After watching TeamClinton operate OPENLY the last 6 months, have any of you changed your

[blm]

opinion about the likelihood that Clintons and their loyalists undermined any Dem leader who came forward to oppose Bush and lead the Dems since 2001?

Not too long ago, it seemed most Dems here wouldn't even contemplate that this could be true. Now that you've seen the level of deceits performed OPENLY against Obama, shouldn't historian Douglas Brinkley's observations from April 2004 get another look?


Historian Douglas Brinkley Offers Insights on John Kerry, Vietnam & Campaign 2004 in Crain Lecture

April 5, 2004, Greencastle, Ind. - "People thought I was nuts doing a book on John Kerry," author and historian Douglas Brinkley said this afternoon in a Gertrude and G.D. Crain Jr. Lecture at DePauw University. Brinkley's book, Tour of Duty: John Kerry and the Vietnam War, was released in January, when Kerry's presidential campaign was floundering and getting little media attention. Audio Link"In December, nobody thought that Kerry was anything -- that he was done -- and I was marketing my book essentially as a Vietnam book, the story of the Vietnam War through one person. Even when I started doing big national media to launch my book in January -- just a few months ago -- I was told to try not to talk about Kerry because nobody cared."

The Iowa Caucus on January 19 changed everything, Brinkley told a standing room only crowd in Watson Forum of DePauw's Eugene S. Pulliam Center for Contemporary Media, for the candidate, the author and his book. A national best-seller, Tour of Duty tells of Senator Kerry's heroism during the Vietnam War. Brinkley persuaded Kerry to give him access to journals Kerry kept during the conflict, which provide detailed and sometimes jarring accounts of what life was like for troops in Southeast Asia.
>>>>>>

Whom does the biographer think his subject will pick as a running mate? Not Hillary Rodham Clinton. Audio Link"There's really two different Democratic parties right now: there's the Clintons and Terry McAuliffe and the DNC and then there's the Kerry upstarts. John Kerry had one of the great advantages in life by being considered unable to get the nomination in December. He watched every Democrat in the country flee from him, and the Clintons really stick the knife in his back a bunch of times, so he's able to really see who was loyal to him and who wasn't. That's a very useful thing in life."
>>>>>>

http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=13354



Should we wonder anew WHY Bill chose summer 2004 to publicly defend Bush throughout his high profile book tour while the Dem nominee was leading the criticism of Bush's Iraq decisions? Shouldn't Dems have spent that time getting to know their nominee better and defending HIM instead of rehashing defense of Bill's presidency while Bill all the while was defending Bush?
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq/



Should we really believe that Carville was acting on his own when he called the WH on election night and sabotaged Ohio Dem voters?
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward



Some of us believe Hillary2008 was running since 2000. There are reports that they even undermined Gore's race to keep their own grip on the party.
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/11/clinton200711



I believe right now that Hillary2012 has been running since Super Tuesday, especially since Clintons have KNOWN the math is not there for them since shortly after that day.

[Political Heretic]

1. Tag so I can read at home.

[cui bono]

2. Sadly, I firmly believe your last sentence. n/t

[Ichingcarpenter]

3. You always document which

I always enjoy when you post.... thanks BLM

[blm]

165. Now it's up to others to keep the truth alive. Truth IS our only hope.

.

[chknltl]

4. Impeach Clinton!

and the media who perpetrates the myth that she is still competitive in this race needs to be held to account as well.

[Egnever]

5. Yes the rose colored glasses are off.

They are the worst of what the dem party has to offer. It saddens me that so many are still hoodwinked.

[uponit7771]

12. WORD!!

[blm]

29. Trust me...I know how you feel. Once your eyes are open the 90s look entirely different, too.

.

[Egnever]

32. They certainly do

I spent a lot of time brushing off charges made against the clintons as the vast right wing conspiracy in the past. Her actions during this campaign have made me rethink all of that.

[polpilot]

Ive watched them during and since their Arkansas days. Believe me there's nothing there.

Never was. Just a lot of meaningless press conferences & insincere noble statements. It's just an uninteresting and common story of a disadvantaged Arkansas boy from a dysfunctional hill family who would and will do anything to advance his sociopathetic 'me/me' trajectory. Hillary is the long time abused throwaway spouse who adopts his morals and lifeview in order to remain by his side. The child is forced to adapt a view of both parents in order to survive which includes a lot of denial cojoined with low moral standards. No nation can survive and thrive with these standards and their complkete disdain for those less fortunate regardless of the rhetoric. To believe their lives include 'intelligence' would include advocacy for sociopaths.

[polpilot]

66. I've watched them during and since their Arkansas days. Believe me there's nothing there.

Never was. Just a lot of meaningless press conferences & insincere noble statements. It's just an uninteresting and common story of a disadvantaged Arkansas boy from a dysfunctional hill family who would and will do anything to advance his sociopathetic 'me/me' trajectory. Hillary is the long time abused throwaway spouse who adopts his morals and lifeview in order to remain by his side. The child is forced to adapt a view of both parents in order to survive which includes a lot of denial cojoined with low moral standards. No nation can survive and thrive with these standards and their complete disdain for those less fortunate regardless of the rhetoric. To believe their lives include 'intelligence' would include advocacy for sociopaths.

[ray of light]

68. same here.

[AtomicKitten]

6. The course of events has made this glaringly apparent.

I'm only sorry I refused to see this before.

[blm]

30. One day soon you will have to post your journey and maybe open more eyes along the way

SOME will see themselves in your story. And then another will post....

[Enthusiast]

98. I'm sorry to say it's the same with me.

Call me gullible. When wave after wave of 24/7 Republican attacks came in the 1990s I must have given the Clintons the benefit of the doubt.

Well, once again, the Republicans have divided and conquered. I can't see this mess as having a happy ending.

[speedoo]

7. I'm totally in agreement with you.

The Clintons became the enemy at some point. I don't know exactly when, but at the latest it was when they sabotaged Al Gore in 2000. I did not begin to see it until the IWR vote.

[blm]

9. Thanks for the reminder - I'll add Vanity Fair article about the undermining of Gore

that went on in 2000.

[speedoo]

10. Great... I need to read that.

I'm betting the Clintons were behind Lieberman's VP selection. Have not seen any evidence, but I believe it.

[SoFlaJet]

24. I know exactly when it was...for me anyway

it was a few days before the last midterm elections in '06 when John Kerry messed up the punchline to a joke and there was first John McCain on MSNBC and then an hour later Hillary Clinton tearing him a new one-when she KNEW what he was saying and STILL decided to play politics and try and take out one more possible contender for the '08 run. At that moment I saw her for who and what she was and still is....all for Hillary and no one else

[ClayZ]

41. That was terrible, huh!

It irks me just to remember it!

K and R

[Diane R]

73. That was the lightning bolt for me, too. I knew in an instant who Hillary Clinton really was.

[blm]

114. Yeah - that's when I started calling her Tonya Harding.

.

[ginnyinWI]

138. that was the moment that opened my eyes, too.

I had been dreading a Hillary nomination from that day on. Fortunately she hasn't been able to win the votes she needed due to hubris and bad management.

[mopinko]

36. follow the money nt

[blm]

62. Same Dubai royals protected by deep-sixed BCCI matters are lining Clintons' bank accounts now.

Follow the money, indeed.

Does it really make a difference if the payoffs are made in the years AFTER a president leaves office?

[Diane R]

75. Could that be where her 10 million on Tuesday night came from?

[blm]

105. Don't know - but definitely can count part of 5 million lent to campaign last month.

.

[WHAT]

64. Hell no we won't go to Hillary...

I did not begin to see it until the IWR vote.

That, then the Florida, Michigan cheating locked it in place for me.

[FlaGranny]

120. You know, when I think about it,

I think that's when the light bulb went on over my head too. I don't remember her ever standing up for a potential rival. In fact, I don't remember that she ever congratulated Obama on one of his wins.

[mod mom]

126. Yes, Gore became a populist in 2000. DLCers blamed his "loss" of fighting for the people:

Published on Sunday, August 20. 2000 in the Boston Globe
Thank You, Al Gore
by Robert Kuttner

A funny thing happened to Al Gore on the way to his surprisingly effective acceptance speech. He became a liberal.

The speech was as liberal as anything FDR or LBJ or Jesse Jackson or one of the Kennedys might have delivered. It was built around a commitment to fight for ordinary people, against large and powerful interests. This, of course, is precisely what made it effective.

The emotional heart of the speech, Gore's honoring of four ordinary American lives, did not just salute the struggles of workaday families, the way Ronald Reagan often did. It identified who was dishonoring their struggles - corporations. He singled out heartless HMOs who pressure a family to sacrifice a child; drug companies that force a pensioner to choose between food and medicine; corporate polluters; corporations that pay workers inadequate wages.

And he identified the solution: strong, reliable public Social Security; better Medicare; welfare reform that rewards work rather than punishing the needy; higher minimum wages; and more investment in public - not voucher - schools, so that working families don't have to send kids to crumbling classrooms.

What is the evil? Corporate power. What is the remedy? Effective government.

-snip
http://www.commondreams.org/views/082000-105.htm


Strange Theory on Why Gore Lost



The so-called Democratic Leadership Council has decided that Al Gore should have acted more like a Republican in order to win the 2000 presidential electoral college vote in addition to his nationwide popular vote victory. This strange finding has drawn some attention, including coverage by the Associated Press and the Environmental News Service -- we have a few excerpts from their reports for you here.
Al Gore, the self-styled environmental candidate in the 2000 Presidential election, lost his bid for the White House because he campaigned on an outdated "populist" platform that was too liberal for most Americans, according to a new report drafted by the Democratic Leadership Council.

The 40-page report, titled "Why Gore Lost, And How Democrats Can Come Back," concludes that the Democratic Party must move towards the political right -- towards the Republicans -- if it wants to regain control of Congress in 2002 and the White House in 2004.

Al From, the DLC's founder and CEO, opened a freewheeling discussion forum by arguing that Democrat Al Gore made a huge tactical mistake by continually emphasizing that he would "fight for the people and not the powerful" as the nation's first president of the 21st Century.

-snip

http://www.progress.org/goredlc2.htm

[XemaSab]

8. I've gone for having a lot of respect for the Clintons

to wishing they would pack up and move to somewhere far, far away from anywhere they can do any more damage.

This election really is about the DLC versus the rest of the party, and I am FIRMLY on the side of the rest of the party.

[dchill]

51. DLC versus the rest of the party...

And there you have it. And they don't fight fair. (Understatement.)

[blm]

57. For me its Anti-corruption, Open Government Dems v Closed Government wing of the party.

And I believe we have finally grown ours into the stronger half - it just took more Dem eyes opening to the truth about the Clinton-Lieberman wing of the party.

[Jawja]

132. And I will add that the DLC

is supported by the same apparatus that supports the GOP and this has become obvious with the way the GOP and their cronies in the corporate media have pushed the "Hillary can still win" spin.

In fact, I'm starting to see the "bigger picture" on why there has been no real Congressional opposition to the disastrous policies of the criminal Bush Administration.

[uponit7771]

11. Would be surprised but not shocked if they did

[dchill]

13. Hillary Clinton has bothered me since I first became aware...

of her, from her not-Tammy Wynette days (still standing by her man, anyway) to her not-baking cookies snobby attitude to her heavy-handed one-woman destruction of any halfway decent health-care plan (and who but a fool would believe she'll ever do anything differently) to her current pathological narcissist pseudo-populist coron-ential campaign.

Kerry had the goods on the BCCI scandal, but Bill Clinton put the lid on it for his good buddy, George "Herbie Walker" Bush. Therefore, Kerry had to be taken out of the way. Make way for Hillary2008/2012/2016/.....

[Divernan]

14. Interesting that Marion Wright Edelman (Children's Defense Fund) has not endorsed HRC

This is relevant because HRC and her supporters make much of HRC's time (I believe only 6 months) at the CDF - as evidence of HRC's devotion to children's welfare.

I recalled hearing that Ms. Edelman had been estranged from the Clintons years ago, but haven't been able to find much on the web, except this blog comment:

"You mean the Children's Defense Fund headed by Marion Edelman who said the Clintons were no friends to children because they left the childcare subsidies behind in the Welfare Reform Act, that CDF, who also said tens of thousands if not more kids were pushed into poverty as a result? And the migrant workers still exploited, working and living in abominable conditions, during and after the Clintons' administrations? And the fairness of Brown v. Brd of Ed, how's that going? Oh, yeah, schools are still mostly funded by private property taxes, corporations exempt, and the Clintons didn't establish a federal equal funding system in two terms as they were too busy losing their majority in Congress and millions of kids have gotten substandard education since just because they live in poor communities."

[Ken Burch]

95. HRC stopped displaying ANY interest in "children's welfare" when she stood by Bill and clapped

As he signed the hateful, vicious, racist, sexist "welfare reform" bill in '96. It was an evil piece of legislation, driven by lies about the poor that neither Clinton ever had the decency to denounce, and in the end, everyone who favored the bill voted for "Bob Dole, Bob Dole" anyway.

No one who sacrifices the poor for personal political gain has any right to call him or herself a Democrat.

[beachmom]

15. The reaction to The Joke is what did it for me, but I can imagine a few more

have joined us since then.

[blm]

28. That was a complete display of disloyalty to party and humanity on her part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg

This is EXACTLY who she is.

[ray of light]

31. disloyat to party, disloyal to friends, coworkers,

disloyal to the progressive causes. And only loyal to herself.

[Diane R]

78. That clip of Hillary should get it's own thread. Viewers will now see who she's always been.

[ray of light]

16. You read my mind!!!

[blm]

22. This stuff is hard to get past... the truth is needed for our party to learn, adjust and move on.

.

[City Lights]

17. My eyes are wide open now, and I finally see the *real* Clintons.

I'll just leave it at that.

Recommending and bookmarking.

[TexasObserver]

18. Agreed. She's sabotaging the party in 08 to run in 2012.

And that's been her script since Super Tuesday.

She's in it to lose it ... for our side.

Just like she helped do in 04.

[book_worm]

19. yep, any respect I had for her has gone out the window.

[bhikkhu]

20. K&R, and keeping on file.

I suppose whether this is baseless conspiracy theory depends upon how Hillary conducts herself as things wind up in the next couple of weeks. Does she simply pack up and exit gracefully, and throw her support behind our nominee, or does she trash the place and poison the well.

She might have 2012 in her sights, but that only works if Obama is thoroughly destroyed and all other potential rivals kept subsidiary for the next four years.

[ray of light]

25. sort of seems like she's scortching the earth right now.

and endorsing McBush over the Democrat.

Wonder if she'll hold LIEberman's hands at the RNC convention.

[blm]

26. They'll be co-presenters.

.

[bigtree]

21. undermined them? They changed votes? Doubt it.

[blm]

23. and one day you'll explain why you believe Brinkley was lying...right?

And why Bill had good reason to be on a book tour in summer of 2004 when he wasn't siding with the Dem nominee on the major issues of the campaign...right?

[SwampG8r]

127. ....crickets......

[blm]

131. heh...good catch...

.

[AlinPA]

27. I agree with the sentence about Hillary2012. I was a big supporter at one time for

"Hillary 2008".

[GetTheRightVote]

33. I have no doubt they have been planning all of it but then Obama

joined the party and they were lost, he is just to good and to much into leading the people for them to be able to defeat him. Thank you Obama for stepping into the mess so that you can get it straighten out and thank you John Kerry putting him forward so long ago with his first great speech. History is in the making as we watch it today.

[ray of light]

34. thank you JK for taking a chance in 04, when Hillary knew shehad to play it safe

for 08.

And thank you JK and Obama for fighting the machine!

[Diane R]

79. We owe John Kerry a lot. And the Clinton succeeded in denying him the presidency, too.

[blm]

130. Only because most Dems didn't KNOW the level of their deceits then. NOW we know.

Sorry that Gore and Kerry and even Dean had to go through the last 8 years of sabotage and undermining by TeamClinton but now enough know the truth that we can band together and STOP them.

The Bushes RUINED every bit of the Republican party with their agenda. WE have to stop the Clintons doing the same with the Democratic party.

[ray of light]

154. They denied him the Presidency AND they made us SUFFER

and these additional years will take a generation to repair.

Things would NOT be this awful had we taken a new direction 4 years ago. And I'm sorry...but what Carville did the night of the election really sends shivers down my spine. Also, that WHOLE time before the election, Carville, Brazille, and others were on tv bashing the Kerry campaign instead of using those precious moments to TALK ABOUT THE GREAT JOB Kerry would do.

I thought at the time that it was ineffective, but hindsight makes me think it was intentional.

[MBS]

121. what you said

thanks to blm, too

[goclark]

147. yes indeed nt

[Samantha]

35. I posted exactly this sentiment in 2003 on this site

I said that in connection with the DLC coming out publicly asking Al Gore not to run. I said the DLC was run by the Clintons and that should Al Gore prevail in 2004, Hillary not challenge an incumbent Gore in 2008 running for a second term. I said she was covering her own political flank, and in that process, was throwing Al Gore under the bus. That's the same Al Gore who was, to a large extent, the reason Bill Clinton won the White House in 1992.

So whenever I see posters here ruminating over the same Clinton pattern with regards to defaming an opponent even from her own party, I think of that post. I have searched the archives repeatedly trying to unearth that thread, but the originator was eventually tombstoned. I am not sure when that happens, if even archived threads are removed. I saved a paper copy, however, because I felt sure the same issue would rear its ugly head in 2008, and so it has.

Hillary Clinton is all about Hillary Clinton, and if that means sacrificing other worthy Dems to protect her political interests, oh, well ....

I will not vote for this woman under any circumstances.

[blm]

69. Yes - I included the Vanity Fair article because Gore was their FIRST TARGET.

And that fact should be apparent to ANY self-respecting Democrat by now.

I remember well your posts in 2003. I gave Bill the benefit of the doubt until I read his book in 2004 and saw the level of disrespect he has for the citizens who happen to CARE about the historic record of this nation and the ACCURATE preservation of that record.

[Samantha]

118. That was an excellent article - this Country has paid HEAVILY

for the theft of the 2000 election. The question two Presidential elections (eight years) later is can we as American citizens make a comeback? It will not be an easy process. Perhaps it will start with Barack Obama.

There was another excellent Gore article published in The Washington Post Magazine November 17, 2002. It's a little known article but very poignant. I kept the entire magazine.

It shows a picture of Al Gore on the cover sitting on his sofa in his new Tennessee home, and it's simply entitled: "The One That Got Away." The pain in his face is visible. I think of the stolen election of Al Gore (and Kerry, as well, in 2004) as a historical election catastrophe, the consequences of which will stay with this Country for the balance of its existence.

It has not been easy to persevere as a Democrat these last eight years, but we do what we can. In that regard, I am glad that you are still here, I am still here, and unlike many others who came in 2001 who seem to be too tired to talk much, WE ARE BOTH STILL VERY VOCAL.

[blm]

128. It was Gore's latest book that proved to me why Clintons DIDN'T TRUST HIM with their legacies

from the 90s. He is far more protective of open government and citizens' right to open government while they ended up needing to be protected by the same secrecy and privilege of closed government that they provided for BushInc throughout the 90s.

Thus, the alliance of Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton.

[Samantha]

146. Excellent point

Never thought of that as being the reason for Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton, but it makes a great deal of sense.

[blm]

150. Who are they going to trust, honorable men like Gore and Kerry or deceivers like themselves?

.

[mopinko]

37. well, i am proud of du.

seems to me that, troll infestation notwithstanding, du has seen through hill from almost day one. and these days i, for one, am proud that it has become obama underground.

[blm]

58. I hear you - it's been frustrating and most often the targets have been other victims of

Clintons' deceits. First Gore, then Kerry, then Dean. Now that they are doing their deeds in PUBLIC it really shines a whole new light on what they did in prior elections when so many Dems were unaware of their self-serving plan for Hillary2008 and their Bushprotecting overall agenda.

[Hamlette]

38. I completely changed my opinion of both of them

I was as big a defender of the Clintons as anyone on earth.

At least now I understand what I thought was a great mystery: why do people hate the Clintons.

I get it.

They are self serving.

I'm not so sure she's running for 2012. The party usually doesn't pick someone who has lost before. If she had dropped out a month ago we might give her a go in 2012 if McCain wins but not now.

She's shown herself to be incapable of running a campaign, why would we turn the country over to her?

[FlyingSquirrel]

39. There's a reason Kerry endorsed Obama and not Hillary.

[Diane R]

80. I think it's the same reason she's getting so few new endorsements from Senators.

[blm]

84. True - almost every new Senator endorsement since February has been for Obama.

.

[smiley_glad_hands]

40. K&R. eom

[FatDave]

42. The hardest part

is having to admit that my right-wing nutjob brother-in-law was right.

[blm]

46. He wasn't right about it - I doubt he saw how Clintons protected BushInc in the 90s, and

only called the self-serving part right.

Serving THEIR own interests REQUIRED keeping Poppy Bush and his powerful cronies protected and they undermined every good Democratic lawmaker and our part to serve the secrecy and privilege of BushInc.

Truth and the historic record of this nation, did not MATTER to Clintons when their goal was to protect BushInc throughout the 90s.
http://consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

[seafan]

60. Great thread, blm. That Parry article has got to be one of the most-linked at DU.

Robert Parry: Democrats, the Truth Still Matters!



You have helped so many see the ugly, ugly truth about the Clintons. They are their own primary benefactors of any and virtually all actions they undertake. Sadly, that fact is demoralizing our country.




I supported Bill Clinton in two elections. I defended his wife from the vicious right wing attacks. I defended Clinton during the impeachment witch hunt that blinded our country to the danger waiting for us on December 12, 2000. And now, because it was so bitterly politicized in 1998, the only tool we have left to remove the present Bush War Criminal Administration is broken.


The self-serving nature of the Clintons was carefully obscured from many supporters in the 1990's. The GOP recognized that agenda right away, because it's reflective of the GOP's own ideological mindset. It's much easier to hate the traits seen in others that are also within one's self.

So, in that sense, the GOP was keenly aware, and early, of the Clintons' motives.


Sadly, the long-time Clinton supporters are the last to see it or much less, accept it. It's too painful to face betrayal by someone you trusted and for a time had great affection.

The toughest part about all of this is the sense of betrayal of our country. For what we could have had. And now, for what we have lost.




Senator Clinton is no fool. She knows she will not be the Democratic nominee in 2008. Revenge and spite will now play out in her campaign's attacks against Obama, a candidate who has finally awakened this country since the tragedies of the 1960's. He has proved himself to be one of the very few visionaries who come along once in a lifetime.



For Hillary Clinton's campaigns in 2008 (now aimed to destroy Obama) and 2012 for the presidency against a weakened McCain/unknown, the agenda is stunningly clear.


And for now, she is willing to demoralize and destroy this country's long path to recovery and the Democratic Party itself, to do it.

[blm]

61. There are many who see themselves in your post, seafan.

Stay true, patriot.

[seafan]

81. The truth will set us free. Thanks for all you do, blm.

Sometimes, above the cacophony, a few truthful voices break through.

And the numbers are growing.

[blm]

71. Parry is a hero to this nation. He and the Dem lawmakers who exposed BushInc

at great risk to their lives and careers would get the Congressional Medal of Honor if I had my say.

[leveymg]

43. Both dynasties run on oil and are directed by the same, small circles of global elites

Together, they offer the illusion of choice.

[BelgianMadCow]

152. Your post is brilliant

in it's succinctness (is that even a word??).

The illusion of choice - isn't that what it's all about?

Hearing people discussing about brand A being better than brand B, knowing they all come out of the same multinational corporation, and often are only different in packaging and marketing...

I believe shows like American Idol exist to offer up another illusion: even if you're poor, or if you have no shot at the american dream, you CAN always become a star!! Meanwhile, through all the shows that use "stars" in panels and through the media attention for celebrities, stardom is hyped as the ultimate objective...a culture has risen in which no longer Ghandi or Jesus or Marx are the inspiring figures, but Posh and Becks.
These shows are only the proverbial circus and most celebrities the show monkeys.

Another illusion is the division amongst working class people. Wedge issues like gay marriage are reiterated ad nauseam in the corporate media noise machine, and the force of We the People is halved in the process. I don't think this is an accident.

All these illusions and smoke screens only exist to keep the "bottom" of the pyramid from uniting and rising up.

regards
bmc

[blm]

159. his posts are ALWAYS brilliant - if you haven't yet done so, read his journal.

.

[Eurobabe]

44. Damning stuff, most likely true

Who knows what went on behind closed doors in 2004?

The Clinton machine is ruthless, and cares only about the Clintons. I hate them with a passion.

[blm]

47. Point being that this race forced them to do their dirty work in the OPEN.

Many are just able to SEE IT now, though Gore and Kerry's camp had to deal with the deceits unknown to the wider audience and unnoticed by Democratic party voters.

[ray of light]

109. And the media allowed it to happen.

[blm]

111. right - they couldn't cover as well with so many of us watching and listening to every word.

Damn internets again, eh?

[Raine]

45. I used to love them now I can't stomach them

at all. It's sad after defending them all these years that it seems some of the bad things I didn't believe turn out to be very believable. :-(

[wowimthere]

48. I've changed my mind about one thing... She's actually worse than I thought she was nt

[Ganja Ninja]

49. I was pretty much neutral until she started talking about ...

changing the rules regarding FL & MI. While I think it was a bad idea to exclude FL & MI, I think it's a worse idea to include them now after they set the rules.

Here's a question for Hillary fans. How hard do you think she would be fighting for FL & MI if she had not won in those states?

Here's the answer: About as hard as she fought to keep them from being excluded when the Democratic Party made that decision.

[blm]

52. About as hard as she fought for Iraq withdrawal - she wasn't for it till Lieberman lost HIS primary

race and right before she started to run HER primary.

[dchill]

50. K&R

[Laurab]

53. I loved Bill - could take or leave Hillary.

Then came Kerry's "botched joke", which opened my eyes a little. I was actually open to learning to like Hillary when the primaries began.

Now - I can't stand to watch her, she bothers me just as much as bush does. I turn down the volume or change the channel. It's the spewing of lies and dirty tricks that did it for me. Bill, IMO has really destroyed his legacy, as well. I have no respect for either of them, and they did it all by themselves. They worked hard to earn my dislike - "Mission Accomplished".

[WildEyedLiberal]

54. You've been speaking this truth here for a LONG time... I'm glad people are finally waking up

I loved the Clintons in the 90s too, and I thought that I was being a good Democrat by defending them, but now I see that they were NEVER on our side, not even then...

Thanks for this thread and for all your truthtelling. Keep it up.

[blm]

55. Anyone who sees the truth before others do gets labeled quickly as 'delusional' or 'unhinged'

and I am also guilty of defending Clintons too long past they deserved my faith and defense, myself, and probably was also quick to knock down those who predated me on the awareness factor.

For that, I, too, am sorry.

[politicasista]

77. Apology accepted

from a former Clinton defender and a Gore/Kerry person. :)

[1trackmindGOP]

107. Don't worry...we still love you anyways :)

We Dems have to stick together, sometimes we get off track and have to engage each other, but in the end you are among family and friends.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

56. That last sentence really says it all.

K&R. Great post.

[Medusa]

59. Used to love 'em both.

NOt anymore. The sooner this over and done with and they crawl back into whatever hole it was they and their enablers slithered out of, the happier I'll be.

[truebrit71]

63. I wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence. According to the Clintons the Democratic party OWES

..them it's allegiance and consider it their own to do with as they see fit...Hence the hatred and vitriol levelled at Chairman Dean and ANYONE that has dared to criticise Hillary and run things for the members of the Democratic Party...

[blm]

67. Yep. When Dean became chair of DNC that drew the same target on him that TeamClinton had

drawn before on Gore and Kerry.

[politicasista]

65. A bangin' K&R

My fam can't stand the Clintons anymore. I started losing respect for them after the botched joke and the cuddling up to the Bushes. They (family) know what they did to both Gore and Kerry. And they like others know they they are out to destroy Obama so that she can run in 2012. People are sick of the media and their Pro-Clinton, Pro-McCain spin too.

:kick:

[Arugula Latte]

70. Despicable. The Clintons are despicable. nt

[Diane R]

72. Kerry would have challenged Ohio if the Clinton's hadn't kneecapped him.

[rox63]

74. K&R for the truth! n/t

[invictus]

76. K & R

[Barrymores Ghost]

82. The BOTH of them make me PHYSICALLY ILL...

I had a lot of respect for the Clintons at one time in my life. I've met them both, contributed to both of their campaigns, and we've even shared encouraging words at brief public meetings.

I also have had my hopes and expectations of each of them dashed -- no, crushed -- by promises they never intended to deliver upon, and ripped apart from being dragged by them, kicking and screaming, down the low roads they've taken to achieve their own selfish ends and to fuel their own sick egos.

They act like they OWN the Democratic Party and have a birthright to drive its direction, and yet they both are drunk (with power) behind the wheel and can't even see past their own dashboard.

Neither of them has anything left to offer but an legacy of continued bitter division and a landscape of stinking scorched earth.

It is time for them both to kindly FUCK OFF and leave us all alone.

[blm]

94. Your story is similar to many here. We fought so HARD for THEM. And then what?

It was never about us or our party or our country for THEM.

[Barrymores Ghost]

83. Oh, and one MORE thing...K&R. Excellent post. N/T

[goletian]

87. i always used to defend hillary from repukes, and although

i didnt really have candidate in mind when the race began, i was happy to assume hillary, obama and edwards were our top choices. i was very pleased with this selection at first. after the obama upsets, hillarys camp started demonstrating its shortsightedness (the experience argument focus, which works against her v mccain in long run), then i started noticing feigned outrage and finger pointing at blacks. at that point i was disillusioned. then, as her desperation grew and her tactics moved further into the gutter, i finally started becoming disgusted by her. too much blatant dishonesty for me to stomach.

now, with her comments about massive retaliation and umbrella extending beyond israel, shes sounding like more of a hawk than mccain. and since the repubs that are too conservative to like mccain are pushing for her, im even more disgusted by her. if her strategy gets any more underhanded, ill begin to fear her presidency more than i fear mccains. i dont want her to represent my party anymore.

[But....]

85. and I keep saiding...

Clinton was our best republican president of the last generation.:rofl:

[limit18]

86. Don't fool yourself

the Clintons have never been "openly".

[blm]

92. I mean 'openly' as in directing their attacks on an emerging Dem leader 'openly'

This race has forced them to do openly what they have been doing for decades quietly - undermining and sabotaging the Dem PARTY, its lawmakers, candidates and voters.

[Scurrilous]

88. K & R

:thumbsup:

[goletian]

89. i was very pleased to be able to choose between hillary, edwards and obama, but things change.

although i didnt really have specific candidate in mind when the race began, i was happy to assume hillary, obama and edwards were our top choices, and i assumed hillary had it in the bag. i was very pleased with this selection at first. after the obama upsets, hillarys camp started demonstrating its shortsightedness (the experience argument focus, which works against her v mccain in long run), then i started noticing feigned outrage and finger pointing at blacks. at that point i was disillusioned. then, as her desperation grew and her tactics moved further into the gutter, i finally started becoming disgusted by her. too much blatant dishonesty for me to stomach.

now, with her comments about massive retaliation and umbrella extending beyond israel, shes sounding like more of a hawk than mccain. and since the repubs that are too conservative to like mccain are pushing for her, im even more disgusted by her. if her strategy gets any more underhanded, ill begin to fear her presidency more than i fear mccains. i dont want her to represent my party anymore.

[MessiahRp]

90. The entire DLC/Clinton Operation is meant to be Democratic Party sabotage

They need a national party with the pull that they have to pull off their theft so the Democrats and their open tent is appealing to them, but let's be real and recognize that Clintonian policies are not Democratic policies. The Democratic Party prior to the Clintons and DLC was the party of the people while the GOP was blatantly the pro-corporate party. Their wins and ability to shift the party to the right while protecting corporate friends with pro-business, anti-worker policies has muddied the waters so much that most people can't recognize the differences in the two major parties anymore.

So they figure, why vote for the party that seems to pretend to care about people while being pro-corporation when they can get the real deal and just vote for the straight forward pro-corporate party (GOP). Most people despise being lied to much worse than being screwed over openly.

blm, I have said this countless times since the 2004 primaries when we were both posting regularly in defense of Mr. Kerry but you are seriously awesome.

It's too bad that the best choice we have had in generations to be President was railroaded in 2004 thanks to election theft and allegiance of those to the Hillary in 2008 gameplan.

Rp

[blm]

93. That's the thing about being Democrats - we can't STOMACH that level of lying and if we could

we'd be Republicans.

Thank you for your kind words, Rp.

[Kurovski]

91. K&R. (nt)

[RememberWellstone]

96. Why the hate?

Why can't Obama just win elegantly and not have to hate his opponent? Someone who gave us much hope in a darkened time of our nation. How soon we forget the past, Hillary is just trying to run the race, give her the respect for her to complete it.

[Enthusiast]

100. If she was only "just trying to run her race"

You know, after thinking about this election over the past few weeks I have come to a conclusion. Hillary could have accomplished as much, and maybe more, without that first derisive declaration against Obama. This is so sad.

Divide and conquer, it always works.

[blm]

101. Try reading the post next time and ask WHY Clintons hate open government Democrats.

And clinton campaign has known full well that she couldn't win since Super Tuesday. They KNEW the majority of superdelegates were in Obama's camp as a major news organization surveyed all the supers who had not formally committed shortly after Super Tuesday.

And I did NOT forget the past - YOU did. Read the links posted in the OP. And read the consortiumnews link below. The past is the REASON for the thread.

Truth and the historic record of this nation, did not MATTER to Clintons when their goal was to protect BushInc throughout the 90s.
http://consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

[ray of light]

108. Hillary has run her campaign the opposite of the Wellstone way.

and her actions and verbiage lately are far from your namesake--Wellstone.

[blm]

110. Yes - Wellstone would have been all over the tube speaking for Kerry in 2004. Did Hillary?

No way.

[Ken Burch]

166. "Just trying to run the race" would mean NOT bashing and not going negative.

"Just trying to run the race" would mean doing the right thing and ONLY attacking McCain(you know, the OTHER party's candidate...the one she NEVER attacks or disagrees with?)

[VotesForWomen]

97. put down the kool-aide. nt

[blm]

102. If YOU put down the kool-aid and picked UP the National Security Archives you could

post accurately as an informed citizen, as well.

Try it.

[JeanGrey]

99. The last line says it all.

[Kolesar]

103. Was Carville working for the Kerry campaign at the time he got info on election night ...

...about Kerry challenging the provisional ballots?

[blm]

106. No. Carville likely got the info from McAuliffe who was head of the DNC and would've

been in constant contact with Ohio Dem party at that point, and Dem party election legal team.

[Kolesar]

119. Ok. I had to sleep on this one and now I am with you

Carville should have been considered toxic--and somebody not to confide in--even back in 2004. :sigh:

[blm]

129. Kerry didn't let Carville in. I think Gore likely warned JK which Clintonites to look out for

because Gore saw the backstabbing of his own campaign. Penn being one. And it was McAuliffe who ran the production of Gore's convention where they let Clinton do his World Wrestling Entrance that cheapened the event .

I know Kerry wanted McAuliffe replaced as party chair once he became the nominee but there was no way to pull it off so close to the election. The only experienced party heads of the last 12 years had all been Clinton players.

[ginnyinWI]

139. And Carville calls Richardson a "Judas"?

I guess it really takes one to know one. He's a real rat. And that disparages rats.

[blm]

141. Worse than a rat - he's proved to be a mole acting to protect BushInc.

Just as Clintons did throughout the 90s.

[elmerdem]

104. there was a point in the last

debate when Obama gave her the chance to do the right thing. I had already thrown shit at the tv. I couldn't believe Obama was keeping his cool (I respected him even more after the debate). He commented that in 92 he heard all the fuss about the stay home & bake cookies comment & he said he knew it wasn't true & it is just politics when people twist words to make them mean something they don't. What does Hillary do? She went on to continue bashing him about the bitter comment even though he told her to her face she knew it wasn't true. She has zero character. It reminded me of the fake outrage at the Kerry comment. She's not stupid, she knew what Kerry & Obama meant. & we know she knows. I cannot for the life of me see how her supporters don't see through her.

[BelgianMadCow]

112. My view hasn't changed - the lid put on investigations of HWB

by Clinton said it all.

Two fronts for one machine - the illusion of choice...

[blm]

113. That's my issue - it effected the view and accuracy of our nation's historic record

just to protect the secrecy and privilege of Poppy Bush and his powerful cronies.

Waking up to that betrayal of our party and our nation is the first step to rolling back the power the closed government protectors have accrued. No more closed government Democrats will ever get my support.

[BelgianMadCow]

149. Indeed, and in keeping the lid on the can

the worms only get bigger.

Like the Nixon-era hustlers coming back to haunt us - the crazy kids like Don Rumsfeld who got their shot to play front and center.

My history knowledge is seriously lacking - if not for DU, I wouldn't have known much of these things (like who pardoned who)...which is why I love this place.

:hi:
bmc

[blm]

164. And study of journals by Octafish, leveymg, robertpaulsen, bobthedrummer,

seemslikeadream, H2OMan, Stephanie and ProSense should bring most cocerned citizens up to speed.

[KoKo]

115. K&R...

[Raine]

116. I've come to that conclusion

probably in the last couple of months. :-(

[blm]

117. I doubt there is ANY Dem happy about having to face the truth. I know I wasn't.

.

[FlaGranny]

122. Watching the Clintons

since his presidency, I've begun to believe that Hillary is the motivating force behind Bill. Bill is a brilliant man on his own, but Hillary is coming across to me as the "woman behind the man." I'm believing she actually DID have a lot to do with policy decisions in the 1990's, just like she says. Somehow, though, her "experience" does not comfort me.

[blm]

124. Yes - I'd really like to hear a 'DEBATE' about her influence on policy in the 90s.

Especially their policy of protecting BushInc and undermining any Democratic lawmaker who had been leading investigations of GHWBush and his powerful cronies.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

123. Thanks for a great post

Keeping it kicked - everyone should read this.

[mod mom]

125. How the heck did I miss this-EXCELLENT POST including the comments!

Wish I could have rec'd it.

[CaptJasHook]

133. Small story to share

In 1996 I was working for the local Oregon Museum of science and Industry. It just so happened that we had an event display at the Tulare County Fair in California (we covered the whole West Cost). Most of the fairgoers were seasonal, Latino workers. I was stuck in my booth, surrounded by two local churches, the local Republican Party table and the VFW information table. After a 6 hours of feeling pressed in by Conservative values, I took a walk to another part of tent.

There was a table set up by the Democratic National Committee and I breathed a sigh of relief. At the table was a husband and wife team. Looking back at it, I was surprised how much the couple had adopted the Hill/Bill look. He was tall, tanned with moused blond/grey hair. She was very professionally dressed in a business coat. I had conversation with them about my being boxed in by the right wing, and we had a laugh. Then I asked them how they were doing registering votes in this farming community. I still remember their answer.

"Oh, we are just down here for show. Most of these people don't vote anyway. It's a bit of a waste of our time, but someone had to pull the short straw."

I remember feeling really confused and sad about the state of the Democratic Party, that they would abandon Latino farm workers so cavalierly, with such disdain.

Now, I am not so surprised.

I am still sad and confused about all the love I had for Bill Clinton. I feel like a dupe. Worse, I sometimes feel like Limbaugh may have been had some truth over all those years.

[blm]

134. Limbaugh and his ilk weren't being truthful either. They were the rinfleaders of the dog and pony

where the RW was conditioned to attack Clintons on all that bullshit stuff while the Dem party was being conditioned to DEFEND Clintons from all that same bullshit stuff, while the fascist agenda of BushInc was pressing forward under the radar with little to no notice from the citizenry divided and fighting amongst themselves, cheered on by the corporatists in charge of the media.

[ray of light]

142. good points!

[blm]

144. thankyou - 90s do look different don't they?

.

[MonteLukast]

157. Things always look different in hindsight.

But even back then I could feel that our economic boom wasn't really a boom, that there was a hollowness to all the good feelings, that a lot of people were being left behind for such "good times".

Now I see a lot of people have not only their finger on it, but their whole hand so they can SMACK down that faux and unsustainable optimism. It was the first Democratic president who's actually won in a long time; how could we not lap it up? Even if it was artificial sweetener in the end.

It takes the real thing (in Obama) to recognize the fake. (in the Clintons)

[blm]

161. Excellent analogy - artificial sweetener....which can be fatal in excess, too.

.

[CaptJasHook]

156. I agree, I know that and yet...

this primary... this Clinton has made me doubt my initial instincts and my sanity. It is all so sad.

[blm]

162. A good way to know it's NOT an issue of sanity is by reading this thread.

We have to face it - the corpmedia set us up with the whole dog and pony show of the Bushes and the Clintons and the Bushes just so we would be distracted with all the demagoguery while the coverups of fascist agenda and the crimes committed for that agenda went under the radar the last twenty years.

[tammywammy]

135. You know, I've never been a big fan of the Clintons

Sure Bill did some good during his presidency, but it was marred with the bad things that came out of it. I've never been on the Hillary bandwagon.

I've never trusted them. I always think they're lying when it's more beneficial than just flat out telling the truth. I think the last year, has solidified my opinions of both the Clintons, and it's not in a good way.

I always thought they weren't helping Kerry much because Hillary was to run in 2008. That was the plan, and damn anyone that got in the way. Looking at what's been said of Richardson since his endorsement of Obama, he's a traitor or a Judas. A traitor? Judas? Really?? Give me a fucking break.

[stillcool]

136. Hillary throwing John Kerry..

to the wolves..circa 2004
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg

[Honeycombe8]

137. I hang my head in shame as one who wouldn't contemplate that the Clintons would do such a thing.

But that was then.

Now, I KNOW that that was indeed their modus operandi, particularly in the runup to the 2004 election.

All the troops who've died these past four years; all those who've lost their medical insurance these past four years; all those who've lost their jobs these past four years; all those who will in the future be taxed more heavily to pay back debt incurred by Bush during the past four years....SAY THANK YOU TO THE CLINTONS.

[blm]

140. I would but that would imply it's ONLY been 4 yrs. They targeted Gore first.

So, thank them for the last 8 YEARS and thank them for protecting BushInc on all his criminal matters throughout the 90s. THAT is what actually led to Bush2.

[ginnyinWI]

143. On the bright side--look how far we've come.

Or look at the fact that the Clintons seem to have gone too far this time and the push-back is happening. When the electorate sees them first hand, sees what tactics they use and reject it, it gives establishment Dems the mandate they need to reject them once and for all.

That's why this election is so important. Here we have a chance to move forward with younger people interested and engaged. If the Clintons keep their stranglehold, it's going to keep the party from infusing new blood in, becoming reinvigorated and coming back into a long-lasting majority. The people are saying they want change--and that isn't only change from Republican rule!

[AspenRose]

145. Someone please help me understand.

I'm being very serious.

For those of you here who have changed your mind, please help me to understand possible reasons why HRC supporters are still behind her, knowing these things.

I just can't get past the hostility of some of the posters on this board in their defense of a democratic candidate actively accepting republican help against a democratic opponent. It mystifies and saddens me, because I don't know where all the anger is coming from. How can any democrat defend a candidate going to Murdoch and Scaife....SCAIFE (!!) ....and dismiss it, saying "it's just politics...."

My husband is a republican and has never made it secret how much he holds the Clintons in low regard. It makes me question why I went through the trouble to defend them....

I am so disillusioned, and I fear for the damage the party is going to sustain because of this.

[blm]

151. Your question deserves its own thread. I don't think you'll get the answers you

deserve way down here, DR.

[angie_love]

148. Yes me, my bf, my sister, my whole family has believed this for a few months now.

We all despise her now.

[blm]

153. Sooner for me - I lost all sympathy for Clintons after reading Bill's book.

.

[MonteLukast]

158. Didn't he say in his book...

...that he had the affair with Monica "because he could"?

*cringe*

Right there a felt a bit queasy about Bill. "Because I can" is NEVER a good reason to do anything.

[ClayZ]

155. kick

[npincus]

160. sad to say i am repulsed by their conduct.

[blm]

163. Look above your post at this thread - there are many who feel as you do.

.