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RANT: The only reaction I have left to how sickeningly LOW Hillary has gotten

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mythyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 09:39 PM
Original message
RANT: The only reaction I have left to how sickeningly LOW Hillary has gotten
Edited on Sat Apr-12-08 10:19 PM by mythyc
It's so little, actually, compared to all that's come before, but the straw the broke the camel's back for me is: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=117799&mesg_id=117799

with every classless move of hers, this is my reaction:

:puke:
:puke: :puke:
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:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
:puke:

no it's not a joke. the disturbing thing is how serious I am.

& Now that I have your attention:

caveat: I cry bullshit on you if you say that this is standard fare politics. I'm well aware it's always been dirty, and have intently followed every presidential primary and election since 1984 when I was 11---and this is by far far far far far the most slimeball, daily cockroach-ridden scatalogically-infested grout-stenched outhouse-esque gagging leak a disgusting feeling even into your dreams FARCE I've ever seen from a candidate towards her opponent, same party or not. That this is happening with an opponent in the same fucking party for crissakes, at such a critical historical juncture moreover, is alarming and painful.

If you want to take the dirty campaigning to any opponent, just for the sake of argument, don't tell me but but but but but the swiftboating, but but but but but hanging chads, but but but but florida ohio blah blah blah. When it comes down to what's right out in the open, She is worse, leave nothing subtle or dubious or to the imagination-- more degrading and degraded in the open on a daily basis than any american POTUS candidate has ever been to the opponent from beginning to end of the entire election cycle,, in the campaigns I've observed at least. The only corollary I can fathom in recent history is Dick Nixon and Watergate. Even there, or even with the lowest common denominator of W and his ilk, it was a hidden war (no i don't prefer that: is simple dignity in an election for the world's most important leadership role such a hard concept to grasp???) and Rove ran his through 527's etc, kept the worst redolent rather than overtly screeched-through-the-every-american-ear, used back-room shenanigans rather than the press conference or stump speech as soap box for malicious cut-throat character assassination not just of the opponent but of his every supporter (a line i've never seen so unduly and derogatorily crossed).

The "genius" (:sarcasm:) of Rove by contrast has been his clandestine strategies-- a war of innuendo and convertness if nothing else lets one's own partisans retain the illusion of righteousness and the high road. The Pontius Pilotes get to wash their hands clean, whereas these soldiers in the trenches suffer tear gas and tyranny raining down from overhead in a salvo of relentless ovation and privation... I have metaphorical nightmares of what goes on behind closed Clinton doors when comparing that public-private dichotomy....

.

Whatever. I know some here are gonna flame the hell out of this thread, BUT plenty, PLENTY also agree with me. Never mind what awkward, unbecoming, gut-wrenching history we're witnessing and perpetuating now and will feel shame over when we look back and regret the opportunities we missed here by allowing and enabling and facilitating the mass-media shark-tank keep-it-coming frenzy that ensues minute by minute before our eyes. Never mind all that. Take a deep breath and think about it as it could have been. In that context:

When this campaign started I and so so many Americans felt---believed---that we as a nation were taking a giant step forward. A noble stride in the course of human and our nation's history. A black man, a woman, a Hispanic (not to mention a true to heart populist in the mold of Sarge Shriver who actually cares about the poor rather than pandering to them like most of them do): all major candidates in a nation with all this psychic, ethical, racialist, and societal baggage. What an opportunity to work together and bring out the best of all our natures. In the very beginning I would have voted for any of them, and had it all ensued from then to now without such reversals, I still would. WOW, I thought, our best is finally going to come out, now, at last, glory hallelujah, a historic opportunity for resolution, reconciliation, dialogue, healing, in short the amazing American ability to re-invent itself and foster and cultivate and remain a beacon for all we as individuals and society have the potential and power to be--- and all this at a time our nation and in fact world have perhaps never needed, cried for, demanded, hoped for integrity, responsibility, and candor. (side note digression: Hillary, in my opinion, could and might have won had she taken this high road. That's the sad irony for her of this all. I don't gloat that she's where she is. It's painful and piteous to witness and observe. If not, at least she would have remained significant and respected by most, and her husband's legacy to boot would still be intact..., that's a shame which I, nor many here I'd wager, take any pleasure or solace in...) ... Yes I'm an optimist, but are you so much a jaded skeptic near-nihilist (and if so what are you doing here?) that possibility, our potential, what we COULD be, who we should be, that all these deserve not a chance?

It still can be like that, depending, on us. hopes?.... who knows.

What to do? On the one hand this is all immanent and eminent, persistent and resistant, all four in tandem, our core American idealogical chiasmus: the fierce urgency of the now. On the other I need a vacation from this election, from the day in and day out of attrition and degradation infesting once again the American consciousness (whether that's conscious conscientious or consensual or not), this issued from that ... that sorry excuse for a sore loser. And i know plenty of others here and elsewhere feel the same sickness like a brick in the gut, no? :blush:

Rant over. I won't respond to the flamers in this one (though as always I'm happy, even eager, to engage objective forms of opposition). Nor take this back. I'm mad as hell.... :mad: not to mention pretty sad and disappointed :(
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. What you said.
Sad, isn't it?
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JayFredMuggs Donating Member (881 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think hundreds of thousands of Democrats agree with you
I hope they are not throwing up here tonight!
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yes, What you said
:kick:
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Medusa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
4. Just when I think she can't go any lower, she does.
And then her enablers seem to think she's justified in what she says, does, etc. And turn around and accuse us of hating. Well we have a damn good reason for not being happy campers towards her or Bill these days. I can't believe I ever spent one single second defending these people. No more, never again.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. Rant-O-Licious ...
... and then some!

:applause: :woohoo: :applause: :woohoo: :applause: :woohoo: :applause:




... oh, and :kick: and REC'D to the max!!!
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
6. After viewing the video you posted, you chose the correct smilie emoticon.
"It's been so long and the groove in my heart is nearly gone."
Jamiroquia
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thoughtcrime1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
7. She s-s-s-s-sucks.
I'll be embarrassed and sad if that is what I have to vote for in November.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
8. 1440x900
You may want to break those paragraphs down a bit.

:hi:
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
9. Can't find much to disagree with here.
You've said a lot that supporters of both candidates should ponder. Anyone undecided too. The flames are inevitable, but I hope that'll be because this thread gets 100 recs.

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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. What you said, mythyc
In the early debates, I'd look at all the Democratic candidates on stage, and think, WOW! This is so great! Diversity, not one long line of pasty old white guys.

When Edwards dropped out (he was my initial choice, and yes, he's a white guy, but not a Republican white guy), I had to check out both Obama and Clinton again. I didn't choose right away; for one thing, I was so disappointed that Edwards dropped out. The other reason was, I really wasn't sure, because in many ways, the policy proposals of the two remaining candidates aren't so very far apart.

I felt inspired by Obama's speeches, but again, I didn't make a choice between the two of them, because I thought Clinton had a lot of good things to say, and I didn't want to make a choice based solely on being inspired by a couple of Obama speeches.

Over time though, watching the debates, reading about them, etc., I finally decided on Obama, because I felt he was a better candidate, for many reasons. However, over the past month or so, I have been disbelieving, and then disgusted by what I see Clinton doing. I get it that she is competing with Obama for the Democratic nomination, and I know that primaries and GE's aren't tea parties. But why isn't she aiming her biggest guns at McCain? Why is she scolding Obama like he's a five-year-old ("Shame on you, Barack Obama!")? Why did she sit on something ("Bitter-gate") for over a week? It would have been longer, I suspect, as I think this was the "bomb" she was going to drop on Obama just before the PA primary. And the "faux outrage" of Clinton and some of her surrogates and supporters makes them look like drama queens. Yeah, Obama could probably have used different words, but his message would have been the same, yet Clinton -- who seems to have joined McCain in piling on Obama -- doesn't want that truth out there. She wants us to believe instead that small-town America is just fine, no problems, everybody whistles while they work, blah blah blah.

I very much dislike what I see Clinton, Clinton & Company doing. Fucking ugly nasty shit, and I'm tired of it. Say she does end up getting the nomination. Given the tactics she using right now (read: Right Wing), does she think she is insulating herself against the nasty shit they would throw at her? Or is she going to go even nastier?

I'm sick of this (from R's and D's both). Some of them, including Clinton, are like cats waiting to pounce. This isn't about politics anymore for her, I think. It's about trying to beat a fellow Democrat to a pulp, and taking out any of us who don't like it

I, too, have been following elections since long before I could vote, and I think that what is going on now is some of the nastiest shit I've ever seen.

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bellasgrams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Look, there is no winner here, she needs to stay in, there are
millions of people left to vote. Why shouldn't everyone be entitled to vote. When I first voted the winning candidate didn't always get the nomination. The old guys in the back room made the final decision. All this whining about how long it's taking is plain silly. People haven't even voted. BO can't get the magic number of delegates either. Right now it's a toss up. Grow up.
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mythyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. did you even read what she wrote?
Edited on Sat Apr-12-08 11:11 PM by mythyc
SeattleGirl never said once, imply, or even hintingly insinuate that it's taking too long, or that everyone doesn't deserve a chance to vote. The only issue she and I both have in this thread is with her tactics. you're the one who needs to grow up, and in the process take responsibility for your reading comprehension.
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bellasgrams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. You are correct. I stand corrected. I had taken a break and
came back and posted one that was on my mind. So sorry.
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Apology accepted.
:)

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bellasgrams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Thank you
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mythyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. awesome, thanks bellasgrams
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. I'm not putting a yard sign up for her
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
14. Wow. That was un-called for. I hope he kicks her ass on Wednesday..HARD.
Huck Fillary.... :grr:
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
18. Right on, and I'll go you one better....








This is for you Hillary:
















Now, just go away, will you? I hope Gore and Carter KNEECAP you before you destroy the Democrats chances in November 2008, if you haven't done so already. You pathetic P.O.S.
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mythyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. ooooooooooooo the humaniteeeeeeeeeeey
you have to share your smiley stash ;) (did u see this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5440824 ) :D
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I have been compiling a smiley stash for almost 8 years of BushCO
Edited on Sat Apr-12-08 11:47 PM by 48percenter
it is truly huge and amazing. :hi:

And yes, I did see that post, you win an award for the most creative use of smilies!


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mythyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. let's trade, like marbles see....
next time i don't ask nicely ;)
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loveangelc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
19. I'm not sure why people are surprised...it's politics she's going to jump on anything
that gives her hope. It's not right but it's not like its exactly shocking...
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
20. k&r
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
23. Seriously, a true democrat would be offended by her words these
past two days. Twisting Obama's words and insulting the intelligence of voters. She talks to the crowds like they're a group of kindergarteners. Voters are dumb but not that dumb.
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. PA will break for Obama, despite Tonya Harding Clinton. n/t
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
25. I'm this close from calling her the "B" word....and she's earned it.
:mad:

Thanks for the rant. I needed it.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
26. C'mon, Barack Obama has smeared Hillary as a liar since his campaign began
Edited on Sun Apr-13-08 12:00 AM by DemGa
Systematically smearing Hillary as a liar IS CHARACTER ASSASSINATION -- the very lowest and dirtiest, in fact.

And that is real, unlike some of the supposition taken as "fact"; i.e., Bill Clinton is a racist for mentioning Jesse Jackson.
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mythyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. tell you what,
(1) any admission of systematic character assassination on Senator Clinton's part? (2) do you have links of Obama calling Hillary a liar? (3) should any of these sources exist, was she actually lying?

i got some time, so I'll wait for you to go get those for me

:popcorn:
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. It's straight from the Obama campaign

Obama Camp Memo on Clinton “Misleading” Voters

Senator Clinton has consistently made political calculations to deliberately mislead the American people and the voters have noticed

it’s time that Senator Clinton be questioned aggressively about this pattern of misleading voters.

After eight years of an untrustworthy President, can we really expect that a candidate who is viewed as so much more dishonest than McCain will somehow be able to beat him?

A history of misleading voters

http://thepage.time.com/obama-camp-memo-on-clinton-misleading-voters/

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mythyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. thanks for the awesome link!
I'll reproduce the whole "Misleading" section of the memo for everyone's benefit here.

A history of misleading voters

Senator Clinton’s newly released White House schedules—showing a lack of candor on her NAFTA Record, her role in passing FMLA, and her role in key foreign policy decisions—are just the latest in what has become a legacy of misleading voters. On issue after issue, Clinton says one thing while her record says another.

Her Iraq vote. Clinton says she voted for diplomacy, while on the Senate floor at the time she said she was casting a “vote that might lead to war” and doing it “with conviction.”

Foreign Policy Experience. Clinton claims that she’s been “tested” on foreign policy and that she’s experienced in handling foreign crises. But her White House records show that she was consistently absent when critical decisions were being made, and that her trips abroad were largely ceremonial.

The Michigan and Florida primaries. Back when it suited her political purposes she said the Michigan primary “didn’t count for anything” and that she wasn’t leaving her name on the ballot to try to legitimize the results. But now that she desperately needs more votes, she’s doing just that. And despite her pledge not campaign in either state, she held two campaign events in Florida.

Fully vetted. Clinton openly tells voters that she’s been fully “vetted,” choosing to obscure from them the fact that she won’t release her tax returns, earmark requests, or the donors to the Clinton library.

Her position on NAFTA. Clinton tells Ohio voters that she has “been a critic of NAFTA from the very beginning.” Yet her own schedules show that as First Lady she attended at least four meetings to advocate for its original passage.

Her role in passing the Family and Medical Leave Act. Clinton credits herself with “helping to pass” the Family and Medical Leave Act as First Lady. But the 11,000 pages of schedules don’t contain a single mention of her involvement in the issue.

Obama’s religion. In a “60 Minutes” interview, Senator Clinton refused to confirm that Senator Obama is a Christian, even though she knows the facts.

Reverend Wright. Even though it has been reported yesterday that Clinton is pushing Senator Obama’s association with Reverend Wright in attempt to rattle superdelegates, Clinton refused to give a straight answer. She would only say that their campaign “has been making the case that I am the most electable” before shrugging and prompting the next question.

35 Years in Public Service. The oft-repeated Clinton claim that she has 35 years of public service experience is simply false. Fifteen of those years were spent at a law practice.


now tell us,

(1) you said he's "Systematically" attempting to paint her as a liar. This would imply a multi-pronged approach, from many sides. not just one memo.

besides all that:

(2) which claim in the above enumeration of her misleading statements and actions, is incorrect?

Point is, if he's right, if he and his campaign are identifying actual, real, and verifiable LIES, EQUIVOCATIONS, and MISLEADS in her own dirty politics, where is the smear you accuse him of?

:popcorn:
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mythyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. p.s. I'm still waiting to see if you have anything to say about dirty campaining on her side
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. The Obama campaign routinely and broadly calls Clinton a liar
Edited on Sun Apr-13-08 05:06 AM by DemGa
“People have heard a lot of things that just aren’t true from the mouth of the First Lady, from the mouth of the former president, from the mouth of the campaign," said Robert Gibbs, Obama’s communications director.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0108/8002.html

I can collect and post those type of broad smears all day, but that would be silly. Anyone who cannot see a concerted effort here is not looking. Now Obama is crafty, but does outright and broadly call Clinton dishonest.

Q. Has she been truthful to voters about what she would do as president?

A. “No.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/27/us/politics/28q-aobama.html?_r=1&oref=slogin


“we're up against the idea that it's acceptable to say anything and do anything to win an election."

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10595150&fsrc=RSS

Obama responded: "Hillary's idea is that we should force everyone to buy insurance. But this is yet another issue where she is not being straight with the American people because she refuses to tell us how much she would fine people if they couldn't afford insurance."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/25/AR2007112501030.html

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mythyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. (1) what in the below memo is not misleading / a lie (2) has Hillary smeared
i love how all you acolytes dodge and hedge, duck and move


A history of misleading voters

Senator Clinton’s newly released White House schedules—showing a lack of candor on her NAFTA Record, her role in passing FMLA, and her role in key foreign policy decisions—are just the latest in what has become a legacy of misleading voters. On issue after issue, Clinton says one thing while her record says another.

Her Iraq vote. Clinton says she voted for diplomacy, while on the Senate floor at the time she said she was casting a “vote that might lead to war” and doing it “with conviction.”

Foreign Policy Experience. Clinton claims that she’s been “tested” on foreign policy and that she’s experienced in handling foreign crises. But her White House records show that she was consistently absent when critical decisions were being made, and that her trips abroad were largely ceremonial.

The Michigan and Florida primaries. Back when it suited her political purposes she said the Michigan primary “didn’t count for anything” and that she wasn’t leaving her name on the ballot to try to legitimize the results. But now that she desperately needs more votes, she’s doing just that. And despite her pledge not campaign in either state, she held two campaign events in Florida.

Fully vetted. Clinton openly tells voters that she’s been fully “vetted,” choosing to obscure from them the fact that she won’t release her tax returns, earmark requests, or the donors to the Clinton library.

Her position on NAFTA. Clinton tells Ohio voters that she has “been a critic of NAFTA from the very beginning.” Yet her own schedules show that as First Lady she attended at least four meetings to advocate for its original passage.

Her role in passing the Family and Medical Leave Act. Clinton credits herself with “helping to pass” the Family and Medical Leave Act as First Lady. But the 11,000 pages of schedules don’t contain a single mention of her involvement in the issue.

Obama’s religion. In a “60 Minutes” interview, Senator Clinton refused to confirm that Senator Obama is a Christian, even though she knows the facts.

Reverend Wright. Even though it has been reported yesterday that Clinton is pushing Senator Obama’s association with Reverend Wright in attempt to rattle superdelegates, Clinton refused to give a straight answer. She would only say that their campaign “has been making the case that I am the most electable” before shrugging and prompting the next question.

35 Years in Public Service. The oft-repeated Clinton claim that she has 35 years of public service experience is simply false. Fifteen of those years were spent at a law practice.
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ORDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
31. K-n-R if for no other reason than the barf chorus. LOL!
:kick:
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
32. The worst line from the clip? "I grew up in a church going family."
What a cheap shot.

How in the world can Hillary supports support her after that??????????

Now I know what so many hated the Clintons.

I do too.

She is a monster.
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. What's wrong with "I grew up in a church going family."?
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Because Obama did not and she is pointing that out.
cheap shot
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. She also points out that she was First Lady. Cheap shot?
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. no, why would you say that?
it is not unfair for her to mention her record as first lady.

It's a cheap shot for her to point out that Obama was raised by atheists.

Whose side are you people on anyway?
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
34. She's the weaker DEM. Thats why McInsane is joining her on this
The GOP is scared shitless over Obama.

Meanwhile, McLame is on his way to becoming a campaign finance criminal.
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Mobius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 04:55 AM
Response to Original message
37. The darkening of Obama photos
Edited on Sun Apr-13-08 04:59 AM by Mobius
to make him look more "black" pretty much did that for me.
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