Republicans for Obama ?

[kentuck]

In a couple or three months, this will be the topic we will be discussing. It's just an odd Republican here and there at the present time, such as Susan Eisenhower or Chafee of Rhode Island. But as the election draws nearer, you will see a good percentage of Republicans that will not accept John McCain and 4 more years of George W Bush. Their conscience will not permit them to stagger further into the abyss.

Expect to see polls in the coming months showing from 10% to 20% of Republicans planning on voting for Barack Obama. They are not racists and they do not wish to be associated with a Party that is perceived as racist. They want to be included in the positive story of American progress.

It is the natural order of politics. It is not unpredictable. We only need to observe what is going on around us. We will have a President that will unite this country.

[DJ13]

1. Theres even a website thats existed since last year

http://www.republicansforobama.org/?q=homepage

[Muttocracy]

2. I'm pretty sure Chafee is an Independent now - dropped the GOP nt

[otohara]

53. Not Exactly

in the interview the other day on Hardball, he said he was still very much a conservative except when it comes to war issues. Here's some of what he said on Hardball.


Let me go to Senator Chafee.

Are you taking heat from your Republican supporters for crossing the aisle, so to speak, all the way to Democrat, not just to independent, now?

CHAFEE: I argue back at them that I’m still a conservative and I think some of the issues that I care about, whether it’s personal liberties, as outlined in the Constitution, particularly in the Bill of Rights, that’s a conservative issue. Balanced budgets, for me that’s a conservative issue. And the environment, I think it makes sense from a conservative point of view to take care of our water and our air. And of course foreign entanglements; how did we get in this expensive foreign entanglement? That’s a conservative issue.

So I argue back with my Republicans, I’m still a true conservative.

Now it’s crossing, intersecting with a liberal candidate, Barack Obama.

MATTHEWS: If you’re a true conservative, I’m a true conservative, because I agree with you about the war. I wonder how we did get involved in this mess. What do you make of Dick Cheney, the vice president, the other day asked by Martha Raddatz about the fact the American people overwhelmingly think the war was a mistake and his answer was, so?

Snip

CHAFEE: I think the key, and Susan alluded to it earlier, is the young people and what Senator has done with the young people, just energized them. Right now I’m working at Brown University and the whole campus is to energized about the Obama candidacy. And we see that across the country.

It would be such a shame to kick the young vote in the shin, so to speak. They’re very energized. They care about politics, which is something very unique, as we know the past decade or so, the young people being so involved. I think that’s a very important dynamic. I don’t know where they’ll go if Senator Clinton gets the nomination.

[Muttocracy]

54. Providence Journal said he quit the party:

http://www.projo.com/news/content/CHAFEE_GOP_09-16-07_DP751KF.31dd3fe.html

PROVIDENCE — Lincoln D. Chafee, who lost his Senate seat in the wave of anti-Republican sentiment in last November’s election, said yesterday that he has left the party.

Chafee said he disaffiliated with the party he had helped lead, and his father had led before him, because the national Republican Party has gone too far away from his stance on too many critical issues, from war to economics to the environment.

“It’s not my party any more,” he said.

(continues)

Not saying he's a Dem - he's an independent.

[mikelewis]

3. If you haven't noticed... Republicans and Conscience are usually connected by...

...don't have a...

...are an affront to people of good...

...rape pages after they've drugged them Un-...

I don't hold out much hope they'll have a change of heart... at least publicly.

[Voice for Peace]

13. Sorry, I have to disagree. I know lots of Democrats who don't seem to have a

conscience, and lots of Republicans who do, and who like Obama and will vote for him. These black and white generalizations are simplistic and not based in reality.

[mikelewis]

19. Please don't speak to me of reality...

I am conversing with you in a place that technically only exists in our minds... about issues and people neither you nor I truly understand or relate too... and regarding a political reality we have very little impact on... In my world... Republicans are ignorant and evil and I like it that way... you can pretend they have a good heart but wrong head if you want; but history and reality have proven otherwise. They may say they would vote for Obama but the general election hasn't even begun... wait until they find out Obama doesn't hate gays and isn't against a woman choosing an abortion... goodness gracious... you will see how fast these "Good" Republicans will turn on you. Republicans hate us and I do my part to hate them back...

[Voice for Peace]

22. ok.. I'm not sure you want to have this discussion, or if anything I say might change your mind, but

It was a shock to me many years ago to find out that it's not all black and white, ie Republicans evil, Democrats good -- any more than Christians good, Muslims evil.

The Republicans I know are not anti-gay or anti-abortion. They don't like Bush or neoconservatives. They don't like big government and wasteful spending of tax money, basically. They are conservative in that sense; but not in the way 'conservatism' was hijacked by RW, anti-human rights, anti-gay, anti-choice, so-called family values, etc.

The ones I know are basically just people, like me, albeit with some different perspectives on the role of government. These are people who hate what has become of the Republican party and who will not vote for John McCain. They don't hate me and they don't hate you and they don't hate Democrats. They think we should be taking care of our business here, not meddling in other countries, especially the Middle East.

And in my view, at the heart of Obama's message (I don't know if you're an Obama supporter or not) is that we need to quit the divisive polarizing thinking that has poisoned this country, and make an effort to find our commonality. If that doesn't happen, things are just going to get worse.

I don't think hate is ever a good choice, in any form. It's not productive! It's not!

[mikelewis]

25. I agree partisan views are not helpful when holding a national dialogue but...

...neither is ignoring the facts. 54 million Republicans voted for Bush in 2004... yes, the election was stolen but that was mainly through voter suppression efforts and outright fraud. That does not excuse the 54 million republicans who still voted for this monster... and it does not reassure me that they will ever vote for us... Fuck them and fuck McCain... I'm not playing nice anymore... playing nice gets you accused of supporting terrorist and having "God Damn America" tattooed on your identity card. Should I forgive Republicans... maybe I should... but I will never trust those evil mother fuckers as far as I can throw them... They are the enemy of everything that is good and decent that this country stands for... they are greedy... and deceptive and hateful and vile and I would sooner wipe my ass with my hand than touch one of those ugly pieces of shit. Apologize for them if you will... that is your call and if you choose to hang out with them and think they actually give a shit about what you think is important, you are seriously high. Are there some good one... sure but you'd never fucking know it by their actions. They will betray you and smile in your face while their politicians stab you in the back... And you are wrong about hate... hate is productive... it gets Repuklicans off the couch every day with the sole intent of ruining good people's lives... Fuck them and the devil they call a God.

[RichardRay]

28. I live in a place where that shit doesn't cut it.

And it's not a state of mind. I live in a place where people get stuck at the side of the road in a blinding blizzard with the temperature at -20F. It's not unusual, it happens lots. Or I have car trouble a hundred miles from the nearest habitation, and there are lots of such places. The guy who stops to help me migt be a Republican or a Democrat, or straight or gay, or Hispanic or anglo, and I can be pretty certain he's not Buddhist. But he stops because that's what he knows is the right thing to do, just like I stop to help folks who don't look like me, either.

People with your perspective need to start living in places where there aren't enough people just like you to be able to form little enclaves where your outlook grows on it's own feedback. Stop living in your own navel, there's a world out here, and this is where problems exist and have to be solved.

[mikelewis]

29. I live in America... Fantasyland sounds nice but it ain't reality town...

See, here is your problem... you are blind... you have lost your ability to see beyond the here and now and see the grander picture... These people might be pretending to be polite... Republicans are always polite... even when they're molesting young pages or dropping down 20 billion of your dollars to kill some non-person, they are polite. They are polite when they make laws that take away your rights... defund your children's schools... cut police from urban streets... make back door deals with lobbyists to rake over the American people (cheat them out of retirements and fuck them out of health care)... Indeed, I agree, they are polite...

And the sad thing is... they are polite so Democrats look at these people and say... hey, you know what? Look, they're so civil... they're not vicious and scary... why not go along to get along? Why not try and reason with someone who smiles while he robs your elderly parents. You are blind and ignorant if you believe these people will ever do anything to help you that does not benefit them in someway... and I can guarantee you... they may stop to help you if your a Democrat... they may stop to help you if you a Liberal... but I promise you... if your skin was a different color they would leave you to rot in the street and possibly spit on you as they passed. You live in fantasyland... open your fucking eyes... NEVER ACCEPT EVIL ...especially when its smiling at you.

Oh... and on edit... Obama may be appealing to them now... now that the entire country is about to fucking completely fall apart... now that Bush has so completely ruined us... they're now looking for content... but where the fuck were these people years ago? They were chugging down beer while hurraying Bush as he evicerated the Constitution... killed thousands of Americans and who really gives a fuck about how many Iraqi's, Afghanis,,,, who-gives-a-fuckistanians? They are real fucking peaches and cream those Republicans of yours... Fool... Fool... Fool.

They have been attacking Obama about his race for the past year... they have been subtly and not so subtly smearing him all because his skin looks different. In private, you know what they call him... I, being white, get to hear what people really think until I tell them that I find their speech offensive and ignorant and politely... ever so politely so as not to offend... tell them that "Mr. Obama is an amazing individual in whom I have come to respect a great deal". I say that politely but in my mind... I think they are pieces of shit... not even worth wasting a word on... filthy and hateful and vile... I despise them... yet I smile and am so polite...

FUCK REPUBLICANS!!!

[RichardRay]

30. Exactly what drugs are you taking?

I ask so that I can be certain to avoid them in the future.

Unless, of course, you are subscribing to the purest essence of a class analysis. In that case, I applaud your correctness, if not your intellect.

[mikelewis]

32. What a marvelous rebuttal... did your child think that up for you or did you come up with that....

...all on your own. You're the one coming on a Democratic website selling... "OH Let's be nice to Republicans... They ain't so bad!!! They's just misunderstood... and anyone who doesn't understand them like you do must be stupid." Sell out somewhere else... you blind fool...

[RichardRay]

33. As I have no living children, no none of them did.

And I ask again, are you coming from a pure class analysis? In which case your rant makes sense and I just disagree with you. If you don't even know what that means then there's a deeper issue than that. Do you? Have you been in politics long enough to know the difference between an opinion and an analysis?

[mikelewis]

34. You did not ask a question... you posited a possibility and stated you'd disagree...

...with it if I had offered that as a class opinion... I guess the alternative to my "rant" addressing the Republican "class" (if you will) would be that I was just an ignorant loon or some other such insinuation. And no... you're right... I have no idea what an opinion or an analysis is so you have won... I cede the field and make way to bow down to your desire to get me to forgive and forget what Republicans have done to this nation. Republicans are groovy polite people who are just really misunderstood and I bet if we're nice to them they'll give us health care and give us good paying jobs and give us a cleaner environment and maybe then we can all hold hands and skip down the roads paved with gold... Boy O Boy have I been wrong about these wonderfully helpful people... you've just opened my little eyes right up... Yes... These Republicans of yours, they are amazing individuals in whom I have come to respect a great deal... yes they are... and thank you so much for opening my eyes... thanks boss... I do appreciate it... And I like you a lot too... we should talk alot more sometime... well... gotta go make up with these Republicans around here now... probably gonna be too busy to chat but look you up soon... bye bye now...

[RichardRay]

35. Ain't noplace I said 'forgive and foget', etc., etc.

But, if that's what I need to do to make progress than I'll be glad to do so, because I can, and because I'll know why I'm doing it.

An opinion is what you feel as a result of what's happened to you. An analysis is the way you arrange the things that happened such that they make sense and you can do something about them. When I react/behave out of my opinions I enable my oppressor, I give my oppressor control over me. When I act based on an analysis I have a plan and know why I'm doing what I'm about. Only in the second case am I able to make progress, although I may feel good about the first case.

So, if I have an opinion about Republicans based on my dislike for what they, as a group, have done then I'm letting them be the bosses. If I understand them and how they think and feel and am able to choose a tactic and strategy best suited to enlist, avoid or defeat them, then I am in control.

So, if you have a stark class analysis that puts Republicans on the other side of an intractable divide, then I disagree with you on grounds for which arguments can be made on either side. If you just flat don't LIKE them because they're Republicans, for god's sake, then you may feel really good, but contribution to goals isn't acheived. (see lumpenproletariat)

[mikelewis]

37. Opinions can also be derived from other sources than feelings...

Indeed, opinions that are based on analysis and debate are generally better than opinions garnered from feelings. I may feel that the Earth is flat and can sometimes find economists who agree with me but the reality is the world is fractal in dimension and mostly spherical if viewed from a distance. Of course that's just my opinion... gleaned from science and walking around for a bit...

Analysis also does not have to merely hold itself to things that have happened but can use reasonable assertions to postulate an alternative hypothesis... indeed, isn't quantum string theory one such analysis... an abstract idea garnered from years of research and shaken loose on a train to Denmark? Analysis that is not used to formulate such an idea is actually not useful as a tool since to analyze something requires an answer to be sought... a question to be posed. So the question posed is... Are there good Republicans? Yes there are... just as there are good parts of a serial killer. His spleen is probably not evil though how can one be sure... honestly, have you ever heard of an evil spleen? But the soul of the Republican party is what damns the whole of the Republican party... if a serial killer is strapped into a chair and 1.21 Gigawatt's are sent coursing through his evil parts... aren't the good parts in peril as well? It's probably better to have the spleen removed and put into a Democrat but unfortunately the Republicans in power don't believe in that sort of Progressive ideal... unless they get a cut of the profits and the Democrat agrees to never vote again, of course. If your Republican's were good... they would be Democrats... since they are not... they are shit stains on the white panties of America... at least, in my opinion.

Also... I appreciate your attempt to teach me the precepts of non-violent resistance... speaking in Ghandian terms of Oppressor and Oppressed... almost like you have any clue of what that means, save in some esoteric way; through parable perhaps. However, these oppressors as you quixotically describe them are actively pursuing a policy that endangers everyone of us... that policy is, "Follow other Republicans" and that's frankly, a bad policy to follow. Until they stop following other Republicans and turn into what I like to call Democrats... I will continue to not associate myself with them nor treat them any differently as I would want to be treated if I were a delusional Republican. I would want someone to tell me how fucking aweful I am for supporting FUCKING MONSTERS FOR EIGHT FUCKING YEARS!!!!! Sorry... we were having such a reasonable debate and damn sure if one of those pesky emotional opinions didn't just pop right out... Maybe I have Tourettes ... "Fucking Cocksuckers!!!! Pieces of shit!!!!" Nope... not Tourettes... I just fucking hate them.

But it is important to note... one aspect of Non-violent Resistance you fail to understand is the Resistance part. Non-violent Acquiescence and Assimilation doesn't really carry the same sort of sting. Maybe that's why Mohandis never became a British General or Colonial Governor... he probably didn't understand non-violence as you teach... I doubt he'd even recognize the approach.

[RichardRay]

39. Did I say anything about 'non-violence'? or scientific inquiry?

If you jump out of the realm of discourse in which we started, then the opinion vs. analysis dichotomy does indeed lose its power; I was using it strictly as a way of parsing political action. If you take it out of that framework the simple format I proposed certainly loses some of its punch.

Although my spiritual practice presses me in the direction of not harming others I'm afraid that's a goal, not something I've acheived. I do try to remember, at least, that work gets done through the application of force and that unconstrained violence is a waste of perfectly good force.

As to credentials: Yes, I have them. My experience is adequate to recognize oppression, both when I am subject to it and when I find myself oppressing others. I know, intimately and viscerally and from personal experience, exactly what it looks and feels and smells and tastes and sounds like. Maybe you do, too. Snarling at the Bush administration and members of the Republican Party doesn't make it seem that way. The likelihood of someone merely changing affiliation from the Republican Party to the Democratic Party being an adequate transformation to redeem an opressor is very small, even if the conversion is true and deeply felt. Long time members of the Democratic Party oppress some classes with every bit the same virulence as do members of the Republican Party.

I don't suggest 'Follow Republicans' as a policy, I don't think you'll find me saying that and I know I don't do that. I do suggest, however, that identifying everyone who carries the label 'Republican' as a class enemy is not a useful way to pursue the changes I want to see.

Do you want to feel good? Or, do you want to win?

[mikelewis]

40. What a Bushian Choice you've offered...

Like the Patriot Act or the Help America Vote Act, you offer capitulation and degradation wrapped up in words dripping with honey... "Do you want to feel good? Or, do you want to win?" Wow... of course I want to win... off with those civil liberties... gone are black peoples rights to a free and fair election... oh gee don't winning feel good... see, I got the best of both worlds...

Republicanism is not a class... it is an ideology that spans classes. You are viewing it wrong... Republicanism is a way of viewing governments role in our daily lives... the powers government should have, the rights and abuses governments can grant or inflict... the very nature of how they see this country is wrapped up in that ideology. Republicanism believes in a strong central government that is instituted among Men (mostly men... white men) to rule the nation as a whole. It's very essence relies on the ability to create a strong "class" of ruling elite though that elite need not be wealthy. However like ancient Rome, wealth becomes a way in which these rulers become ensnared and bound to the Republic. I quaintly refer to these snares as golden handcuffs and this also accounts why many Democrats aid and abet these ideologues. Some are undoubtedly caught up in wealth and other snares like sex and nepotism and this aids the Republican method of rule because it guarantees loyalty where dedication and conscience fail. While a Republican manner of government is instituted by the electorate, that need not be representative of the entire country as a whole. Rome was a Republic and you'd be hard pressed to find a historian who felt that Democracy and Democratic ideals is what guided that Republic. Indeed, the stronger Republicanism grew, the quicker the demise of any reference to Democratic ideals in the strangling hands of Caesar.

Now, let's look at today... how are our Republicans viewed? Well off? Indeed. Elite? Most certainly. Corrupt? Undoubtedly. Why? Because the nature of the Republican view is to offer this view... it must if it is to get members of those that are ruled to want to find a way to gain access to the benefits the corruption, sex and money offer. At it's most basic level, it appeals to the more baser instincts of man to rule... primitive might vs. right ideology is what drives Republicanism... Now couple that with a corporate control structure, one that supports and sustains government in a symbiotic relationship as we are in today and soon we have what is called Fascism... Is Fascism inherently evil? I guess not... but it is prone to evil since it allows for abuses and oppression because its intent is to serve the corporations that sustain it... If the old axiom is true... that the "Love of money is the root of all evil" then indeed Fascism (or American Republicanism) is evil since government is sustained by those who seek to enrich themselves through government and that government seeks to empower itself through that wealth.

To adopt this view is to adopt a view that is at its core anti-Democratic. Republicanism believes at its core that the State is right by its very nature... it believes the State defines what is righteous and the State controls punishment for breaking the moral law. Democratic ideals are just the opposite... Democrats, like myself, believe in the axiom, "Vox populi, vox dei" which means that the voice of the people is the moral law that should guide government. We believe in empowering people through education and fair market practices that open up government and free the people from a despotic system that every Republic has fallen prey to... The goal of Republicanism is to destroy that very foundation and thus it is evil and those who ignorantly support and follow those... though they may not be evil themselves... are indeed serving Lucifer himself when they plant their banner in the Republican camp. Republicanism is the enemy of all free people everywhere and the last 8 years have shown this argument as truth.

Are Republicans bad? Yes. Can they be saved? In America, there is hope... there is opportunity for change wrapped up in our Constitution... the very same Constitution written by men who fully understood this nature of humanity and bound that eternal struggle within the document itself... the path to destroying Republicanism lies in anchoring ourselves to the very ideals on which our most unique Republic is founded upon. A Democratic Republic is an oxymoron... an impossible paradox because it is like two strong willed horses pulling a chariot into battle... each pulling in a different direction... each horse striving toward a perpetual unreachable goal because they are both bound to the will of the driver... the American people themselves. Republicans despise this sort of system and have been working to undermine our system to their profit since before our Republic was even founded... indeed, an argument could be made that it was that same Republican spirit that nailed an insignificant Jewish rabbi to a cross because he believed in that same Democratic ideal in which I speak... That the people are all equal under the law... that the people are all of equal value and no system should ever be allowed to subjugate that uniquely divine law. For by espousing those ideals, he had to die lest the people believe and Rome be threatened... it was better that he die than the system be upset.

Those good Republicans of yours may pretend to be appalled that goodness is crucified... but it is their support that crucifies goodness everyday... it is their mindless hate-driven support that gave us Bush and everything that entails... every ill we suffer is because Republicans are selfish, hateful, despicable vermin who flock with other selfish, hateful and despicable vermin... and you want me to be happy that this one time... possibly... maybe they might do the right thing and vote for a Democrat? HA HA HA There is no guarantee they will attempt to change... there is no guarantee they even want to change other than the fact the the branding of Republicanism has taken such a sour turn.... because in no small part, they have gotten exactly what they wanted; a decapitated union bowed under the yoke of fascists. Embrace them as brothers if you will, I will not... they have an opportunity to change... as we all do... as I did... but I will forgive them when they are truly circumcised from their hateful ideology and when they have truly adopted the democratic ideals that offer the only hope to human kind.

[RichardRay]

41. The choice I offer is orthoganal to the one you rebutt

I would say that the Bushian choices of the Patriot Act or the war in Iraq are the choices of those who would rather feel good than win. That's why the character Jack Baur in the TV show 24 is so popular, he provides a simple solution to intractable problems that still have to be solved. That's a case of feeling good rather than winning in the sense I meant to convey.

In politics it can be the same thing. I want to rage at the 'other side' because I so deeply abhor the actions committed in the name of its ideology. It's too easy to forget that the feral joy I feel in that rage is wasted energy (or force, if you will) that doesn't actually achieve any work. I may feel great, but I don’t win. I don’t need to forgive anyone, and they don’t need to change the label they use to identify themselves and the affinity group in which they feel comfortable. I'll call it a victory if they make the minimal set of choices required such that their behavior no longer prevents me from getting the work done. It’s not their job to make me happy.

You seem to have fully equated Republicans with Fascists in every sense. It seems that simply by having voted Republican in an election an individual has become the equivalent of Mussolini. (See fascism for a working definition.) Is that true? Does that choice make my 80 year old neighbor, Joe, personally a Fascist? Maybe you live in a place where the Republicans are all evil - where I live, most of them are just wrong. Joe is about as far away from the definition of a Fascist as I can imagine, although he's not far away from it in the same direction I am, nor does it sound like I'm distant from from it in the same direction you are.

Just as a hypothetical, how much coercion would you feel justified in applying in order to get Republicans to 'circumcise they hateful ideology' and 'truly adopt democratic ideals'? If not coercion, then by what means do you propose to change their behavior?

[mikelewis]

42. Coercion is a good word because there are many ways to coerce change without...

...physical force. One such acceptable and desirable method has been used to great success many times in the past... ex-communication and/or complete and outright rejection of the premise these people choose to stand on. Do not tolerate them... do not applaud their temporary and insincere wish to vote for Obama as a indication that their entire ideology of government isn't evil. Your plan of congratulating someone for not beating their wife on one particular day may seem like a good short-term strategy but the repugnance of the criminal actions that have been committed as a result of the slack-jawed sycophantic nature of the drooling Republicans should never be applauded... Indeed, their very nature must change if we could ever say they were good human beings; let alone call them good Americans. One vote for Obama does not make up for the thousands of votes against humanity, it does not make up for the millions of people who died by their votes... it does not expiate their sins because they momentarily supported what was right. They must undergo a complete revolution of values... they must come to see that their very soul is an affront to everything that is decent about the Democratic process and they must indeed kill that part of themselves that allows evil to prosper in their names. Notice I said "they" must because I cannot do that for them... no one pours new wine into an old wineskin and I am not about to resurrect the ridiculous notion of conversion by fire. They must choose for themselves the correct and yes, divine path towards a better world... so I propose we do as we have done... deny and decry their evil ways while allowing them to heap on as much evil as their stomachs can bear... and then add even more until their skins break and the ideology on which they drink is spilled on the floor and ruined.

Also, it is not I who have turned Republicanism into Fascism but they who have done it. You are right, my definition of American Republicanism does in every way resemble fascism. Hmmm... maybe it's not that my definition of Fascism is wrong but that our definition of Republicanism is so likened unto fascism that it hardly seems to be different at all. What difference are left between Fascism and Republicanism? Indeed the methods were so similar it's hard to tell the two apart... it may be the only difference lies in the word itself and the attempt to change the name resides in the the shame that results out of each failed attempt to ruin and enslave the world. This week it's Republicanism... last week it was Fascism... the week before last it was Nazism... and two thousand years ago it was called imperial domination. A rose is a rose is a rose... is a rose. Who cares what we call it... it exists in our communal nature... this gross and despicable desire to crush the weak, rape the poor, steal from the widow and orphan the down-trodden... that's what is being done in the name of Republicanism... and those who support it are essentially bad people... yes, they are... you may not want to believe it because they look so normal... they act so polite but inside... in their hearts they are demonic and should desire above all else to kill that evil demon that ruins not only their soul but the very world in which they inhabit. I guess a true Republican of old... long since dead and buried... can be a good person... dedicated to democracy... rooted by the Constitution... raised in belief that honor and justice and even the rule of law should be supreme... theoretically they could exist somewhere and might even exist in small covens strewn throughout the land... however, their voices do not lead their party... their voices do not influence the party... their voices only join with the voices of evil on election day to perpetuate even more despicable acts... so what value are they? Lukewarm advocates of justice and tepid champions of freedom do not in anyway make any difference in the direction of their party other than as Job-like show pieces for greater spirits to show off and conduits for demonic spirits to inflict their devilish ways upon the weak.

And your opinion does not in any way lead into mine... your opinion vacillates and even falls prey to the same demons these "Good" republicans allow to prosper because it does not define the evil as evil but masks their ideology as well-intentioned and basically good; if wrong-headed. They are not basically good... you are wrong... I am sorry that you are wrong... but you are. Rationalize and forgive them all you like and I promise you... in twenty years... ten years... five years... maybe next year... they will be back, doing to us what has been done to us. Using your ideology America could be alright if McCain was to take control and continue the brutally evil path we have been on... because essentially he seems good intentioned... polite... maybe even kind... maybe someone you'd want to have a beer with and call buddy. Fuck that and fuck Republicans... if they want to vote for Obama... fine, it's a free country but don't assume they are anything but what they have always been... vicious and tragic.

[RichardRay]

43. How about just changing you sig line?

Then I'll just toddle off and keep doing the real work while you masturbate. Yes, my opinion vacillates all the time, but as I said way up there someplace, I don't operate from my opinions, I operate from my analysis.

[mikelewis]

48. Indeed... though I wonder if you can even comprehend that statement...

If Martin used your approach blacks and whites would be peacefully segregated still to this day... I'm sure many of your Republican friends wouldn't actually complain about this; and as long as the blacks were polite, they wouldn't even say a word about it. And I really wonder what work you think you're doing... I doubt you're doing much of anything seeing as how... in your area... the Utopian vision of peace and Democracy is alive and vibrant... what need is there for a crusading avenger of justice in a world where injustice does not exist between people of different ideologies.

Oh but I can feel your frustration... yes I can... you're mad now because you know you are wrong... you know your world view doesn't stand up to reality... that you just can't hope for a better world... you first have to see the world as it is... you're mad because you know when you stick your head back into the sand, you may have to taste a little bitterness in the dirt; seeing as how not everyone agrees with your view of what peace is... you believe peace is mutual acceptance of a shared reality... that is not peace... peace is a strong and immutable staff of justice and equality that all people can rely on; so in the times when there is no peace we can all have something by which to gauge our actions... now it's off to masturbation and maybe even a little Hitman 2 which is always fun... putting down soulless drones is mindless fun... which is why I enjoyed our conversation so much.

[RichardRay]

49. I really admire the facility with which you type.

And I feel your anger, too. Too bad I don't feel any changes in the world as a result of it.

but, being a really good typist who's really angry doesn't make you

'...a crusading avenger of justice in a world where injustice does not exist between people of different ideologies'

Really, it doesn't!

As for me, I'm just an ordinary man who does the best he can.

Have a good time...

[mikelewis]

52. My typing is terrible... it's my reasoning that's pretty good...

Sorry for hurting your feelings and I appreciate the spirit in which you try and defend moderation but moderation has no place here... as you said... "that shit don't cut it around here". Make a stand... pick a side and fight... you don't have to kill people... you don't have to ruin your soul... just stop accepting evil as good... also know your enemy as do yourself... I know my failings and I know my faith... that gives me an advantage and I use it to change the world. You can too... just find out how. Oh and btw... you are not ordinary... you are a Democrat which in and of itself does not make you a good man... it just makes it easier to be a good man if you choose to be. Happy Easter my friend...

[JoFerret]

51. typical folk then

.

[Johnnie vs Jack]

4. man

I hope you're right...this country needs to forget about party lines and vote their minds...

[zabet]

5. Well, he probably will not get

the republican Christian support...

OBAMA: CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIAN LEADERS HAVE HIJACKED FAITH HARTFORD, Conn. (AP) Senator Barack Obama has told members of his denomination that some conservative Christian leaders have exploited and politicized religion to sow division.

In a 30-minute speech before the national meeting of the United Church of Christ, which supports gay marriage, the Democratic presidential candidate said, "Faith got hijacked, partly because of the so-called leaders of the Christian Right, all too eager to exploit what divides us." Obama said, "They've told Evangelical Christians that Democrats disrespect their values and dislike their church, while suggesting to the rest of the country that religious Americans care only about issues like abortion and gay marriage, school prayer and intelligent design." Obama said a growing number of evangelicals are concerned about poverty and the environment.

http://www.kxmb.com/News/137946.asp

Those Christian leaders have Christian followers.

[Voice for Peace]

14. You might be surprised. This is an outstanding speech from 2006, if you haven't

already seen it, take the time.
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid463869411?bctid=416343938
Speech about religion and politics.

[zabet]

15. Seen it and know

that I have heard many
here in our small NC town
say that there is no way
they could vote for Obama
after seeing his preacher
'God damn America'.
A preacher who does not abide
the 'Thou shalt not use the
Lord's name in vain' and blasphemes
with God damn, will cause Christians
to take pause, which many have.

[BeatleBoot]

6. Texas Pukes Love Obama - over 500,000 strong... at least for a day!

http://republicansforobama.org/?q=node/359


E-mail to send to Texas Republicans


Attention All Texas Republicans and Independents!!

On March 4th, Texas Republicans and Independents will have an opportunity to end Hillary Clinton's (and Bill's) presidential ambitions once and for all!

Since Texas has on open primary, Republicans and Independents should sign in at their polling place and request a Democratic ballot. They should then vote for Barack Obama. Even James Carville admits that if Hillary loses Texas, "she's done!" Republicans can help make this a reality!!! Just think, no more Clintons in the White House!

Voting Democratic this one time will have NO effect on your ability to vote in the next Republican primary or obviously on your vote in November. Since John McCain has the Republican nomination locked up, voting for McCain or Huckabee at this point will have no effect on the outcome on the Republican side.

After you vote during early voting or on March 4th, you ARE NOT done! Report back to your regular polling place at 7PM on March 4th to sign the Barack Obama list for caucus delegates. In a little known Texas voting quirk, 67 delegates to the Democratic convention will be seated because of these caucuses. This is a full one-third of the total number of Texas delegates. For Hillary to lose, she has to lose the primary votes AND the caucus votes.

I urge you to vote against Hillary Clinton by voting for Barack Obama. Please forward this e-mail to all your Texas Republican and Independent friends so that we can help ensure the Clinton's defeat on March 4th!!!

[theredpen]

27. I know one Texas Republican that will be returning for Obama in the GE

I'm sure there are more.

[vita405]

7. Agree that not all Republicans are racist. But McCain isn't racist either

McCain has not proved to be racist, as far as I know.

[kentuck]

9. No. McCain is not a racist, in my opinion...

But if he wins and the present policies continue, the Republican Party may be "perceived" as racist by going negative on Barack Obama?

[faithfulcitizen]

17. No, not a racist, but he could care less about how many brown people die in 100 years of war.

or white or black for that matter.

[anonymous171]

8. Repugs don't vote Obama because of race. Many don't give a shit or are racist themselves.

What they DO talk about though, is how the Neocons have infected their party and corrupted its ideals. They want the Neocons out, and they see the best way to do this is by electing Obama who is the least neocon-ish candidate. It will send a message to Washington that the Neoconservative movement has ended.

[vita405]

10. I think that's an exaggeration

I think that because Republicans have sided with Obama against their hated Hillary is by no means an indication that they will choose Obama and his progressive positions over Mccain, who shares many more common views.

It would make more sense to argue that many independents will move to Obama's side, but Republicans, I don't think so.

[anonymous171]

12. Remember all the support anti-war repug Ron Paul had?

I've heard many ex-paultards say that they will probably vote Obama in the GE.

[Voice for Peace]

11. I think it's going to be even a higher percentage than that. nt

[Vinca]

16. Susan Eisenhower is a nice endorsement. Oddly, Ike was more liberal

than a good chunk of Democrats. That was back in the day when both parties worked for the betterment of the country, not the enrichment of the corporations.

[npincus]

18. my neighber is a Republican, and she loves Obama

She's a lovely person, and has apologized to me for voting for Chimpy in 2000. She still is Republican though, and will only "cross over" if Obama's the nominee.

[cooolandrew]

20. I think it is more that they see Reagan in him who inspired them.

[mikekohr]

21. Obama Is Attracting Republican Voters, Clinton will unite and energize the darkside

I live in a county that has been dominated by the Republican Party since the 1850's. Senator Obama is attracting support among people here, and across the nation, that have never shown desire to support any Democrat.

We will make big gains in the Senate and in the House this fall. But like it or not, to win the White House, and to lift the entire ticket even higher will require the ability to attract support among independents, moderates, and to be able to peel away that thin sliver of reasonable Republicans. Senator Obama has demonstrated that ability ovwer and over again.

mike kohr

[Colobo]

23. Good post, mike!

[jackson_dem]

45. They both are getting the same level of rethug support against McCain

The difference is Obama bleeds away a lot of Democrats while Clinton preserves the party...

[bevoette]

24. my mother....

...spouts Rebulican talking points with no thought whatsoever. I don't even try and talk to her (not that i'm a hardcore Dem anyway). she hasn't voted Democratic since Kennedy. she's one of those that think Dems are all dirty, left-wing hippies. heh.

anywya, she was SO angry after the TX primary - she didn't vote, of course, but she called me and said "leave it to the Democrats to mess this up!!"

why? b/c Clinton "won" (initially) and she was PISSED...b/c she wants to vote for Obama in November :)

you just never know what people will do B-)

[jackson_dem]

46. We hear such examples all the time as if crossover voting was created by Obama

There are just as many rethugs who will crossover for Clinton as Obama (8% versus 5% is within the margin of error) and just as many voted for Gore (8%) and Kerry (6%). They just didn't have the msm behind them like Obama does and hence there was no talk of "Gorecons".

[ClayZ]

26. K and R

[AllentownJake]

31. My Mother

Last democrat she voted for was McGovern. Than she married my dad, converted to the lutheran chruch, and joined the GOP. She just switched her registration to vote in the primary for Barack. Sports a Barack pin and T-shirt. Anyway things seem to be changing.

[ClayZ]

38. Nice! McGovern was my first vote!

Peace and Love!

[FyurFly]

36. "Typical" White People

Will NOT vote for Obama.

[jackson_dem]

44. Obama is getting 8% of rethugs against McCain which is the same as Gore, Kerry, and Hillary

Clinton gets 5%, Gore got 8%, and Kerry 6%. "Obamacons" are a media invention. Did you hear any talk of "Gorecons" or "Bushcrats" (he won 11% of Dems both times)?

[GoldieAZ49]

47. I don't 'perceive' the party as racist. Certainly not the McCain's

Where does that come from? There are racist in every party, social, economic status and race.

[JoFerret]

50. According to the Guardian

its GOP voters aiming to mess up the dem primary