever you are, you're on ignore. Likely for an excellent reason.

So do I care what you post? Nope. Waste your time. Your life.

[Tyler Durden]

25. Posters #21, 23, 25, 26? go back to whatever you were doing: You're already on ignore.

Have a nice day.

[Pastiche423]

13. Another topic...

BROKERED CONVENTION

Three days ago I was thinking I knew which candidate's oval I was going to fill out on my paper ballot. (We will be receiving our ballots in about a week.) Now that I heard from Obama's mouth that he supports the confirmation of general Betrayus, those ovals will remain blank.

We need a compromise candidate. I hope that will be achieved during the convention.

[Tyler Durden]

29. This really sucks, doesn't it?

GOD what was the DNC thinking? We needed a strong, one-termer like Johnson, instead we get Susan B. Anthony and the Rock Star.

[Pastiche423]

30. Do you really believe it was the DNC?

It's the same ole shit it ever was - TPTB deciding who we may vote for.

I have stared at the date, January 20, 2009, thinking a huge weight will be lifted then. Now I'm not so sure.

[Tyler Durden]

33. Who else?

I hate that fucker Dean. He and that puke Brazille...

This can't end well, no matter HOW it ends. With Obama you get McCain. With Clinton you MAYBE get McCain, but even if she got it, can a centrist really pull this off and fix it?

Fuck I just don't know anymore. I hate this more all the time.

[truedelphi]

31. I understand where you are coming from

I feel that the war is one very important issue, and the Federal reserve is another.

Right now, no Democratic candidates even talk about the Federal reserve.

And no Democratic candidates talk about ending the war immediately.

This is a nightmare for me.

[Tyler Durden]

34. For more than you.

There are more than a couple sane people around here (Pastiche423 is one) who see this for the tragic catastrophe it really is.

Think for a moment: In the midst of a War Crime, the country approaches Depression, with little or no job development likely, food being poured into gas tanks, Global Warming getting ready to start turning DC into oceanfront property...

How much fucking worse can it get, and then we get the Gold Dust Twins vs Old Man River.

We are so fucked.

[truedelphi]

37. You say: Gold Dust Twins vs Old Man River

Great phrasing - that!

[Radical Activist]

14. I don't see cutting off funding as a realistic military exit strategy.

Or even a realistic political strategy for ending the war.
I think drawing a line in the sand about funding was a Kucinich gimmick so he could say he was "the only candidate who..." again.

[Tyler Durden]

17. This is how Pentagon funding works (from an ex-insider)

At least from the Navy point of view.

Current Appropriations take care of current operations. Special appropriations are used for new projects or weapons systems, but they are still on budget. The war appropriations aren't really for the war. What they do is replace services that get shorted, like dependent healthcare and housing, mowing the lawns etc.

So the War Funding ENABLES them to spend billions on the war by covering current expenses with what they're telling you is money for the war.

So your aren't shorting the troops. You're squeezing their families at home, which likely would help to END the war quicker.

Does this all make sense now? It's a SCAM. Cutting the funding would not have cut funds for the FIGHTING. That is always #1 on the the pay line.

[cali]

16. how profoundly stupid

pathetic excuses for Clinton's AUMF vote don't cut it for anyone with more than two functioning brain cells. Read Senator Leahy's profound speech before the vote and grab a fucking clue.

Thanks.

[berni_mccoy]

18. My name is Tyler Durden. My candidate lost. So I have to say they both suck.

[cali]

21. actually, Mr. Pacifist (snicker)

is supporting hilly.

[JasonHill]

24. and try to align myself with wanting kucinich

to give myself cover for supporting a candidate who has run on attacking liberal principles and promoting the Repub nominee over the leading Dem Candidate since the field whittled down to 2.

[redqueen]

20. Sorry, but no. Not just her vote - but her parroting the neo-con lies

will be a stain on her forever.

[LSK]

22. I remember at least once the GOP bundling Katrina money with Iraq Money

Its not so simple. Many of these bills are HUGE and the same bill will have money for the VA and money for Iraq.

I want out of Iraq as much as anyone, but I also watch CSPAN and know its not so simple.

[Tyler Durden]

27. Military ops are pretty straight forward.

The Iraq money never went to Iraq. It REPLACED funds that went to Iraq.

It all comes out of the same pocket, but it's a lie that stopping the funding will stop the war automatically, but with Dependents unable to get cheap cigarettes at the "Exchange" or PX, you can bet they'll be some pissed off dependents calling spouses at war and congressmen.

Now that might speed up the end a little bit.

[Yes We Did]

32. No we can't move on to another topic. Clinton helped drive the bus into the ditch.

The other had to figure out how best to get out given all of the drivers were drunk. The war is still going, in case you hadn't noticed.

Voting for a war and voting for funding are two different things. See that? They sound different. Vote for war... vote for funding. If you had not voted for a war, there wouldn't be any funding of that war. Funding only happens when a drunk tells you he's likely to do anything if you don't give him the money to feed his habit. No one knows what Bush would do so they had to give him the money. Funding the troops is much different than starting a war. Try to understand that.

[Tyler Durden]

35. Listen, you condescending....well I won't say it.

How many DIED since "Mission Accomplished" and who made it POSSIBLE? The assholes voting for the MONEY.

If you don't get the morality and ethics of voting to FUND this disaster, then I guess Nuremberg is just a city in Germany to you.

Funding didn't go to the TROOPS; you see, you show your absolute IGNORANCE of how the Pentagon budget works.
The CURRENT budget funds the war. The War Appropriations just BACK FILL the coffers so they can stock the PX and run the bases away from the war.

LEARN what you're talking about, then maybe you won't look silly talking to people who have been there and KNOW.

[Tyler Durden]

36. Look up thread to see more details.

Unless you enjoy being in the dark on how the government scams money to run the fucking war.

And don't kid yourself: Clinton AND Obama know exactly how this works; they go along with the program to look good to the proles.