Rev. Wright, the US government did not inject African-American men with syphilis.

[11 Bravo]

As a part of the Tuskegee Experiment, the government refused to treat African-American men who had already contracted syphilis in order to monitor the effects of the disease. Clearly this was one of the most shameful and inexcusable moments in American history, but the reality was bad enough without falsely over-stating the evil of the event.

[blm]

1. How do you know how far or how short the govt. was willing to go?

How do you know?

Would your government ever suggest a plan to blow up a rocket with astronaut John Glenn in it and blame Cuba, just so they could have the American people's approval to invade Cuba?

Would your government use drugrunning and armsdealing money to fund global terror networks, AND dump TONS of cheap IranContra cocaine into America's cities for years, targeting black communities?

[mattvermont]

3. can I have an...

Amen?

[David Zephyr]

7. Amen to blm.

Amen indeed.

[knixphan]

138. amen!

[JoFerret]

9. We don't. But as the facts are bad enough

...we need not invent others to bolster the case.

[blm]

14. The truth is never completely known because closed government gets supported by

citizens who don't WANT to use their duty to access the information that they CAN get let alone that which is obstructed.

I have no sympathy anymore for the words or the goals of any Democrat who sides with secrecy and privilege of closed government because they can't FATHOM the need to hold their government accountable to the CITIZENS who possess the right to DEMAND their government be open to them.

The government ACTS IN OUR NAME - yours and mine. The difference is in us just as it is in our lawmakers.

You support closed government when you support Democrats who side with closed government. I support open government Democrats - and ONLY open government Democrats.

I hope I succeed and I hope you fail.

[Tatiana]

49. Amen, blm. Amen.

You would think these people never studied the Iran-Contra scandal. Where every single last one of those a$$holes have come back to finish the job they started.

[OzarkDem]

23. We do

African American physicians and concerned others have long had access to all the information about this study.

[blm]

30. And you know that because we have a government that is completely open?

The only answer is that we DON'T KNOW, and won't until we have an advocate for open government in the Oval Office.

I don't even know that Obama will be that person though he has advocated for open government issues in the past - I just know that he offers FAR MORE open government to the citizenry than either of the other candidates at this point.

[OzarkDem]

34. Do I trust the govt? No, but

I do trust the AA physicians, researchers and activists who demanded and got access to this information. I also trust the results of surveys and interviews these people conducted with those who participated in the study who were still alive (some are still living today).

[blm]

37. You trust that THEY RECEIVED all the info or you trust what they determined BASED on

all the info they accessed, which was STILL controlled by......the government..

That is the actual issue at hand.

[OzarkDem]

41. Read my post

They have reviewed all the governments information and have also interviewed the people who both were patients and caregivers (nurses, etc.). They're AA health care professionals and I trust their judgement.

[krkaufman]

131. Is "who participated in the study" an accurate framing?

Did the subjects voluntarily provide informed consent to "participate" in the Tuskegee experiments, or were they unwitting lab rats?

[JoFerret]

51. It was a dreadful episode

...there may have been others that we do not know of. It is important to be vigilant and thoughtful. It is important to be responsible with the facts. It is important not to stir unnecessary and destructive paranoia.

[Window]

62. Bullshit.

[Jensen]

12. Amen!

[Catherina]

33. Are we in Church? Ok.... AMEN to blm! n/t

[katsy]

43. We don't know anything.

The government is secretive and corrupt.

Why should anyone give them the benefit of the doubt.



Nice post blm :thumbsup:

[Window]

60. No shit.

We don't know jack when it comes to what the government really does.

[QC]

78. What about Jackson Stephens?

Were they involved in the syphilis injections?

[blm]

96. Jackson Stephens staked WalMart and brought the terrorist bank BCCI into this country

he also was a longtime ally of GHWBush's and bankrolled Bill Clintons career in Arkansas and underwrote his primary campaign.

There is a lot more about Jackson Stephens' involvements that voters should know about since his cooperative efforts with GHWBush and the consequences of those operations have had a huge impact on all of our lives, especially since 9-11.

Of course, if you disagree you are welcome to explain why you do.

[okasha]

98. Can I have some documentation

that shows the governement did inject the Tuskeegee men with syphillis?

[blm]

99. I said I DON'T KNOW - and neither do you.

.

[okasha]

120. I didn't ask if you knew, nor did I say I did.

I asked for some facts to back up the assertion. None seem to be forthcoming.

[blm]

150. You can't prove that it didn't happen because you DON'T KNOW and I know enough

about Operations Northwoods and CIA drugrunning to know that my government IS capable of doing the unspeakable but not be forthcoming with all the documentation in order to hide HOW far they HAVE GONE and are willing to go.

Why is it difficult for you to admit that government doesn't always release all documents so we can never know 100% if there was more covered up or not?

[EFerrari]

2. Where is the over statement?

Exactly?

You can do better than this.

[David Zephyr]

4. The U.S. Government injected them with slavery, lynchings, rape, theft, LSD and syphilis.

.

[JoFerret]

10. .....sounds like you are really getting into that

(Spread the hope, not the hype.)

[EFerrari]

21. Slavery was hype?

Good one!

:applause:

[Catherina]

35. Yeah. Dontcha know. Black people never had it so good

Out of our "huts" and into the big house.

:sarcasm:

[JVS]

38. At least they had jobs then

:sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

40. I can't even fucking believe what I'm reading here. n/t

[JoFerret]

45. You chose to totally distort the argument (such as it was)

Enjoy your disbelief and outrage.

[EFerrari]

48. Wrong. The Tuskegee study is not a figment of my imagination.

But, nice try. Do you believe in gravity or that also up for grabs?

[JoFerret]

55. You are doing it again - deliberately distorting

Do try to stick to the topic. In fact I don't think there is a shred of disagreement on the basic fact of Tuskegee and slavery. Quit trying to invent a racist controversy where none exists.

Please don't misuse these dreadful episodes to pursue your own very narrow agenda. They are not about "you" and your opinions nor about mine. They are bigger than that. They actually have historical significance.

Have you wandered in from some white supremacy site to stir dissension?

[EFerrari]

81. "Quit trying to invent a racist controversy where none exists."

Gotcha. Let's just let your post sit there.

[JoFerret]

106. Is that your game? "gotcha"

To distort comments on a topic like this in order to play some kind of "gotcha' game is really unworthy.

I honestly don't know what your actual point is. Maybe you made an honest mistake and misread something.

Otherwise it is purely a matter of choosing to be obtuse for some purpose known only unto you.

Peace and goodwill to you

[EFerrari]

107. I believe you don't know what my point is.

And I hope you manage to figure it out for yourself.

I have a terminal degree in reading English and an unofficial one in reading posts like yours.

Before you wish me peace and goodwill, you might check and see if you have any to spare.

[JoFerret]

113. "You distort, I deride. " as faux noos puts it

Congratulations on all those higher degrees. I hope you find it worth your while arguing nonsense with me when you could be doing something productive.

(I still think you got hold of some wrong end of some stick and stuck the sharp end in your own eye. ie. chose to find racism where none exists. Whatever.)

Have a great life.

[JoFerret]

125. Do you know what my point was?

Please look at it again. Please consider that you may have totally misread it.

And please explain why it has caused you such conniptions.

[merh]

101. Doesn't the 40 year experiment that was the Tuskagee Experiment

help you understand why Wright could believe that blacks were infected with HIV?

I bet in 1960, after the grumblings and rumblings of years of those affected and bothered and killed by that experiment, folks didn't believe a word they had to say. Thought they were making shit up because they didn't like the white man and they were just being hateful.

Imagine their shock when 10 years later some angel of truth broke the code of silence and made public the secret experiment. And it took, what 25 years for the US government to formally apologize for the experiments. A 40 year deadly and sanctioned and yes, inhumane, experiment by our government on just black folks and 25 years to apologize and you think Wright is the one that has issues? Go study how awful it is to die from untreated syphilis. Go read of the government sanctioned slow death torture that was approved and done to our own citizens.

Am I saying that anyone was infected by anything? No. I am saying I understand why some may believe it is something our government would and could do.

The Gulf War I vets that have illnesses that the US military won't pay for or own up to. Agent Orange, the LSD experiments and Tuskegee experiments all make the suspicions understandable and real. Tuskegee was only about black men, only affected black families - you tell me, isn't that a racial issue, didn't the experiment itself make it a racial issue?

And I share the feelings of many who post here, you can't trust the truth from the government, even when they tell you they are telling the truth. JFKs assassination, Iraq invasion, OBL, there are tons of examples of the lies.

.

[EFerrari]

105. merh.

:hug:

[merh]

109. ignorance bugs the hell out of me

especially if it is displayed while the person is pretending to be so damned informed. :grr:

:hug:

[EFerrari]

110. Yikes.

:rofl:

[JoFerret]

114. It's a deliberate act I think

So probably best left to lie fallow.

[merh]

118. Your's is the ignorance

She knew I was talking about you.

Let me ask you this so I can gain some understanding.

So the government knew 400 men had syphilis and they didn't treat it, they just studied those poor black men.

Do you think the government knew that those 400 black men were going to have sex during the study with their wives and/or other lady friends?

How is syphilis transmitted?


And you skipped over this post.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5210839&mesg_id=5212392

[JoFerret]

124. Listen

How dare you pretend such innocence.

You know what you are doing.

At no point at any time do any of my posts indicate any scepticism about that dreadful, racist so-called 'experiment'. Not one. Never. No where.

How dare you indicate anything of the sort.
I give you the benefit of the doubt. You chose to buy another's conclusion. Fine. Whatever.

But please do look for yourself before drawing conclusions. These things MATTER. Racism matters. Truth matters. Fairness matters.

(Meanwhile - in the words of the inestimable Stephen Colbert; "I accept your apology".)

Edit:

(The word 'sweetheart removed as factually inaccurate and as representing unnecessary sarcasm re the poster whose comment is a wild and quite deliberate distortion. It was used ironically and is in no way to be considered a term of endearment. It caused offense so I removed it)

[merh]

126. Calling me sweetheart is just plain silly.

Thinking I owe you an apology is even sillier.

You have yet to comment on my post to you and you parade around this thread as if you are stating the facts correctly, when you are not.

And in stating your version of the facts you continue to fail to use any understanding whatsoever, you just judge and spew and post a whole lot of nothing.

If they knew that the men had syphilis and did not treat it (as they could in 1947) and let those men infect others then they did infect others. They knew the men would continue to have sex and that is how the disease was transmitted.

May I suggest you try a to use a little understanding and a lot less grand standing if you can.

[JoFerret]

127. Who is disputing the goddamn facts?

And who is using them to bludgeon and distort.

WTF are you even ON about at this point?
Please identify the place where I have said anything that is factually inaccurate.

You and I are ON THE SAME SIDE. Don't you get it?

And you are right. Calling you a "sweetheart" is very silly.
Going back to edit now.
But an apology is still called for but not required.

[merh]

128. The government may have as well had injected those

who had sexual contact with the participants in the study. They knew the disease was transmitted by sexual contact, they knew the men were infected with it and told them it was just a study on "bad blood", they denied them the penicillin that could cure the disease and they even tricked those negros into getting spinal taps to further their research, not to treat the disease as the participants were told. Yet, they never told the men what they had. So in effect, they did "inject" citizens with the disease.

Your comments on the subject are

.....sounds like you are really getting into that

(Spread the hope, not the hype.)

You chose to totally distort the argument (such as it was)

Enjoy your disbelief and outrage.

You are doing it again - deliberately distorting

Do try to stick to the topic. In fact I don't think there is a shred of disagreement on the basic fact of Tuskegee and slavery. Quit trying to invent a racist controversy where none exists.

Please don't misuse these dreadful episodes to pursue your own very narrow agenda. They are not about "you" and your opinions nor about mine. They are bigger than that. They actually have historical significance.

Have you wandered in from some white supremacy site to stir dissension?

Is that your game? "gotcha"

To distort comments on a topic like this in order to play some kind of "gotcha' game is really unworthy.

I honestly don't know what your actual point is. Maybe you made an honest mistake and misread something.

Otherwise it is purely a matter of choosing to be obtuse for some purpose known only unto you.

Peace and goodwill to you

"You distort, I deride. " as faux noos puts it

Congratulations on all those higher degrees. I hope you find it worth your while arguing nonsense with me when you could be doing something productive.

(I still think you got hold of some wrong end of some stick and stuck the sharp end in your own eye. ie. chose to find racism where none exists. Whatever.)

Have a great life.

So you tell me, what the hell is anyone to think after reading your posts but that you are defending the OP's distortion of the truth and attacking another DUer that does not agree with the OP or your position that this is not a racism issue, or rather, to you, that it is not a racism issue worthy of discussion?

Your snide and rude comments have what purpose exactly?

And will you answer my response to your post 55?

Just looking for some discussion and you just skip over that and go for the snark. It would appear you are the one that owes apologies to me and the other poster. Don't ya worry though, I won't hold my breath as blue is not my best color.

[JoFerret]

144. I accept your apology. Thanks

Anyone can make a mistake.

[merh]

146. There has been no apology

and you don't deserve one as you are the one that attacked without cause, distorted with purpose and tried to twist the discussion beyond recognition.

As I said, I never expected an apology from you, that would require honesty and humility.

[GreenPartyVoter]

129. Now THAT

is a darned good post! :hug:

[EFerrari]

134. merh kicks @ss

in spikes and to a samba beat. :)

[blm]

153. I wish I could recommend your reply.

.

[Catherina]

59. I can't either. The good news is they're still hiding

It used to be behind hoods. Now it's behind keyboards. They're still too cowardly to do it in broad daylight but when the hoods come off, they come off good.

Huts. Gratitude. God Bless America you ingrates we rescued from Africa. It's not his turn yet, White ladies to the front of the bus and don't you dare call us bitches. I've heard it all. If I thought most people shared the hateful views I've seen expressed by some HRC supporters here, I'd leave the country.

200 years of free labor, lynchings, ghettos, don't even know my ancestors names or where they were born, young brothers locked up in prisons and now we've got all this racist talk about how Hispanics won't vote for Negroes and the US government has been good to us.

God damn, I can't even fucking believe what I'm reading here either.

[David Zephyr]

65. I'm with you, Catherina

Proudly with you.

[Catherina]

75. Thank you David

I'm so angry right now, almost in tears. Your post is so kind and calming. We've moved on except to apply the injustices of the past to warn against the atrocities of the present. Why can't White America move on? Is it that hard to admit bad things happened and forgive ourselves? This arrogance is what's getting millions of people killed right now and exploits millions of others.

Time to admit we messed up, we're gonna fix it and move on!

I'm proudly with you. Thank you David Zephyr for the kindness of strangers. :hug:

[David Zephyr]

82. Right back to you.

:hug: :loveya:

[Window]

74. Shit like this pisses me the hell off.

I hate it when white people try to know so damned much about black people. You have no fricken idea. NONE!

[Catherina]

76. Edit. Sorry

I wasn't sure if you meant that for me but I just read your other posts :hi:


I'm nobody! Who are you?
Are you nobody, too?
Then there's a pair of us--don't tell!
They'd banish us, you know.

[Window]

91. LOL! Whatever it was, I didn't see it.

:hi: back at you.

[Catherina]

97. It was nothing lol

Just asking if you thought I was one of those people talking about something I didn't know anything about because last time I checked, I wasn't White ;)

:hi:

[Window]

103. Too funny.

:thumbsup:

[Window]

79. Thank you Catherina. I'm stunned at the ignorance in this thread.

[Catherina]

121. Thank you Window

:hug: I feel like I made some solid new friends here today.



Countee Cullen
1903-1946


"From the Dark Tower"


We shall not always plant while others reap
The golden increment of bursting fruit,
Not always countenance, abject and mute,
That lesser men should hold their brothers cheap;
Not everlastingly while others sleep
Shall we beguile their limbs with mellow flute,
Not always bend to some more subtle brute;
We were not made to eternally weep.

The night whose sable breast relieves the stark
White stars is no less lovely being dark,
And there are buds that cannot bloom at all
In light, but crumple, piteous, and fall;
So in the dark we hide the heart that bleeds,
And wait, and tend our agonizing seeds.

[EFerrari]

83. . . .

:hug:

Don't be afraid and don't let the anger hurt you. We're are together against this cr#p. And we always will be.

[David Zephyr]

88. And with our feet planted firmly on the ground, sfexpat2000

We are together and vigilant. Thanks for all of your comments in this thread.

[EFerrari]

90. We're very lucky, David!

There is a big old light in our life. Isn't that something?!

You, go, my friend.

:toast:

[Window]

94. Thank you sfexpat, you guys are the greatest... Catherina & David.

I feel better now. I usually don't allow myself to get so angry, especially on a damned message board, but I sure had a moment there.


Peace:thumbsup: to the decent people in this thread.

[EFerrari]

95. There are many, many decent, great people in this world.

It will be all right.

You are here -->> :hug:

[Window]

100. So true. Thank God for decent ones. The others, well God have mercy on them.

O8)

[David Zephyr]

102. And you are with us, Window.

Pushing back with our heart, minds and souls. Always!

[Catherina]

123. I feel better now too. This board is great and full of great people

I'm not going to let a few ruin the experience for me or the hope we're feeling. America at the crossroads and it's no sense letting anyone defer this generations' dreams that so many people, of all ages, races, religions and genders share.

Peace window :grouphug: and all the decent people in this thread and on this board


Life Is Fine

I went down to the river,
I set down on the bank.
I tried to think but couldn't,
So I jumped in and sank.

I came up once and hollered!
I came up twice and cried!
If that water hadn't a-been so cold
I might've sunk and died.

But it was Cold in that water! It was cold!

I took the elevator
Sixteen floors above the ground.
I thought about my baby
And thought I would jump down.

I stood there and I hollered!
I stood there and I cried!
If it hadn't a-been so high
I might've jumped and died.

But it was High up there! It was high!

So since I'm still here livin',
I guess I will live on.
I could've died for love--
But for livin' I was born

Though you may hear me holler,
And you may see me cry--
I'll be dogged, sweet baby,
If you gonna see me die.

Life is fine! Fine as wine! Life is fine!

Langston Hughes

[EFerrari]

143. You accidentally said "peace window".

We could all use a peace window.

lol

"What we need here is a good ceremony". -- Leslie Marmon Silko

[Catherina]

122. I am so not afraid

with people like you guys by my side. I have the same sense of hope I know many had when Brother Martin said we'd overcome and good people of all over America joined hands and said "yes we can"! :hug:



Dinner Guest: Me

I know I am
The Negro Problem
Being wined and dined,
Answering the usual questions
That come to white mind
Which seeks demurely
To Probe in polite way
The why and wherewithal
Of darkness U.S.A.--
Wondering how things got this way
In current democratic night,
Murmuring gently
Over fraises du bois,
"I'm so ashamed of being white."

The lobster is delicious,
The wine divine,
And center of attention
At the damask table, mine.
To be a Problem on
Park Avenue at eight
Is not so bad.
Solutions to the Problem,
Of course, wait.

Langston Hughes

[David Zephyr]

63. It's tragic.

And yes, sfexpat2000, we are reading this here. How sad is that?

[EFerrari]

85. Well, David, maybe this is just life.

I'm grateful you are here.

Thank you!

:hug:

[David Zephyr]

89. No, the thanks go to you.

:hug:

[JoFerret]

44. You use of it is is more than hype

Something else altogether and far worse (than hype).

[EFerrari]

87. Really? What kind of silence should we observe to satisfy you?

Sorry, sell your bridge somewhere else, I'm not buying.

[Tatiana]

50. More like spread the TRUTH, so that people don't resort to conspiracies. n/t

[Window]

64. Hype my black ass.

:banghead:

[K Gardner]

5. Do people still angry about the Holocaust "overstate" its evil? How does one overstate evil..

I wonder.

[MethuenProgressive]

6. Does Obama believe the government invented HIV to murder the black race?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Wright

In other sermons, he said "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color", referring to AIDS origins theories

[kwenu]

56. Why don't you ask him?

[MethuenProgressive]

73. I don't call in to FOX News when he's on.

Maybe you could ask him?

[kwenu]

119. As we say in Texas, "Then you need to HUSH!" because nobody else cares.

[JoFerret]

147. I understand why many would be susceptible to believing that

And - as the OP said - the truth is dreadful enough.

<<As a part of the Tuskegee Experiment, the government refused to treat African-American men who had already contracted syphilis in order to monitor the effects of the disease.>> True

Does not make tis true: AIDS was created by the govt.

It IS true they cheerfully ignored dealing with it. How long was it until Reagan even uttered the word? By that time thousands had died and the virus spread to innumerable others. it's another shameful episode in a failure of leadership and adequate public health. It's the truth that sets you free.

The OP had a good point. INJECTED - no.

Too many have INJECTED something into this thread that was already INFECTED.(with self-righteousness)

[whatchamacallit]

8. "We didn't kill them, we simply let them die slowly and painfully"

Thanks for the history lesson mate.

[peace13]

16. What you say!! n/t

[kwenu]

58. And spread the disease to others.

[DearAbby]

11. degrees of evil

no so bad evil
moderately bad evil
really bad evil
really really bad evil
or
Evil

which does this fall into? :eyes:

[OzarkDem]

13. What's really sad

is that the Rev. and others who preach the same gospel also tell their flocks not to trust doctors, to rely on home remedies and alternative medicines for cancer treatment, etc.

We see some of it preached in our area, poor women coming in to the hospitals with huge tumors in their breasts because their pastors told them that doctors were bad and they should take herbs and vitamins instead.

Really tragic when you have to choose between your church and your life.

[EFerrari]

15. Really? Do you have a link for Reverend Wright telling his congregation

not to trust medical science?

He holds six degrees so, I think you don't.

Nice smear, though.

[OzarkDem]

22. Read the OP

It contains an example of Rev. Wrights misinformation about syphillis study.

I can't vouch for what Rev. Wright tells people in his congregation, but I can tell you what pastors in AA churches in our area do. And their advice is based on the same flawed information about the Tuskeegee study.

[EFerrari]

25. You must be joking.

:puke:

[OzarkDem]

29. Not at all

I happen to know a lot of well respected African American physicians,reasearchers, nurses and health care advocates. They're very opposed to it and spend a lot of time going to these churches , giving talks and educating the pastors and congregations about evidence based medicine.

[Window]

71. If you know some people like that, fine. But my pastor has a church in the NY area and one in Ohio.

That is not a typical black church. Trust me on this. Sure there are crazies everywhere, but black churches as a whole DO NOT TEACH that crap.

[Radical Activist]

93. Well, all those black preachers must be the same.

Since one said it in your area then Rev. Wright MUST have said it too. That's basically what you're saying, right? Oh Jesus.

[Window]

70. It is simply untrue. Totally untrue.

[whatchamacallit]

17. No, what's REALLY sad is you Hill supporters planting your foul propaganda in inappropriate threads

You'd think you would have better sense than to plant your flags in threads like this.

[VolcanoJen]

18. Pastor Wright was a Marine Corpsman and Cardio-Pulmonary technician at the US Naval Hospital...

... in Bethesda. He was famously photographed attending to the bedside of President Lyndon B. Johnson.

But I'm sure you're the one who got it right, that Pastor Wright doesn't believe in medical science. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

19. How much worse can this sh$t get?

:shrug:

[blm]

26. Trust me, I've had exchanges with some here who'd defend fascism as pragmatism

just to maintain their faith in the Clintons.

It really has become creepy and as UN-American as Bush's devotees, imo.

[EFerrari]

28. So much more than creepy.

We have people here fucking DEFENDING the Tuskegee study.

I have no words for that.

Thank you, blm, for standing right up. :hug:

[OzarkDem]

31. Where?

[OzarkDem]

27. Do the research

Check out what's going on at AA churches in your area. Some are responsible, some are not. I was gobsmacked when I found out what was going on. Its a big problem in health care and racial disparities in care. My AA friends are the ones who tell me about it.

[EFerrari]

32. You are right! African American churches are the problem.

[OzarkDem]

36. Some of them have problems in this area

and while that may seem silly or trivial to you, its sad and tragic. As someone who has spent time trying to talk people into ignoring their pastor's advice and getting medical care, its very sad.

[EFerrari]

39. I'm sure there are black people having problems in your area.

And as a brown person, I'm going to save myself from the same.

[OzarkDem]

42. Good for you

Evidence based medicine is very important for guiding people in their health care choices. You have to be an informed patient who looks out for their own interests and asks questions.

[JoFerret]

156. Evidence based

is not the strong suit of some of the posters on this thread.

[Catherina]

68. Yeah. Let's burn some more of those negro churches.

With racist views like that, I'm not surprised.

AA friends like the token Blacks from Project21 you HRC supporters are fond of quoting but you keep tripping up.

And goddamn it no, you stay the hell away from our churches. Next thing we know some of you are putting sheets over your heads and lighting matches. I can't believe you had the fucking nerve after so many of our churches have been burned down by racists.

I'm stunned.

[JoFerret]

115. Lol

You poor thing. All this SUFFERING you are having to endure.

Fact is - bad stuff actually DID happen. Truth. Proven. Horrendous. Unspeakable.
It was plenty bad enough. No need to imagine or invent it. Or even exaggerate it.

Fact also is: it's not happening to us (commentators on this DU thread) right now and we diminish the awful reality by pretending faux association.

[kwenu]

61. Only White veterans like John McCain have the right to criticize their government.

Black vets---not so much. They're just radicals. :sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

86. They're angry. They don't like little girls getting blown up and stuff.

Why do they hate America? :sarcasm:

[Window]

67. That is absolute bullshit.

In my black church, and Rev. Wright's, we are taught to trust the doctors because God gave them the wisdom to know what to do. They teach that prayer and God's will.

There are some groups that don't believe in doctors or blood transfusions, etc., but they aren't black churches.

[Catherina]

69. Jehovah's Witnesses. Black churches

what's the difference when you're just trying to demonize.

[Window]

77. Exactly.

I was so angry, I couldn't remember what they were called...Jehovah's Witnesses. Thanks.

I don't think they have churches, more like a hall or something. No singing, praising the Lord and such. I went to a JW meeting once as a teenager, and it was quite strange.

[surfermaw]

20. They were running a test

What happened the best I can remember is they took a study group and gave some meds and some got the sugar pill...Which to me is another terrible thing to do letting half of the men die

[SunsetDreams]

24. How do you know?

At any rate, they were shameful in their treatment of it.

http://minority-health.pitt.edu/archive/00000221/01/Tuskegee-_From_Science_to_Conspiracy_to_Metaphor.txt

On May 16, 1997, in the East Room of the White House, President Bill Clinton
issued a formal apology for the Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the
Negro Male. Directing his words to the survivors, several of whom were over 90
years old, the President said, "...what was done cannot be undone, but we can
end the silence. What the United States government did was shameful, and I am
sorry." The President placed the burden of responsibility for the abuse on the
medical research establishment when he stated, "the people who ran the study at
Tuskegee diminished the stature of man by abandoning the most basic ethical
precepts.

[SunsetDreams]

46. more

http://www.boydgraves.com/


The Smoking Gun of Aides: A 1971 Flowchart

http://www.boydgraves.com/flowchart/

Aides Timeline http://www.boydgraves.com/timeline/


-----------------
Human Experimentation and Informed Consent (last updated August 31, 2002) (back to top)

Informed consent has been the guiding principle behind ethical medical research involving human subjects for several decades, and in some ways even predates the Nuremberg Code that arose from the 1947 trial of Nazi German doctors. However, while the principle is now firmly rooted in federally-funded and federally-conducted research, it spread slowly and unevenly during the second half of the 20th century among various branches of the United States government and medical community, and it has not always been followed fully.

In the 1940s and 1950s, in particular, branches of the United States government generally did not adhere to the Nuremberg Code's principles as they conducted a wide range of experiments to test radiation's effect on humans and to test the effectiveness of LSD as a mind-controlling substance. These efforts affected a wide range of citizens, including hospital patients, children considered retarded, and prisoners, and some did not come to light for years.

Probably the most infamous example of medical experimentation in the United States was the syphilis study conducted in Tuskegee, Alabama. In the study, about 400 black men with syphilis went untreated for four decades so that the United States Public Health Service could see how syphilis progressed in blacks. The study began in 1932, when there was no widely accepted treatment for syphilis and when medical ethics were not of widespread concern, but continued without change for four decades, despite developments in the 1950s that saw both the widespread use of penicillin to treat syphilis and general acceptance of the Nuremberg code. The study was finally brought to light in 1972 and then terminated. The participants, who did not know they had syphilis and had previously thought themselves lucky to be in the study, received settlements in 1975 of about $37,500 each. Additionally, President Bill Clinton apologized in 1997 for the experiment.

http://www.footnotetv.com/fnctruthindex.html

[Drachasor]

47. By not trying to stop the problem, the effectively caused it to spread and infect others

So there is a truth there.

[SunsetDreams]

52. you get it...

thank you

[Tatiana]

53. Government lies.

[kwenu]

54. Yeah. Silly Black people. Of course, the govt. who did this must be telling the truth.

The government who committed such an atrocity obviously isn't capable of lying and they're just Black people, so who can take them seriously. :sarcasm:

We can't vote for a Black man as president because he might do the same thing to white people that white people did to black people. :sarcasm:

Oh yeah, he and his pastor are obviously the racists because white people stopped being racist after slavery and that was a long long time ago. It's all Black peoples own fault not ours. :sarcasm:


:rant:

[uponit7771]

66. TOUCHE` I wish I could K&R this response !

[aein]

57. A distinction without a difference. N/T

[sudopod]

72. Oh, well then, if that's all... *facepalm* nt

[MattBaggins]

80. Hey OP. Ethical question for you.

They allowed men infected with Syphilis to unknowingly infect others. The government therefore ???

If this post is to make it seem insane to believe that they would actually infect people with a disease; and the AA community is insane for believing such an idea, bear in mind that Tuskegee broke only a few years after the Willowbrook experiments. People seem to forget that one, since the mentally retarded children used had no real way to speak for themselves.

[Marie26]

84. Is this really something

to get self-righteous about?

[Radical Activist]

92. Oh gosh. Well that makes it much better.

:eyes:

[Occam Bandage]

104. According to the US government, the US government only committed a minor atrocity. Damn that Wright.

[AZBlue]

108. Were you there?

[eallen]

111. The moral is clear: Don't get your science from a preacher.

:hippie:

[JoFerret]

145. Nor mistake your F's for G's

Infect/ inject.
That's the minor error at the heart of half of this.

But - it allowed a lot of people to feel better about themselves.

[eleny]

112. And for that you can walk the plank to my Ignore list

Over the edge for you ----> http://www.mediacollege.com/downloads/sound-effects/water/splash-02.wav

[still_one]

116. I will tell you what the U.S. government DID do. They exposed GIs in the Nevada

dessert INTENTIONALY to radiactive fallout to see what the effect would be

They gave GIs LSD without informed consent, to see what the effects would be

They said that we were attacked by North Viet Nam, which started our folly in Viet Nam

They covertly overthrew the government of Chile

They said Saddam Hussein was linked to 9/11 and had WMDs, which started our folly in Viet Nam

I could go on, but we have had much better days

[malletgirl02]

117. Iran 1954

Don't forget also that the CIA had a role in overthrowing the Iranian government in 1954.

[still_one]

158. You're right /nt

[krkaufman]

130. Is it accurate to say "refused to treat" them?

Wasn't it actually the case that they were told they were being treated, but, in fact, actually were NOT?

"Refused to treat" implies the subjects were informed that they were not being treated for the disease.

[madrchsod]

132. yup

"For forty years between 1932 and 1972, the U.S. Public Health Service (PHS) conducted an experiment on 399 black men in the late stages of syphilis. These men, for the most part illiterate sharecroppers from one of the poorest counties in Alabama, were never told what disease they were suffering from or of its seriousness. Informed that they were being treated for “bad blood,”1 their doctors had no intention of curing them of syphilis at all. The data for the experiment was to be collected from autopsies of the men, and they were thus deliberately left to degenerate under the ravages of tertiary syphilis—which can include tumors, heart disease, paralysis, blindness, insanity, and death. “As I see it,” one of the doctors involved explained, “we have no further interest in these patients until they die.”


http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762136.html
The Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment — Infoplease.com

just think of this- 1972......

[merh]

133. They were told they had "bad blood" not syphilis

their wives and loves were never told of the danger. Imagine that, some died, go figure.

Did you know that they were told they were going to get a free treatment for their bad blood when the researchers wanted to do spinal taps. Yep, they thought it was going to help them, not that the ghouls wanted to see how the disease was affecting them.

[EFerrari]

135. Bet me that right now, the Pentagon is tracking PTSD cases

in the same loving way. And after many suicides and many cases of spousal homicide, it will come to light.

People don't understand that this sickness in our government is never contained to those people over there. Abu Graib migrates to Chicago just as surely as the CIA ops against Castro took out JFK, MLK and RFK. Anyone that believes that Tuskegee is just history that happened to someone else is fooling themself.

[merh]

136. They may well be tracking them

the illnesses that cause me the greatest concern and the US is responsible for and knows about and caused are those related to the depleted uranium.

Did you know that the government knew in January of 06 that our fema trailers were contaminated?

They know shit and they don't care.

[EFerrari]

137. I don't know when I found out about the trailers

but when I did my blood ran cold. When did you find out?

The only reason they care is to protect themselves from liability.

[krkaufman]

141. yeah, I knew.

(I was trying to be gentle with the poster and their phrasing; another poster in this thread referred to the victims as "participants" in the research)

[MadMaddie]

139. Here you go folks....please read and inform yourselves

<snip>
For forty years between 1932 and 1972, the U.S. Public Health Service (PHS) conducted an experiment on 399 black men in the late stages of syphilis. These men, for the most part illiterate sharecroppers from one of the poorest counties in Alabama, were never told what disease they were suffering from or of its seriousness. Informed that they were being treated for “bad blood,” their doctors had no intention of curing them of syphilis at all.
<snip>

http://www.tuskegee.edu/Global/Story.asp?s=1207586

This is why many blacks distrust the medical field. And this is why many blacks die of treatable diseases like breast cancer and prostate cancer.

[EFerrari]

140. Great post. And, it's not only black folk. It's also women,

Latinos, any group that has been "less than" in this culture.

My whole Latino extended family holds the medical profession in deep suspicion. And they have real horror stories to back up their fears, too.

[MadMaddie]

157. You are absolutely correct. It touches many communities...the

real tradgedy is so many Americans don't understand this history and because of that it is doomed to repeat itself.

[Hoof Hearted]

142. It's hard to discuss history with hyperbolic race warriors who divide in the name of unity.

[Mezzo]

148. wow. just wow. twenty years he spent under this guy?

There's little chance of winning the general.

[EFerrari]

154. You know nothing about "this guy" and you obviously haven't read this thread.

Pathetic.

[Laughing Mirror]

149. Look, the U.S. Surgeon General signed off on this Mengele-type project, and people died

By the time the experiment was exposed and closed, 28 men had died directly of syphilis, another 100 had died of complications of the disease; 40 wives had been infected, and 19 children had been born with genital syphilis. The last “victim” of the Tuskegee Experiment has died, “and we must never forget them,” said medical historian Dr. Vanessa Northington Gamble.

A $1.8 billion lawsuit was filed on behalf of the men, and a $10 million out-of-court settlement was reached. They and their families were given free health care for life.

http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/comments.php?id=2653_0_9_0_C

Those syphillis victims won the law suit and got free health care. Sounds like an admission of guilt on the part of the goverment to me.

Furthermore the Surgeon General kept rubber stamping it for 40 years. And even sent the "subjects" (they were not called patients) certificates for their participation. Thank about that. Who knows how long it would have continued if the Washington Star had not blown the whistle on this unthinkable "experiment" in 1972?

[EFerrari]

155. I didn't all of that. Thanks, downstairsparts. n/t

[barb162]

151. I don't recall Wright talking about syphilis, do you?

[Misanthrope2]

152. True. But some believers want emotion, not facts. N/T