So it seems that just about every Obama supporter I have encountered is 18 and above

[TK421]

slightly....and when I do encounter these individuals, they talk quite a bit about this hope and "change" that Obama is offering. When asked about this change ( personal experience, here ) as to what this "change" entails, well...they just-can't-give me a straight answer!

I never got the young mans name...and I probably never will. From what I understand from our conversation, he was from out of the area...Connecticut, I believe....

From one young persons standpoint: "I have lived through the Bush years, as many of us have, and it is time for something...different" ( this took place at the bar down from my job tonight, by the way )

Me : "What would you like to see different" I ask?

GoBot : "Well, the Iraq war has been going on for far too long, and it's time we bring back the troops...alive. Man, don't you see this whole war is a farce"?

Me : Yes...yes, I do, in fact..go on...( drinking my beer )

GoBot : " Yeah, well.. I know that Hillary has a plan for bringing the troops home, but I just don't trust her..you know?"

Me : No, I don't....what do you mean by that?

GoBot : "Well...her husband cheated on her, and she still stands by this guy after that? That's pretty sick, don't you think"?

Me : "I think we faced this problem before, and most true Democrats were sickened at the fact that this shit was brought up in the first place....and now, since we have two Democrats vying for the nomination, it would be expected that you would see this shit being flung around yet AGAIN....and back then, we didn't give a damn about it". Notice now that the Monica Lewinsky affair is being thrown around by the very same Democrats that supported Bill Clinton back then is being thrown in the face of Hillarys campaign....by MANY of the same people who supported Bill Clinton at that time?" Isn't that ironic?

The little fucker did NOT have an answer to that one, folks......

An actual conversation tonight at the bar that didn't last that long ( thankfully ) they probably would have flagged this kid...he couldn't hold his liquor, that is for sure

[flor de jasmim]

1. You should get out more.

[TK421]

3. Wasn't that explained in the OP?

It clearly stated I was at the bar

You should read more, perhaps....

[Hepburn]

62. What in the hell are you doing in a bar that allows people ...

... who are just slightly over 18?

[DemBones DemBones]

84. I could drink legally at 18 in my state. nt

[SemiCharmedQuark]

95. Except this isn't pre-1984 and the National Minimum Drinking Age Act has passed.

And the age is 21 now in every state in the union.

[Hepburn]

146. Well, I remember my Mom talking about drinking...

..."near beer" when she was in college in Ohio. Does any state allow those under 21 to have "full" drinking privileges?

[PetraPooh]

86. Excellent question, I notice it isn't being answered at all.

[roguevalley]

making it up, hepburn. no one in my state drinks at 21 and I'm sure

its true everywhere else. my niece took her friends and mother on a fun bus at 21 and did anchorage, alaska. She wore a triara spelling out bitch in rhinestones and made me a true believer. (I worship my niece.)

[roguevalley]

197. making it up, hepburn. no one in my state drinks at 21 and I'm sure

its true everywhere else. my niece took her friends and mother on a fun bus at 21 and did anchorage, alaska. She wore a triara spelling out bitch in rhinestones and made me a true believer. (I worship my niece.)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

2. I could relate a few anecdotes about equally idiotic HRC supporters

Or McCain supporters. But that wouldn't prove anything other than there are some dumb people in the world. And people who like to spin self aggrandizing yarns on the internets. :yawn:

[TK421]

5. yes...equal YAWN here, too

I hear you...I do..this is a lousy internet message board anyways...

Thanks for your yawn, though

[Hepburn]

64. So, if you don't like it here....

...leave already, OK? :hi: <-------- waving good-bye!

[TK421]

133. Oh...do I need your permission or blessing or something like that?

nah...

[frazzled]

4. I think you might have been at the bar a little too long

Your writing seems a little tipsy, if I might say.

And, oh yeah ... if you want to have intelligent conversation about politics, I'm not sure that bars are the place to do it.

Sleep it off, you'll feel better in the morning.

[TK421]

9. Ah! Could you point out where my writing is "tipsy"? pretty please?

I went to the bar after work ( for about an hour, not that it's any of your business, but thanks for your unwanted concern ).

Nothing to sleep off, here!!! But thanks anyway! I assure you, I will feel just dandy in the morning!

CHEERS! :D

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Symarip]

7. Young people suck

It's bad enough they can vote. We should just send them off to a war somewhere.

[TK421]

14. Hey! Not a bad idea!

Are you running for any kind of office, by chance? I'm sure the Obama Campaign could use a fine, young person like you!! Go for it!

[Symarip]

33. Hold on. I got something for you.

http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html

"I am honored to represent nearly 19 million New Yorkers, a thoughtful democracy of voices and opinions who make themselves heard on the great issues of our day especially this one. Many have contacted my office about this resolution, both in support of and in opposition to it, and I am grateful to all who have expressed an opinion.

I also greatly respect the differing opinions within this body. The debate they engender will aid our search for a wise, effective policy. Therefore, on no account should dissent be discouraged or disparaged. It is central to our freedom and to our progress, for on more than one occasion, history has proven our great dissenters to be right.

Now, I believe the facts that have brought us to this fateful vote are not in doubt. Saddam Hussein is a tyrant who has tortured and killed his own people, even his own family members, to maintain his iron grip on power. He used chemical weapons on Iraqi Kurds and on Iranians, killing over 20 thousand people. Unfortunately, during the 1980's, while he engaged in such horrific activity, he enjoyed the support of the American government, because he had oil and was seen as a counterweight to the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran."
<snip>

Man, wasn't 2002 a bitchin' year?

So... Who's the warmonger now? Y'know, when I was in the military and my friends were sent to Iraq in 2002, I don't remember a Senator from New York sticking up for my friends who had no say in Bush's oil crusade. Oh right, she's got a PLAN now. Hm, live and learn, I guess, after 4000 dead. No biggie.

Feel free to make an excuse for her actions. But in the end, the blood of my friends are on her hands, along with many other worthless Democrats and Republicans too chicken shit to stand up to a chimp.

[woolldog]

70. ouch.

Thank you for your service, Symarip.

[Symarip]

81. I appreciate that

It really wasn't my first choice to get out. I would have done a full 20 until this shit storm started raining on us.

[DJ13]

8. Take everything you imagine Clinton doing and add about 40% to it

Their policies arent very different, its the capability and willingness to follow through that makes Obama the better choice.

Or, bluntly, the Clintons are too entrenched with big moneyed interests to be taken seriously.

[PBS Poll-435]

11. Right...

So sad. BTW...need some land?

[DJ13]

17. Not from someone who bought a NY bridge

[PBS Poll-435]

19. How about a nice green lot next to

Barbie's Hyde Park Dream House?

[DJ13]

23. Im 50, Barbie dont do it for me

:eyes:

[PBS Poll-435]

27. Well..ok. No Barbie...

How about a 400% gain on an investment? Overnight. That alright?

[TK421]

18. How do you feel Obama will "follow through"?

Just curious here....

[DJ13]

31. He places a greater sense of priority on accomplishing his goals

Hillary is too politically savvy to care about accomplishing the agenda she promises in a campaign, knowing her supporters will believe any excuse she comes up with for failure after she wins office.

Go back and look at the platform Bill ran on in 1992, then look at how little of those proposals he really even tried getting passed after he became President.

[LisaM]

173. Go for it, name all his accomplishments

and, for the record, Hillary is not Bill.

[Ilithiad]

40. Capability

And what capability would Obama have in a republican controlled Congress?

[cui bono]

124. One of the things he is known for is bringing Republicans on board with his ideas.

[MagickMuffin]

138. What makes you think we would be losing seats?.?.?

If the Democrats win the WH, and a straight down ticket vote then we will have MORE members in Congress. Therefore who ever the Democratic nominee is will be able to get more legislation passed.

[Clintonista2]

12. My typical RL obama supporter encounters go like this:

Them: Vote Obama! He will bring hope and change!
Me: What "change" will he bring?
Them: He will bring change by bringing us together! And by inspiring us!
Me: But... what POLICY CHANGES will he bring? What will he change in relation to ISSUES?
Them: Uhh..ummm..uhhhhh


His supporters on DU are similar.

[TK421]

24. Well...I'm going to see what I have read here and draw my own conclusions

your post is noted, and I understand...but I am being serious here about this ( as this was an actual discussion I had tonight )

Just kidding....LOVED YOUR POST LIRWIN!!!! :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast:

I see the drivel coming out already...didn't take long, did it?

[PBS Poll-435]

26. Yeah....

It is sad...

I was a Richardson person before deciding that I liked Hillary all along.

Why can't Obama people think of the party? We must unite. They are hurting the party!

[Viking12]

172. Hannity, is that you?

[sudopod]

13. I see old people. nt

[TK421]

25. You see DEAD people....maybe Obamazombies?

[Tellurian]

30. The Obama supporters I've met

Have never earned a living for themselves for any length of time. Have never supported mortgages, car pmts, kids and ordinary house hold bills. Many of them are still living with their parents, because they're too busy having fun with their friends.

The Hope and change thing wears really thin coming from people who have never experienced responsibility.

[sudopod]

35. I enjoy lumping millions of people into stereotypes too.

It should be an Olympic sport. They could do it at the Beijing games, right between Curling and Fascism.

[Tellurian]

107. You can whine all you want.. and that isn't a sterotype..that is reality..

I take it you are what I described in that post.

[sudopod]

114. LOL

How old am I? What have I accomplished in my life? What is my terminal degree?

You don't know. You can't know.

In conclusion, well, you're clueless...about this subject, anyway. ;)

Welcome to the Internets, where all the business is serious.

[Tellurian]

117. Your subjective response provided the answer.. thanks..

[sudopod]

119. LOL WUT? nt

[Ilithiad]

45. SPOT ON!

Hope wont get you far on a car payment and a house payment and electric and phone bills...Obama's base is the younger generation who grasps at hope and not reality because that is what a young generation does...That is why hillary has strong support among an older generation because experience has taught them change comes gradually to life and most of the time not when we want...People want Obama now but is it wise? Is it wise to want change for change's sake? There must be wisdom when change is made and wisdom comes from EXPERIENCE.

[EmilyAnne]

166. That is simply not true.

[TexasLady]

147. I never had the urge to tell off another Duer until this post

you sound like all my right wing relatives, which are most of them.

I have tried SO hard to be fair and kind to Hillary's supporters here. I like most of them. BUT..

YOU just insulted my entire family.

Im sure that you will continue to do so because of this response.

What is THIN is my overworked underpaid husband. What is THIN is my budget. What is THIN is my patience for such a blanket judgement of a group of people.


Yeah, we are all typical idiots for Obama. All seven of us, four of which are old enough to vote. I would never insult Hillary supporters like you just did Obama supporters. But I'm sure that won't stop you.

[PVnRT]

167. Well said

I would respond to this worthless fucking troll, but it would just get deleted anyway.

[LisaM]

188. Well you can blame REAGAN for all of that.

The person to whom Obama ascribed as changing a party through ideas.

This is one thing I do not like about Obama. Reagan should never be mentioned in the same breath as anything positive. Just because people fell for his line does not give any credibility to what he supposedly accomplished (which was a worse world for all of us). His comments on Reagan were very disturbing. It's not OK, IMHO, to use your personality to effect change.

[damonm]

193. Wake up and get a grip.

It is a matter of unarguable FACT that Reagan changed the entire dialogue of American politics, whether we like it or not. This did not make him good; it made him effective at implementing his agenda. So effective, in fact, that we've been pathetically unable to answer reaganism for damn near 30 years.
"Reagan should never be mentioned in the same breath as anything positive", you say? Policy-wise, I agree, but you have to be utterly blind to history not to recognize the fact that he WAS a transformative figure, which is what Obama ACTUALLY SAID. To refresh your English, this means solely that Reagan CHANGED things, and does not imply praise of these changes. Hitler and Napoleon were ALSO transformative figures, but I can't think of too many sane people who would say the transformation was good.
And as to Reagan's accomplishments - while I agree with your asessment of a "worse world" - the fact that "people fell for his line" is precisely why he was able to do these things. It may not be OK with you "to use your personality to effect change", but too bad - it's the single most effective way to do it.

We have, in Barack Obama, a chance to begin the transformation of American politics from the cesspool of corporate control it's become thanks to reaganism, into something more closely resembling what the Founders had in mind - what Lincoln so eloquently described as "government of the people, by the people, and for the people".

[LisaM]

195. I understood entirely what Obama said. I don't need it disseminated.

The fact is that Reagan used personality to effect change. I don't think that's a valid method.

[Jed Dilligan]

207. How are you using "disseminated" and more importantly, "valid"

in this post?

Dictionary.com is your friend.

[damonm]

208. Well then, I guess

you didn't like JFK doing so...or MLK...or Ghandi...or Nelson Mandela...or Mikhail Gorbachev...or James Madison either, for that matter.

So since you don't like personality being used to effect change (despite its being extremely effective in that regard), what method(s) do YOU consider valid? Please support with examples.

[damonm]

211. Your silence is deafening....

[madwivoter]

185. Great generalization.

I think you need to get out more.

I'm an Obama supporter. I've been working since I was 16 and living on my own since I was 17. I have a car that's been paid off for 3 years. A mortgage. I pay all my bills on time (this is in thanks to my mad budgeting/accounting skilz if anyone needs advice :sarcasm:).

[damonm]

191. Sorry to burst your bubble and introduce you to reality,

But this Obama supporter is:
(a)46yo WM
(b)B.S. in Aerospace Engineering
(c)gainfully employed in the Aerospace Industry for 15 years
(d) owns a home
(e) just finished payments on one car, with one more year to go on another
(f) has 2 kids

And slamming hope & change wears really thin coming from someone who supports "more of the same" politics where nothing of substance gets done, corporate lobbyists continue to run the government, and ordinary Americans get screwed.

Clinton has shown me she's NOT with ordinary Americans by her vote for the bankruptcy bill in 2005.
Clinton has shown me how well she'll govern with this cluster-fuck of a campaign. If she can't organize well enough to win decisively when she had every advantage going in, how am I supposed to believe she'll be able to govern effectively?

[AirmensMom]

210. You haven't met me.

Or my husband. We've had two mortgages in our lifetime, several cars, along with their payments, we have 4 degrees between us, we have had professional careers, we raised two wonderful young independent women, we have known hunger, poverty, and disabling illness, and we both moved out of our parents' house at the age of 18 and never got any help from any of them. We sold our high school class rings so we could buy an outfit of clothes for our girls. We traded heirloom furniture for used beds for them. We added water to the soup more times than I can remember. We struggled and continue to struggle. Sometimes it was easier, sometimes not.

Yes, we support Obama. Yes, we have "experienced responsibility". And yes, I'm getting tired of your attacks on Obama and his supporters. Hope and change are not dirty words and I wish you and your ilk would stop ridiculing people who believe in them.

[gateley]

15. It's not just young Obama supporters.

When I was phoning for Biden, I got a young woman who told me -- enthusiastically -- that she was a Hillary Girl.

She said "I could never vote for Biden -- Did you know he's with the CFR?"

I said, actually, he's not. He's on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee - people often get the two confused.

Dead air. (I'm guessing she didn't know what either was -- was just repeating something she'd heard).

I said - How do you feel about the DLC? No response. (Again, got the impression she wasn't familiar with what it is)

Well, I'm voting for Hillary. Click.

[TK421]

29. In my workplace alone there is an overwhelming response for Obama

and with all their youth and energy, they still-can't-tell me WHY!!!!

Today, I heard a great deal about the war in Iraq from them....but this seems to be the big issue, nonetheless

[gateley]

34. I understand the point you're making,

but I attribute it more to youth (like my Hillary Girl) than anything else.

[TK421]

52. agreed...I see it

[gateley]

161. You could take a walk around my neighborhood

of adults, and still not find anyone who could cite policies, so I'm reassessing my inclination to think it was just the youth who are just "on the bandwagon." I'm guessing it would be all "we must stay in Iraq", or "we must get out of Iraq", "the country is going broke" -- broad strokes like that.

We have to remember that we're more into this than most people "out there".

:hi:

[PetraPooh]

97. Based on what I've read from you here, I think they probably do tell you why,

but either aren't listening or discount everything they say before they're finished. Seems entirely unfair and unreasonable to blame "the youth" for your thick headedness.

[TK421]

123. No...they just don't tell me why n/t

[Beregond2]

16. A good response:

"When you get older, you may find that forgiveness and commitment are more important than pride."

[SunsetDreams]

28. That is not a good response

that is an ageist response.


Depending on life experiences, a young person can be better equipped to make a sound and reasoned judgement, than an older person who may be set in their ways.

Depending on life experiences, an older person may be better equipped to make a sound and reasoned judgement, than a younger person who has yet to experience them.

It works both ways, nobody has a monopoly on sound and reasoned judgement.

[Ilithiad]

48. Age

In my youth I have made some pretty bad decisions and so did most of my friends...wisdom and good judgement comes with many years of life experience...youth just does not have the patience to understand why a certain decision was made on that it was made.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

69. And yet most of the racial slurs I hear come from my elders.

Is racism good judgment?

[DarienComp]

76. In 2004 John Kerry won 18-30 voters.

Bush won among every other age bracket.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

158. Correct.

[quakerboy]

74. Which is why we should Support

McCain? I think we have to address this if it is the argument in favor of one candidate. If anyone running is old enough to have life experience, it would be him. Similar to the Experience argument, as it were. Is there some point where a candidate can have too much life experience and wisdom? If Clinton trumps Obama on those grounds, how can you argue with any credibility that McCain doesn't trump Hillary the same way?

As I look at it, age has experience, youth has principal. As I age, and I see those around me, it concerns me greatly. So many give up their internal morality in favor of "just living". My dad, in my extreme youth or his relative youth, housed overflow families from the local homeless shelter in our extra bedroom and we spent many hours helping out at the shelter and similar places. Now he collects guns and lives in a 3 bedroom house that they just got, doing nothing but filling rooms with boxes of stuff. Wisdom or fear? Too many go the wrong way in our me based society. Age, wisdom, youth and poor judgment do not correlate so easily as you would seem to indicate. The only true connection is between humanity and failures and flaws. And the occasional enlightenment.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

78. Great post.

:toast:

Belated welcome to DU.

[quakerboy]

94. Thanks

Yevery onse and a wile I pop oat ov my snarkden and saye somepin series. Dunn Know tho.

[LisaM]

189. Look, everybody was young once

But not everyone has already been old, so I think that if an older person attributes something to experience, it is wise to listen.

I sincerely hope you live to a ripe old age and find this out for yourself.

[TK421]

32. That is a wise saying...thank you n/t

[last1standing]

20. Interesting. "Just about every Obama supporter" turns into one person.

Then "18 and above slightly" turns into someone old enough to be drinking at a bar with you (ie. 21 or older). So in one sentence you have two lies - good start.

Now after that are we really supposed to trust the rest of this story about some guy who happens to talk to a sad disgruntled Clinton supporter in a bar?

I don't think so.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

21. I hope he didn't run up a tab like Hillary's been doing.

[TK421]

42. What else have you people got to run on these days?

Did you want Reverend Wright to go away so quickly? My oh my...... how THAT won't happen

[Starbucks Anarchist]

Aside from delegates, money and states won?

And if we're going to base a candidate's supporters by only looking at one of them, how about this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5289500#top

The worst stuff that TSed idiot wrote was deleted, but the OP is just a taste of it.

According to your logic, it would be okay for me to assume Hillary's supporters are bitter racists because of this one person (and a couple of other similarly minded peeople on the board) -- which, before you explode with faux outrage -- I do not believe.

[TK421]

59. If you're posting a thread from DU in order to "enlighten" me...you're wasting your time

but could you post a thread from...I don't know...let's say, a news source that you, and only YOU find reliable...then we can deal

[Starbucks Anarchist]

63. I posted the thread to counteract the logic in your OP.

Namely, broadbrushing an entire group of supporters based on one or a small handful of experiences.

Whenever Hillary supporters or Obama supporters do that, it's regrettable all around.

I don't quite understand the hostility you have throughout this thread. Honestly, does it have to do with the frequent drinking? And how old are you, anyway? I've seen your picture, and you looked pretty young, from what I remember.

[TK421]

79. Your thread failed...I'm sorry

and I only had a few beers tonight...I'm quite sober at this time, thank you though. There is no hostility on my part, per say ( although this post sure has seemed to brought out the beasties tonight )

I'm 32...how old are you?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

83. "Go Bot" "Obamites" "Obamabot" "Little fucker"

Words as sweet as the singing of the angels themselves.

[TK421]

89. You know the angels personally, too....don't you?

Did St. Obama give you a formal introduction to them? :rofl:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

93. I like jokes too! Did you hear the one about the 32 year old railing against young people?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

155. LOL!

[sudopod]

121. I am as old as humanity.

In 28,000 years, I will become the God-Emperor of Mankind.

Now THAT'S experience!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

139. I'll be 28 this month.

And I'm just pointing out your frequent drinking that you always post about in the Lounge.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x7159654

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x7100204

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x7523259

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x7272668

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x7010096

That's just a few of them. I just assumed the hostility was directly linked to the drinking. :shrug:

[JeffR]

22. Someone may accuse you of inventing this, but I don't. And

it's a damned interesting story. Remember, though, that this is just a guy you met, and though you may have met other people in his demographic who are also Obama supporters, some Obama supporters are jaded, middle-aged, white, long-haired, graying leftists. Trust me on this.

A lot of Bobby's supporters way back when were too young to really understand about politics. But they knew what they wanted. It's absurd to compare Obama to Bobby, but this is an inevitable result of a charismatic candidate arriving at a time when the way of things sucks badly.

Instead of writing this kid off as a "little fucker", maybe you should have talked to him about what you think, and why. Maybe you could have helped him make sure that he thought deeply about things, instead of viscerally. But maybe you could also have learned a little hunger for change from his untutored enthusiasm, too.

When I was a kid, I thought I had something to contribute to changing a crippled system. Maybe he does too, though his yearnings are yet inchoate.

I remember a system that dissed kids even when it pandered to their allowance money. I didn't like that system. I still don't.

[TK421]

49. It's NOT invented, JeffR....I've been home over an hour now from the place

the person who I was speaking to was, indeed there ( I assure you, he was NOT a figment of my imagination...which many Obamites seem to have a great deal of these days ) We DID have this very discussion ( I typed it as best as I could word-for-word...but it is fairly accurate ) I am a bit disturbed right now at some of these posts....I gotta tell 'ya.

Would have talked to the kid more if I could...he had some friends at the bar, too that left when he had to leave ( I suppose for a ride home, I don't know ) If anything, I'm glad that someone as young as he was is genuinely interested in politics these days ( all of a sudden, politics is hip...go figure ).

I agree with you on the allowance system...and I never had an allowance

[JeffR]

55. I'm wary of everyone, because to varying degrees lots of people

of all ages are ill-informed. But politics had better be hip, or hip again, because lives depend on that. Engagement or revolution. That's the binary choice to turn America around.

He may have been a doofus. I don't know. But we had better get young people involved in politics ASAP. And along with the encouragement, give them the benefit of what we've seen. A lot of Democratic (and democratic) group memory is about to be lost. The kids are the only game in town. Let's help them as best we can insofar as they want to listen. (When I was their age, I didn't want to listen, but I still did.)

[TK421]

61. Thanks for your sane response...I'm not quite sure how I should respond to it

because I'm not used to that thing here anymore....let me just toast you

:toast:

[JeffR]

68. Thanks

I get impatient with the younger generation, too, and despondent sometimes. It's about them, ultimately, and that can make them even more exasperating sometimes. But it's on them, and on those of us who still care, to do the possible and dare the impossible.

[Bongo Prophet]

136. Now THIS post is what wisdom born of experience looks like. Thanks JeffR

I have no desire to jump into this abusive mess, and I was just about to back away slowly...your post made this thread worthwhile.
It was a teaching moment missed, if indeed it did exist.
Cheers.

[Warren Stupidity]

144. Nice try Jeff but I suspect it won't work. nt.

[NewHampshireDem]

36. Epic Fail

Sorry, but most of the Obama supporters I know are older than I am, and I'm in my late 30's. I'd tell you about all the HRC supporters I know, but I don't know any.

But I was down at the bar the other night and this woman walks up to me ...

No, sorry, I just can't pull #$$%^ outta my rear.

[TK421]

44. You seemed to do a good job pulling that reply of yours out of your rear

what's to stop you now? Keep going!

You seem to doubt that this was an actual conversation I had tonight with a young Obama supporter...fact is, despite your reply, it actually DID take place..

You see? There really IS life outside of DU! Don't you get it now? Has it sunk in? GOOD

[JeffR]

46. Why not respond to substantive questions, then?

Can you?

[TK421]

54. Do you mean like post #37? I already responded to THAT one

so what "question" would you like me to answer? :shrug:

[JeffR]

57. You did

and thanks.

[anigbrowl]

37. Since you described your antagonist as a 'gobot'

I think it's safe to say that this OP is just one o those masturbatory 'nobody changes THIS mind' posts...you could equally well substitute 'anti-war kid', 'global warming evangelist' or whatever and the tone would be much the same. Cynical skeptics are so proud of themselves, but actually there's no risk in saying 'I don't believe it'.

[TK421]

58. Ummmmm...did you say "masturbatory"?

What the fuck...are...you...talking...about?

The OP was about a conversation..I had...with a young person....about their decision to vote for Obama....where in the un-holy fucking...MAD-ASS universe did you come up with a response like that?

By the way...as far as "GoBot" is concerned...I just took GoBama and merged it with Obamabot...it's what happens, is all. GoBots were also popular in the '80s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobots

[Starbucks Anarchist]

154. It's not a literal reference.

The poster means your OP was self-congratulatory in its description and tone, as well as its overall message.

[MadBadger]

39. Is this just one supporter? Or were you serious about the "Just About Every Obama Supporter" part?

[TK421]

67. Present

[MadBadger]

77. What a childish little fool you are.

[TK421]

80. Ahemm...Ok

PRESENT

[GarbagemanLB]

41. Wow, so only the youth vote got Obama to where he is today?

[SunsetDreams]

43. I'm wondering a few things here...

Why did you refer to them as GoBot?


A person who "couldn't hold his liquor", maybe that's where his "NOT having an answer" to your long explanation comes from. Usually people who can't hold their liquor, in other words may be drunk, cannot grasp the transmission of conversation.

[JeffR]

50. delete

because DU has enough snark

[TK421]

72. Yes...he ...umm, seemed to be having girl problems tonight!

:D judging by some snippets of conversation from his buddies at the bar, there was an argument..oh, well. He was fine, he seemed to be with it, just a bit down is all. Nice guy, all in all though

[SunsetDreams]

75. TK

if you know he was "just a bit down" and he was a "nice guy, all in all"...don't you think your post is a little, well rather hard on someone who may have issues right now?

[TK421]

82. Umm, I'm sure this person isn't aware of what I posted here

I didn't dislike him, it was just that he had absolutely nothing to say on his end :shrug:

But I won't deliberately down someone in a situation like that, if that's what you mean

[SunsetDreams]

98. That may well be true

but not being aware of it, still doesn't make it okay to do IMO

[Eurobabe]

47. This poster is violating DU rule, calling other supporters names: GoBot

Suggest you read Skinner's post from yesterday.

Mods Alert.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

51. That's not a rule.

It's just a suggestion on how not to be an asshole.

[TK421]

85. Thank you 48percenter for pointing that out to the rest of us....

:thumbsup:

[Mooney]

53. Why so bitter?

[TK421]

87. Me? Not bitter at all...how are you tonight?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

56. And there's a whole crew of Hillary supporters at work that call Barack "Osama"

They speak in hushed voices about how is middle name is Hussein. So do we really have to go there? Some guy you met in a bar is hardly the thirteen million + voters that cast their ballot for Obama.

You'd have to ask *young* people about why they are voting for Clinton. I doubt you'd find much of a difference.

[TK421]

88. I'm not saying a guy I met in the bar is representative of the voice of millions, am I?

Have I said that? Have I? NO...I didn't...It was one experience I had tonight I shared on this board ( which maybe I shouldn't have...this is getting to be a fucking headache ). But SHIT...I don't give a flying fuck if the guys middle name is Hussein, to be honest. I want this whole thing to end NOW

[SemiCharmedQuark]

100. No, you're just implying that all Obama supporters are just young people who

don't know anything about anything.

[TK421]

101. Oh, you're implying that I'm implying that blah, blah, blah

I posted about a conversation I had with one ( yeah, ONE ) young Obama supporter...now, that shouldn't have you worried too much, should it? :wtf:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

102. What's the title of this thread again?

And what about the references to the "Obamites" the "Gobots"? Those would be plural nouns you're using.

I'm not worried. I just find it highly amusing that while attempting to paint an entire group of people as immature morons, you are resorting to immature tactics.

[Taxmyth]

104. If Senator Obama is the candidate for President

the GOP will be using their standard term for him that they are using already, B. Hussein Obama. They won't be using hushed voices. And they already also call him Osama. Now maybe the Hillary supporters you talk about are GOP Plants. Or it may be that they're just looking for a flame war. Or maybe they are being proactive in helping Senator Obama's supporters address these taunts from the opponents supporters.

For any young people who have not really experienced a heated election cycle it does become disheartening to see these type smears used frequently and without justification. Don't lose faith if the Democratic Party candidate and their supporters are smeared, taunted, lied about, suffer from innuendo and false accusations, is attacked with sexist and racist comments and just about any other bad thing you can think of. This will happen on TV, radio, newspapers, websites and even in your own home.

Don't get turned off to the process and don't let it turn your thoughts and actions towards less interesting and important endeavors.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

105. Thanks.

I'm going to support the Democratic nominee no matter what and I hope that they will do the same. I think they will. It think everyone is just on edge now. My point was really that one, two or twenty select people do not represent an entire group of people.

Last election cycle, I didn't really have a dog in the fight, so to speak. I was on DU, but I avoided GDP. The light at the end of the tunnel is that I do remember *after* the Primaries GD and GDP were pretty awesome. Everyone had one common enemy and one common goal. I look forward to that again.

[DarienComp]

60. Go to bed, old man.

I can do ageism too.

[TK421]

90. Hey...I'm not an old man

and why bring ageism into this? I was only posting a run-in with a young Obama supporter

You find that offensive, do you?

[DarienComp]

96. No, your tone offends me.

As does your ageist assertion that only naive young people support Obama.

[TK421]

99. I'm sorry...I did not mean to offend, but it was one person I had a conversation with

if any of their friends, or friends of those friends have the same mindset..then yes, I find THAT disturbing

[DarienComp]

106. That's fine, but you started the post with a big generalization.

You said that it seems EVERY Obama supporter you meet is only 18 or so, and that none of them can give you a good reason for their support besides hope and change. Not one Obama supporter you had a conversation with, EVERY Obama supporter.

I do apologize for snapping at you, but you must understand how young people might take offense at that. Hell, in 2004, we were the only age bracket that John Kerry won, and now we're being told that we're stupid and naive.

[TK421]

108. As I stated in a reply to another post, most of the people I work with

younger ( 19-22 ) are for Obama...and that was included in my inadvertent generalization in the OP...should have considered that, but the one reply came well after that. I understand how younger people would take offense, but this one instance bothered me.

So I'm beginning to understand the vitriol spewed here.....there seems to be a huge misunderstanding, and all I've been doing is replying to hate with hate...call it quits.

[DarienComp]

113. thanks for acknowledging it.

and certainly, there are some young people out there who are very naive indeed... again, sorry for the rudeness on my part... everyone's nerves are pretty frayed here at the moment...

[TK421]

125. Ughh...I think maybe it was I who was rude here

:toast:

[LittleClarkie]

65. I'm 44.

When I went down to HQ, it looked like a mixed bag of old and young and male and female and black and white and hispanic.

We were quite the motley crew.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

66. I'm a twenty four year old Hispanic woman

I'm doubly not supposed to be voting for Obama. But then I'm under thirty, so I'm not supposed to vote for Clinton either. I guess I should just stay home.

[TK421]

103. NO! Don't stay home, go out and vote! I'm saying nothing of the sort there!

do you people read in alternate dimensions or something?

[cottonseed]

71. I bet he walked away thinking, "what a stupid old fool".

Even that little fucker probably wasn't so stupid as to think we never cared about Bill spooting all over interns. He was probably smart and sober enough to know he defended the Clintons because he was a true democrat.

[Egnever]

92. wow great line!

He was probably smart and sober enough to know he defended the Clintons because he was a true democrat.

[TK421]

110. And what is truly amusing about that episode with old Bill was that

I distinctly recall the vast majority of Democrats not giving a shit about it when it happened then, either...but surprisingly enough, it has re-surfaced here in the primaries!

I find that one intriguing....especially since every Democrat I know was sick and tired of hearing about the crap Rush Limbaugh was jerking off over with this fiasco...and here we go again with Bills penis

[nsd]

73. What a stupid post. /nt

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[goletian]

91. the beer drinkin dems - nt

[TK421]

112. Well....three beers, but they were good ones

:toast:

[Steely_Dan]

109. Dear TK421...

This issue of the youth vote and Obama has been written about before. Much of the subject is just under the table.

I admire your post. Of course, you are being pummeled by the "Obama Youth."

Let's see...

You've been called a "fucktard."
You're being called childish...
You've been accused of being drunk...
You've been called a "fucking idiot."

This is what youth does. They fire from the hip without thinking. They haven't got control over their emotions...and often their passion over-rides their reason.

That's okay...we all were that way when we were young.

And of course, they will deny all of this because (just like we did at that age), they neither see or understand because the advantage of age, which brings wisdom, is not yet a part of their character. Anyway, who didn't think that they had all of the answers when THEY were young?

The only sadness I feel is the sadness of knowing that they are in for a huge disappointment. And...we may lose their support from the resulting cynicism.

You can't speak rationally with the Obama Youth because they think you're a fucktard. They won't hear you after that.

-P

[TK421]

115. Thank you for your reply...when I saw the "dear" part, I thought you were California Peggy!

but thank you....I do understand :thumbsup:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

129. Shouldn't you point out that it was *you* who called an Obama supporter fucktard not the other way

around?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

118. Did you miss where the OP cheerfully called his companion "Little Fucker"?

"The little fucker did NOT have an answer to that one, folks......"


So "Little Fucker" is intelligent adult speak but "Fucktard" is dumbass kid speak.

and

"Childish fool" is what a stupid youth says but "Are you 14? You sure as hell sound like it!" is a mature response.

Either calling names and questioning ages are mature things to do or they are immature things to do. You can't have it both ways. Even if you are over thirty.
And if your response is "Well he started it", then I think that speaks louder than anything about the maturity level you're at.

[Steely_Dan]

148. Apparently...

I must have struck a nerve.

You are absolutely correct. No one should be referring to other dems that way.

But my point still stands...

There is little doubt that most of the younger Obama supporters here DO fire from the hip. Their answers generally lack substance. Instead of intelligent responses, they tend to just tell you to "fuck off."

And what is so wrong about questioning age (maturity)? Okay, I'm an old guy (50)...I admit it. Are you going to deny the fact that we gain wisdom with age? Does this make us smarter than the youth of today? Of course not. But it does mean that we have experienced more and "tend" to have a perspective based on that experience.

I'm as progressive as I was when I was in my twenties. I have not lost my idealism or "hope." But I have a measured cynicism that didn't exist when I was younger. I suppose that the only way "youth" will understand this is to actually live through it.

-P

On Edit:

I might add that there seems to be a lot of gloating concerning Obama's success. Some have even said that they can't wait to rub Clinton supporter's faces in it once Obama has the nomination. Are you going to deny that this is an example of immaturity? Many of us when we were young, did not understand the importance of humility in victory as well as defeat. Everyday I read examples here of extreme immaturity. Some of the comments make me cringe and recoil from the vicious nature of each "fuck off" or "you're a fucking idiot." Both sides do it...but there is no doubt in my my mind (or any observer) that a vast majority of these kinds of responses come from the Obama side. If nothing else, the Obama Youth are alienating an important resource. But it matters not to them...they are bucking authority, the establishment, just like I did.

-P

[PVnRT]

169. Selective reading, perhaps?

Plenty of Clinton's supporters refuse to post substantive comments either. Strange you're not concerned about that.

[Steely_Dan]

171. You're Wrong...

I am concerned about that. I want both candidates to be more open about their policies and where they are going to take this country. I don't support either candidate. I think they are both political poison for the Dems. They are not bad people...I don't hate them. I just want a Dem in the White House. I hope one of them can do just that. But I have my doubts. I suppose that makes me evil in your eyes. Sorry.

-P

[cui bono]

126. TK is the one who called someone a fucktard, see #10

and s/he called the person s/he was speaking to in the bar a little fucker, perhaps that little fucker sensed the arrogance and condescension?

I guess you can't speak rationally to people who slam Obama because they think you're a fucktard. They won't hear you after that. Or maybe the OP is younger than the little fucker.

[TK421]

132. MOMMMYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:eyes:

response to post #6

[cui bono]

204. Your point is.... ?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

128. Wait a minute! Apparently *only* the OP used the word "Fucktard"

How crazy is that!

Are you going to come back and yell at him?

[TK421]

131. Oh, I think you meant the reply to post #6

the person who insinuated that I made up the story of the discussion

Yeah, you're right....I did call them a fucktard

[Warren Stupidity]

153. "gobot" "little fucker"

The OP started out with the name calling. By the way, at 56 am I still an Obama Youth?

[Steely_Dan]

159. Good For You

Please read post 148

[Warren Stupidity]

160. Your point doesn't stand at all.

The OP initiates a broad brush smear of Obama supporters, it seems we are all yutes and gobots and little fuckers, invents a typical conversation with us to prove how dumb we are, but those of us who object to the OP's idiocy are at fault. Did you have a point? Even the OP wants his post locked.

[Steely_Dan]

170. Thanks for your response...

I think he stated many many times that this was one example...one conversation. Yes, he implies that he sees a lot of that, but so do I. Maybe you don't...that's fine. We tend to see only what we want to see.

You are not all idots, yutes, gobots and little fuckers...really.

He invented this conversation? I happen to think he actually had that conversation. I know, because I have had this conversation more than once with college students that I work with. I really don't think he was calling YOU dumb...nor am I. Try not to take it so personally. The OP's idiocy? Really? He brings up a conversation he has with a young Obama supporter and you automatically assume it is a made up incident in order to put you down. I don't think so. I think he was just explaining his concern...just as I have.

Yeah, I have a point. But apparently you missed it. I'll tell you what. When time permits later today, I will write a little essay on the subject and post it. Maybe I can explain it better there.

No worries.

-P

[Hippo_Tron]

116. TK421, you do realize that's how most "swing voters" cast their vote in the General Election

They voted for Bush in 2004 because they "trusted" him more than Kerry to be commander in chief. If you asked them why, they probably couldn't give you a rational answer. Swing voters vote irrationally. That is why Obama will have a much easier time winning them over than Clinton.

I understand why a lot of hardcore Democrats, many of them on this board, love Hillary and are distrustful of Obama. Hillary talks in policy wonk senate-speak and Democrats love that. Hell I enjoy listening to Hillary talk and I worked my ass off for Obama. Obama speaks in vague generalities and that's exactly what the electorate loves.

Time and again the base of the Democratic party has nominated policy wonks because they like policy wonks and the electorate has time and again rejected them. Voters want to hear about "Hope and Change" even if you can't tell them what exactly it means. They don't care what it means.

[TK421]

122. Again, I apologize for the OP

It does seem like a generalization, but I am only referring to the person I spoke to tonight as well as my co-workers....as I said, part of it could have been worded better

Not meant to be taken as all young people are stupid, but I understand your post as well

[Hippo_Tron]

130. It's not just young people, and honestly I have no doubt your story is true

We are Democrats and we vote very rationally. Kerry was the obvious rational choice in 2004 because he was better on the issues for everyone who isn't the wealthiest 2% of the country.

But again, most voters are not rational and that's why there is a Republican Party and frankly that's why they have won more elections in the past few decades. Republicans understand that voters aren't rational and so they play on their irrational instincts.

Every so often Democrats pick up on this and we win as well. The last time was indeed Bill Clinton in 1992. I'm sure you've seen this video before, but it's just an example of how brilliantly Clinton was able to play on the irrational tendencies of voters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ffbFvKlWqE

Obviously the woman asking the question didn't know jack about economics but neither did most of the people watching the debate. Clinton didn't even answer the damn question. But he brilliantly told stories about how he knows people by their names that have lost their jobs to convey the message that he really cares about working people. He didn't talk about how he was going to solve their problems in specific details, he just conveyed the message that "I care".

Poppy on the other hand looked like an absolute buffoon because he tried to tell the woman she was wrong and that you shouldn't have to have been personally affected to care. And the funny thing is that the woman was indeed wrong. FDR certainly wasn't hit personally by the great depression and he was very capable of caring about the plight of others. Anybody that thinks rationally would agree with Poppy in this case.

But voters don't think rationally and Clinton resoundingly won the debate and went on to win the election. And it wasn't because he gave long speeches about how he was going to specifically solve peoples' problems. It's because he simply convinced enough people that he cared about them.

My point is that I'm sure Hillary's supporters can give you incredibly long explanations about how she has the best resume, the best policies, etc. But when it comes to November voters just don't think like that. When they pick their candidates they have one sentence answers as to why and often that one sentence is something ridiculously vague like "He cares about me" or "I trust him more".

I will vote for Hillary if she is the nominee even though I prefer Obama. But if Obama is the nominee, I hope that Democrats will come to terms with the fact that Obama talks in emotional rhetoric instead of policy wonk because that's how you win. I also hope that if Hillary is the nominee she will pick up on these tactics as well.

[BooScout]

120. Unfortunately that's also the type of responses I get....

From Obama Supporters much older than your friend in the bar. No one is able to go much further than 'hope and change'.....ohhhhhh and he give them tingles down their spines.:eyes:

[TK421]

127. I understand what you're saying, but please understand that the OP

was poorly worded...it seems some here think I am jumping down the throats of "every" young person who votes for Obama, and that is definitely not the case here.

I encountered one person who didn't have a clue, and it set me off....MY bad, and I suppose I shouldn't have let it happen. You met the people who got the tingles, too? Some people I met shook like they were possessed! :D

[cali]

134. I don't believe one word

of your tale. Sorry, it just doesn't ring true.

[TK421]

135. Then if you say it didn't happen, I suppose it didn't....

uh...no, I didn't mean any of that, you can tell me I didn't hold a conversation with someone when I damn well know I did, then I guess that your version of reality doesn't hold water.

But thanks for the input...if that was input

[TK421]

137. self-alerted request to lock this thread

thats enough

[Warren Stupidity]

145. It doesn't work that way.

Your shit is exposed and we get to comment until we get bored with it. You don't get to decide you've had enough and get the thread locked. You can of course step away from the keyboard.

[DemVet]

140. Ask John Kerry how reliable the 18-24 demographic is.

Not very.

[book_worm]

163. actually they turned out in record numbers in 2004

do some checking.

[DemVet]

209. But not near enough to carry him over the top.

Do some checking.

Kerry was supposedly going to win on the strength of the 18-30 voter...they didn't come out in near the number it was thought they would.

[Asgaya Dihi]

141. The little fucker? GoBot?

It amazes me that neither the Clinton campaign nor their supporters realize that this is a decent part of why they are losing. You want the young to look at things from your perspectives but it's all insults and name calling. Last night there was another thread trying to sell Hillary's role in a speech in China and when that didn't go over well due to "and he's got a speech" they got belligerent and started in on how all of these younger women just don't understand the past and need an education.

Well, that won them some fans, you think? On second thought, probably not. Just convinced the younger ones that the older ones were out of touch and made them wonder if they had kids at risk here, it's not as simple as that.

The aggression was what turned her from a competitor into a clear second place candidate and the aggression has been behind her fall in the polls since the first 3am ad lost it's short term effect. It's been a clear downhill slide since and all they can do it seems is to get more aggressive and more belligerent. The public in general might respond to it, the repubs might, but dems don't tend to respond well to aggression and tearing the other down rather than building yourself up. Running a general election kitchen sink campaign against another dem in the primary was a bad idea to start with and it isn't getting any better.

If they don't like what they are seeing in the Clinton campaign rather than dealing with them as "the little fucker" also known as GoBot maybe you should try telling them why they should care, show them something to like instead of more to resent.

[MaineDem]

142. I hope ALL supporters are 18 or above.

It would be nice if they could vote.

PS. I was a bit perturbed by "the little fucker" comment, too. Too bad it came at the end of your OP.

[Warren Stupidity]

143. vapid hate filled content free idiocy

'little fucker' 'gobot' and all the subsequent mega dittos from fellow Clinton supporters. What a sorry post, what a sorry thread.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

149. I have had similiar conversations with young O folks myself.

They have not one answer for any of Obama's policies other then, "he's against the Iraq War and will end it"

ask about his economic or healthcare policies and they tell me about, "hope and change"

[Starbucks Anarchist]

151. It's "other than," not "other then."

[Warren Stupidity]

152. "he's against the Iraq War and will end it"

Gee that kind of works for me.

[mindfulNJ]

177. Perhaps you should inform them

that in reality there isn't a dime's worth of difference in their policies (meaning Clinton's and Obama's)

That being the case I'll take a little hope and change. (I'm a 48 year old woman BTW)

[madrchsod]

150. "The little fucker did NOT have an answer to that one, folks......"

insulting someone to prove your point.....

[OzarkDem]

156. They're kids

they don't know what the hell is going on. Obama is just a fad for them, like a new brand of soft drink or video game.

No one will take them seriously until they prove they know what they're talking about.

[snooper2]

157. Maybe...

You should spend less time in the high school parking lot...What are you doing there anyway, strange behavior, somebody may call the police on you...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[book_worm]

162. you obviously have a lot of hostility inside you "gobots" "little fucker"

try seeking professional help maybe it will make you do something positive for your candidate and not cut down her opponents supporters. I'm 44 and support Obama, prior to that I supported Edwards. Obviously since he has won more than twice as many contests as Hillary he has supporters across all demographics.

[PVnRT]

164. Ain't no evidence like anecdotal evidence

Heaven forbid that we have a candidate that inspires the young to get involved. We should just do what the smart grownups like you tell us to.

Of course, your tone, calling the guy a "little fucker," speaks volumes about what you think of anyone who doesn't support your candidate.

[book_worm]

165. one young person and he labels all of us.

[DerekJ]

168. What is the cutoff age for being young?!!

No honest... up until 25 ?!! 29?!!

[LisaM]

174. Obama thinks his own generation is too old to deserve anything

So how are people a couple of years older than he supposed to feel?

Seriously, he said that the day of the Boomer (of which he is one) is OVER. That is completely ridiculous. Nobody over 47 is of value? This has already infected our workplace. I have a friend in her mid fifties who recently applied for a job at my firm. It was a filing job, she had the exeperience, they gave her a phone interview, and ended up hiring a young guy who came from a hardware store who can't possibly have mirrored her experience after she'd come and interviewed in person.

How are people in their late forties on up going to be validated by Obama? You must understand why there is resentment. When Bill Clinton ran, he was younger than Obama is now, but he didn't set out to marginalize anyone who was older than he was.

[DerekJ]

175. "Obama thinks his own generation is too old to deserve anything"

Link?!!

Tell me when did Obama say that anyone older than him doesn’t deserve anything.

The minute you do, I will concede.

Edit: Typo

[LisaM]

176. Here you go.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/21/weekinreview/21broder.html?_r=1&oref=slogin


Welcome to Camp Hillary!

[DerekJ]

178. WHERE does he say "his own generation is too old to deserve anything".

Give me Obama's words, not Broader Opinion.

[LisaM]

179. Oh please. He's a late Boomer.

He has consistently told boomers to "get over themselves". Did he exactly SAY "no one older than I deserves anything?" Of course not, but he has certainly implied that the world now belongs to people 47 and younger.

I'm guessing you're younger than 47 and don't see this (with his campaign, OR in the workplace).

[DerekJ]

180. So you failed to produce evidence for your own allegations.

Now before I start dissecting your hypocrisy. And prove how disingenuous you are.

Let’s look at the sentence you have provided: "Get over themselves" that you have stretched to "don't deserve anything".

Provide me with source, and the context for this sentence.


Thanks

[LisaM]

181. There are other articles like this out there. Do your own research.

I already said he didn't say those exact words. But the implication is quite clear.

I'm guessing that not only are you younger than 47, you're probably younger than 30.

I am two years older than Obama and I feel completelely marginalized by his campaign.

[DerekJ]

182. Don't deflect.

When you make an allegation the burden of proof lies with you not me. The necessity of proof lies with he who complains.

Provide me with the exact quotation of Obama saying "Baby boomers need to get over themselves" and provide it in context please.

[LisaM]

183. Why? So you can tell me I didn't put in the punctuation you liked?

And I'm not deflecting. I fee that this is an issue. He is pandering to the youth vote and marginalizing older voters. I prefer someone who speaks to voters of all ages. He made a lot of remarks about baby boomers before some of them started endorsing him, at which time he ratcheted back. He also insulted Tom Hayden, though Tom Hayden was gracious enough to endorse him anyway. I would be proud to be called a "Tom Hayden Democrat" and I really don't like that it was thrown out as a negative. Heck, I'd be proud to be called an FDR Democrat, even though he was before my time, too.

[DerekJ]

184. LisaM, you said Obama dissed Baby Boomers and said and you quoted him "Need to get over themselves"

You used this quote to insinuate that Obama thinks Baby Boomers "don't deserve anything".

And you are using both quotes to proclaim that Obama is "pandering to the youth vote and marginalizing older voters."

Provide me with a link to any of the quotes please. And provide it in context.

It's really that simple.

Please prove that young guy to be a total fool, and show me the wisdom of the elders.

[LisaM]

187. I don't think anyone on this board is a total fool.

Look, Obama himself is a Baby Boomer. I didn't write, or title, the article I linked to, but presumably whomever wrote it got the quote from somewhere.

Besides, what do you mean, "in context?" Of what? You won't tell me your age, you won't agree that Obama is a boomer, yet trying to appeal mostly to a post-boomer generation, you didn't comment on the example of ageism in the workplace, and so on.

My caucus had, for example, a group of older women who have worked hard in the precinct for years. They generally supported Hillary, and were shouted down and disrupted by the Obama people, most of whom live in the apartments in our neighborhood and presumably are only there for a few years (I am in neither group). I saw that these kids, while well meaning and passionate about their candidate, had little time or inclination to respect these women who've done the grunt work for our district Dems for years, and had carefully crafted a platform that the caucus goers didn't want to listen to or vote on. I felt that these women were not treated well. They were not given much of a chance to speak (even though the rules called for it) and no one seemed inclined to listen anyway. It was a very sorry situation. These women were not old enough to be put out to graze. They were hardworking, dedicated women who had been toiling thanklessly for years and are not basically being told their efforts aren't wanted, thanks.

If you are looking for me to find an exact quote of Senator Obama saying, "I feel that Baby Boomers need to get out of the way and make way for young blood in the workplace", I am not going to find one. But I am commenting on what I see all around me and referring to articles other people have written about Obama's take on the boomers.

[DerekJ]

192. Let me tell you why you will never find that quote.

The said quote is not a quote but an editorialization by the author. It’s an opinion piece, not a fact peace. And if you were to read through it carefully, you will find that the author has failed to produce any evidence for his allegations.

Look LisaM, You’ve either built your resentment to Obama based on your misread for that Op-ed, and thus, our conversation will lead you reevaluate your stance against him, based on the fact that the quote doesn’t exists, and consequently all what you have built on it is automatically false.

Or, you already harbor resentment for him for some other reason, and you are trying to find some rationale to justify your stance. You will scour the internet to find editorials that support your prejudice, and because you want to believe your preconceived notions about Obama, you will find no fault with those hit pieces.

There are Op-eds about Obama being a Muslim, Christian, anti-Christ, anarchist, terrorist, all at the same time. Just because the articles exist doesn’t mean they true, even if they’re published by the Time. If this is case, nothing I will say will change your mind.

Your experience with some young Obama supporters does not constitute evidence as to him marginalizing the elders, or the Baby boomers. All it says, that parents need to teach their children to better respect those who are older than them. Something we lack in North America.

You wanted to know my age. I’m 29 years old LisaM. And I’ll leave you to judge for yourself from what you have read in our conversation if those young Obama supporters (Including me) have no grasp of the facts, kool-aid drinkers, Messiah followers, cult worshipers, or they actually know how to reason, read, cut through the B.S, and are able to have justifications for their support.

[LisaM]

194. I know that it was an opinion piece. However, it was the first thing

I read (about a year ago) that started framing how I felt about him. I did not like that he created a divide between "Tom Hayden Democrats" and other Democrats. I felt that it was unwarranted and a false distinction, to boot. Just because idealism faltered in the 1960s does not mean that it was not well-placed to begin with and that it can't still inspire us. I disliked that comment immensely and I have never heard him disavow it. Even though I was a child in the 1960s, I cared very deeply about, for instance, the Vietnam war and obsessed about it. I worked on a lot of political campaigns, and was often disappointed by the results, but soldiered on. Hillary's candidacy, to me, is one of the results of those efforts. She was very much shaped by the politics of the 1960s and it's when she experienced her own coming-of-age in politics, moving from supporting Goldwater and away from her own family's politics to become a strong activist in her own right.

I think the upshot of the movement in the 1960s is that a lot of people who came of age then, and in the decade afterwards, broke out of a lot of the ideals that perservered through the end of the 1960s. I don't see Hillary, for example, as being remotely like a 60-year old in 1968. Activists her age did move past the ideas their parents held.

I am proud to relate to the Tom Hayden Democrats, as I'm sure the older women in my precinct do, and my friend who didn't get hired for a job she was more qualified for than the person they did hire does.

My next beef was with Oprah - it offended me that when she was stumping for Obama, she commented, "I'm not telling you what to think. I'm asking you TO think", implying that people who supported other candidates weren't thinking about it! Obama didn't make those comments, but I didn't see that he dissociated himself from them.

[DerekJ]

199. You quote:

“My next beef was with Oprah - it offended me that when she was stumping for Obama, she commented, "I'm not telling you what to think. I'm asking you TO think", implying that people who supported other candidates weren't thinking about it!”

I’m not familiar with the mentioned quote, and I was unable to find it anywhere. However, as it stands, all I see her saying : “don’t follow my lead, Don’t just believe what I say, go think for yourself, and come to whatever conclusion that you think is right”. Look, I HATE Oprah. Don’t expect me to defend her if she said anything out of line.

Should this quote be what you say it is; then Oprah is an Idiot. However I can’t possibly see Obama going public to disavow every stupid comment said by one of his supporters. She is not a surrogate, and she is not working officially for his campaign. However, if the comment is what you say it is, and was said on an official event. Then there is no excuse. Obama should have disavowed it.

I'm also not familiar with the Tom Hayden comment you’re referring to. So if you can provide me with a link to read more about that, I’d be happy to discuss it further.


I’ve to go, I’ve some work to finish, but you have to understand, we are not against the Baby Boomer generation, or we’re looking for the cool young guy. Most of Obama supporters were supporters of some other candidate at some point (most of them are older than Obama, think Kucinich, or Richardson). We’re against the status-quo, the corruption in government, and the influence of special interest. We see Hillary as a representative of all that. Nothing will be done for the people, for as long as there is somebody else pulling the strings from behind the scene calling out for the favors they’ve done for the candidate.


As it stands right now, I don’t see any evidence of him marginalizing the Baby Boomers, or him saying that he will not work for their interests.

[TomBall Democrat]

201. crapola

the only reason any woman I know can give me to support Hillary is her ability to create estrogen.

BULLSHIT.

BULLSHIT.

BULLSHIT.

Go knit a candidate - you'd have better luck than you do with that lying old fool Hillary.

[DerekJ]

186. self-delete

[rinsd]

190. I hate these fake ass anecdotal attacks on whole groups of people.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

202. Thank you from an Obama supporter.

:toast:

[stevenleser]

196. *Plonked* Making a decision or comments based on 1 supporter you met in a bar? Puhleeze

[VotesForWomen]

198. yep; it's a clueless cult of personality, plain and simple. nt

[TomBall Democrat]

200. Yet another post from an angry profane moran.

Ya'll are just boring the brains right out of Hillary.

She might be winning if she had smarter supporters.

KNITTERS FOR HILLARY UNITE.

Weak.

[mikekohr]

203. 50 Year Old For Obama

Both of our remaining candidates are a credit to our Party and ready for the White House, on day one. One candidate, Senator Obama, is magnanimous and fair minded enough to acknowledge Senator Clinton this fact. She has refused to extend the same courtesy.

Repeatedly.

In a nut shell that defines substantively the difference between these two candidates. There is little policy difference between the two. On issues of style, and judgment the difference are somewhat more defined.

mike kohr

[Buzz Clik]

206. ditto (plus 5)

[Buzz Clik]

205. I'd like you to talk to my 19-year-old son about Obama.

I guarantee you that he knows more about politics than you, he knows why he's voting for Obama, and he will make you wish you never crossed intellectual swords with him.

My suggestion: quit hanging with stupid people. Your view will change tremendously.