Why (or why not) is Florida and Michigan howard Dean's fault?

[leftupnorth]

I hear certain talk show hosts, Democrats, and other assorted animals blaming the Florida and Michigan situation on Howard Dean.

Seems to me, the only body with the authority to move the primary elections up were the Florida and Michigan legislatures, and the only body that could authorize a re-vote in either state is the state legislature. I think Howard Dean has tried to do what he can to keep things fair, but he's not the king of the Democrats, there are more players involved here than just Dean.

I also hear people accuse the Obama and Clinton campaigns for not getting a re-vote in either state. Seems to me neither campaign has much control over what happens in Florida or Michigan.

Am I wrong here?

Why or why not?

[Texas Hill Country]

1. because he is the head of the DNC and bears ultimate responsiblity. Obama also bears responsability

[slick8790]

20. Everyone's at fault except your girl, eh?

You know, the one who said it's clear that it was a meaningless election? But only unless she needs their delegates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULxxBz-PAjg

[dkf]

2. He is not responsible. Michigan and Florida are rulebreakers

They think they can do whatever the hell they want and the rest of us have to suck it up.

Too damn bad.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

25. RE: He is not responsible. Michigan and Florida are rulebreakers

I hope you keep that cheery disposition come November. You can suck up the 7 day difference between supper Tuesday and our primary date or you can suck up 4 years of McCain. I hope you brought your straw.

[dkf]

26. Seriously, who is to blame here?

Dean is trying to enforce rules that Florida agreed to, until they decided they were superior to the rest of us.

Florida can do a do-over. They are in charge of their own destiny. The DNC will not stop a revote, nor will any of the candidates.

Take responsibility for your screwup.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

28. RE: Seriously, who is to blame here?

The democratic leadership in every state should have refused to agree to rules that would disenfranchise the voters. The DNC should have refused to honor rules that would disenfranchise the voters. The DNC should not have carried out the unjust punishment on the voters. Howard Dean, should have been more diplomatic in the public eye when speaking on the situation until such time as a resolution could be found behind the scenes (his blunt nature didn't serve him well in this situation). The Democratic presidential candidates should have been outspoken on the issue demanding that the voters of the states in question be recognized. A lot of people lost their honor on this issue, yet the voters are punished.

I played no part in the decisions that brought us to to this outcome. I voted on the day that Florida state law mandated. There is a lot of blame to go around on this issue, but none of it falls on the democratic voters of the state, and we are the only ones being punished for the mishap. I see you mind has framed the issue as my fault as a voter and you seem stubborn, so I will avoid an attempted to pursued you and just say: pucker up and get to sucking. I'll leave your choice of beverage up to you. In one hand you have a 4 year supply of McCain, and the other you have 7 day primary drink. Take your pick.

[leftofcool]

3. Doesn't matter who is at fault now...

When we lose the GE to McCain because Florida and Michigan are now swing states and will probably go the Repukes, Dean will get the blame no matter what. There are some states that have to be won in the election in order to get enough electoral votes......Florida, Ohio, California, Texas. Texas is Republican country, California is not looking good right now, we are fast losing Ohio, and to disenfranchize Florida is a stupid move on everybody's part right now because we need it. Just my pure speculation.

[susankh4]

4. They will have achieved their ultimate goal...

White Guys in the White House forever!

Dean and his cronies will see to it.

[leftupnorth]

11. Your response has been flagged for lack of sarcasm smilie or extreme ignorance n/t

[Exilednight]

6. Texas has been written off since Carter's second run......

but in the latest polls Obama is still dead even with McCain in Texas. Pa will swing Democratic thanks to Philadelphia and the Jersey border. Ohio is to hard to tell and California will be Democratic no matter who the nominee is. I would write off Florida if McCain picks Crist as his running mate.

[DrDan]

5. I can tell you why I think he shares some of the fault - I cannot speak for the others

I think the rule was extremely unfair - and Dean should never have allowed the "punishment" to go forward.

I think one of the foundations of our party is that everyone's vote counts. Equality in voting is critical. You cannot take away one's voice through voting for something beyond one's control - to include things like race, or sex. Should you fail to register, or be a convicted felon - then of course it is different - those actions are within your control.

So - had the rule punished the legislators - or the state party - that would have been different. Instead, the DNC decided to disenfranchist the voters.

In addition - we also have the issue of superdelegates. They seem to not be bound to any dates. So how is that fair - when states need to line up behind a DNC timeline?

I think the thing is out of control - and fundamentally unfair - and that then becomes Dean's fault (to me) for not bringing a level of fairness to the whole process.

[elixir]

10. Excellent point, DrDan. I think Dean should have levied a punishment for the state

legislatures, not the voters. Also, Dean keeps espousing "the states need to find a solution that doesn't break the rules", what an asshole. This is his only responsibility, to make sure every state is represented to bring a democratic nominee to the GE. Now we are missing two important states, MI and FL, he messed up.

Even a 50/50 split would at least allow the delegates to be seated at the convention.

[DrDan]

21. not only are we missing two key states

we have primaries in Puerto Rico and Guam . . . and we have this whole mess surrounding superdelegates.

Our nomination process is so screwed up. The real voters are only a portion of the decision. IMHO they should be the entire process.

[ecdab]

7. Because Dean mind controlled the Michigan and Florida

legislatures into breaking the rules that they had voted for! 101100111!!%^ He should have made them not cast direct votes that had a known consequence! ^^10110000!!!! And Obama is to blame as well - he wasn't fighting to have the Michigan delegation seated based on a vote where he wasn't on the ballot!!***0011100101!!! Obama isn't trying to punish the other 48 states by having a skewed delegation from Michigan seated - bastard, how could he care about the other 48 states that followed the rules!!!1011110111&&*101. All that matters is trying to find ways to blame all thing on Obama!!!1011011#%%#!!! It is all his fault! MUST - FIND - WAY - TO - ELECT - HILLARY - MUST - CONSEQUENCES - BE - DAMNED!!!101111100#&$*&$!!!!!

[Me.]

8. First Of All

With all the blather about the Cons forcing the Fla dems into this, it turns out it was one of those very dems who introduced the bill, all but one voted against it, no amendments were offered, or putting up any type of a fight against it which would have worked in their favor and mitigated the outcome. Then they went before the rules committee and lied to their faces on matters which could easily checked. Then there is the situation in Fla. where the dems being way too cozy with the Cons. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, the chairman of the DCCC red -blue strategy there, says she won't endorse the dem candidates over her Con friends who hold the contested seats. You have a Fla. party bigwig working for and being paid a hundred grand by a Con bigwig.

In addition, it has come out that the Fla. dems were fully aware they were breaking the rules and decided to do so anyway, because...they thought they would only lose half their delegates. So they were ok with half the voters being ignored as long as they got their way. They were shocked when the Rules Committee stripped them of all their delegates/

[Maribelle]

24. HB 537 of 2007 was introduced by David Rivera (R-Miami)

and everything else in your post is totally false

[rocktivity]

9. DING DING DING! Leftupnorth, you're our grand prize winner!

(T)he only body with the authority to move the primary elections up were the Florida and Michigan legislatures...

They're blaming Dean to deflect blame from themselves and undermine the progressive end of the party. Meanwhile, Hillary's blaming Obama for wanting any re-votes or compromises to be sanctioned by the DNC. Good for you for not believing the hype!

:applause:
rocknation

[leftupnorth]

14. Thanks!

I agree, I think it is an effort to freeze out the democratic wing of the Democartic party by taking shots at Dean.

The DLC hates the democratic wing and Howard Dean.

Why?

I think it's obvious. He knows how to win in every state without selling your soul.

[rucky]

12. Those are the facts as I know them. n/t

[Recursion]

13. I personally blame New Hampshire and Iowa

If they weren't so stubborn with their fantasy that they have some magical powers of picking Presidents, this wouldn't be an issue. Practically, however, the blame obviously lies with the Florida and Michigan state legislatures. I don't know why they didn't want their states' votes counted, but they clearly didn't, or they would have run valid primaries.

[meow mix]

15. PS Republicans would have to vote too. how is that going to happen legally?

its impossible..

Hillary pushed them to break the rules so she could wrap up an early primary win. oops.

[Bentcorner]

16. Will this just happen every four years? States with Republican

controlled state legislators will just reschedule the primary so Howard Dean takes away every Democrat's vote? People will then have to choose between being a registered Democrat where their vote wont count or being a Republican where at least they will have a vote. I guess I just don't understand how Howard Dead is punishing Republican state legislators by taking away the vote of Democrats.

[dansolo]

17. It was the Rules and Bylaws Committee that took away the delegates of MI and FL

Howard Dean is NOT a member of the Rules and Bylaws Committee. He is just choosing to abide by their decision.

What I don't understand is why Harold Ickes, who is associated with the Hillary campaign, isn't being blamed for the situation. He is a member on the Rules and Bylaws Committee.

[ieoeja]

18. It's Dean fault.

Dean did not make the rules. They were made by a DNC then headed up by members of the DLC.

Dean did not break the rules. Members of the DLC broke the rules.

So why would the DLC break the very rules they made? Because the DNC is temporarily run by an opponent of the DLC.

The DLC is fighting for control of the party. The Florida and Michigan debacle is merely the lateset part of a strategy that we have seen played out since 2005. They have done everything they can to undermine the Democratic Party since they lost control of it.

So it is Dean's fault for opposing the DLC. Were he a DLC advocate we would not have this problem. All he has to do is join the DLC and shut down Democratic Party offices in 30+ states.

:sarcasm:

[Johnny__Motown]

19. It's not, when MI moved it's/our Primary up Clinton was presumed inevitable and nobody thought this

cycle would matter.


It was reported here (I can't speak for FL) that we would accept the punishment this time and set the precedent for an early primary here. That way we could continue to have an early primary in the future (presumably) without further punishment.


It was the arrogance of Gov. Grandholm, a strong Clinton supporter, who is to blame for Michigan's primary debacle.

[Maribelle]

22. Dean is as fault for two reasons.

#1 Sheer stupidity. Punishing 2 million democrats for the actions of a relatively few legislatures punishes not only innocent democrats in two states, the long-term repercussions of this massive political blunder will be felt by the entire democratic party for years to come.

#2 Extreme and disproportionate punishment. When the governor of florida signed the election reform bill into law, the 2008 DNC delegate rules said early states would have 50% of their delegates removed and there was another clause that sated the DNC rules committee could add additional sanctions. Three months after the law was passed the DNC stripped 100% of the delegates - - unlike the RNC, which also had a 50% rule before the law was passed, and kept it at 50% after. The Republicans in Florida and Michigan are golden - - a prime example of how wrong the DNC was in their extreme punishment of innocent democrats.

And in Florida there is a third reason: #3 Sheer egomaniacal obliviousness The Republicans were going to successfully pass the election reform bill without one single democratic vote. Democrats hands were tied. The full election reform bill provided for other desperately needed rules - such as mandating a paper trail for all votes - and the democrats would have been remiss in the eyes of Floridians to vote against a paper trail.

[Me.]

23. Pish

Tosh

[lefty from jersey]

27. Who the hell is Howard Dean?

Howard Dean is solely to blame for the mess that this primary has become. He tried to engineer the primary because he has a dog in the fight. The dog is Hillary. Now we have no candidate, the party is tearing itself apart and when it is all over we will have figured out how to screw up a two car parade.