Kucinich accumulating more delegates every time he opens his mouth

[tinanator]

http://www.kucinich.us/

[frank frankly]

1. way to go, dennis

dennis is a force of nature.

it would be so awesome to volunteer for him at the convention. hmmmm...

[dryan]

2. He was really good yesterday

[eridani]

16. Press release on Maine convention

Portland ME - Months of on-the-ground organizing followed by a stem-winder speech to the Maine Democratic Convention Saturday earned Congressman Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) six Maine delegates to the Democratic National Convention, to be held in Boston in July.

He earned 26 percent of the vote in the first congressional district and 31 percent in the second congressional district, where NAFTA and the WTO have resulted in sizable job losses.

Coming into the convention from the February 8 caucuses, Kucinich was running slightly under 15 percent in both congressional districts, which meant he would have earned no delegates.

Kucinich's Maine co-coordinator Lu Bauer of Standish said he built on his core support with the powerful speech he gave to the convention Saturday morning just before delegates broke into county caucuses, where they cast their votes. Bauer said Kucinich picked up support from many supporters of former candidate Sen. John Edwards, as well as a small contingent of former Howard Dean supporters, and delegates for Sen. John Kerry who don't like the direction Kerry is beginning to take on the war.

David Bright of Dixmont, Kucinich's other campaign co-coordinator in Maine, agreed that Kucinich's strong showing came from his positions on the Iraq war and his call for universal, single-payer health care.

"Clearly this was an anti-war vote," Bright said, noting that when the dust settled, Kucinich and Dean together had captured more votes than had Kerry.

Bright also cited Kucinich's health care position. In his speech, Rep. Kucinich said that if the Democratic Party came out for true universal health care, people would be lining up to vote Democratic. "Congressman Kucinich is the only one of the three major candidates calling for universal health care, not universal health insurance," Bright said, "He was right, people were lining up to vote for him."

In fact, so many state convention delegates decided to support Kucinich that in several counties more ballots for Kucinich national convention delegates had to be printed.

Kucinich left the convention shortly after his speech as was not able to savor the victory. He headed for Washington D.C. where he will appear Sunday on NBC's Meet The Press.

Kucinich for President
For more information call David Bright, 207-234-4226
May 22, 2004

[MaineDem]

24. The Kucinich people were fantastic!

I worked with both the Dean and Kucinich co-ordinators in the months leading up to the convention. I am very impressed by their enthusiasm and dedication. I've never seen a grassroots effort like this in my 30+ years in politics.

The Kucinich people especially worked their tails off to get every single Delegate and Alternate to the convention. Their efforts paid off in a big way and they're sending delegates to Boston. They deserve to be congratulated!

However their efforts also meant I couldn't go the National Convention but, given the circumstance, I don't mind at all! They deserve this!

[buddhamama]

3. Saturday's speech was amazing

I spoke to a number of Kerry and Dean supporters afterward and, the recurring theme was WOW!

Dennis received 54% of the vote in my Maine county. :thumbsup:

[WI_DEM]

4. how many delegates total does DK have?

just curious.

[tinanator]

5. click the link

do the math
Im not gonna guesstimate
my comprehension skills tend to suckle

[WI_DEM]

6. nevermind

thanks for the info.

[buddhamama]

7. Dennis has

a total of six delegates from Maine.

[mr715]

8. So is Kerry.

But Kerry gets 100s. Kucinich gets 10s

[no name no slogan]

9. Dennis doesn't have millions in his coffers

and he never has. His campaign is easily the most cost-efficient one this year. He gets more bang for his buck with each delegate he gets.

And even more amazing, although the race is supposedly "over", he still gets more and more delegates.

He doesn't have big advance teams and staff, nor has he ever had them. At most I've seen two other people with him. Otherwise it's all done by local supporters, with their own hard work, and many times their own money, too.

Dennis also does this with almost NO press coverage, and has so ever since he declared his intentions of running in Feb 2003. He has consistently been ignored and marginalized by the press-- even though most of the country is coming around to what he's been saying for over two years.

Dennis is the heart and soul of the party, taking stands that are bold and visionary-- stands that other candidates deem to "controversial", like single-payer healthcare, getting out of Iraq in months instead of years, rebuilding our neglected infrastructure with a another "New Deal" program that creates jobs, making realistic cuts in outdated, useless and non-functioning defense programs, and a guaranteed public education, pre-K through college, for all who desire one.

These are the positions that made this party great throughout the 20th century. It's truly unfortunate that some Democrats are so afraid to talk about them nowdays.

[genius]

10. Yes he does.

Where have you been?

[cyclezealot]

12. DK has 10 Million

Kerry has $100. Raising that kind of money. I am suspicious..Elections always reflect who has the most money.That is democracy..W/O there is not election.
We need public financing starting with the primaries..Cutting out its influence on the US Treasury with special interests with less voice...It would end of saving U.S. taxpayers.

11. DK's Current Delegate Count

From : http://www.kucinich.us/convention/convention_faq.php

********************************

Delegates we currently have (some numbers are projected for caucus states):

Alaska 7 delegates
American Samoa 1 delegate
Colorado 14 delegates
Hawaii 8 delegates
Maine 6 delegates
Minnesota 9 delegates
North Carolina 4 delegates
Ohio 4 delegates
Oregon 8 delegates
Washington 3 delegates
Superdelegates 2 delegates
TOTAL 66 DELEGATES

Texas and Puerto Rico may still add some additional Kucinich delegates through their convention processes.

For further clarification, please contact [e-mail]

********************************

[salonghorn70]

13. 66 Delegates

Doesn't exactly sound like a bandwagon that is steam rolling the opposition.:)

14. True, but he doesn't sound

like his campaign just dried up and died when Kerry won.

DK has done better since Kerry was declared the winner than he did when there was still a horse race.

[mr715]

17. Obviously

Obviously, thats cause Kerry is no longer campaigning in primaries and people are voting for single issue candidates.

Kerry is campaigning for the Presidency while K is still campaigning for delegates, and as such, he has more of a draw in the primaries and caucuses. However, it should be noted he still hasnt won one primary.

Edwards, Dean, and Clark are still picking up delegates too.

In fact, Edwards won another state!

Sorry buddies, but Kucinich is not doing good.


M

[no name no slogan]

18. "single issue" candidates????

Man, every time you open your mouth, you're revealing how little you really know about DK, the campaign, and its influence on the party's direction.

DK is hardly a "single-issue" candidate. As a matter of fact, more Democrats probably agree with his positions on trade, the war and healthcare than they do with John Kerry. Kerry did NOT get the nomination because he has the right stands on the issues-- he got the nomination because he is seen as the most "electable" by the folks who run this party. If you are truly interested in learning about what DK stands for (as opposed to just taking potshots at him), I strongly encourage you to visit his website (www.kucinich.us). You may be in for a suprise.

Also, there is almost NO BUSINESS conducted at national conventions anymore. This has been the case since they began to heavily televise them in 1968. After the disaster of 1968, BOTH parties have tried their damndest to turn them into little more than coronations, with great success.

Most of the real business of the party takes place at the committee meetings that occur BEFORE the convention. And although DK doesn't have a lot of "official" delegates, he has a lot of sympathy and support among many of the delegates who sit on these committees. And the fact that he's got tens of thousands of signatures on the petitions he's presenting to the platform committee will surely influence the platform and direction of this party for years to come.

I'm really not sure why, if Kucinich is so insignificant, there is so much "concern" over his campaign and what he's fighting for. IMHO it's quite a lot of worrying about nothing. He is a Democrat, and has been one for almost forty years.

Dennis has served this party faithfully, and is only helping to bring potential third-party voters into the fold. If I were a Democrat, I'd welcome his voice and those of his supporters into the fold, rather than belittle it at every turn.

[mr715]

27. Those are the talking points...

As usual, a double standard is applied when one provides criticism towards "the messiah" Kucinich.

Kucinich is a hardline protectionist and big government liberal. Kerry is a hardline internationalist liberal.

The people who I deal with, in a large liberal university in New York City are Kucinich supporters for one reason; the war in Iraq. They also dislike Kerry because, from the academic left, any success comes on the back of the oppressed.

Kucinich, if you knew much about his history, was not a leftist democrat for the bulk of his career. In fact, his positions on tax, social justice, and women's rights but him at odds with the heart and soul of the democratic party.

I have visited Kucinich's website frequently. I have spoken with his people often. He is not the messiah of the democratic party and does not represent anything different in the party.

The DLC is not a monumental evil. It is an organization which works within the bounds of American democracy; a democracy which works pretty damn good without need of revolution. You may want to question this, but rest assured, Kucinich did not get 1% in Iowa because of the DLC or the corporate media. Its because the majority of Americans are not interested in intrusive government, higher taxes, or a complete withdrawl of troops from Iraq.

Perhaps the thing that sets my view of Kucinich is the fact he proposed the establishment of a Department of Peace, which is emblematic of a political ideology that has died and been buried for a generation. It is the crystal waving, hippie, peacenik uber-liberal notion that government actually has the right to be involved in individual lives and has the power to promote morality in its citizens. I do not feel it does, but thats an honest stance I have.

I accept the fact that I am a neoliberal. I don't fault (controlled) capitalism for making a profit, and I do not think that globalization and free trade are inherently evil. I do not think NAFTA or the WTO should be scrapped, though I do wholeheartedly believe that need to be reworked to provide for environmental and labor protections.

Excuse me sir, but if you knew more about the history of Kucinich's ideas, you would know his platform is a nail in the coffin of the democratic party. He is running on ideals of a party that are entirely luxuries. MAYBE if we win the House, the Senate, and the White house, and remedy the damage that Bush has done to the country, we will be able to start down a path of perceived social justice that Kucinich and his supporters are envisioning. Now is not the time to waste time and energy campaigning...

Every step Kucinich takes to get himself delegates that will have no political clout and will have no influence on the direction of the nation is one step he has not taken to get Kerry elected.

If you claim to me that Kerry is less concerned with the state of the nation than is Kucinich, I will urge you to review Kerry's record.

If you believe that Kerry represents the corporate interests, I will urge you to review his campaign finances and the fact that he is more liberal than Kucinich on virturally all indepenendent surveys.

Do not presume to tell me how little I know about this country and its servants sir. I am simply more concerned about actually winning the war against Bush than promoting a candidate.

[eridani]

28. Intrusive government, my ass. What planet are you on, anyway?

What in bleeding hell do you call the Patriot Act? Kucinich voted against it, and Kerry did not. Do you call imprisoning a higher percentage of its citizens than any other industrialized country the behavior of a 'non-intrusive' government? Which candidate is foresquare against imprisoning vast numbers of people for marijuana use?

Here's a clue for you--in order to do trade without high tariffs (the traditional definition of 'free trade'), you don't need to have unelected bodies answerable only to corporations which can overrule any country's labor and environmental laws. And if you'd done your homework, you'd know that WTO is set up precisely to rule out changes related to such laws.

The DLC has joined with Republicans in a wholesale assault on the very existence of a public sphere. This whole "taxes are evil" schtick is a repudiation of the entire notion of citizenship.

http://www.counterpunch.org/smith05052003.html

'Customer' and 'consumer' were not the only words being used to change the nature of citizenship. David Kemmis, the mayor of Missoula, MT, pointed out that the word 'taxpayer' now "regularly holds the place which in a true democracy would be occupied by 'citizen.' Taxpayers bear a dual relationship to government, neither half of which has anything at all to do with democracy. Taxpayers pay tribute to the government and they receive services from it. So does every subject of a totalitarian regime. What taxpayers do not do, and what people who call themselves taxpayers have long since stopped even imagining themselves doing, is governing."

People who hadn't lost hope in the prospect of governing themselves would readily see health care as infrastructure, to be publicly funded with extensive public oversight. According to the Pew Foundation, 82% of Dems and 51% of Republicans prefer universal health care to the Bush tax cuts. What in bleeding hell is wrong with a party that can't turn public attitudes like that into actual policy?

[mr715]

30. Going point by point

1 - The USA PATRIOT Act was passed overwhelmingly by both the House and the Senate in a time of great national stress. It included a sunset provision, a common legislative strategy to maintain passive control.

That sunset provision was advocated for and introduced by Kerry himself. Why did Kerry vote for the USA PATRIOT Act? Well, given his stance on civil liberties, the reason is very clear.

He saw a more clear and present danger for the American people, and thought that the USA PATRIOT act would eliminate that threat while not endangering civil liberties due to the sunset provision present within the statute. Its a question of priorities. If the USA PATRIOT act actually does enhance national security is questionable, but the reason it was voted for is clear - if it could prevent one act following 9/11, then its worth dealing with for several months.

Free trade, as you suggest, does not require unelected tribunals to settle trade disputes, and I agree with you. NAFTA v. Metalclad (1994, I believe) suggests, however, that the problem with trade tribunals is the fact that no authority is clearly written into their statues. Free trade is not bad. Corporations are not evil. The leadership we have now is.

The DLC reigned over the Clinton/Gore administration and oversaw the greatest economic expansion in democratic history. The public sector is a necessary a`spect of our existence as a social safety net, but not as the primary means of employment. Additionally, incentives provided by the government are not as convincing as those provided by the private sector. This is clear; look at the failure of market systems which relied on public involvement in the development of products.

The DLC represents the wing of the democratic party which is willing to accept political reality. Single payer health care will not pass - not because it isnt supported, but because it is not a priority for most legislators.

This whole arguement eclipses another, deeper, issue. The fact that John Kerry is not a member of the DLC in any way other than nominally. But thats for another day.

The democratic party cannot win elections if spends taxes wantonly, as it is likely to be painted by the GOP. As I said, this election is more important than that. This election, we need to stop the cancer Bush has inflicted upon us. When the cancer is cleaned from our nation's body, we can have a face lift.

Kerry is an oncologist. Kucinich is a plastic surgeon.

[eridani]

33. A tech bubble is not an expansion

Most of the benefits of the upside of the last business cycle accrued to the top 1% of the population. Tech stocks exploded, but homeless shelters and food banks did as well. But the really dramatic explosion was in the prison population as a result of the escalation of the War on Some Drugs, which only Kucinich has had the balls to criticize.

The public sector should be responsible for infrastructure, period. Hospitals and fire departments and roads are infrastructure--they are not consumer products. Has anyone ever suggested that the government should be designing consumer endproducts? I've never heard Kucinich say anything of the sort.

The DLC consists of a bunch of gutless pukes who refuse to help create political reality, passively accepting the Republican framing of political discourse instead of actively countering it. When health care is a priority for citizens but not legislators, something is very, very badly wrong. That you are more worried about the GOP characterization of Democrats as people who spend taxes wantonly, as opposed to the reality that this is not the case (see Iraq war expenses) speaks volumes. You have just said "Don't even bother to try to fight it. The Republican framing is obviously correct."

I'm really having trouble wrapping my mind around the notion that there could be anyone concerned about government intrusiveness who would consider defending the Patriot Act for 2 seconds. Eliminating habeas corpus whenever the Psychopath in Chief says it's OK is being against government intrusiveness? Well, whatever.

The reality is that Kerry was a coward, going along with the crowd in a stressful situation just like the soldiers at Abu Ghraib. Kucinich refused to be panicked into taking our own rights away, something that terrorists can't do to us but that we can do to ourselves. That anything in the bill could contribute to preventing another terrorist attack is just horseshit, and you and Kerry both know it. (Glad he helped with the sunset provision, obviously.) All the information to prevent 9-11 was already in the system without benefit of the Patriot Act--it just wasn't put together properly. And if your problem is finding the needle in the haystack, all the Patriot Act does is to add a few million extra tons of hay.

The oncologist/plastic surgeon analogy is good, except that you have it assbackwards. Of course either is preferable to having a mass murderer as president.

[mr715]

34. Le sigh

Infrastructure is handled by the public sector. Fire departments and roads are cared for by a joint partnership of local, State and Federal governments (roads more than fire departments).

The market "bubble" does not negate the fact that Clinton neo-liberalism was the fastest growth in the American economy in the history of this nation. The Dow went from 4000 to near 20,000. Even if it dropped as a result of worthless stocks going belly up, the economy was strong because of sound neoliberal politics.

The War on Drugs is a political hot topic. I regret I have no strong policy stances on it, but I have no great empathy towards people that use drugs. Pot smoking is on the grey edges of the law and should be viewed with less retributive justice than it is, but nonetheless, we operate in the political system that we live in. If people are aware they get 10 years, they should factor that into their decisions. Change will come, as it is warrented.

Healthcare may be considered in many ways the gateway into government ownership of manufacturing. Single payer healthcare results in government inefficiency and poor initiative on the parts of service providers. If you want to dispute this, I recommend you look to the British healthcare system which is a miserable failure.

The only way to perserve effective health care is to allow competition with government standards. Health care, as far as I'm concerned, should be a public-private hybrid, funded in part by the government, but allowed to grow as a business (as I said, I am a neoliberal).

The DLC does not bow to republican created reality. The DLC undnerstands that we are a 49-49-2 nation. If Kucinich represented the democratic party, he would not have less than .5% of the delegates

We can debate the PATRIOT act all ya want. As a NYer, I saw it as a law passed by democrats trying to protect people in a time of danger. In times of war, we sacrifice civil liberties for security (WWI, WWII, Civil War, etc.). Thats why Kerry did it, not because he was a coward. He did it because he had to vote against his conscience to protect lives. Even if it didnt work (which I agree, it likely did not), he voted for it in the hopes it would, by putting faith in the executive who failed; not Kerry.

I dont want government on my back, when I have a choice. But I'll take more government intrusiveness when I have assasins following me... There is a difference between the governmentn trying to protect people and Kucinich developing a Department of Peace, Fluffy Bunnies and Babysitting.

The analogy is sound as stated.

Kerry's policies will save our nation by eliminating the cancer.

Kucinich's policies will make us look more democratically perfect (and get us hot European chicks)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. "The DLC undnerstands that we are a 49-49-2 nation."

Not quite.

We're a 24.5-24.5-1 nation with 50 percent who don't vote and therefore have either been too dumbed down or too disillusioned to vote.

[lastliberalintexas]

43. Shh!

We wouldn't want that other 50% to show up at the polls- after all, they might actually demand a voice in their government and real regulation of Corporate America. :-)


And congrats to DK and his supporters. Too bad some people have to show up to rain on the parade...

[eridani]

38. Health care as a business--utterly contemptible and immoral

I mean the financing of it--it should continue to be provided by both private and public providers. It has fuckall to do with the government taking over GE or Microsoft.

The entire purpose of private insurance is to steal money from the public, taking it from healthy people and giving it to their stockholders, and denying as much care as possible. The purpose of public insurance is to take money from healthy people and use it to take care of sick people. This should not be a business relationship, any more than a fire department is. You should get care no matter who you are by right, just as the fire department puts out fires in $100,000 homes as fast as fires in million dollar homes, despite the fact that the latter pay more property tax.

The notion that competition improves health care has already been disproven by comparing the cost of hospitalization in towns that have only one hospital vs. towns of similar size with more than one hospital. The results are clear--the more hospitals, the more expensive health care is. The reason is that you have the same number of sick people, but far more equipment that needs to be paid for in the latter case. This kind of idiocy is the reason that cities have only one fire department instead of several competing ones. (That said, competition for frills, bells, and whistles is fine by me. I don't care if some rich guy puts an expensive sprinkler system in his house that I can't afford--all I want is equally prompt attention from the fire department.)

BTW, Kucinich is proposing something similar to Canada, not Britain. Only financing is public--providers will not become government employees.

The DLC is creating reality, not recognizing it. The 49-49-2 split is a result of their gutless whoremongering, not something that they just take note of. That split has not always been the case--40 years ago, far more people considered themselves Democrats, mainly because of the huge benefits that government initiatives (NSF and heavy science and higher education investment, GI bill, interstate highway system, federally subsidized mortgages, unemployment insurance, deposit insurance, etc.) brought to their lives.

It takes a DLC supporter, I suppose, to confuse the stock market with economic reality. The 5-fold increase was an increase in bullshit pretend value, not in real value. Real capital is natural capital (air, water, soil, oil, minerals), human-constructed capital (houses, factories, etc.) and human knowledge capital (skill sets and the social support systems that make the utilization of other capital possible). We have less, not more, natural capital. We surely have more of the other two kinds, but we damned well don't have FIVE TIMES as much of it as we had in 1990. That's why the huge increase in homelessness, food aid, and prison population--not at all the kind of 'growth' that a really sane society would want.

Protecting people in a time of danger? That's ridiculous. We are in no more danger now than we were in 1993 at the time of the first WTC bombing. I'm actually more worried about thousands more unemployable Tim McVeigh types than Al Qaeda. The hundreds of pages of the Patriot Act were were written well before 9-11, and the cowards who didn't have time to actually read it should have smelled a rat.

The big Kucinich issues are health care, the war, and jobs. The Department of Peace is a nice frill, and nowhere near as silly as missile 'defense.' Kerry has no policy worth discussing on these issues. Though his environmental and alternate energy policies are by themselves reason enough to vote for him, they don't come close to being enough to curing our national cancer. That would be Kucinich whose policies do that.

[mr715]

41. Keep em coming

Public financing of health care blurs the line of distinction between public and private. Private citizens should always have to directly pay for services... Perhaps if they are unable to afford, then government can intervene, but I do not feel that single payer healthcare is going to effectively reduce the problem of universally acceptable health care, eliminating government waste, maximizing efficiency, or controlling corruption. It wont. Look at Canadian health care. It aint as good as we got either.

Those initiatives you list are the very initiatives that Kerry has fought for and will fight for. Why people insist that Kucinich is somehow purer than Kerry is ridiculous, and just shows how little most people know about John Kerry and his unabashedly liberal credentials. Heck, he's almost too liberal for me!

Despite what you may believe, we live in corporate capitalism. As such, the stock markets reflect the publics realm of interaction with the economic system we live in. The stock market increase represented an expansion of profits in workers, in entrepreneaurs(spelled wrong), and in resource availability.

While I agree that an economic system relying on resources (physical and mental) would be ideal, we dont live in that society. We live in corporate neoliberal capitalism... Money is the media, not "good vibes"

I'm not saying that the USA PATRIOT act did anything. I am saying that it was passed because our Congressmen prioritized. We could not know if it would be useless or not. Ultimately, support for it was to protect citizens, however.

Kucinich's policies are luxuries. We dont need them to survive. Maybe when the country is on the right track, we can adopt some of them.

And a Dept of Peace is more ridiculous than missile defense. Missile defense doesnt work, but it at least it has a purpose. A Dept of Peace has no purpose other than to appease crystal waving hippies thata think all violence is bad violence.

[eridani]

45. Canadian health care is vastly better than what we have

I should know--I live in WA state and we send people up there by the busload for basic health care. They do a far better job of controlling costs with global budgeting. Private insurers are not only thieves, they are stupid. Using their methods for cost control, a cattle rancher would dispense with fences and hire a bunch of cowpokes with individual sets of reins for each cow. The Canadians are smart--global budgeting does the equivalent of building a fence around the cows and allowing them full freedom of movement within. And last I heard, Canada was still a capitalist country. So is Taiwan, which instituted single payer in 1998. They are pleased as punch with what the consider the real proof of their arrival as a fully developed country. DLC dimwits would seem to prefer that the US remain an underdeveloped country, like 'communist' China, which does not currently have guaranteed health care.

Health care funding that isn't public is legalized theft organized by certifiable psychopaths, period. It should be public for the same reason that fire departments are public. (And that does not rule out bells and whistles for those who want to do them on their own dime.) Fire departments weren't always public--there used to be competing insurers. If your neighbor's uninsured house burned and set fire to yours, tough shit. If competing fire departments preferred to spray water on each other instead of the fire, tough shit. Luckily, Benjamin Franklin put a stop to that stupidity with North America's first public fire department in the late 1760s, and nobody has been idiotic enough to reinstate 'competion' since.

Universal health care is a luxury? The 18,000 per year who die in this country from being denied health care would surely disagree with you if they were still around to do so. That's six 9-11s a year. If you think that having a job is a luxury, talk with people whose earning capacity has been halved by outsourcing.

Reality check--we do actually live in a society which relies on physical and mental resources. A pile of stock certificates can keep your house warm for about five minutes, tops. (Check out Paul Hawken's Natural Capitalism for more in-depth discussion.)

Patriot Act passed because our cowardly representatives were stampeded into it. Anyone who has actually read it understands that it protects nobody. Hassling postmenopausal nuns with osteoporosis and pacifist vegetarian Lesbians contributes absolutely zilch to counteracting terrorism.

Crystal waving hippies are far more in touch with reality than the 'realists' who absolutely refuse to recognize the basic strategic reality of the 21st century, namely that domination is extremely expensive, and FSU (Fucking Shit Up) is extremely cheap.

The fluffy bunny 'realists' think that wishing makes it so. Al Qaeda and other terror groups are loose networks without any hierarchial command structure. But the American miltary is very good at fighting armies with traditional command structures, so the fluffy bunny people stamp their widdle feet and insist that terrorists are too traditional armies because they want them to be. They think that having military bases all over the world will stop people like that whackjob in South Korea who lit off a container of gas in a subway, killing 135 people. It would be really useful if they approached the level of connection with reality attained by crystal waving hippies.

[Lefty Pragmatist]

29. Is that neoliberalism?

Because to me it's Clinton Liberalism, and all that did was win two elections and give us a boom economy for 7 years.

(Obviously), I agree with your p.o.v., and I do not think DK's ideas represent either a winning electoral strategy or a coherent direction for economic policy. But. I *do* see DK as an extremely admirable, positive influence within the party. It may be too late for us, but I really want to see idealists join and fuel the party. Believe me, they'll moderate and accomodate, because as we know that's what needs to happen to gain real power -- it is indeed what *should* happen in a representative democracy. The alternative is the bait and switch we see from the neocons.

People, it looks as if we might have a winner to back in November. I'm 41 and trust me, that is not an opportunity to be squandered. Imagine how much better off the country would have been with just a little more oomph behind Gore.

Give Kerry the support and we will all work to improve the country through the rather extensive shared subset of our liberal ideas.

It sho' beats prayer in schools.

[mr715]

31. Yup

A rose by any other name...

Neoliberalism = Rubin-econoomics = Clintonian liberalism = Progressive tax structure

As I understood it, liberalism was maximizing efficiency in government by deregulating sectors of the economy which did not need regulation.

As opposed to neoconservativism, which is rape and pillage the world.

[salonghorn70]

36. Welcome To DU mr715

I agree with everything that you said.:hi:

[no name no slogan]

42. Not talking points, but the TRUTH

As usual, a double standard is applied when one provides criticism towards "the messiah" Kucinich.

Messiah? WTF? Please, I've been involved in far too many campaigns to know that no politician is a messiah, be he Mike Dukakis, Jesse Jackson, Paul Wellstone, Mark Dayton or Dennis Kucinich.

In fact, I've found Dennis Kucinich to be one of the few outspoken, well-thought-out politicians of our age. And I was involved with Paul Wellstone's 1990 campaign from his endorsement fight, to the convention, to winning the DFL primary! I think I'd know a think or two about "messiahs" and politicians by now.

Kucinich is a hardline protectionist and big government liberal. Kerry is a hardline internationalist liberal.

BZZZT!!! WRONG! Kucinich is no more a "protectionist" than Kerry is. DK is NOT against international trade-- he is in favor of FAIR trade, based upon the rights of workers and people instead of the whims of transnational corporations. Because of the rules of the WTO, it is NOT POSSIBLE to change NAFTA to be more "humane". To do so would violate the rules of the WTO and would lead to sanctions against the US. Therefore, the only way to get REAL enforcement of human rights standards into NAFTA would be to scrap it, and renegotiate it.

We already tried setting up "side agreements" for human rights with NAFTA, but since these agreements are not actually part of the treaty, they can be summarily ignored-- and have been, despite what Sen. Kerry wishes.

The people who I deal with, in a large liberal university in New York City are Kucinich supporters for one reason; the war in Iraq. They also dislike Kerry because, from the academic left, any success comes on the back of the oppressed.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that the "academic left" dislikes Kerry because they hate success? Or are you saying that Kerry is successful because he made his money on the backs of the oppressed?

Either way, you're trying to set up a convenient strawman that somehow represents ALL Kucinich supporters. And, like all strawmen, it is a grossly, wildly inaccurate description of his supporters.

Maybe it's because you spend your time at a "large, liberal University in New York City", but you may be impressed to know that among his supporters that I know personally are labor union members/organizers, stay-at-home parents, a grocery store manager, a state director for the Campaign to Ban Landmines, college and high school students, unemployed people, tech workers, students, a couple of farmers, steelworkers, a number of state legislators, and people working jobs that barely pay above minimum wage. Of course, there may be a couple of "success-hating" liberal college professors in there, but I've not met one of those yet.

Kucinich, if you knew much about his history, was not a leftist democrat for the bulk of his career. In fact, his positions on tax, social justice, and women's rights but him at odds with the heart and soul of the democratic party.

But I DO know Kucinich's history! And I'd have to disagree with you regarding his stances on taxes and social justice. And it's true, he probably was not a "leftist democrat" for the bulk of his career-- he WAS in the MAINSTREAM of the party until it started its race to the right in the 1980s.

As far as his stances on what you blithely refer to as "women's rights", Kucinich has admitted that he's changed his mind on the issue. Also, when he voted against the "pro-choice" position, he was oftentimes at odd with the radical "pro-lifers", too.

And if you're so concerned about "womens rights" as you claim, how on earth could you have supported Al Gore in 2000? Up until 1988, he was solidly "pro-life", as was Dick Gephardt. Does that mean that you voted for GeeDubya Bush in 2000, or even Ralph Nader?

By today's standards, Hubert Humphrey and George McGovern were BOTH "pro-life" in 1972. Both of them opposed "abortion on demand" and tried to distance themselves as far as possible from that position. Does that make either of these men lesser Democrats in your view?

I have visited Kucinich's website frequently. I have spoken with his people often. He is not the messiah of the democratic party and does not represent anything different in the party.

I'm glad to hear you've visited his website and spoken to his people often. However, it doesn't sound like you've actually READ his website or LISTENED to his people, unfortunately. And you're right, he's not the messiah of anything, and does not represent anything different in the party. If anything, he represents what this party REALLY stands for, or used to stand for before we became so corporate-friendly.

Dennis stands up for long-held Democratic party values and beliefs, like living wages, fair trade agreements, universal health care, sane defense spending, and a better balance between corporate control and people's rights. Unfortunately, these ideas seem rather "radical" to the so-called "neo-liberals" in this party who are more concerned about the rights corporations than those of people.

The DLC is not a monumental evil. It is an organization which works within the bounds of American democracy; a democracy which works pretty damn good without need of revolution. You may want to question this, but rest assured, Kucinich did not get 1% in Iowa because of the DLC or the corporate media. Its because the majority of Americans are not interested in intrusive government, higher taxes, or a complete withdrawl of troops from Iraq.

He got 1% in Iowa (actually it was 1.4%, but who's counting), and continued getting more and more votes as the race went on. In my state, he got 18% of the vote, and our presence at the state convention was closer to 30% overall, if not more. Maine just elected 25% of their national delegates for Kucinich. For a race that's already decided, that says quite a bit, IMHO.

True, most Americans don't like intrusive government, but most also believe in a strong public educational system, a FAIR tax system, and more and more are realizing that we have to get out of Iraq sooner rather than later. One of my own Senators (Mark Dayton, D-MN, a prominent Kerry supporter) just proposed a plan to get our troops out of Iraq within six months-- a plan that is remarkably similar to the plan Kucinich has championed for over a year. The longer the war goes on, the more unpopular it gets, and the more people demand we give up control of the country-- financial, political AND military.

Perhaps the thing that sets my view of Kucinich is the fact he proposed the establishment of a Department of Peace, which is emblematic of a political ideology that has died and been buried for a generation. It is the crystal waving, hippie, peacenik uber-liberal notion that government actually has the right to be involved in individual lives and has the power to promote morality in its citizens. I do not feel it does, but thats an honest stance I have.

Unfortunately, it looks like you have not even studied the proposal for the Department of Peace, much less even thought about it. Thankfully, not everybody agrees with you on this. There are 50+ representatives in the House who have signed on as co-sponsors of this bill, including my own, MN's 5th District Rep. Martin Sabo.

And once again, your strawman of "crystal waving, hippie, peacenik uber-liberal" hippies would be hilarious if it weren't so downright ignorant. Would you call the grandson of Mohandas Gandhi a "crystal wearing hippy"? Or how about these fine US House members:

Abercrombie, Neil (D-HI, 1st)
Baldwin , Tammy (D-WI, 2nd)
Brown, Sherrod (D-OH, 13th)
Carson, Julia (D-IN, 7th)
Clay William (D-MO, 1st)
Conyers, John (D-MI, 14th)
Cummings, Elijah (D-MD, 7th)
Davis, Danny (D-IL, 7th)
DeFazio, Peter (D-OR, 4th)
Evans, Lane (D-IL, 17th)
Farr, Sam (D-CA, 17th)
Filner, Bob (D-CA, 51st)
Grijalva , Raol (D-AZ, 7th)
Gutierrez, Luis (D-IL, 4th)
Hinchey, Maurice (D-NY, 22nd)
Holt, Rush D. (D- NJ)
Honda, Michael (D-CA, 15th)
Jackson, Jesse (D-IL, 2nd)
Jackson-Lee (D-TX, 18th)
Johnson, Eddie Bernice (D-TX, 30th)
Kucinich, Dennis (D-OH, 10th)
Lee, Barbara (D-CA, 9th)
Lewis, John (D-GA, 5th)
Maloney, Carolyn (D-NY, 14th)
McDermott, Jim (D-WA, 7th)
McGovern, James (D-MA, 3rd)
Meeks, Gregory (D-NY, 6th)
Miller, George (D-CA, 7th)
Nadler, Jerrold (D-NY, 8th)
Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-DC)
Oberstar, James (D-MN, 8th)
Olver, John (D-MA, 1st)
Owens, Major (D-NY, 14th)
Payne, Donald (D-NJ,10th)
Rahall, Nick (D-WV, 3rd)
Rangel, Charles (D-NY,15th)
Ryan, Tim (D-OH, 17th)
Sanders, Bernard (I-VT, At Large)
Schakowsky, Janice (D-IL, 9th)
Scott, Bobby (D-VA, 3rd)
Serrano, Jose (D-NY, 16th)
Solis, Hilda (D-CA, 32nd)
Stark, Fortney (D-CA,13th)
Thompson, Bennie (D- MS 2nd)
Towns, Edolphus (D-NY, 10th)
Tubbs Jones, Stephanie (D-OH, 11th)
Velazquez, Nydia (D-NY,12th)
Waters, Maxine (D-CA,35th)
Watson, Diane (D-CA, 33rd)
Woolsey, Lynn (D-CA,6th)

Hardly a bunch of "crystal-wearing hippies", I'd say.

I accept the fact that I am a neoliberal. I don't fault (controlled) capitalism for making a profit, and I do not think that globalization and free trade are inherently evil. I do not think NAFTA or the WTO should be scrapped, though I do wholeheartedly believe that need to be reworked to provide for environmental and labor protections.

Actually, I'm not really that far off from you. I too believe in capitalism, but I don't agree with the "corporate welfare" system we've set up in this country, that favors concentration of power in the hands of a few at the expense of the rest of us.

I also disagree that NAFTA and the WTO don't need to be scrapped. According to the WTO rules, we CAN'T alter NAFTA because we'd be heavily penalized for it. Also, the WTO reserves certain powers to itself that override those of sovereign governments-- a frightening thought to ANYBODY who opposes the power of "big government".

Excuse me sir, but if you knew more about the history of Kucinich's ideas, you would know his platform is a nail in the coffin of the democratic party. He is running on ideals of a party that are entirely luxuries. MAYBE if we win the House, the Senate, and the White house, and remedy the damage that Bush has done to the country, we will be able to start down a path of perceived social justice that Kucinich and his supporters are envisioning. Now is not the time to waste time and energy campaigning...

"Nail in the coffin" of the Democratic Party? Hmmm, better tell that to Hubert Humphrey, Gene McCarthy, Paul Wellstone, the Kennedys, FDR, LBJ, and a whole host of other Democrats who've proudly served this country as lawmakers over the last 70 years.

And I'm still not sure what you mean by "luxuries". Are living wages a "luxury"? How about access to health care? Or how about the right to be free from something like the USA PATRIOT act (which DK voted against, BTW)?

And what is this "MAYBE" attitude about winning the House and Senate? It's this same piss-poor attitude of settling for whatever the Repubs give us that's caused the ruination of this party-- no thanks to your pals in the DLC. We've adopted THEIR language, and are fighting on THEIR terms.

If we start by conceding the Senate AND House to the GOP, what does that leave for the presidency? Why are the "neo-liberals" in such a hurry to send this party down the river before the damned fight has even BEGUN? Do you folks REALLY want to see a strong, principled party that stands FOR SOMETHING, or would you prefer the present, mealy-mouthed apologetic party that is "not Bush", but not much else? What do you have against a two-party system????

Every step Kucinich takes to get himself delegates that will have no political clout and will have no influence on the direction of the nation is one step he has not taken to get Kerry elected.

NOT ONCE has Kucinich attacked Kerry since Kerry got the delegates needed for the nomination. Kucinich is doing this party a HUGE favor by keeping progressive voters interested in the Democrats, and keeping progressive issues in front of the party's decision-makers.

If you claim to me that Kerry is less concerned with the state of the nation than is Kucinich, I will urge you to review Kerry's record.

I've never claimed any such thing. Please stop inferring things about me, as I've not done that to you. And please refrain from putting words in my mouth-- I am NOT your strawman.

If you believe that Kerry represents the corporate interests, I will urge you to review his campaign finances and the fact that he is more liberal than Kucinich on virturally all indepenendent surveys.

Kerry has taken money from corporate interests, but so has Kucinich. However, Kerry has taken more money from corporate interests and their allies. Kerry's 9th largest contributor, his brother's law firm, makes its money by defending big media companies from government regulation-- its client list includes Rupert Murdoch and FOX. Kerry has also voted for some very pro-corporate legislation, like the 1996 Telecom Act. His "liberal" record includes all three terms in the Senate, and most of his "liberal" votes occurred a decade ago. I'm not sure where you're getting your "virtually all" numbers from, but I'd put Kucinich's numbers up against Kerry's any time-- I think you'd find them to be very similar.

Do not presume to tell me how little I know about this country and its servants sir. I am simply more concerned about actually winning the war against Bush than promoting a candidate.

I've never presumed to do any such thing. I, too, am concerned about beating the Shrub in November. However, I also believe that the only way we can win is to provide the voters of this country a REAL alternative to El Arbusto-- not just one that's "a little better" or "different enough".

Shrub's approval numbers are crashing. We need to put forth a message that is defiantly anti-Bush, and one that represents hope and prosperity for ALL of us.

Given the choice between a strong Republican and a so-so Democrat, voters will pick the Republican every time? Why? Because the Repub has a VISION and is not afraid to stand for it. Without a strong vision (that is completely different from the GOP one), we WILL NOT win.

Right now, it's ours to lose. But we have to take a stand on this and show America what we're all about-- not just what we're not.

[Nederland]

46. Question

You said:

Because of the rules of the WTO, it is NOT POSSIBLE to change NAFTA to be more "humane". To do so would violate the rules of the WTO and would lead to sanctions against the US.


I am unfamiliar with the rules you are referring to. Could you please tell me what section of the WTO charter they exist in?

http://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/04-wto.pdf

Thanks.

[LWolf]

15. No surprise.

:thumbsup:

[minkyboodle]

19. Kucinich inspires me

I don't care how many delegates he gets. He makes me feel like I've actually got a place within this big party of ours. I can also say that his candidacy has brought 4-5 possible Nader voters that I know over to the Dems.... Go Dennis!!!!!!

[cyclezealot]

20. It's gonna take Dennis to convince us to vote for Kerry.

Because I doubt Kerry can.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

22. How true,

Bush provides more inspiration to vote for Kerry than Kerry provides inspriation to vote for Kerry.

As you say, " Because I doubt Kerry can."

TWL

[kimchi]

21. Dennis is the hardest working man I've ever seen.

He is also the strangest! It seems to me that he might be honest and that he might actually give a shit about the people he represents and those he hopes to represent. He inspires me to work for those ideals I've only dreamed of even discussing in our increasingly fascist America.

Strangest damn thing I've ever come across.

[LWolf]

23. It is strange, isn't it?

Imagine if it were a common thing for our reps to be honest and actually give a shit about us. What kind of America would we be?

He has also inspired me to work towards ideals I thought were dead in the United States.

That is a more powerful statement than any number of votes or delegates.

[no name no slogan]

44. I agree, and I got involved in politics because of Wellstone!

I first got into party politics in the late 80s, when Paul Wellstone helped a bunch of college kids get rid of the most obnoxious right-wing politician who ever inhabited Minnesota's state legislature (Alan Quist, for those who may know him). Paul was human, frank, and energetic, and knew how to get people involved and make them matter in the process.

I worked hard on Paul's 1990 campaign. Keep in mind this is before he was the "liberal saviour", and was just a college professor from southern MN. He faced very stiff competition for the party endorsement, as the "party regulars" had lined up behind a suburban lawyer and ex-state legislator. However, Paul tapped the grassroots and had the "boots on the ground" to win the caucuses-- and the delegates to the state convention.

He didn't have a majority of the delegates going into the convention, but he eventually won endorsement on the 7th ballot. I am pleased to say that I was one of those delegates who voted for him on all seven ballots.

After the endorsement, one of his opponents decided to take it to the primary. Almost all the party regulars seemed convinced that Wellstone could not win, and this was just another exercize in "tilting at windmills". However, Paul won the primary in September, and continued fighting to November.

Although he was outspent 7 to 1 by his opponent, he managed to pull off an upset victory of 51% to 49%. WE WON!!!! And better yet, we proved to the party "establishment" that a true issues-based grassroots campaign COULD make a difference!

I've met Dennis a couple of times, and talked on the phone to him too, and I see a lot of the same things in him that Paul Wellstone had: the ability to listen, to value the opinions of others, and to stand up for his convictions, whether they were popular or not.

He is truly one of those rare politicians who is "above" politics-- he not only talks the talk, but walks the walk, too. And he's not afraid to do so, no matter what the opposition.

We're very lucky to have him on our side, and I look forward to having him speak on our issues in the future!

:toast:

[TexasSissy]

25. A vote for anyone other than Kerry is a vote for *

I like Kucinich, but dragging votes from the Dem. Party nominee, who will be Kerry, is in effect giving votes to Bush.

Nader and Kucinich need to think of the country and its citizens, rather than themselves.

[goodhue]

26. very confused

Your stated rule applies only to the general election. Kucinich will not be running in the general election. Kucinich is dragging votes to the Democratic nominee, not away from the nominee.

I'm continually amazed by the number of people who simply don't understand what Dennis is doing for the party, presumably because they are unwilling to understand. Their attitude drags votes away from the democratic nominee. But I will not be deterred in helping Dennis bring progressive votes into the party and to the nominee.

[buddhamama]

32. huh ???

i am baffled.

how are Kucinich and Nader even remotely similar?

1) DK is a DEM running as a DEM
2) Nader is not a DEM he's running as a Reform party candidate and/or independent
3) John Kerry has not accepted the nomination yet, which in all likelihood he will not till Boston in July.
4) Kucinich has stated over and over again that he will stand behind Kerry's nomination WHEN the times comes.
5) Dennis is not dragging votes from the DEM party, Because HE IS A DEM.
6) By continuing his 'Presidential' race, Dennis is actively campaigning for National Delegates for the DEM Party Convention. This will allow Democrats who Dennis has represented in his run to have a voice within the Democratic party, platform being most important.

7) Civics Lessons and/or Politicing 101 classes are available to anyone interested. i suggest People who are unfamiliar with the political process Get Educated.

[juajen]

35. Glad to see him in Montana

They're some really good liberals up there. I know, one is my brother.

[jsw_81]

39. Kucinich needs to sit down and be quiet

He lost the nomination by a landslide -- placing a dismal third in his home state -- and it's time for him and his handful of supporters to sit down and accept the fact that John Kerry is in the driver's seat. All of the other candidates (even Dean!) did this, so why can't Kucinich?

[minkyboodle]

40. lovely

with that attitude you are sure to encourage left leaning Dem's and greens to vote for Kerry. Dennis has every right to do all he can from now until the convention to try influence the direction the party's platform will take. Like I said earlier in this thread, Dennis' candidacy and advocacy has brought several former Green voters I know back into the Democratic fold. Good thing they won't see your post....

[salonghorn70]

47. Yes and No

He has the RIGHT to do it but that doesn't mean it is the RIGHT thing to do.

[LWolf]

48. I want to thank Dennis Kucinich

for staying in the race. For modeling the democratic process. For giving the non-DLC contingency a voice. For taking the people's issues to the convention.

This weekend is payday; I'm sending another check. That's the best way I can think of to thank him for his efforts; to thank him for not giving up, for not backing off, and for working constructively for change.

I'll fund his efforts, since I can't make it to Boston to help in person.

Where is that pic of Jello Biafra when I need it?

[eridani]

49. Where's the pic of Dennis with the rainbow? n/t

[LWolf]

50. That one would work, too.

;-)