ALL Non-Catholics will burn in agony in the flames of HELL for eternity

[Submariner]

That is the what my church in the Archdiocese of Boston teaches it's flocks from the pulpit, and what was drilled into my head by Sister Perpetual Agony and her cohorts in sister school.

Should I, and all other catholics, leave the church and condemn the Archbishop and Pope for these controversial remarks?

I'm inclined to say yes, since it's the same style of bigoted hate speech that Rev. Wright teaches his flock. What say you catholics? You heathen non-catholics can chime in too, but your words don't matter because your going to hell anyway you pagan bastards. }(

[BooScout]

1. I don't beleive in religion.......

Pretty much it's fucked the whole world up. How's that?

[rodeodance]

20. yes it has.

[FreakinDJ]

2. That is not what I was taught in Catholic school

"Any true faith in God that invokes a person the practice the golden rule will get them to heaven"

During my 12 years in catholic schools that is what I was taught

[mmonk]

8. Yes. I'm 51 years old and was never taught that.

That would be through three Catholic Churches. The structure of the mass doesn't allow it either since there is one reading from the Old Testament, One from the New Testament, and then a Homily addressing the readings. No room for commentary off the subject.

[Submariner]

13. I'm 10 years older than you, and what I said is what we were taught

in 12 years of sister school in Boston. If you were taught the opposite, then God must have come down when i was out of town and changed the rules.

[mmonk]

19. I was taught there were varying degrees

as far as to the teachings. So I guess He did at least in mine. I was never taught that Protestants were going to hell. Must be a different approach in the dioceses.

[FreakinDJ]

28. I never taught what you are describing in 12 yrs of catholic school

and prior to confirmation you had to study ALL religions.

I remember the nun's words vividly as if it was yesterday, "Any honest faith in god and practicing the golden rule will get you to heaven"

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

55. Interesting about confirmation

In the Methodist church, we had to study Judaism and learn about other Christian sects before confirmation. We seemed to have copied a good idea from you Catholics. :)

[Lannigan]

60. 8 years of Catholic School

and those exact words never came out of someone's mouth...but I did have a 6th grade teacher who alluded that non-Catholics wouldn't get into heaven. I raised my hand and politely stated that I believed my Dad, and his parents - all non-Catholics, would be there because they were good people. She had nothing to say to that.

I'm still a Catholic I guess, but I don't go to any church - I think I'm recovering?

Oh yeah, and I'm gay, so I'm definitely going straight to hell (according to Them).

[Debi]

71. My husband is 65 and was taught that he and his fellow classmates

were 'soldiers of God' - Catholicism was THE only true religion. I'm 40 and we were taught to be 'fishers of men' who should show our fellow believers in God that our religion was THE only true religion.

This is a second marriage for both of us - outside the Church - so we'll see you in hell. :7

(And welcome to DU btw :hi:)

[Lannigan]

91. I am LMAO and thanks for the welcome! - NT

[FreakinDJ]

89. Being Gay and Catholic.....

I wonder how many of the Gay Priest the Pope beleives are going to hell

Honestly is it the Catholic church that teaches you will go to Hell for being gay?

[Lannigan]

92. I probably should research this

but I'm going to go out on a limb and say YES - I believe it's considered one of the mortal sins, which means if you never repent and aren't truly sorry, you will not get to heaven. I don't even think you'll go to purgatory (wait, I don't think that exists anymore?), but straight to damnation.

Since I'm not sorry and won't repent (I am who I am), I guess I'll find out one of these days ;-)

[FreakinDJ]

94. I am assuming they have changed their position on that

1.) It was taken from a passage of the Old Testiment in the story of Saddam and Gomora that led to the belief being Gay would lead to eternal Damnation

2.) It is a "Literal Translation" which lended to the passage they were punished for being gay. Being the Bible was handed down by word of mouth for generations before being put into written form on paper is some thing most Catholic Diocies teach CAN'T be done. Try searching "Translation Bible" and you will see all the Catholic Bishops speaking out against "Literal Translation"

[bklyncowgirl]

40. I think it was Pope John XXIII who changed the rules. Ecumenism ruled except for on elderly nun.

I'm 53 and had 12 years of Catholic school.

One time, an elderly nun who was substituting for our regular religion teacher when I was in second grade told us that non-Catholics would burn in hell. Being an impressionable child who's father was a nominal Episcopalian and whose friends were of faiths varying from the various Protestant denominations to Syrian Orthodox to Jewish, I immediately went home and tried to convince these people that they needed to become Catholic ASAP. My father just sort of laughed it off. My friends weren't so forgiving. One of the parents broke up the ensuing fight and told my mother. I told her what the nun had said and she and my grandmother went straight to the principal.

Apparently the good sister had not gotten the Vatican II memo regarding tolerance of other religious faiths. She may have been suffering from early onset Alzheimers because she was known to be, shall we say, a few Hail Mary's short of a rosary.

Generally though religious tolerance was very much the rule in Catholic school in my day.

[Pirate Smile]

15. I wasn't either. My favorite class was a comparative religion class where we

learned the basics of the other major religions AND how all religions are attempts by people to answer the universal questions (i.e. what happens after we die, where did we come from, what is our purpose on earth, etc.).

The most basic premise of the class was tolerance, appreciation and understanding of different people.

It was taught by a nun.

[FreakinDJ]

32. I loved that class too

we were broken up into groups of 2 and all assigned a different religion to do a report on. We had Judaism and we were allowed to attend services at a Synagogue as part of our report. Everyone was really nice to us.

I remember this one old guy that was shaking all the kids hands - slipping them some candy

[MaineDem]

18. I agree with the OP

That's what I was taught for sure. I felt sorry for the kids who had a non-Catholic parent.

Thank goodness I later met Jesuits.

[Submariner]

26. Maine?

If you lived in Maine as a kid, your churches probably were influenced by the very strict and puritan Archdiocese of Boston at the time. I have lived all around the country since, and have not seen the bigotry I was taught as a kid. The Jesuits at Boston College were very strict and had a rep for some mean physical corporal punishment tactics in the '50s.

[MaineDem]

31. Yep, heavily influenced by the Archdioscese

The Jseuits were - and still are - very philosophical. I enjoy talking with them. I don't piss them off if I can help it though. :) (kididng.)

[Hangingon]

57. Twelve years in Catholic schools too.

I was never taught non-Catholics were going to HEll. I think I would have remembered because I would have been terribly worried for my fateher's Methodist parents.

[Tesha]

90. Notice these two words...

> "Any true faith in God that invokes a person the practice the golden rule will get them to heaven"

Notice these two words that I've emboldened.
A basic tenet of most faiths is that they and
they alone are "the one true faith".

Tesha

[mmonk]

3. Yeah, that would be hate speech.

My Catholic Church has never said such but it's probably out there. And many Protestant Churches say the same about Catholics. Sometimes, I don't know why people take pastors, priests, preachers, etc. so seriously as if they were speaking with some sort of truth. I guess my mindset never did, so it's hard for me to relate to such thoughts.

[newfie11]

7. That was directed against a religion

not a race.

[mmonk]

29. I know. But it inspires distrust and misunderstanding with others.

Therefore it is a form of hate speech IMO.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

63. I had Protestant cousins

who hated Catholics, and when we would go visiting, would try to convince my mother that Catholics were idol worshippers and worse. The cousins were in their 90s, and I am sure were repeating drivel they had heard as children. My mother would take their anti-Catholic tracts and, as soon as we were away, stop at a rest stop and throw them down the outhouse toilet hole (this was in the '60s, and rest stops were not flush toilets at the time). This action really drove home to me that intolerance was not something to value.

[blogslut]

4. First, define Reverend Wright's "bigoted hate speech"

?

[Submariner]

16. I don't believe it was "bigoted hate speech"

but it is what Fixed news via Hannity and O'Lielly is spewing out over the airwaves.

[blogslut]

36. Sorry, I misunderstood

I thought the statement in your OP reflected your view. I apologize.

[northzax]

5. no, you should leave your church

because it teaches crappy doctrine. you're thinking of born again Protestants.

[rug]

6. Too bad you get religion from cartoons.

[DontTreadOnMe]

9. Gotta Serve Somebody?

Aren't most religions based on cartoons?

[rug]

11. Dylan's a worse source to get religion from. And your answer is no.

[Submariner]

27. I don't get my religion from cartoons. I mock it with cartoons.

[rug]

37. Work on your mockery skills. I've seen better on bathroom walls.

[zanne]

10. Sister Perpetual Agony! HAH!

Mine was Sister Anne Cecile. I went to Catholic school in the 50's and in every classroom, in the right hand corner near the door, was a cardboard triangle with a huge eye on it. Underneath, it said "Dieu me voit". (God sees me). Catechism consisted of examples of menial and mortal sins and which ones would send us to hell. (I've done enough of them to get five consecutive eternities in hell).

[Hugabear]

12. Funny, I was always taught that Catholicss were the ones going to hell

At least, that's what I was taught when I was being raised in a fundie church. Once I started going to college, this was reinforced by several traveling fundies who would preach on the student green. One of these was named Brother Jim, who always attracted a rather large crowd. Not so much because anyone really believed what he said, but he was so entertaining with such gems as "never shake the hand of a masturbator!" He told us that frat boys, sluts, Catholics, Muslims, and pretty much anyone else who didn't believe like him was going to hell.

[Jamastiene]

51. That's what the Baptists down here preach.

Also, they say the Methodists are going to Hell too. Of course, the Methodists just eat and concentrate on when the next church dinner is going to take place.

[Hugabear]

54. Pentecostals believe everyone but them is going to hell

Of course, there are also different factions of Pentecostals, and they each think they're the only ones who have it right.

If there is a God, I wonder if he ever looks down and asks himself, "Why did I even bother"?

[Jamastiene]

98. Probably does.

My aunt says God is really a black Jewish woman and she is beside herself because we can't seem to get the "love one another" part right. She's probably right.

[ShortnFiery]

14. As a liberal Catholic, I can admit to hearing such things as "Teenage girls are going to hell" for

getting an abortion ... yet some Priests are remarkably silent when it comes to Execution.

Thank Heavens that I was sponsored by a liberal Franciscan Priest while going through RCIA for a year. We'd have heated arguments. For example, I'd throw out, "Hey, I'll go with you to protest at abortion clinics if you will, in turn, come with me to light a candle when a convict is executed at the State Penitentiary." Oh how people would emotionally SPIN OUT!

However, the FRIGHTENED Priest (not mine) officiating the lesson would quickly change the subject. Nothing solved, aye? :(

I try to look within myself because WE ALL harbor prejudices and stereotypes if only to make sense of our world.

IMO the most prejudice people are EXACTLY the ones who claim that they've moved beyond their temptations. I must always check myself. If I become too comfortable, then I KNOW I'm becoming too prejudice. Our LIFE experiences shape us both conscious and unconsciously.

IMO when Pat Buchanan and Lou Dobbs are "spot on" ... it's time to REFLECT. :blush:

[TriMetFan]

17. Can I ask what type of "Church"

you are going to for real???????? Because I teach Sunday School at my Catholic Church, and we sure don't teach to hate others.

[ShortnFiery]

21. I'm TOTALLY "for real." In Mass it's spoken in code ... the fire and brimnation of ABORTION.

However, I pulled my child out of Catholic School because the teachers there were FLAT OUT teaching that "Abortion will send you girls to hell." Further, using ANY form other than "the rhythm method of birth control" is a MORTAL SIN. I have since switched parishes albeit we have to drive 10 miles to Mass every Saturday Night/Sunday morning.

I believe that we should use the soft sell.

Oh, I forgot that "some" parishioners were passing out "Bush Cheney 04" bumper stickers after Masses during the run up to the Presidential election. But the most HURTFUL act was a teacher insisting that "Dogs have no souls" during her fifth grade class. I knew that my daughter didn't belong there because she stood up and said flat out, "I don't care what you say, MY DOG has a soul."

Yes, I'm a cafeteria Catholic who converted in 1996. I don't personally believe in abortion, but I can't make those decisions for others. I don't judge young teens who follow-through with getting abortions because I have NOT been in their situation.

My point: There IS demonstrated prejudice within every ORGANIZED religion but the whites who own the media become *very uncomfortable* (outraged?!?) when a BLACK minister preaches SOCIAL JUSTICE.

Yes, it's IMO both prejudicial and hypocritical. However, I doubt that the Rev. Hagee ever "looks within." :(

P.S. I still attend Mass (although at a liberal Parish) every week ... well with a few exceptions from time to time.

WHY hasn't the MSM covered the good works of Obama's Church?

[TriMetFan]

41. Well I don't want people going to

a place like that. Church is about teaching how to Love and understand one another. That is why I don't understand why Obama stayed in the first place.

[ShortnFiery]

47. That's the POINT! We don't know about the good works of Obama's Church.

You are judging an entire congregation of 8400 people (some white) who represent this Church on the South Side of Chicago.

Please consider, as a start perusing this site:

http://truthabouttrinity.blogspot.com/

Further, they took THOUSANDS of hours of his ministry and boiled it down into a 2 minute sound-byte. We should not EVEN judge, Rev. Wright solely on this media blather.

BTW my daughter was also taught just a few years ago that non-Catholics are going to Hell. It's pervasive within the Catholic Community. Consider your Parish "enlightened."

YET, I still attend mass. Silly me. I want to be a part of their Community, Pax Christi and work at the shelter. I can look beyond "the power brokers" of the Parish and find like minded people. :shrug:

[TriMetFan]

99. I understand were you are coming from but....

when some one of the cloth makes comments like that, that would be enough for me to walk out, no matter what they have done otherwise. Rev. Wright could have used other words.

[pnwmom]

77. The code is in the ears of the receiver. I've never heard it at my parishes.

I have heard a lot about love and forgiveness and grace, however.

[Submariner]

22. I attended the Immaculate Conception Church and it's school

for 8 years, then North Cambridge Catholic High School for 4 years (1952 through 1964). The nuns were Sisters of St. Joseph in grade school, and Dominican nuns in high school.

And I was taught "EXACTLY" the words in my original subject line. When I reflect on it, I consider it a form of child abuse to teach that sort of bigotry. I find religion beneath me and my moral standards, but brought up this subject to highlight the hypocrisy of religion and it's teachings of the world of make believe, in light of how religious teachings and sermons are being used to hammer Obama.

[MaineDem]

24. I just asked my husband

He grew up in Boston and did 12 years in Catholic schools with St Joseph nuns and Salesians in High School. His father was a Protestant and he just said he was INDEED taught the same thing. In fact, the nuns actually told him they were praying for his father to convert so he wouldn't go to hell.

He's two years older than you.

[Submariner]

35. Thank him for confirming I'm not hallucinating

[tomg]

65. The watershed was Pope John XXXIII and Vatican II.

I am about 3 years younger than you and about 5 or 6 older than some posters who have vague recollections of what you recall. It was so weird. For the first twelve years of my life, everyone who was not Catholic was pretty much going to hell ( but if they were "good" pagans, al la Dante, they got to hang out in a rather boring section called Limbo - the theological equivalent of the DMV - where my baby sister who died before baptized, also resided. The Vatican shut it down last year and they all immigrated to Heaven. Boy, I'll bet Lou Dobbs is pissed about that. But I digress).

Suddenly, and you know how suddenly it was, the mass is in English, they flip the altar around, nuns start getting makeovers, priests start dopping out, and the Vexilia Regis is replaced by Michael Row the Boat A Shore ( now that was a mistake). A former altar boy, I can still do chunks of mass in Latin and recite the Baltimore Catchecism.

Incidently, if you really want some weird flashbacks, sometimes you can catch old Bishop Sheen reruns on TV. Scary shit.

[Submariner]

68. Bishop Fulton J. Sheen I remember well

My Grandma made me watch him every week, followed by Lawrence Welk. She kept me handy to adjust the rabbit ears antenna to get good TV reception.

When I graduated H.S. and went into the Navy, one of the last things I recall was hearing the church switched to the English Mass. I couldn't help but think, gee, why didn't they do that a long time ago, then maybe I'd understand what the hell they were saying. I remember the Novena's at this time of year (Easter), because I was a skinny kid and the up and down kneeling on those wooden pews were hell on my kneecaps.

Kudo's to you, I didn't make it to alter boy status, even though my mother pushed it, because I couldn't stand memorizing all that Latin. I'm not sure makeovers would have helped my nuns.

Well, that was a trip down memory lane.

[TriMetFan]

43. Read post 41

[Debi]

74. Looking at the responses here

I think Vatican II had some affect on the thought process of the preists/nuns in our churches.

[pnwmom]

79. You're talking pre-Vatican, too, as I suspected. Why pretend that nothing

has changed since the fifties and early sixties?

[crankychatter]

23. horse shit

The social gospel is nothing like the rigid theology of Catholicism

Wright doesn't teach hate in his church... he teaches the love of justice.

Renew your library card

[michaz]

25. That is NOT what the Diocese of Ogdensburg teaches.

I work at a Catholic Church and I can tell you that is not the teachings of the Catholic Church! Our priests belong to a Ministerial group that is made up of all the churches and pastors in the area. They meet once a month and combine all kinds of church activities. To make a general comment like you make is just plain wrong!

[MaineDem]

33. I think they've changed in the last 40 or so years

I don't know what they teach now but this, for sure, what I was taught in the 50s and 60s.

[Submariner]

39. It is indeed plain wrong...to teach that crap...see post #24 for confirmation

but it is word for word what I was taught. PERIOD.

[michaz]

52. I attended Catholic School and am 58. I was not taught that.

I find it hard to believe that there could be such a difference in these schools between Maine and NY.

[MaineDem]

58. I never set foot in a Protestant church until well after I was married

I attended Girl Scouts in the basement of a Congregationsl Church and I'd peek in the doorway (they had carpeted floors; we had stone. I was amazed!) but I'd go to hell if I actually went in. Honestly, that's what we were taught.

[pnwmom]

81. It might be what you WERE taught, 40 or 50 years ago.

But it's wrong to say that they're still teaching it today, as you did in the OP.

[Bread and Circus]

30. Weren't both Kennedys (JFK, RFK) both actively Catholic back when they were running for Pres?

I don't even want to think what the Catholic Church was saying back in 1960, pre Vatican II.

[ihelpu2see]

34. This has been by point. As an agnostic/atheist who attends a catholic church with my wife

They are always talking about how prayer should be in public schools.... This is obviously unconstitutional, and should I therefor not be an elected official, since the church is swaying me so???

[pnwmom]

82. I've never heard that from the pulpit or anywhere else in a Catholic church.

Why would Catholics want state-directed prayer in public schools? Maybe you should find another parish.

[Texas Hill Country]

38. How old are you, because I am in my 30's and was not taught this at all... Pre-Vatican II perhaps?

[Submariner]

42. 61 - I attended from '52 to '64

and what does Vatican II have to do with it? God said all non-catholics will burn in hell for eternity, and until he comes back and says something different, it can't change. That would be the height of hypocrisy.

[FreakinDJ]

46. So what is the difference between that and most "Christian Churches"

Many many "Christian Congregations" will readily tell you Catholics are NOT Christians

I've had members of the Seventh Day Adventist Church tell me they firmly believe Catholics are the "Anti-Christ"

Their are many examples of prejudice on all sides

[Texas Hill Country]

56. ummm... no, and Vatican II changed TONS. way to keep up with the faith...

[MaineDem]

48. Absolutely pre-Vatican II!

This was in the 50s and 60s. I sure hope and assume things have changed since then.

[Texas Hill Country]

59. yeah, Vatican II was a radical revision of Church teaching and removed everything like this stuff.

[ShortnFiery]

62. Yes, but we still follow practices of "eating light" and no meat today "Good Friday"

I made my family ham and cheese sandwiches THEN realized I'd have to switch ot peanut butter and jelly.

Hey - Guess what's for lunch tomorrow? ;)

[Debi]

78. And now Pope B will be changing it all back (as much as he can)

:crazy: We were told, it's okay that he's conservative b/c he won't be around for very long then we'll get a young and more liberal pope. Bull

[MethuenProgressive]

44. Complete nonsense. Stop making shit up to bitch about.

You're on ignore.

[mdmc]

45. At least it will be a dry heat

and it will only feel like an eternity.

[GrandmaJones7]

49. And "ALL Catholics are lead by an evil Pope who we must fight"

-didn't Osama Bin Laden just issue a statement to that effect yesterday? By attacking the Catholic church, aren't you agreeing with Osama?

Really - why do we allow such anti-Catholic bigotry on DU? I mean, you have a right to free speach, but that is NOT the same thing as a right to spread hate.

[Submariner]

64. I couldn't care less what Bin Laden thinks about the Pope

In light of the Rev Wright controversy, I just described my religious upbringing in the catholic church and it's disseminating the seed of bigotry against others in children via it's teachings. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Jamastiene]

50. I'm non Catholic, but went to a Catholic church once.

I say condemn them for it. I'm going to hell anyways, right? I got nothing to lose. I say condemn them for it. :evilgrin:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

53. I think one must follow one's heart

I remained in the Methodist Church as a lay leader until one time in Sunday School when a respected member of the congregation made anti-Jewish jokes. I still remember standing up and saying "Attitudes like that caused the Holocaust" and walking out, never to return. It was my time to leave that church and take a turn on my spiritual path.

The power of religious institutions will remain as long as members stay. For some, it may be the right thing to do. But I would urge everyone to follow their hearts in matters like these.

[workinclasszero]

61. So when is Hillary and her reich wing henchmen going to condemn the Pope

and all of the millions of RC's that sit in his churches every week???:shrug:

[barb162]

70. Did she put the Pope on her campaign committee as Obama did with Wright?

Did Hillary send Chelsea to some hate-monger's sermons every Sunday?

[Mrs. Overall]

66. Not only was I a student in Catholic school, but I also taught religion/comparative religion in

Catholic high schools during the 1980's. Both schools that I taught at had a very ecumenical/inclusive philosophy. The curriculum did not include anything about hell or even purgatory and focused primarily on social justice and humanitarian concerns. When I attended Catholic high school in the mid to late 70's, there was also never any "hell talk" but a focus on cooperation among belief systems.
When I taught comparative religions, I actually presented a section on Wicca and brought in a Wiccan priestess who talked about nature and ritual.
And, I was a nun at the time.

[Submariner]

80. What a difference a couple of decades can make

Because all other religions were taboo, we kids were somewhat fascinated with what may be going on or said in other churches, especially local Jewish Temples and protestant denominations. We asked the nuns about visiting other churches/temples for a look see to satisfy our curiosity, but were told it would be a sin to sit with heathens and listen to their blasphemous teachings. For that reason, I never stepped into a synagogue or church because I would be just be adding another sin to my soul.

If Wiccan theology was ever brought up, I'm afraid the Sisters of my era would have had a fatal stroke.

Glad to see you left the order and made it out into the real world though. When I was naughty and had to stay after school to scrub blackboards and sweep floors, I noticed the nuns seemed to spend all their free time laundering and ironing, laundering and ironing, laundering and ironing, so as messed up as the outside world is, it has got to be better than being cloistered in a convent cleaning and ironing all day.

[Mrs. Overall]

84. Being a nun in the 1980's was very different than in the 50's or 60's--

We were sent to graduate school to study theology, lived in much smaller convents, only did our own laundry, wearing the short, modified habit was optional, a student from the culinary school cooked dinner for us, we participated in protests, we gave sanctuary in our convent to "illegal" immigrants from El Salvador escaping the violence there, all of the sisters were highly educated--most had PHDs in various fields, and most were very progressive and liberal--even the older sisters, who had lived through some tough times.
I recently received a newsletter from my old order and now they even have a lesbian support group for the nuns who are lesbians.
I learned so much by being a part of their community and sometimes wish I hadn't left (although I love my husband and kids!).

[pnwmom]

83. When I attended Catholic high school, the religion class everyone wanted to take

was called Marriage and the Family. The teacher acknowledged the church's position on birth control, then went on to explain the church's position on individual conscience. And then she taught us about the different methods of birth control, as well as about the beauty of having a baby with natural childbirth.

[Mrs. Overall]

88. Yes, we had the same class in the 70's. Everyone loved it and the teacher

also taught various methods of birth control.

Did you attend Catholic school on the West Coast? It does seem that West Coast Catholic schools tend to be more liberal. I went to school and taught in the San Francisco area, so the majority of schools were very progressive.

[pnwmom]

95. I was actually on the East coast.

But my mother was always telling me that they were careful to pick out a "liberal" order of nuns when choosing a school for us.

[barb162]

67. Was the nun put on a political campaign as Wright was?

[Submariner]

69. Boston is Kennedy country, so they told us to tell our parents

to vote for JFK, which was an automatic response for a native son anyway.

[barb162]

73. Kennedy wasn't saying the US government was giving AIDS

to blacks either (Of course AIDS wasn't known then either). I was never told in school who my parents should vote for, but then again I wasn't in a candidate state when I was in school.

[Seabiscuit]

72. The priest teaching that isn't engaging in political, racist, or sexist speech.

He's just spreading old Catholic dogma about the church of Rome being the one true church. Dogma which was overruled by Pope John XXIII in Vatican II. The context is limited to religion. And has no relevance to the growing number of us who don't participate in organized religion.

Whereas Rev. Wright's political, racist, and sexist screechings relate to all of us.

Apples and oranges. Apples and oranges.

[pnwmom]

85. And has no relevance to Catholics who've accepted Vatican II. n/t

[Pringles]

75. That's not what is taught in my Catholic Church

nor in the catechism.

However, yes, I have gotten up in the middle of a sermon and left never to come back after a priest made idiotic and hateful statements against Muslims and atheists from the altar.

[pnwmom]

76. How long has it been since you've actually been to church?

I suspect it's been several decades. If you are accurately describing a real church in 2008, then I suggest you find another Catholic parish to go to. I've never gone to one that meets your description, and the nuns that taught me in high school were wonderful and loving.

Boston is a large city. There are plenty of other parishes to choose from.

[Submariner]

87. Not since the mid-1960's have I attended

However, I was taught that God made the rules, and any deviation is a sin. So when I read about all these Vatican II changes, it sends the message to me that the church is changing God's rules in order to keep up with the times.

The problem I have with that is, since God has not returned and stated that these changes are authorized, then the church is just pandering to the flock to stop the wholesale abandonment of the church.

It hasn't worked out so well though, with a dozen or so Massachusetts parishes closed down due to no attendance anymore. Too little, too late, plus the child rape scandal has not helped their cause either.

[pnwmom]

97. Here's the key piece of theology that you're lacking.

The Catholic church views revelation -- through the Holy Spirit -- as continual and ONGOING, not STATIC. It is not that God's "rules" are changing. It is that human understanding will always be imperfect. But with the help of the Holy Spirit, we -- even the Church -- can change. This is an important difference between Catholics and some fundamentalists, who hold up their preferred English translation of the Bible -- and their interpretations of its meaning -- as God's literal, unchanging, truth.

By the way, your thinking here is a perfect example of "damned if you do, damned if you don't." You've heard of Vatican II, but you don't know what the Church teaches, since you no longer attend. But first you condemn the Church for views that it hasn't preached for fifty years (and even then, were actively preached by a minority of pastors). Then, when it's pointed out that you're wrong, you blame the church for having had the presumption to change!

I'd tell you to make up your mind, but it's clear you already have. You'd rather hang on to your bitterness.

[Peace Patriot]

86. Yes, I was taught that Protestants and all non-Catholic persons (unbaptized

in the "one and only true Church") would go to Hell, including little babies--and I was taught this in Catholic schools in CALIFORNIA. 1950s-early 1960s.

The ecumenical movement, led by Pope John XXIII, significantly altered this teaching, and it is not prevalent now, except in rightwing enclaves.

But there is an even bigger issue that I've brought up before in these threads, with regard to politicians being given a religious litmus test, and it is the Church's treatment of women as second class citizens.

The Pope just prior to this one said that women cannot be priests because we don't physically resemble Jesus (i.e., don't have pricks). Women are banned from all positions of power in the Catholic Church--pope, bishop, priest--and we are only one generation away from an era in which women were considered too "unclean" to step onto the altar. The Church is run like a Boys' Club, with infantile bigotry against women--while these grown-up men swish around in their robes, and when they say Mass, their lacy, gold-trimmed garments, performing their fetishistic transformation of bread and wine into "body and blood." It is, truly, a sick institution--desperately in need of reform. And far worse than their pretense of speaking for God, and asserting that they are the "one and only true Church," and their banishment of everyone else to Hell (buried but not forgotten, since Pope John), is their abiding, unbendable hatred of women, and extraordinarily sexist--not to mention hypocritical--"doctrines" about sexual behavior and birth control.

Should we NOT vote for John Kerry or other politicians who attend this Church, because of these offensive, bigoted Church policies on women?

That is ridiculous. Why? Because it is an insult to John Kerry and other politicians who are Catholics--as if they don't have minds of their own, as if they can't sort out public policy from religious policy.

This controversy about Rev. Wright is an INSULT to Barack Obama--and, as such, it is connected to lingering racial bigotry. JFK put the issue of Catholics running for president--and "being run by the Pope"--forever to rest, in his 1960 campaign for president. He confronted it head on--and gave a major speech about the separation of church and state to the BAPTIST convention in Texas. Anti-Catholic bigotry was rampant in that campaign--fomented by what was then considered the rightwing fringe (who now run our government). I know. I volunteered for that JFK campaign (at age 16), and saw the foul pamphlets that were circulated about JFK and the Pope. It was a virulent prejudice. But we overcame it.

So, too, must we overcome racial prejudice that is raising the unspoken specter of Barack Obama somehow being a tool of a black jihad against America--just as the "rightwing fringe" of my young days raised the specter of Catholic Popes dictating U.S. policy.

1. When the Rev. Wright said, "God damn America," he wasn't really wishing harm to his country. He lives here. He IS an American. He was expressing a sentiment put more eloquently by Albert Camus, in "Resistance, Rebellion and Death":

"I should like to be able to love my country and still love justice. I don't want just any greatness for it, particularly a greatness born of blood and falsehood. I want to keep it alive by keeping justice alive." --Albert Camus

Should he be blamed for his inelegant way of putting it? Truly, "God damn America" is a sentiment that springs to my own mind, when I see photos of Iraqi children blown to bits--1.2 million innocent people slaughtered in that war. That is not my America. It makes me sick. It makes me want to burn the flag that the Bush Junta has wrapped itself in, to commit these and other atrocities. Do I want to harm my country? I do not. I want to change it. And why is Rev. Wright--a man who has performed good works, helping the poor, all his life, not being given the benefit of the doubt on this? In my opinion, it is racist--connected to boogieman fear of black Americans.


2. In any case, what does it matter what Rev. Wright said? Barack Obama bears no more responsibility for Rev. Wright's sermons than John Kerry bears for the Catholic Church's 2,000 year jihad against women, or the recent Pope's brutal insult that we don't "resemble" Jesus. It is NOBODY'S BUSINESS what Church a politician attends. It doesn't tell us what he or she thinks. It doesn't tell us why he or she is a member of that religion, or an attendee at its services. It tells us nothing about that person as a public servant. And it is extremely inappropriate--bordering on illegal, a violation of the spirit of the "Bill of Rights" in our Constitution--to subject a political candidate to a religious test, and to blame him or her for the statements of religious leaders. It is no more acceptable than the anti-Catholic pamphlets against JFK in 1960.

[Submariner]

93. Ditto

I harbor the same feelings and observations about the church that you so eloquently outline.

Parochial school was a rotten experience for me and my classmates. I moved on to the Navy with the Vietnam draft closing in on me. Years later I was surprised to hear that some of the class "pets", the ones whose we thought would go on to become priests and nuns, and the ones whose parents would shuttle the nuns and priests around town (because they didn't drive), had moved on to heroin overdoses, and a couple of suicides.

My younger sister is still dealing with the physical beatings from the nuns at Matignon High School that drew blood.

Let's face it, the priesthood is nothing but an exclusionary men's club composed of the class introverts, the boys that did not run with the rest of the kids on the block, the class sissies with little outside exposure to the real world. They basically have, or had in my day, absolutely no life experiences that qualify them to lead or teach children anything about reality. They operate in a world of make believe sky-people and assorted myths and legends.

My ex-wife had the unfortunate experience of attending and all-girls catholic high school in greater Boston. I believe her ultra-religious mother felt keeping her away from boys was the right thing to do. I detest what they did to her, making her feel very shy and shameful about having sex, which weakened our marriage until it fell apart. Because I had similar training, I had no ability, like my wife, to discuss sex with her so we could try and work through our problems. I love her and miss her terribly still 28 years later, but we got lockjaw when it came to discussing our love life.

My only satisfaction now is watching each parish close, one-by-one-by-one, as the catholic church pursues it's trek to eventual obscurity. Instead of using the collection plate money for good deeds, we have come to find out that much of it has been spent on motels where little boys and girls were taken to be raped, or in multi-million dollar out of court settlements to continue the cover-up their evil atrocities. The class introvert, the sissie, turns out to be a child raping priest.

[cottonseed]

96. Religion: if you're in you go to Heaven, otherwise, you burn.

That's the way I've ever seen it. The right wing better watch their asses, because if it becomes acceptable to flip through ever word of every sermon in a church, elections from now on will get real ugly for them. Even Huckabee seemed to understand that.

Oh, I do like the fact that you can come in late in life and get yourself out of Hell though.