DEM WOMEN SPEAKING OUT / HILLARY Would be Ahead if FL & MI count, Dean is Undermining her

[LulaMay]

Still, no satisfaction for Clinton's sisterhood
By Joan Vennochi
Globe Columnist / April 17, 2008

DEVAL PATRICK brought his cool. John Kerry brought his angst. Ted Kennedy brought his wife.

Governor Patrick and Senators Kerry and Kennedy met separately over the past week with Massachusetts women who support Hillary Clinton and want the state's superdelegates to find a way to count all the primary votes in Florida and Michigan.

But, the aftermath of these sitdowns with the Bay State's top Democrats brings to mind that Rolling Stones classic, "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction."

The men - all Barack Obama supporters in a state that went for Clinton on primary day - said they believe in fairness, but not, necessarily, in counting votes in other states where Clinton claims victory.

Kennedy, accompanied by his wife, Victoria Reggie Kennedy, promised to speak to the Obama campaign; to Howard Dean, head of the Democratic National Committee; and to Michigan Democrats. But, according to women at the meeting, when asked to take their cause public, the senator expressed a higher priority: "I'm trying to get us out of Iraq," he said.

Patrick and Kerry told the group they were moved by their advocacy, and would dig into the issue.

"We supported all three over the years because we believed each of them to be committed to the core basic democratic principle of having every vote count," said Lois Pines, a former state senator and longtime Democratic activist. ". . . Is it really possible they are going to let such an injustice stand and no one is going to make this right?"

Late yesterday, a spokesman for Patrick said, "The governor wants a fair outcome that seats the Michigan and Florida delegates at the Democratic National Convention in August. He is not opposed to a revote. He pledged to convey the group's concerns to the Obama campaign and has done so."

A Kerry spokesman said the senator "had a good, long, honest and productive discussion and he's personally conveyed their concerns to the DNC and the Obama campaign. He reiterated how important it is to have a fair resolution that strengthens rather than divides our party."

The national party is still flummoxed over how to count 2.3 million votes cast by Florida and Michigan Democrats. In scheduling their primaries, both states ignored party rules, leading the DNC to strip their delegates. After Obama took his name off the Michigan ballot, Clinton won 55 percent of the vote. She won 50 percent of the vote in Florida, where neither candidate campaigned.

It's popular to denounce Clinton's female supporters as cranks who refuse to accept defeat. The media continually report that Obama is ahead in the delegate count and popular vote, and it's impossible for Clinton to catch up. That recurring theme could depress Clinton's vote in upcoming primaries. Who wants to vote for a designated loser?

Keeping Michigan and Florida out of the count helps Obama press that case. A recent salon.com article by Sean Wilentz explains why: "Under the existing system, Obama's current lead in the popular vote would nearly vanish if the results from Michigan and Florida were included in the total and his lead in pledged delegates would melt to almost nothing . . . Add those states' votes to the totals and take a sober look at Clinton's popular-vote victories in virtually all other large states, and the electoral dynamic changes."

Of course, the political dynamic shifts if Obama wins the upcoming Pennsylvania primary, along with others. But it's hard to deny that a big piece of Obama's momentum can be traced back to Dean's decision to leave Michigan and Florida up in the air as long as possible. It's also a fact that neither Obama nor Clinton can accumulate the 2,025 delegates needed to nail the nomination; both need support from superdelegates.

Dean's vague promise to seat Florida and Michigan delegates at the convention doesn't placate these Massachusetts women. They want a revote in Michigan and the Florida votes of Jan. 29 counted now.

"A lot of women are not going to be quite so enthusiastic about the level and intensity and depth of their effort on behalf of Barack Obama, if indeed Florida is not counted in a timely manner. If that is being used to undermine the candidacy of Hillary Clinton, as generated by Howard Dean and his team, that is outrageous," said Pines.

Those are tough words from a lifelong Democrat, who backed Kennedy, camped out in Florida for Kerry, and worked the state convention floor for Patrick. They bring to mind another Stones classic, "Under My Thumb."

Kennedy, Kerry, and Patrick are mistaken if they believe all their female supporters can be counted on to stay there.


http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/04/17/still_no_satisfaction_for_clintons_sisterhood/

[rox63]

1. Not if you know how to add and subtract n/t

[Kittycat]

4. We shouldn't poke fun of the intellectually challenged.

But I do hear that ProSense has a great program to help improve math and reading comprehension skills.

[marshall]

54. Maybe if they take off their shoes they can count to 20

[redqueen]

2. This Dem woman says pull your head out already. (nt)

[ProSense]

3. MATH

lessons

[hayu_lol]

9. Don't forget that Texas is still in play as well...

won't know about that state until after June 7th.

Oh yeah, and there are NO caucuses in the GE.

[Justitia]

30. LOL!

[mckeown1128]

38. there are also no closed primaries...

so Obama can cash in on his Indie and republican support. :)

[AllentownJake]

5. Talk to President Gore

Rules be the Rules.

[AlCzervik]

6. Waaaaaa, my god and some of you say Obama supporters are whiners.

[rox63]

42. At least is Obama supporters aren't delusional

Or mathematically challeged.

[jenmito]

7. I guess you (like Hillary) don't care about rules if they don't benefit her!

She knew those 2 states broke the rules and the votes wouldn't count. Get real.

[Quixote1818]

8. Well, since Obama wasn't even on the ballot in MI, he has a huge disadvantage

in any numbers currently coming out of that state. But from everything I have heard he is still ahead even when MI is counted.

[hayu_lol]

11. Quit playing that 'old' song ...

Obama, out of inexperience or stupidity or both took his name off the Michigan ballot. No one told him to do that. He played politics at a very juvenile level and now is being burned by his own actions.

His false claim to half the Michigan delegates could have been avoided had he allowed his name to remain on the ballot.

What a putz he is.

[Quixote1818]

17. Your argument has zero to do with the point the OP brought up

Why are you changing the subject?

[PVnRT]

31. He honored the pledge, which Hillary didn't

Nice try.

[SeaLyons]

10. If FL and MI are not counted,

then this election cannot be considered fair.

[Zachstar]

13. They broke the damn rules. Unless you want 2012 to be chaos then tough love is needed now.

I am so sick of this Faux outrage led by states with groups in them desperate to get attention so they throw the states up against the rules.

THEY THE RULES! PERIOD! 50/50 or they wait for Obama to seat them. Their choice but this sliming of dean and the democratic party needs to stop!

[LostinVA]

69. TOUGH LOVE!!!

:spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank:

I haven't seen you around in a while, Zachypoo.

:loveya:

[barb162]

15. When people in those states vote McCain then the Dem. party leaders

MAY get the picture. They better figure some way of seating the two states.

[PVnRT]

28. Obama was not on the Michigan ballot - how would that be fair?

The only way to make it fair is to have a re-vote, and nothing indicates that is going to happen.

[Lucky 13]

12. No no no no no no no no no. I call bullshit.

If she had objections, the time to voice them was BEFORE she signed the pledge and before she spoke out publicly about how she knew they would not count. All this attempting to change the rules after the fact is fooling no one.

Oh and once again your math is off. Even IF Hillary had won MI & FL fairly and even IF they weren't already deemed to be invalid elections and even IF the Democratic party changes the rules JUST to suit her... she STILL wouldn't be ahead. That statement is misleading and I think you know it.

[BzaDem]

21. No no no no no no no. I call bullshit.

I don't care when or if Hillary objected to a system that disenfranchises 2.3 million people. That system is wrong, regardless of who or when people complain.

If Hillary had won MI and FL, she would be down by 94,000 votes. After PA, KY, WV, and PR, she would almost certainly be ahead in the popular vote, even if NC neutralizes her PA lead.

[PVnRT]

27. Did you miss the part where she agreed to abide by the rules?

She agreed to denying delegates to both states, now all of a sudden it's unfair to do that. She must not have thought it was wrong a few months ago.

[mckeown1128]

41. they were NOT disenfranchised.

They never really voted. If I go in on October 2nd to vote for the GE and they tell me my vote didn't count... I will not have been "disenfranchised" I will have not voted within the rules.

[BzaDem]

61. Bullshit.

Let's say New York decides not to have an election, and automatically gives electoral votes to the Republican. Under your definition of disenfranchisement, that would be perfectly OK, since they never voted.

That is completely within the rules. Completely legal, completely constitutional. That doesn't change the fact that voters were disenfranchised.

[demwing]

43. Lets cut the "disenfranchisement" crap once and for all

1. The delegates will be seated. LAST. It's been decided already, end of story.
2. The states broke the rules. If you tried to sneak your way to the front of the line, and got sent to the end of the line, you weren't disenfranchised. You were busted! Follow the rules as they exist, and if you don't like the rules, change them before the game begins.
3. These are PRIMARIES we are discussing. You don't have an inherent right to vote for in a primary. If the party likes, it can establish rules to cancel voting, and put forward the candidate who can suck down the most chili dogs in an hour. It would be stupid, but it would be legal. There Is No Disenfrachisement in Primaries!

Can we move on now?

[reflection]

48. Chili dogs?

Maybe there's hope to run Al Gore after all! :D

[Lucky 13]

56. Excellent post.

[BzaDem]

59. They were absolutely disenfranchised.

1. The delegates will only be seated if it doesn't affect the outcome. Hence, they may as well not have voted.
2. I don't care what the f*ck the states did. The people's votes aren't counting. That is the definition of disenfranchisement. Stop changing the subject.
3. I never said you have a constitutional right to vote in the primary. You don't need a constitutional or legal right for there to be disenfranchisement. Regardless of whatever you say about the rules, the end result is, if you live in MI and FL, your vote doesn't affect the outcome.

[Spider Jerusalem]

66. No, they weren't. You are painfully ignorant, very nearly to the point of stupidity.

See USSC decision in Democratic Party v. Wisconsin, 1981 (emphasis added):

Held: Wisconsin (Nb: and by extension, any other state; this is a matter of what's known as 'settled law') cannot constitutionally compel the National Party to seat a delegation chosen in a way that violates the Party's rules. Cousins v. Wigoda, 419 U. S. 477, controlling. P P. 120-126.

[demwing]

74. Thanks for the supporting law

now pass me a chili dog :)

[demwing]

75. Can I get an Amen!!! /nt

[catgirl]

14. One word: RULES

Six words: Obama beat Hillary in MI polls.

[rinsd]

20. Two words: Historical revisionism

"Obama beat Hillary in MI polls"

Uncommitted. which was a combination of Edwards & Obama voters, got 238,168

Hillary received 328,309.

http://miboecfr.nictusa.com/election/results/08PPR/01000000.html

Pre-election polls

Poll	      Date	      Sample	Clinton	Uncommitted	Spread
Final Results	-	-	        55.4	39.9	Clinton +15.5
RCP Average	01/06 - 01/14	        54.0	30.5	Clinton +23.5
ARG	        01/12 - 01/14	600 LV	56	31	Clinton +25.0
Detroit News	01/09 - 01/12	600 LV	56	33	Clinton +23.0
Detroit Freep	01/09 - 01/11	600 LV	56	30	Clinton +26.0
Rossman Gr (D)	01/06 - 01/07	300 LV	48	28	Clinton +20.0

[mckeown1128]

39. There was a poll after the MI faux primary that showed Obama

ahead of Hillary... I will try to find it for you.

[rinsd]

40. Thank you for looking.

Let's hope its not by ARG. ;-)

[catgirl]

44. That was a faux election and you know it!

Many people stayed home and some voted in the republican primary.
Don't even try to pretend that those numbers are relevant. Even
Hillary said "it counts for nothing". What bullshit.

[rinsd]

45. You were the one who said Obama beat her in the polls. You were wrong.

I have said repeatedly that MI & FL should split their delegates in half between the two and that Supes from both states should not be allowed to vote.

[catgirl]

47. He was tied in one and won one

But it really doesn't matter. I agree with your delegate stance.

[rinsd]

51. I am all for disregarding the results but let's not make them up.

[catgirl]

55. I didn't make them up

I'm not a liar. You've done this crap before. You're now Ignored to me.

[zulchzulu]

16. Is the "I Don't Believe In Rules" speech on Hillary's web site?

I'd like a copy. Yunno, the one where even if states like Michigan and Florida didn't follow the Democratic Party rules, they should still get away with it... that one. Rules are really just tedious suggestions, right?

:crazy:

[Swamp Rat]

18. Blaming someone else for one's own failures is a poor strategy.

x(

[ShortnFiery]

19. HRC's using *women* like Bush used "our troops" as a backdrop and WEDGE to get her way.

For all her swaggering and admiration of Margaret Thatcher, that old right wing warmonger was ABOVE that (Idenity Politics) bullshit.

[Quixote1818]

22. Why is it that Hillary supporters constantly talk about following the rules when

it comes to delegates but when it comes to Michigan and Florida the rules are thrown out the window?

[Bensthename]

23. Dem Men Speak Out: Put a sock in it.

She couldn't win them any way..

[karynnj]

24. Even Joan Vennochi does not claim that

What she says is:

"Under the existing system, Obama's current lead in the popular vote would nearly vanish if the results from Michigan and Florida were included in the total and his lead in pledged delegates would melt to almost nothing."

This means he would STILL be ahead even if he got a Zero in Michigan. Clearly giving him a zero is not fair. They are calling for revote. Any revote would not give HRC the Margin she has with her votes minus zero.

The Clintons started to float the idea that the popular vote was meaningful in the mix of primaries and caucuses that make up the primary nomination process. How quickly would she and everyone else called Kerry a lunatic had he announced soon after the convention that he was going for winning the popular vote and then scheduled huge events - with Bruce Springstein and others in places like Central Park in NYC and the Boston Commons. He would then rev up the vote in all the urban areas, which are mostly Democratic. He could then have said that he knew the Supreme Court would see that it would be unfair to give the Presidency to whomever won the convoluted Electoral Congress which overweights states few want to live in - you know states that don't count. Kerry would have been called an idiot and the credibility gained over a lifetime would have disappeared.

But, this though in essence is what the Clintons started to do in February when they projected they could come up a little short on pledged deligates. They spoke then of if the difference was small - less than 50. They have since spoke of even winning if Obama has more pledged delegates, more votes, and more states - if she was ahead if you summed the electoral votes of her states vs his. Consider HRC started way ahead - her campaign labeled "flawless" by the media, the media raved about her experience and intelligence since 1992! The NYT actually had an article within a month or so of her joining the Senate speaking of how she humbly took her position as a Freshman. Over the years, she basked in their praise. She also came with Bill, identified as the Democratic party's only rock star. Given that she failed to win the normal way with all the party and media support, the idea that there needs to be new special ways of judging the winner is startling. She was the favored candidate.

As to the author, she wrote after the 2004 loss that she expected it as she knew no one who voted for Kerry. Now, Kerry of course won MA where she lives by over 60%, so this ranks as both a very telling comment about her political preferences and her logic skills. Her hobby seemed to be making negative comments about Kerry, but since 2007, she has been busy attacking Patrick.

[Leopolds Ghost]

46. This Person wrote after 2004 loss that she expected it as she knew no one in MA who voted for Kerry"

As to the author, she wrote after the 2004 loss that she expected it as she knew no one who voted for Kerry. Now, Kerry of course won MA where she lives by over 60%, so this ranks as both a very telling comment about her political preferences and her logic skills. Her hobby seemed to be making negative comments about Kerry, but since 2007, she has been busy attacking Patrick.

[bowens43]

25. if if if if if

por hillary

[Bensthename]

26. would-a, could-a, should-a.. It is too late for her to change the rules.

It wouldnt matter any way. She would still be behind.

[haymakeragain]

29. Stop lying for chrissakes!

Obama wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan, how did Hillarious win it alone? goddamn you guys are Rovian. You're lying, stop it.

[bullwinkle428]

32. You MIGHT have some credibility if you were arguing on behalf of FL only;

that all goes out the window once you bring MI into it!

[Egnever]

33. Thank god for Dean!

I love that man!

[madrchsod]

34. so it`s come down to this--women vs men

how desperate are these people...?

[1776Forever]

35. Obama campaign has proposed a 50-50 split

Clinton Steps Up Call to Count Voided Florida, Michigan Contests

Saturday, April 5, 2008

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/04/05/clinton-steps-up-call-to-count-voided-florida-michigan-contests/

The Obama campaign has proposed a 50-50 split of both states’ delegations, an option Clinton advisers have rejected.

Obama spokesman Bill Burton dismissed Clinton’s latest call to recognize Florida and Michigan’s results.

“Senator Clinton herself said these contests ‘didn’t count for anything.’ But now that it serves her own political self-interest, she’s trying to change the rules and count the results of contests where she and every other candidate pledged not to campaign,” Burton said. “In Michigan, Senator Obama wasn’t even on the ballot. Our focus should now be on seating the Michigan and Florida delegations in a fair manner.”

[Catherina]

36. Lol? Dem Women? It's more like Female Whiners for Hillary

Contrary to popular delusion in the HRC camp, Hillary doesn't have the Female votes sewn up.

Most of the women I know wouldn't vote for her mendacious and manipulative ass if she was the last woman on earth.

They need to change the title to "Delusional Hillary Supporters Who Happen To Be Female Whining"

[reflection]

37. Sea kelp.

Er, I mean, seek help. Immediately. Blue footballs are your friend.

[Alexander]

49. No, she would still be losing to Obama.

Did you fail remedial math or something?

Obama: 1,643½

Clinton: 1,503½

Florida

Clinton: 105

Obama: 67

Michigan

Clinton: 73

Uncommitted: 55

The numbers don't add up. Do the math yourself.

[ihelpu2see]

50. I think if you check around the DU and check the math you will find your supposition wrong.

You would have to give Sen. Obama at least 38 to 40 % of the Mich. Delegates and popular vote if so Obama is still ahead. I agree it was sad that Michigan and FL screwed up but they broke the rules.... Not the candidates.

[rucky]

52. How on earth is counting Michigan (as it stands) fair? n/t

[bobbert]

53. So now all dem women are cheaters who like to change the rules?

not just Hillary?

[HootieMcBoob]

57. Obama wasn't even on the Michigan ballot for crying out loud!

This is ridiculous. Come on now.

[kwenu]

58. Whaaaaaaaaaaa! Whaaaaaaaa! Whaaaaaaaa!

You're NOT going to get a female President on this go round! No one is going to GIVE your candidate the nomination just because you're upset. You have suffrage! Vote for your candidate! If she doesn't win, then sorry. That is the process.

[Bonobo]

60. MEOWW!

[RBInMaine]

62. PURE BS ! Hillary AGREED to the RULES, and is SHAMEFULLY now trying to make hay out of this. SHAME

ON SLICK HILLY !! FL and MI agreed to the rules then CHOSE to break the rules. Hillary AGREED, IN WRITING TO SUPPORT THE RULES, and now is playing this SAD and PATHETIC game. She is SLICK HILLY ! Say ANYTHING, do ANYTHING to try to win. FL and MI WILL be seated in some fair manner, but not the gamed way SLICK HILLY wants. So SLICK HILLY fans, stop your PHONY WHINING and your LYING on this issue and stand by the CLEAR support for the rules and the process you expressed last year.

[AX10]

63. Kennedy, Kerry, and Patrick are mistaken if they believe all their female supporters can be counted

That goes especially true for Mr. Kennedy. :puke:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

65. Well then I hope they enjoy the Republicans who take their places. nt

[ProSense]

64. Ready For Change

Video: http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/caitlinharvey/gGC5qf">Ready For Change

[jillan]

67. Love it! Good - I'm glad they are speaking out.

[cliffordu]

68. And I'd be tickled if the monkeys flying around my butt would fly closer to it....

[mikekohr]

70. UNTRUE!

With both of those states included, and ignoring the fact that Senator Obama was not on the ballot in MI, Senator Clinton would still trail by over 94,000 popular votes.

source: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

mike kohr

[AtomicKitten]

71. You guys are funny. Pissed off because you're being made to follow the rules.

Again I find myself wondering if I find this funny or pathetic, and again I'm going to have to go ahead and say both.

[Moochy]

72. Men!!! GRRR!

:grouphug:

[krkaufman]

73. Great investment opportunity for ya... the Lottery. n/t

[BlueIdaho]

76. Dog years

Yeah that's it - lets count in dog years - or use metric time - or base two math - or only count folks with blue eyes. There must be some way to change reality. Some way to put the princess back on her pedestal. In case you haven't noticed - the SDs are now breaking heavily for Obama - this will be over much sooner than you think.

[RiverStone]

77. I don't get why both states and the DNC could not do a re-do

The prior results should not count, as they were not based on legitimate primaries.

However, I also believe that there was no good reason not to resolve this clusterfuck with some kind of a legitimate re-do in both. This was not rocket science - but folks made it out to be.

The only constant was arrogance, stubbornness, and lack of planning which in the end - hurt the voters.

[IsItJustMe]

78. Tell you what LulaMay, you give this thing to Hillary underhandidly, over the back of Obama, and you

would disenfrachise a huge section of the most loyal Democratic voting block that there is. The black vote.

You would destroy the Democratic party for the next 10 years. Do you really believe that these SD's are that damn stupid?