There Is Never a Good Reason to Hate Another Democrat: A Response to Another Thread

[McCamy Taylor]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5373529
This is a response to There is good reason to "hate" Hillary Clinton in which the author asks for someone to prove that Obama has done the same things that he says have made Hillary worthy of being hated. This is a pretty silly challenge, since the author admits that Obama has used dirty tricks just like any other successful politician, but if this will help him stop this divisive hate mongering, I will do it.

My intention is not to show that Obama is bad or deserving of hatred. I wish to show that the “crimes” of which Hillary stands accused are really just normal things that normal candidates like Barack Obama do. Since he is not a hateful person or evil, then they can not be evil acts in and of themselves, which means that they can not make Hillary evil either.

There is never a good reason to hate another person. The ultimate act of evil is to declare another person evil. While we may condemn another person’s actions, we should not condemn or reject the person. Recall that Obama would not reject his pastor, Rev. Wright even when called upon to do so by many after Fox released videotapes. He explained his decision to KO here:


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23675485/

KO:Do you repudiate the man, do you repudiate the comments, do you repudiate both?
OBAMA: No, I would do not repudiate the man. As I said, this is somebody who I have known for 17 years. He helped bring me to Jesus and helped bring me to church. And, you know, he and I have a relationship, he‘s like an uncle who has talked to me, not about political things and not about social views, as much as about faith and God and family.
And he‘s somebody who is widely respected throughout Chicago and around the country for many of the things that he‘s done not only as a pastor but also as a preacher. But I have to say that the comments that have been played are ones that are contrary to what I believe, what I think of this country, the love that I have for this country and, you know, are ones that anger and distress me.
So, you know, I would describe it as a member of your family who does, says something that you really disagree with. They don‘t stop being a member of your family, but you have to speak out forcefully on the issue.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23601041/page/4/

KO:Unless you say something definitive, Senator, the former congresswoman is speaking with your approval.
You must remedy this.
And you must reject and denounce Geraldine Ferraro.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8VC9QC80&show_article=1

Of Ferraro's comment, Hillary Clinton told her audience: "I certainly do repudiate it and I regret deeply that it was said. Obviously she doesn't speak for the campaign, she doesn't speak for any of my positions, and she has resigned from being a member of my very large finance committee."

Hillary and Obama made the same choice. Apparently when Hillary does it, it is the wrong thing to do because Olbermann still has the Special Comment on his main page, as if to say that he is waiting for Hillary to repudiate Ferraro the human being.

There is a double standard. If Obama and Hillary do the exact same thing, the press and Democrats, including party leaders react in opposite ways.

Here are the list of Obama’s accomplishments according to lynyrd_skynyrd. Let’s see if they stand up:

I. Never said the word’s “Shame on you, Hillary Clinton”: Hmmm. Maybe not those words. But, in Iowa, when Bob Novak pulled a story out of his drunken lying ass and claimed to know for a fact that Hillary had dirt on Obama that she was not going to use

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/11/clinton_has_dirt_on_obama_mcca.html

how do you think Obama reacted? If you said “He kept his cool”, you get no points. If you said “He called Novak a liar” you get zero, too.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/11/17/clinton_obama_feud_over_novaks.html

A tense back-and-forth erupted between two top Democratic presidential candidates on Saturday as Sen. Barack Obama accused Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of spreading rumors that her campaign is in possession of potentially damaging information about her rival.

Now, keep in mind that Hillary actually had deceptive advertising fliers put out by the Obama camp in her hand when she called Obama shameless. Obama was taking the word of Bob Novak when he accused Hillary of spreading rumors. The press responded to Hillary’s attempt to defend herself in February by launching a Hillary has Multiple Personality Disorder Smear Campaign as documented by Media Matters

http://mediamatters.org/items/200802270010

Since the press usually follows the cues of the political candidates during election season, a prudent person would wonder did the Obama camp or one of Obama's political suppporters suggest this "call Hillary crazy" campaign to them. Or maybe it was the RNC. Only the members of the press know for sure. In either case, Hillary's "shameless" remark had little effect on Obama, but it had a terrible effect on her. And in the end, it angered Hillary's female supporters who have also been called "crazy" when they have attempted to stand up for themselves.

In contrast, Obama’s public denunciation of Hillary for her dirty tricks before the Iowa caucuses served to make Obama look innocent and Hillary guilty in the eyes of voters in a state which punishes dirty tricksters more than most states. Here is how Obama was pushing the Novak story. Note that even as his camp admitted that Novak was a liar, they claimed that it was all still Hillary’s fault. Something tells me that a lot of people at DU will be persuaded by the twisted illogic that they spin on this page:

http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/2007/11/17/obama-strikes-back-quickly-against-alleged-hillary-clinton-camp-smear/

Clinton is now on public record. On Monday, she said, “It’s totally untrue, and I don’t understand what motivates him,” she said of Novak. “He’s not a friend to Democrats, that’s very clear.” That’s very hard to swallow since Hillary is known for working closely with people who are not “friends to Democrats.” She regularly leaks to the Drudge report. She also had Rupert Murdoch, chief of the conservative Fox News, host a fundraiser for her this campaign season.
We finally have a decent Presidential nominee and the Washington establishment is trying to take him down into the gutter with them.

Iowa, please lead us to the Promised Land!

How much of Obama's win in Iowa and Hillary's loss came because Obama decided to pretend that he believed that known liar Bob Novak was welcome within the Clinton camp. Don't forget, Novak helped CREEP sink McGovern's campaign with his "a prominent Democratic said that all McGovern stands for is abortion, acid and amnesty" lie.

II. Never Race Baited Oh, that is a good one. While I still believe that there is a Republican mole working for or within the Obama camp, because they keep doing stupid things that are going to hurt them in the general, the fact is that they put out a nasty piece of work called The Race Memo that no Democratic presidential campaign should ever let see the light of day much less the eyes of a reporter for the Huffington Post.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/12/obama-camps-memo-on-clin_n_81205.html

The memo, which was obtained by the Huffington Post and has been made public elsewhere, is believed to have been given to an activist and contains mostly excerpts from different media reports. It lists the contact info and name of Obama's South Carolina press secretary, Amaya Smith, and is broken down into five incidents in which either Clinton, her husband Bill, or campaign surrogates made comments that could be interpreted as racially insensitive.
The document provides an indication that, in private, the Obama campaign is seeking to capitalize on the view - and push the narrative - that the Clintons are using race-related issues for political leverage. In public, the Obama campaign has denied that they are trying to propagate such a perception, noting that the document never was sent to the press.
Snip

The Obama camp did not return repeated requests for comment. But campaign spokesperson Candice Tolliver told Politico that, in regards to the race-based comment: "Folks are beginning to wonder: Is this really an isolated situation or is there something bigger behind all of this?"

The biggest problem with the charges made in the “Race Memo” is that half of them are lies, which Media Matters and other media watchdogs had already debunked before the memo was put together. That means that whoever created the memo was either an idiot who did not care about the long term consequences (imagine what the Republican McCain could do with this in the general). Or a GOP mole handed this to someone in the Obama camp knowing it would look good but would be a time bomb for later when a savvy journalist realized that most of the charges were phony.

Here are the lies it contains which had already been proven false on widely read internet sites.

Clinton called Obama’s campaign a “fairy tale.” False. He called his war record a fairy tale.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200801120001

Hillary compared Martin Luther King Jr and LBJ. That was a lie, too. She compared JFK and LBJ. LBJ helped MLK Jr more than JFK did. LBJ had more experience (like her) and was able to accomplish what JFK (to whom Obama is often compared) could not do.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200801130004

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og_Ei3-GGmo


Mark Penn introduced the subject of Obama’s cocaine use on Hardball. False. It was an all Obama-all drugs show hosted by Matthews with Axelrod, Penn, Trippi. Tweety kept talking about drugs, asking if “Things really do go better with coke?” asking if Obama shared and sold drugs. Trippi got mad because that was all anyone would talk about. Axelrod himself knew this because he was on the show.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200712170004

The three other charges are the weakest, Cuomo’s “shuck and jive” , Shaheen’s question about whether Obama’s revelations of drug use in his autobiography would hurt him in the general (drug use is not a racially charged issue and Shaheen is the husband of Jeanne Shaheen, an independent who is pretty much was free to say what he wanted) and finally Bill saying Hillary was stronger than Nelson Mandela which is a matter of personal opinion. Without the three charges above, the Race Memo had no meaning, and so it was basically a pack of splitter lies. The story as described by the Obama friendly Huffington Post, suggests that the Obama camp wanted to circulate the memo, but not avow it.

How about, Sen. Obama? Maybe it is time to come forward and address these ridiculous charges that so many people still believe you are making? Hilary has apologized for Ferraro and Bill's Jesse Jackson comment, the only two racially charged comments that were actually made by members of her campaign. Why won't you come forward and make a definitive statement disavowing the Race Memo and other charges that people at left wing blogs, journals and Countdown keep making because you will not tell them to stop?

Then there is this charge. When Drudge released a photo of Obama in African garb and said Hillary made them do it---the most obvious kind of two for one right wing hit tactic---the Obama camp decided to milk it for additional political points by pretending to believe that Hillary really did it.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/02/sweet_the_story_behind_the_oba.html

Obama campaign manager David Plouffe said in a statement, release of the photo “On the very day that Senator Clinton is giving a speech about restoring respect for America in the world,her campaign has engaged in the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we’ve seen from either party in this election. This is part of a disturbing pattern that led her county chairs to resign in Iowa, her campaign chairman to resign in New Hampshire, and it’s exactly the kind of divisive politics that turns away Americans of all parties and diminishes respect for America in the world.”

If Obama really believes that Hillary would do something like this in the Democratic Primary—where no one cares if a candidate has Muslim roots (that is a general election issue) then he is so politically naïve as to be unfit for a general election. If, as is more likely, his campaign saw this as yet another opportunity to portray Hillary as a bitch who uses dirty tactics, then Axelrod and the rest of them have no shame. And Obama is responsible for what his campaign staffers do.

Because face it, it does not matter how hard the right wing conspiracy and the RNC is trying to smear Hillary Clinton this primary season, some of the lies are coming from the left and those journalists do not get their marching orders from Karl Rove.

You know, the biggest difference so far, is that Obama gets surrogates to yell at Hillary or when he does it himself, he is careful not to let anyone put it on YouTube to leave a record. There have been plenty of shrill accusations made against her. Plenty of hateful remarks.

Oops. They missed one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4UgXzXaueI

And two. This one from a “fan”.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h3G-lMZxjo

And here Obama calls Bill Clinton a liar and accuses him of “attacking” Obama. Never mind that in the Race Memo, the Obama camp lies about what Bill Clinton says and attacks him with the lie. If former presidents should not lie, then should not future presidents be held to the same standards?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SjC6nnCvXM


III. Never actively attempted to help McCain win the election so that he may run again in 2012. You could have fooled me. Every time that Obama and the left wing members of the Democratic Party claim that Hillary’s vote for the 2002 Iraq War resolution makes her just as guilty as Bush, they hand Republicans the best Christmas gift they can. Imagine how John McCain could spin that. “You also voted for the war. Sen. Clinton. The only difference between you and me is that you are ready to cut and run for political expediency.” Bonus points for implying that Kyle-Lieberman means that Hillary is ready to invaded Iran.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tDkdA-GeGg

Here is how the GOP plans to attack Hillary if she somehow manages to capture the nomination. According to this recent Salon article, the strategy is 1. Accuse her of lying, 2. Accuse her of using Super delegates (which is “cheating”) to win 3. Bring up “sleaze factor” topics from the 1990s.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/03/26/hillary/index1.html

We have seen the corporate media do all of this for the past month, so the RNC is already working on this tactic. But, we have also seen the liberal media and people like KO who do not get their marching order from the Republicans attempt to portray Hillary as a liar, sleazy and Super delegates as “cheaters”. That means that there is some other group using the same play book. And there is only one other group that people like KO will listen to right now.

So, you tell me. If Hillary gets the nomination after all, what does that do to her chances in the general after enough people see stuff like this on the internet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTGWMRTa7WI

This is what I call scorched earth.

IV. Never fabricated a lie out of whole cloth. I have already said why I think that no case has been made for the so called Bosnian “lie”. The evidence in the “Hillary said, Sinbad said” is one piece of CBS film footage that shows several seconds of heavily edited short range video minus most of the sound without any images of Hillary exiting the plane. If Hillary and her daughter showed signs of fear---cringing, head ducking, running—they would have showed them in the first moments upon exiting the plane. Plus, with the sound edited out, you can not tell if there is gunfire or mortar in the distance---or even loud noises like engines misfiring that might startle women who have been made nervous by their security detail. The CBS footage is not evidence, it is a news story which was produced in the 1990s to create the impression that the US had the situation on the ground in Bosnia well under control so that Clinton could continue to keep forces in the area to protect the people from genocide as he campaigned for re-election. Sinbad, being a man, might have a higher threshold for fear---or he might have political reasons for wanting to contradict the Senator.

While Hillary may have forgotten what really happened after a decade, she did not create a lie out of “whole cloth”. She really did go to Bosnia at a time when you risked your life to do so. A week later, Ron Brown and an airplane of VIPs would crash into a mountain after taking off from that same airport. While the US attempted to downplay the incident, it is possible that the downing of the plane was deliberate.

Ten days earlier this is what this eye witness saw

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/26/EDVJVQ9BP.DTL

These beasts had, until weeks earlier, done their worst to finish turning the Tuzla Valley into a corpse-littered wasteland. Onboard the flight from Frankfurt, Germany, we were given flak jackets to don once we had entered Bosnian airspace. There was a lively debate over whether it was better to wear the proffered helmets on our heads, or place them under our seat. Given the Bosnia Serb propensity to take potshots at planes landing and taking off from the Tuzla air base, it was agreed that the latter was a more life-enhancing strategy.
Eagle Base was a "hot" landing zone. When our plane touched down, the C-130's rear cargo door opened, and we were encouraged to sprint to the base's sandbag-reinforced terminal. The plane was unloaded and reloaded in war-zone fashion - with engines running.
The Dayton Accords may have been signed the previous December, but when we arrived in Tuzla that March, the place was still at war. If there were no actual gunfire raining down from the hills around Eagle Base, then the hills were alive with fanatics from the Bosnian Serb army. They were angry at the American intervention, well-armed and zealous enough to have considered bagging a first lady or even a second-rate comedian. Nor did the fact that Sinbad and Sheryl Crow were along with us as USO entertainers render Hillary Clinton's visit risk-less.
snip
Along with the possibility of an attack like the mortar round that had slammed into Tuzla's marketplace the previous May, killing 71 and injuring 150, came the nonmilitary dangers inherent in a war zone. Nine days later, on April 3, the point was tragically brought home when a plane carrying U.S. Commerce Secretary Ron Brown took off from Tuzla and crashed into a mountainside killing Brown and 30 other Americans.

There is no “whole cloth” here. Hillary may have embroidered or embellished the bullet proof vest which her military escort gave her, but I will bet that even Sinbad was wearing his body armor when he got out of that plane. And that is the important point. Hillary went to Bosnia. She was told that she was going into a area known to have snipers and mortar fire. She went there with her daughter so that Americans would continue to support the Bosnians to keep Rwanda from happening again.

Shame on DU for turning all of that into a lie.

Now, about the ridiculous assertion that Obama never lies. There is a famous research study which shows that if you put a group of men together and ask them to select a leader, they will choose the one who is the best liar ( the best liar is determined later in a different study). Women do not choose their leader based upon the same criterion). That said, we know that Obama must be a good liar, like W.

Some things that we know that Obama has said that must be lies.

From Countdown
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23675485/

KO: Did you know that he made these statements before the videotape appeared?
OBAMA: You know, frankly, I didn‘t. I wasn‘t in church during the time when the statements were made. Now, I think it‘s, Keith, important to point out that he‘s been preaching for 30 years.
He is a man who was a former marine who served this country, a biblical scholar, somebody who‘s spoken at theological schools all across the country, and is widely regarded as a preacher. That‘s the man I know. That‘s the person who was the pastor of this church.
I did not hear such incendiary language myself, personally, either in conversations with him or when I was in the pew. He always preached the social gospel and was sometimes controversial in the same way that many people who‘d speak out on social issues are controversial.

We all cringed when we heard that. Oh, Senator Obama. Now you have gone and done it. The RNC has huge rooms of people whose job is to leap into action the minute you say something like this. By now they already have the evidence of which days you were in Church and exactly what was said, and in the general election you will be asked to explain why x, y and z are not “incendiary” along with panels of experts who will swear that x, y and z are incendiary and probably even people who have been fired from their jobs for saying x, y and z. You were supposed to say “I did not hear this language.” Oh well. Obama is a fast talker. He will figure out a way to get around it when it comes.

Since this is Obama and not Hillary (who can be called a “liar” based upon one “lie”) this one instance is not enough. And this is not out of “whole cloth” either. It depends upon how you define ‘incendiary’.

Here is another, less ambiguous case. Last December, Obama told the Chicago Tribune that he had never done any favors for Rezko. I guess they should have been more specific about what a “favor” is the same way that Starr needed to be more specific about what “sex” was when he questioned Bill Clinton.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/425305,CST-NWS-obama13.article

As a state senator, Barack Obama wrote letters to city and state officials supporting his political patron Tony Rezko's successful bid to get more than $14 million from taxpayers to build apartments for senior citizens.
The deal included $855,000 in development fees for Rezko and his partner, Allison S. Davis, Obama's former boss, according to records from the project, which was four blocks outside Obama's state Senate district.
Obama's letters, written nearly nine years ago, for the first time show the Democratic presidential hopeful did a political favor for Rezko -- a longtime friend, campaign fund-raiser and client of the law firm where Obama worked -- who was indicted last fall on federal charges that accuse him of demanding kickbacks from companies seeking state business under Gov. Blagojevich.

Obama explains that this was not a “favor” for Rezko. It was a favor for his constituents. Keep in mind that when Bill Clinton said that he had not had sexual relations with Monica, a study of college students found that half believed that oral sex was not sexual relations. And Hillary says that after a decade she really does remember the landing in Tuzla being scarier than the CBS video clip shows. If we are going to err on the side of the defendant in these “he says, the record says” cases, should not we be consistent? Or is there one standard for the Clintons and another for Obama? If the latter, why?

V. He has not dismissed the states she has lost as irrelevant. He has done something worse. He has taken them for granted. As in We will carry Michigan and Pennsylvania and Ohio and all those other blue states no matter whom the nominee is. And all the traditional Democratic voters who turn out for Hillary will turn out for me. One Democrat is just as good as another for those old Democrats. We have to court the Independents. They are the important ones.
Ha! The RNC’s current divide and conquer strategy is paying off big time thanks to the Obama camp’s willingness to play along. Every time Keith Olbermann opens his mouth, he drives another Hillary supporter so furious with anger over what they see as the Obama camp’s dirty tricks that he ensures that one more Democrat will do anything besides vote for Obama this fall. Right now, KO is the Democratic Party’s worst enemy. We are doing 1972 all over again, and KO is Hunter S. Thompson, busily convincing both Ed Muskie and Hubert Humphrey’s supporters that Obama/George McGovern is the one behind all the nasty rumors and dirty tricks that have plagued the primary season.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7005168/

Working for Muskie, Thompson wrote, “was something like being locked in a rolling box car with a vicious 200-pound water rat.”
snip
Humphrey? Of him, Thompson wrote: “There is no way to grasp what a shallow, contemptible and hopelessly dishonest old hack Hubert Humphrey is until you’ve followed him around for a while.”

Thompson was a great writer, but when he wrote for the Stone in 1972, he was doing his good buddy Pat Buchanan’s work for him without even realizing it. He made sure that the Democrats hated each others' guts but good.

How divided are the Democrats now?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/105691/McCain-vs-Obama-28-Clinton-Backers-McCain.aspx
From March 26, 2008

PRINCETON, NJ -- A sizable proportion of Democrats would vote for John McCain next November if he is matched against the candidate they do not support for the Democratic nomination. This is particularly true for Hillary Clinton supporters, more than a quarter of whom currently say they would vote for McCain if Barack Obama is the Democratic nominee.

Hmmm. If Hillary is so evil, seems like Obama supporters would shun her. However, that isn’t how it is. The majority of Obama supporters—80%--- know in their heart of hearts that they are just playing along with a campaign strategy. Nothing personal. However, even though Hillary has a higher number of lifelong Democrats in her camp, an increasing number of them are resolving to just say no to Obama for the same reason that Humphrey and Muskie supporters blew off McGovern in 1972. This is because of things like the so called “Bosnia” lie, which is nothing but “Gore is a liar” recycled. It is because of things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfdhWi5MILo

It started as a RNC dirty trick, but Obama has not made more than a token gesture to disavow it. Instead, his camp and his supporters in the liberal press and his political allies have used it.
And the chickens are coming home to roost. Everything that I have been warning about since last fall—the circular firing squad, Chicago 1968 and Miami 1972, a Democratic Party divided---is all happening according to the RNC’s plan, in large part because David Axelrod and Barrack Obama and their short sighted liberal supporters could not resist the urge to capitalize on the short term gain that was offered to them, even though they knew that painting the Clintons, who had deep support within the Democratic party as liars, scumbags and traitors would backfire upon them in the general election. Hell, painting Hubert Humphrey as the same as Nixon helped get McGovern nominated. Never mind that it pissed off all the groups that liked Humphrey, like union members, blue collar workers and African-Americans. ( see http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1027&context=igs page 15)
Securing that nomination is all that counts, no matter what the cost or how you do it. That is the way that the McGovern camp played 1972 and that is the way that Obama camp is playing this election.

I would like to think that somebody out there at DU will actually read this, but I am not going to kid myself. I know that this is more of a time capsule. The attitude right now on the left is like America in the fifties. The Clintons are the "reds" and anyone who speaks up for ending the state of mutually assured self destruction that we are in is an enemy of the state. That is why DU cheered when Spitzer had to resign--another Hillary Super delegate gone--and forgot that this was the Bush political DOJ in action. That is why you have forgotten that Pelosi still won't impeach or defund the war. At the rate we are going, Congress will be able to give the telecoms immunity if the ones who vote for it also switch that same day to become Obama SDs. KO will just let it slide.

Man, if Seigelman was a Hillary Super delegate, he would still be rotting in jail. This is what absolutism gets you. An absolutely dysfunctional party

[Zhade]

1. That's a whole lotta work for no gain, considering her Tuzla lie is a proven lie.

You fail.

[McCamy Taylor]

3. Have you see the film "The Conversation"? Watch it.

The difference between the "truth" and a "lie" could be what was left on the cutting room floor at CBS when they were making the case that the US had the situation under control in Bosnia back in 1996.

If the raw complete footage confirms Sinbad's story, why hasn't CBS released it? They had computers in 1996.

[anigbrowl]

6. I have; as it happens, I am a professional sound man

Believe me, I know all about the magic of editing and how it can fool the eye and ear. I can see all the leaps of logic in your OP as well, such as your spurious argument that Obama must be dishonest because an (unsourced) psychological study has shown that men gravitate towards choosing liars under laboratory conditions - the premise being that little girls are made of sugar and spice and everything nice.

I'd like to offer you a detailed reply, but frankly I don't have to patience to deconstruct the whole overly-long post.

[McCamy Taylor]

9. Saying you can do something does not substitute for doing it.

The "Power of Persuasion" Carrie Keating

http://www.pbs.org/saf/transcripts/transcript301.htm#5

More on Carrie Keating's work

http://www.pbs.org/safarchive/4_class/45_pguides/pguide_301/4531_lal.html

There are also animal studies on crawfish that show males "bluff" in battles with other males for dominance but that females do not use bluffing behavior when they battle other females for dominance. This could well be a biological phenomenon.

[anigbrowl]

52. That's true; but crawfish are a poor example as they're not a social species

You might want to read Deborah Tannen's book 'You just don't understand' which examines the differences in male and female communication styles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah_Tannen for a more academic background on her.

[femrap]

74. Maybe you have taken the class

from karl rove...'never back down...attack attack attack.' Classic bully crap. Boys love to play it.

[anigbrowl]

93. I'll let people make up their own minds about that.

Interesting way to respond to a reading suggestion.

[JoFerret]

15. Nah! you fail. Cheap off the shelf response

to a great piece of analysis.

Thanks OP. Good stuff.

[natrat]

61. total fail-look at the crooks the woman has running her campaign,and thats just the start

[guruoo]

68. You haven't proven intent, therefore you haven't proven it to be a lie.

lie: A false statement deliberately presented as being true.


For it to have be a lie there had to have been a willful intent to deceive.
Poor recollection of events doesn't count as willfull intent.

[emilyg]

84. First one to jump in - Congratulations on your hatred.

[Saturday]

2. Excellent post. Recommended.nt

[apocalypsehow]

4. Sorry, I spent all morning scoring essays. I just don't have time for all that.

n/t.

[Autumn]

5. That is an absolutely awesome rebuttal

Thank you so much for this. You have covered every thing that I have seen that has been done to her. I remember the media reports of how things were in Bosnia at that time, And I will never be convinced that Bill or Hillary Clinton are racist. I really do think that the media is taking her out so that Senator Obama wins the nomination and then they will tear him apart in the general. Thank you.

[guyanakoolaid]

7. "I remember the media reports of how things were in Bosnia at that time"...

So did Hillary. More so than her own recollection of being there.

[Autumn]

8. I remember very well,

I come from a military family,and I paid close attention to news reports on television. Thanks for the snark though.

[Spiffarino]

12. You're right.

It was awesome snark.

[uberblonde]

60. I remember the U.N. ended up calling in air strikes...

On what turned out to be civilian targets because they had so much trouble determining the source of gunfire, due to the sound of gunfire echoing through the mountains surrounding the cities.

They now have technology to determine the source, but it didn't exist then.

[Usrename]

14. The accusation isn't that the Clintons are racist.

The accusation is that they are consciously preying on other folks' xenophobia in order to manipulate the vote.

I don't see anyone even trying to counter that accusation. It would be difficult to debunk though, considering the evidence.

[Autumn]

16. Wasn't Bill Clinton accused of being racist?

I have heard that a lot lately.

[Usrename]

39. Not that I know of.

Maybe somebody else has heard something.

[bettyellen]

54. yeah, I heard it too.

[blm]

79. Not personally but knew how to appeal to the racism of certain Dem voters just as he did

in his own primary campaign in 92.

[asjr]

18. You make a good point. Remember

how the media treated Al Gore during the 2000 election. They absolutely MADE UP stories about him. When they resorted to making fun of his clothing I knew he was a goner somehow. I hope we never go through that again.

[Autumn]

20. I remember how they treated him

and when one of the talking heads talked about him perspiring (in a hot building) he had taken off his jacket and they showed the clip over and over I knew then that they were taking him out.

[Auntie Bush]

44. Yeah, remember when the media whores checked out the price of

Gore's Mother's dog prescription and declared him a liar. Why can't Obama supporters see that the media are doing the same thing again...only this time to Clinton. Only it's OK now because it's her and not him. Wait till the RW corp media do it to Obama and they will cry a different tune.
KARMA BITES!

[AX10]

47. As you said!

"Karma Bites!"

[DogPoundPup]

86. If you know that, about Gore's Mother's dog prescription

then she and her campaign should know that and be more careful about the prevarications she uses.
:7

[Buzz Clik]

56. But it's not all factual. He calls people liars while twisting the truth himself.

:eyes:

[Spiffarino]

10. Good god.

The hate has to stop on both sides. The candidates should be working together to defeat any and all Republicans in 2008. Instead, they're doing all the work for them.

[cbayer]

11. Very well done, as usual.

Long and probably not going to be read in its entirety by many, but it is good to see a thoughtful reply to that horrible OP that uses logic and links to sources.

Hate is the last refuge of the desperate and uninformed.

[Lyric]

13. Holy shit. That is THE most impressive and intelligent post that I have ever seen

on GD-P. Unfortunately it will be ignored by the people who need to read it the most.

Goodnight and good luck, sir. :hi:

[anigbrowl]

53. Well, it does have a lot of cutting and pasting, I'll say that

But then a 44 oz soda is pretty impressive as well. Doesn't mean it's good for you.

[femrap]

76. You're allowed in SF?

Wow...the standards sure have dropped. SF prides itself as a city of TOLERANCE....are you another one of those Repugnant Moles????

How much do they pay you per hour? Any perks? Get to meet Larry Craig or Senator Vitter?

[ExtraGriz]

17. Great post..

very thorough and well thought out. thank you...K&R

[asjr]

19. Thank you McCamy Taylor.

[last1standing]

21. And yet you post about your hatred of many Democrats right here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5388333#5388891

The word "hypocrite" comes to mind for some reason. :eyes:

[JohnnyLib2]

22. The word "stretch" came to my mind.

No hatred in that link.

[last1standing]

30. No, He just attacked an entire group of Democrats with right wing stereotypes.

It seemed pretty hateful to me but if it didn't to you that's fine by me.

[McCamy Taylor]

24. I did not say I hated them and I didn't say they are Democrats. They are poseurs.

If people act like Democrats, I will always support them. If they do not act like Democrats then I will not trust them and I will advise others not to do the same. I will not hate them.

Democrats consistently vote as Democrats. Michael Moore encouraged voters to vote Green in 2000---condemning our country to Bush. Moore is not a true Democrat.

[last1standing]

25. You're not a true Democrat, either. You're a Marxist.

How do we know that if a Marxist ran on a third party ticket you wouldn't support them? I have to say that I trust Moore more than I trust you at this point. Sorry.

[McCamy Taylor]

28. ROFL There is no Marxist party.

I am also a Buddhist. There is no Buddhist party either. Marxism is a way of studying history that dominates western culture in this century. I just admit that I think that way. Most people are not aware that the way that they think about history is thanks to the work of Marx and Engels and those that came after them. There is a communist party but I am not a member of that. I am a Democrat. I can remember every presidential primary since 1964 (I was 5 then! My family are yellow dogs!) and I always vote straight party and I volunteer.

[last1standing]

29. Strange, I just read my post and didn't see where I said there was a marxist party.

Please point it out to me because I'd love to share in your joke.


ROFL!

[AX10]

33. And we are greatful that none exists.

[UALRBSofL]

31. McCamy is not a hypocrite. He's right in that

Michael Moore is out for the all mighty dollar. He didn't mention in his post Michael Moore actually has shares of stock in Halliburton, and, who would have thought that. However, I will defend Moore because he does go out of his way to keep the public informed of the lies/deceit/thievery of the Bush Administration. Because Moore benefits from his work I don't hold that against him. As the media said today in reference to Clinton's wealth, you can be rich and still work for the homeless, needy, and, poverty strickened.

McCamy, as usual, a well written article. Keep up the good work. There are folks on DU that actually appreciate reading your articles and appreciate the time you put in them.

[last1standing]

34. I have shares of Halliburton as well.

They're in my 401K that I have no control over. If that makes me as bad as Moore, I can honestly say that I'm in good company.

[joshcryer]

42. You call that hatred?

What do you call the overwhelming number of posts about Hillary here?

[last1standing]

43. I call it hatred.

One doesn't cancel out the other. Why is that so hard for so many on either side to understand?

[Joe Chi Minh]

91. Did not Hillary state that McCain was preferable to Obama as prospective President -

words to that effect? Apparently, on the basis of McCain's 'superior' experience. That instance alone is a definitive indication of a singular want of judgement on her part, for such a demanding political office as that of US President.

Despite the process being, by its very nature as a campaign, unambiguously and indeed unapologetically adversarial, I cannot think of a less acceptable way for a candidate to conduct himself/herself towards a Democratic opponent, than to hold up their Republican opponent as a better prospective Presidential candidate. Anything but comradely, Hillary has exercised the ultimate expression of political odium, the nuclear option. In the current circumstances, that is particularly unforgiveable.

The fact that you people support her still, only serves to emphasise that calling oneself a Democrat does not, ipso facto, make it so. Didn't Hillary support Goldwater? Has she had a Damascus experience? If so, should she not share it with the electorate? The fact is that the critical mass of the Democratic party has clearly shifted much further to the left than the DLC (how could it not have, after the past 7-8 years) - which is no longer 'democratic', either, even to the degree that it was in the past. Nor, of course, are your good selves. It would be demonstrably closer to the continental European social-democratic parties.

You know, for people who would bully your political opponents within the Democratic Party so recklessly, your faux-irenic whingeing makes particularly unattractive reading.

[last1standing]

94. Did you really mean to direct that post at me?

I'm supporting Obama, dude, but that doesn't mean I think all the nuts at DU have a need to come in here and practice their hatespeech at Clinton. And I don't think there's any excuse for the nuts doing the same toward Obama, either.

The biggest problem with a political board like this is it give too much voice to people like McCormy who personalize elections to the point of obsession. They can't understand that not only are they NOT the candidate, the candidates don't even know they exist. Instead they feel they're integral to the campaign and come here to bully anyone they can with insults and lies.

My point is that bullshit needs to end. Is that what you had a problem with?

[Joe Chi Minh]

97. No, it wasn't you, in particular, though I had noticed your posts.

It was McCamy and her bizarrely fulsome supporters - as if she'd just rescued them all from a bunch of sadistic killers. Such a relief!

Incidentally, it turns out, seemingly, that the DLC is currently not doing too badly on the democratic front in the matter of super-delegates' votes, Governors substantially favouring Obama and Senators, Hillary by one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5398981

[JohnnyLib2]

23. Simply, thank you.

I appreciate the pearls that you present, McCamy.

[walldude]

26. I got as far as Bosnia..

and had to stop. If you don't believe that was a lie then there is no point in finishing. If you can't debate a point without lying... you lost.

[McCamy Taylor]

35. Did you really get to Bosnia? Did you put your life on the line to stop a genocide?

I am curious? How many people out there mocking Hillary actually have boarded a combat plane and flown into a battle zone in order to make sure that people who are being subject to ethnic cleansing get the help they need to live? How many of you would have the guts if called upon to make that journey to do it?

I am sure that some soldiers have and some members of the press but how many civilians? Come on. All you arm chair heroes. Let's hear your tales of valor. Let's hear why Hillary's trips to Bosnia and Kosovo mean nothing.

[Autumn]

27. Wonderful ,

thanks again.

[Levgreee]

32. tldr

[AX10]

36. See this:

Hmmm. If Hillary is so evil, seems like Obama supporters would shun her. However, that isn’t how it is. The majority of Obama supporters—80%--- know in their heart of hearts that they are just playing along with a campaign strategy. Nothing personal. However, even though Hillary has a higher number of lifelong Democrats in her camp, an increasing number of them are resolving to just say no to Obama for the same reason that Humphrey and Muskie supporters blew off McGovern in 1972. This is because of things like the so called “Bosnia” lie, which is nothing but “Gore is a liar” recycled. It is because of things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfdhWi5MILo

It started as a RNC dirty trick, but Obama has not made more than a token gesture to disavow it. Instead, his camp and his supporters in the liberal press and his political allies have used it.
And the chickens are coming home to roost. Everything that I have been warning about since last fall—the circular firing squad, Chicago 1968 and Miami 1972, a Democratic Party divided---is all happening according to the RNC’s plan, in large part because David Axelrod and Barrack Obama and their short sighted liberal supporters could not resist the urge to capitalize on the short term gain that was offered to them, even though they knew that painting the Clintons, who had deep support within the Democratic party as liars, scumbags and traitors would backfire upon them in the general election. Hell, painting Hubert Humphrey as the same as Nixon helped get McGovern nominated. Never mind that it pissed off all the groups that liked Humphrey, like union members, blue collar workers and African-Americans. ( see http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic... page 15)
Securing that nomination is all that counts, no matter what the cost or how you do it. That is the way that the McGovern camp played 1972 and that is the way that Obama camp is playing this election.

I would like to think that somebody out there at DU will actually read this, but I am not going to kid myself. I know that this is more of a time capsule. The attitude right now on the left is like America in the fifties. The Clintons are the "reds" and anyone who speaks up for ending the state of mutually assured self destruction that we are in is an enemy of the state. That is why DU cheered when Spitzer had to resign--another Hillary Super delegate gone--and forgot that this was the Bush political DOJ in action. That is why you have forgotten that Pelosi still won't impeach or defund the war. At the rate we are going, Congress will be able to give the telecoms immunity if the ones who vote for it also switch that same day to become Obama SDs. KO will just let it slide.

[rodeodance]

38. thanks--

[rodeodance]

37. REC

[McCamy Taylor]

40. A solidarity quote from Dr. King to bring us together

I look forward confidently to the day when all who work for a living will be one with no thought to their separateness as Negroes, Jews, Italians or any other distinctions. This will be the day when we bring into full realization the American dream -- a dream yet unfulfilled. A dream of equality of opportunity, of privilege and property widely distributed; a dream of a land where men will not take necessities from the many to give luxuries to the few; a dream of a land where men will not argue that the color of a man's skin determines the content of his character; a dream of a nation where all our gifts and resources are held not for ourselves alone, but as instruments of service for the rest of humanity; the dream of a country where every man will respect the dignity and worth of the human personality.

[joshcryer]

41. You're a top notch even handed poster here.

People might not like you for your posts, and they're allowed to sink quickly, but people need to take your lead and stop being assholes to one another.

[Auntie Bush]

45. WOW! What a fantastic post....so much work, research and thought put into this post.

This belongs at the very top of the greatest page but I'm afraid we have too many Obie supporters here to bother reading it or recommending it.
They only K & R positive Obama or Hillary hate posts It's such a shame Democrat supporters can't be fair minded and less like Right wingers.

Thanks for the opportunity to bookmark this thread.

[DeepModem Mom]

46. Thank you. K&R

[Hepburn]

48. Pontificate much?

:eyes:

[AtomicKitten]

49. One has to admire the sustained effort at psyops. The perseverance is spectacular.

FREE RANDI RHODES

[Jim Sagle]

50. Masters of projection like you make it easy to choose Clinton over Obama.

[AtomicKitten]

62. Your bitterness in attaching yourself to another failed candidate is duly noted.

FREE RANDI RHODES

[BzaDem]

51. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I gave up putting this much effort on this board shortly after I got here. After I realized that no matter what the issue is, no matter what the truth is, no matter what the facts are, no matter how many times Obama does the same things that his supporters decry Hillary for, that Obama supporters would ignore it and insult you for good measure.

I'm glad that there are still people like you left here who spend a huge amount of time standing up for the truth, even when it seems to be a lost cause. Hopefully, there is an Obama supporter out there who (despite probably claiming not to have read it, and then cherrypicking the weakest point as evidence that all of it is garbage) did read it. Hopefully, he or she will be less likely to apply the blatant double standard that is rampant on this board. Unlikely, but I can only hope.

[Buzz Clik]

55. While scrolling through this incredibly long post, I found this:

Here are the lies it contains which had already been proven false on widely read internet sites.

Clinton called Obama’s campaign a “fairy tale.” False. He called his war record a fairy tale.

Really? Watch for yourself.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LJRkw03woqc&feature=related

Clinton states that Obama has based his entire campaign based on his judgment when it comes to Iraq. Clinton tosses up a couple of rebuttals and says, "Give me a break. This whole thing is the biggest fairy tale I've ever seen." So, even though the subcontext of Clinton's fairy tale remark was Obama's judgment about Iraq, he had previously indicated that Obama's judgment about Iraq was the basis of his entire campaign. So, calling his record a fairly tale most definitely is calling his campaign a fairy tale.

And you have the stones to those who called Clinton on his comments liars? "Give me a break."

I'll leave it to others the unravel the rest. I've chosen to not read any further.

[Baby Snooks]

57. Unless of course they're not really a Democrat

And Hillary Clinton is not really a Democrat. You just want to believe she is because otherwise you have to accept that her husband wasn't either. Which he wasn't. They are Republicrats.

[McCamy Taylor]

69. Now that is a lie. They were McGovern organizers in Texas. That is TRUE Democrats.

[madmom]

58. K & R thanks!

[Buzz Clik]

59. Bullshit much? I found this gem below the other whopper of yours:

Hillary compared Martin Luther King Jr and LBJ. That was a lie, too. She compared JFK and LBJ. LBJ helped MLK Jr more than JFK did. LBJ had more experience (like her) and was able to accomplish what JFK (to whom Obama is often compared) could not do.

A lie? No. Just because you were able to recreate the context does not make the accusation false.

Here is Hillary's amazing comment about Obama, MLK, LBJ, and empty dreams:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9LhWUsrJnM

Good god, man. What an embarrassment for you.

[ProSense]

63. Yet 38 recs for BS! n/t

[Buzz Clik]

64. I lot of people get all warm and fuzzy when someone tells them what they want to hear.

Just ask Karl Rove.

[leaningprog]

65. the Clintons disqualify themselves.

The financial release confirmed it for me. It was black and white.
Their books provided enough money for the rest of their lives and then
some. Perfectly clean money without a hint of conflict of interest or
influence peddling or foreign intrigue atached. But this is not their
way, how can you resist being a former president with an inevitable
candidate wife when the world is anxious to line up early with the
new nexus of American power. If it simply looks murky or like a
monstrous conflict of interest but you can't prove anything,
welcome to "the fun part".

For our part on this site we need to stop demonizing her and especially
stop insulting our sisters and others who have invested in the hope
of a woman president in their lifetimes, especially in the form of
one Hillary Clinton.

Obama wished she would stop when the math became impossible for her.
She persisted and now the time line is stretched to the convention
and perhaps the courts after that if she decides to do so.But this
I believe will be her biggest blunder yet. I do not believe the
Clintons, without wielding presidential power to suppress their own
baggage, can stand the additional time Hillary has bought herself
in the bright sunshine of a long primary. They will bash Obama with
guilt by association and at the same time what they themselves have
actually said and done will come out and build into their loss.

[McCamy Taylor]

70. Huh? Context always counts. There is no meaning w/o context.

W/o context Jesus is a terrorist when he says "I have come to cast fire upon the earth."

The embarrassing thing is watching fellow Democrats act like this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/audio_video/programmes/panorama/transcripts/transcript_22_10_00.txt

MARSHALL
Debate night. Vice President Al Gore is about to go one on one with Governor George Bush. The
candidates are so close in the polls, their performance here could swing the election. There'll be an
audience of 50 million.

TIM GRIFFIN
If there's something really good that we should attack then we'll attack it.

MARSHALL
In the Republican Party's war room, attack headquarters for the Bush campaign they're waiting for the
candidates to appear on screen.

GRIFFIN
Everybody make sure you've got a pen and paper. You see anything that you think is a potential
exaggeration, hit or whatever, just email it around.

MARSHALL
Tim Griffin and his colleagues do oppo - opposition research. It means they look for any slip by the enemy
- Al Gore.

GRIFFIN
Research is a fundamental point. We think of ourselves as the creators of the ammunition in a war.
Research digs up the ammunition.

MARSHALL
You make the bullets.

GRIFFIN
That's right, we make the bullets.

MARK CORALLO
I'm ready to just respond to anything that Gore says.

MARSHALL
And they feed their anti-Gore research to the American press and TV.

CORALLO
It's an amazing thing when you have top line producers and reporters calling you and saying "We trust you,
we need your stuff."

PRESENTER
Good evening from the Clark Athletic Centre at the University....

MARSHALL
Right at the start Gore presents Griffin with his first chance to attack.

PRESENTER
Vice President Gore you have questioned whether Governor Bush has the experience to be President of the
United States.

AL GORE
I have actually not questioned Governor Bush's experience. I have questioned....

MARSHALL
Griffin spots the opening. It's small but to them it's a gift, an Al Gore untruth.

GRIFFIN
Hey, he questioned his experience on foreign policy. Grant, will you pull up that foreign policy piece. He
did attack his experience didn't he.

CORALLO
Yes he did.

GRIFFIN
Alright, okay. Hey, Monica, how're we looking on that? Where's the stuff on that?

MARSHALL
Griffin is eager to get a story to the Associated Press Newswire - A.P. - the link with all the media.

GRIFFIN
In any case Mr Gore continued his theme from the morning speech that Mr Bush called for a tax cut raises
the question does he have the experience to be President. That's exactly what Gore said, it directly
contradicts what he just said in the debate. He just lied. A.P.s already on there.

MARK CORALLO
OPPOSITION RESEARCHER, REPUBLICAN PARTY
The man can't tell the truth. He uses legalisms and he passes words just like his master, Bill Clinton, to get
out of trouble.

AL GORE
And when the conflict came up in Bosnia I saw a genocide in the heart of Europe. I think...

MARSHALL
Having tasted blood the attack dogs want more.

That is just the transcript that you can link.

Here is the main site at the BBC. It is all about RNC dirty tricks---the ones that Obama supporters on this board are copying because they seem to have developed an admiration for Republican dirty ops.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/archive/981759.stm "Digging the Dirt" BBC 2000

[dcambron]

89. interesting that you should bring that up

because I have been thinking lately that some of the most hateful of the Obama supporters seem very much like those young Republicans who went down to Florida to intimidate the election commissions during the recount back in '00. I actually like both Hillary and Obama, but lately I have been just feeling old and tired and not very hopeful.

[Shoelace]

66. K&R - Dems need to stick together like glue now

we don't need 4 more years of Republicrats - bottom line!

[Evergreen Emerald]

67. Excellent post showing the double standard in the media

as repeated ad naseum by the DU Obama supporters.

[OzarkDem]

71. Excellent, well researched post

Something every Dem needs to think about.

[crankychatter]

72. there ain't a damn thing wrong with hating a democrat

I despised Bill Clinton and campaigned vigorously for him twice

on reflection I wish I hadn't but my reasons were and remain, quite sound

unity at any price?

not anymore

The party needs to GROW or GO

[McCamy Taylor]

75. Because sometimes a picture tells a 1000 words, Chicago 1968

Enjoy your four more years of war!

[crankychatter]

87. Those were even Delegates being beaten by Pro-Status Quo Dems

FAKE opponents to the War talking smack about leaving with "honor," like Mayor Daley, beat the crap out of the rest of us. That was probably a PEACE Delegate getting his ass beat.

So, we support YOUR candidate which is ONLY AGAINST THE WAR FOR POLITICAL CONVENIENCE...

or you're going to repeat 67?

kma

This is the same battle today...

Clinton's War profiteering PAC backers vs THE TRUE DEMOCRATIC BASE

I was vigilling outside the NAPALM shipping port before Uncle Sam threw a net over MY ass, and prior to 1967... You're not going to LECTURE ME about the nature of this conflict.

with or without photography

[femrap]

73. K and R

What a great job...thx for your work. I don't even want to read the responses cuz of the Hateful Ones.

Maybe the Hateful Ones are Repugnant Moles...their work designed to push Dems from the Party. I'd bet money that some of them are on this Board. The others may just be youngsters who see their futures as not too good and are filled with anger and like to take it out on HRC and her supporters.

What ever happened to 'tolerance?'

[planetc]

77. Another excellent post, and R

I'm always pleased when I get to one of Ms Taylor's in time to hit the R button, and I was quite annoyed to discover that you can't recommend after 24 hours.

Anyhow, I always read through to the end and agree with somewhere around 95-98% of what she says.

I also wish the "lie-flingers" (those who fire the Tuzla "lie" at anyone with a different opinion, and speed off on screaming tires) would refresh themselves on what the word means. It means a deliberate falsehood, and implies that the falsehood was used to gain a personal advantage over someone else.

And it finally occurred to me that IF Sen. Clinton had actually lied about her memory of her landing at Tuzla, she is too stupid to be president, because she spent the entire trip surrounded by staffers, Secret Service, her daughter, her USO volunteers, and lots of cameras. If she chose to lie about events that can be checked with dozens of witnesses and some camera footage, she isn't smart enough to be allowed out of the house by herself in the morning. Or, of course, she could just have misremembered. But it just isn't as exciting to shout: "And her memory isn't 100% accurate either!!!"-- just doesn't have the same ring as "SHE LIED!"

Sen. Clinton is getting the full treatment from the MSM, and I am sorry to see those trivia artists having any more influence that they deserve.

[Zavulon]

78. She lies like a Republican and voted for the war like a Republican.

Worse still, she's even less likable than most Republicans.

I hate a lot of Republicans, and I hate Hillary - for a variety of good reasons. Sorry, no sale.

[Pacifist Patriot]

80. This was my reaction when I reflected upon that post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5388209

[ToeBot]

81. Never a Good Reason? Even if they supported... Ralph Nader?!1!

I've read your bullshit before, back to the ignore pile with you.

[bpeale]

82. this is one of the best, most well-supported posts i have EVER read on DU

i'm bookmarking this one for future use. thanks!

[samsingh]

83. agreed

[emilyg]

85. k/r

[indimuse]

88. incredible!

Bless you...;) bookmarked!



Great Big K&R

[tomp]

90. I'm not a democrat...

...but i play one in the voting booth sometimes.

the only reason i can see there being no reason to hate another democrat is if one is opposed to hating in general, which i try to be, though reflexes get the better of me sometimes. democrats are just people. democratic politicians, on the other hand, are an entirely different breed from the run-of-the-mill democratic citizen. in general, they represent the half of the Corporate Party that is SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE they are on "our" side. there are a few select exceptions who can be counted on to take the correct stand 99% of the time and especially when the chips are down. clinton and obama are not among that small handful. if the media told the truth, citizens would know that. Certainly, McCamy Taylor ain't gonna tell 'em, and that ain't marxist.

[McCamy Taylor]

95. There are many different roles to fill. President is not a job for idealists or the faint of heart.

It is something that requires a PhD in triangulation. Maybe even 3D triangulation.

I learned that lesson young. All the college students protested LBJ, but who gave us the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act? If LBJ had had less of a conscience it would have been better for us, because he would have run again in 1968 and then we would not have had Nixon. I think LBJ could have ended the war rather than running from it, if he had given himself a little time.

And our beloved FDR---we all know how much he did to stop the Holocaust while it was happening. We just don't want to think about it, because it does not seem like it makes any difference. But it does. That is why I have no patience when the same people here forget that GHWBush left Clinton Somalia so that the American people were opposed to intervention when Rwanda happened. And because of Rwanda, we could intervene in Bosnia, but the Clintons had to fight the GOP every step of the way and it meant both of them flying into a war zone repeatedly to make their case against the lies and ridicule of the hostile press and Congress who called them the most corrupt administration ever---

Here is something from Gore Vidal in "Palimpsest"

"I wonder if her (Hillary's) interest in Jackie might not be genuine bewilderment at how a woman so selfish could be so beloved and Hillary, who wants actually to do something useful for others, is currently hated. Some obscure law of public relations is busily working overtime."

But then Gore Vidal answers his own question elsewhere

http://www.drb.ie/fa_thoughtsfrom.html

talked about Washington in general. About Eleanor Roosevelt, whom I'd known and she was fascinated by. Then I began to probe, tactfully, I hope: How well did the Clintons understand just what they were up against? Did they know who actually owns and is rather idly running the United States - a very small class into which Bush had been born and trained and they had not. So, Who? What? How? I gave an example of poignant concern. In 1992 the country, by a clear majority, wanted a health service. But insurance companies, in tandem with the medical-pharmaceutical axis, have always denounced any such scheme as Communist, and so the media, reflecting as it must the will of the ownership, had decreed that such a system is not only unworkable but un-American . The ownership spent hundreds of millions of dollars on television advertisements 'proving' that under the Clinton plan each citizen would lose his own doctor and become a cipher in a computer (which he is pretty much anyway, thanks to the FBI, etc.), while its authors were guilty of everything from murder to ill-grooming.
As an old Washingtonian, I mentioned some of the ways in which the great corporate entities destroy politicians. 'It will never be on the issues. It will always be something unexpected. Something personal. Irrelevant. From long ago. Then they will worry it to death.'
'That's certainly true.' Mrs Clinton was grim. 'No story ever ends here. Even when it's over.'
I was about to suggest that if there was to be a war (as there is) between hated insurance companies and a popular plan, why not target the insurance companies publicly and go on the attack? But Paul Newman, another guest, saved Mrs Clinton from the golden treasury of my hindsight: Get Gore to tell you about the day the horse ran away with Eartha Kitt ... '

The Clintons are the first and only authentic hippie students conscientious objector husband-wife president team we have ever had and will ever have. They worked for McGovern in Texas. They lived in Berkeley. They lived the dream.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/10/07/400814.aspx

"I think that if we can elect her president, she'll be a greater president even than her brilliant husband," McGovern told the crowd gathered in a hot barn at the Johnson County Democrats' annual barbeque."

That is why the right wing hates them. That is why they refuse to give up. When Gary Hart was caught in adultery he backed out of his presidential race and then came back too late. Clinton said "So what? What does that have to do with politics?" And a lot of Americans agreed. That really pissed off the press, which was used to being able to play Americans like suckers. If they couldn't bring down a candidate with sex, they were as good as neutered.

How did they bring down Parnell? How did they attack Jefferson? The attacks will continue. We need someone who can fight.

[tomp]

99. you are obviously incapable of making a simple point.

how you got all that out of my post is beyond me.

what we got from lbj gives support to my point that the dems are supposed to look like they're on our side. this is bone-throwing at a rooseveltian level. all that after his role in the assasination (yeah, i really said that). who knows what jfk would have given us. we could conceivably have gotten out of vietnam and gotten voting rights and civil rights.

and one of the big players behind roosevelt...averell harriman...the republican-turned-democratic-party-kingmaker, the post of which was inherited by pamela, who crowned bill clinton. one look at the harrimans is one to see exactly how close dems and repubs really are. (refer to your own previous posts about the truman doctrine, which, by the way, is still active in alternative versions)

mrs. kennedy....who gives a shit?

mrs. clinton...bill's third term. her policies are abysmal. whatever it is we get in terms of bones thrown will not be worth it. the classic democratic image over substance.

gary hart...better than some worse than others...not my type, in general.

triangulation has to stop! we, as a planet, let alone a country, have flat run out of time.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[McCamy Taylor]

96. When Obama leaves the WH he will be paid as much or more than Bill to speak.

It is a benefit of the job that all ex-presidents enjoy. Ex-Miss Americas get the same perks though their speaking fees are lower.

(ooops, now no context, someone didn't like Hillary because of how much money she and bill make)

[AX10]

98. McCamy, I am kicking this so that others can see.

MAKE IT FLOAT!

:kick: :hi:

[undeterred]

100. This forum is full of people who hate other Democrats.

And they are the ones telling everyone else to stop the hate.

[Marrah_G]

101. I read the whole thing. Thank you for taking the time to write this.

I am tired of seeing democrats acting like puppets, with the right wing pulling the strings. Why let amy dirt fall on McCain when they can simply use us and the media to do his dirty work.

You would think we, the collective Dem we, would be wise to this tactic by now.

Sadly, we are not.

I predict you will be figuratively filleted for this on DU, which again, is very sad indeed.

[NoPasaran]

102. Let it float!

[hisownpetard]

103. Never a good reason to hate a Democrat? Ladies & Gentlemen, I give you

Zell Miller...

[AX10]

104. Another kick McCamy.