The Great State of Michigan thinks Campaign Obama owes us some amends.

[Tyler Durden]

Michigan will not get its chance to have a voice in the Primary Campaign. Democratic leaders from both campaigns are already expressing fears about how Michigan will vote in November. THIS is WHY:


http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN1823854920080318?virtualBrandChannel=10150
(snip)
Opposition from lawmakers backing Illinois Sen. Barack Obama's campaign seemed certain to scuttle any proposal to hold a June 3 "do-over" Democratic primary in the Midwestern state.

"There are definitely not enough votes now to support the proposal," said Callie Collins, a spokeswoman for state Sen. Tupac Hunter, co-chairman of Obama's campaign in Michigan.
(snip)

Note WHOSE campaign scuttled the deal. "...not enough votes..." meant they would not vote to have the primary over UNLESS it was wide open, allowing Republicans to vote in the Democratic Primary redo.

Now, the Michigan House is in recess, and the point is moot. AND the citizens of Michigan are REALLY PISSED OFF. Angry people don't think clearly.

My contention is that Campaign Obama, if they want the state of Michigan in November (and I seem to remember something about a "50 State Strategy?") then perhaps their candidate ought to get off his ASS and start making some amends.

This isn't New Hamshire. It isn't even North Carolina. Obama, if he gets the nod, NEEDS Michigan, which could be 2008's Ohio if he doesn't DO something.

Now we are talking about a Presidential Candidate. This isn't JESUS. It isn't even JOSHUA. It's Barack Obama, a freshman Senator from Illinois, and to paraphrase the late Lloyd Bentsen, he isn't JFK or RFK either. But he sure could end up like George McGovern or Jimmy Carter.

Time for his supporters to be honest with themselves. YOU may think he's the second coming, but you're the ONLY ONES who think so, and you're not the majority of voters in this country. Hillary Clinton has a HUGE following as well. Or hadn't you noticed the delegate count having about 7% difference between the two? In fact, if they counted Michigan and Florida according to the vote with Clinton getting all she won in Michigan/Obama the rest and the same with Florida, it would be even closer. THEY aren't too happy with Obama. And you can't win without them. So let's start thinking REASONABLY here.

IF Senator Obama gets the "nod," then he NEEDS Michigan if he wants to get elected. Anyone thinking differently is kidding themselves, so what's he going to DO to get Michigan on his side?

I'm curious. Are you?

By the way, keep your "Praise Barack!" to yourselves. You won't convince me or any other non-Obama supporter with that nonsense. Believe what you want, but to quote "The Usual Suspects":

CONVINCE ME.

[marmar]

1. But you've also got to realize that you don't speak for all Michiganians.....

Half the Dem voters voted uncommitted in the primary, with Clinton and Kucinich as the only names on the ballot. That says something.

[rug]

6. Michiganian? I thought it was Michigander.

[marmar]

8. I don't like the waterfowl nickname....Most people say Michigander...I cling to Michiganian.

Tom-ay-to, To-mah-to.

[Capn Sunshine]

37. deleted

[marmar]

42. That's your litmus test on who is or isn't from Michigan?

As I'm writing this to you from my apartment about a mile east of Great Lakes Crossing, staring at my Eastern Michigan University pennant.
And what "strategy room" are you talking about? Are you implying that I'm a Clinton supporter? If so, :wtf:

[Barack_America]

83. Marmar, we're from the same neck of the woods.

But I'm a "Michigander". ;)

[marmar]

85. I know I'm in the minority, BUT I WILL NOT BE CALLED A WATERFOWL!

:) :hi:

[apocalypsehow]

96. What's your take on your avatar's theory of the conversion of surplus value into capital?

n/t.

[rug]

126. It's peachy.

[apocalypsehow]

127. Uh-huh. Taking what he called the laws of commodity production, he postulated the following:

1. The product belongs to the capitalist, not to the worker.

2. The value of the product has a surplus value (over and above the value of the capital itself), which actually costs the worker, but costs the businessman nothing.

3. The worker has "reproduced," so to speak, his ability to work which he is free to sell again provided someone is around (i.e., another businessman) to purchase it.

This was the first phase of his analysis, which he called "Transition of the Laws of Property that characterize Production of Commodities into Laws of Capitalist Appropriation." Whew! A mouthful I know.

There were four others. Why don't you be so kind and fill us in on #2? Thanks.

[rug]

129. Sure, as soon as you tell me what this has to do with Michigan.

(BTW, he didn't say the product belongs to the capitalist. He said it's stolen from the worker.)

[apocalypsehow]

130. Google must have run off and left Professor Rug in the lurch. Too bad, so sad.

(BTW, he said no such thing. He said it belonged to the capitalist by virtue of its expropriation from the worker, which is a distinction with several very important differences over and above the simplistic notion of theft.)

[rug]

134. What is the distinction between an ill-informed pedant and you?

[Recursion]

177. This reminds me of that Monty Python sketch

Q: The development of the industrial proletariat is conditioned by what other development?

A: The development of the industrial bourgeoisie

Q: Good, you're well on your way to that lounge suite. The struggle of class against class is a what struggle?

A: A political struggle

Q: And, for the prize, who won the English football cup in 1949?

[rug]

191. Lol.

[virtualobserver]

9. its your way or the highway

I would be more than happy to support a completely open primary.

But anyway,We didn't vote for a primary date in violation of DNC rules.
Blame your elected officials, you elected them.

[marmar]

11. I'm assuming you didn't intend to post this to my post?

:shrug:

[virtualobserver]

14. sorry about that

n/t

[Tyler Durden]

30. Why don't I let you talk to the two pissed off phone workers I just talked too?

Two I.T. Phone types. They are all pissed off that the redo isn't happening, and they told ME that Campaign Obama was to blame for ditching the deal from Sunday last.

Our net is being worked on, and I had nothing to do, so I talked to them.

[marmar]

34. I'm sure they are....but it's a whole different story in Detroit.

Where a revote would be viewed with a lot of skepticism.

[Tyler Durden]

104. Detroit has the worst voting percentage of any big city in the country.

Also, you just discounted Flint, Pontiac, Lansing, Hamtramack...

Not a good thing, trust me.

[marmar]

116. Same story in Flint and Pontiac, I can guarantee that.

But honestly, I think your anger is misplaced. It's the state Party that made the boneheaded move in the first place.

[Tyler Durden]

141. Why don't you suggest something constructive?

Your "blame your local party leaders" is going to go over like a turd in a punchbowl here in Michigan. Your campaign better start making friends. Instead, you're convincing people you don't need Michigan: NOT very sharp.

[marmar]

151. First off, I'm not even an Obama supporter......

Secondly, most of the people I talk to are upset with either the state party for making the rash move, or, to a lesser extent, with the DNC for invalidating the delegates. I don't know if you're in a small, provincial part of the state, but it's very different here where most of the state's Democrats actually live.

[Tyler Durden]

157. Go to FLINT. Go to LANSING. Go to PONTIAC.

WORKERS (and I'm in a manufacturing plant) feel this is just another Democratic Party screw job (exact words I heard this morning).

I think if you want to lose Michigan over "THE RULES" when NH and IA just got a patty slap and no penalties for moving THEIR primaries AND STILL GOING FIRST, you've got one hell of a good start on it. These Working Class Democrats don't care about the DNC, and they just care about hearing that the Chairman of the Michigan Obama Campaign got their primary taken away, which is the way they see it.

[marmar]

158. I'm in Flint every few days...and live next door to Pontiac.

... and know lots of those WORKERS, so please don't try to speak as the Voice of Michigan. And I don't really want to get into some circuitous pissing match with you - I really respect a lot of your posts and all of this hostility seems really out of character.
And as someone from Michigan, yeah, having our votes neutered absolutely sucks, but trying to change the rules toward the end of the game because you're losing (not you but the Clinton campaign) looks very unfair, very un-Democratic in a hard-working state, and that's the reaction I hear most often.

[Tyler Durden]

164. We must agree to disagree, but you aren't the voice of Michigan either.

I have connections to many worker communities, and I hope you take this to heart: Campaign Obama had better show up here and promise the moon and stars, or else there will likely be a red result here in November.

Don't let your allegiance to Obama blind you: This is a situation that needs attention, and personally, I think the same thing can be said for the Obama Campaign: HRC won here, and if the vote was held again, she'd win AGAIN. And THAT my friend is gaming the system.

[marmar]

168. Never claimed to be. And let me state again - I'm NOT AN OBAMA SUPPORTER!

I'm an Al Gore supporter who will vote for the DEM nominee. And no, I'm no Clinton fan, but I'll support her. And I agree, he better show up here. And honestly, I think he knows that better than anyone.

[Tyler Durden]

169. And THAT was the point of this OP.

The primary is DEAD, locals hold OBAMA responsible, and he'd better do something about it, and the "Work together" Platitudes won't do it.

In a HURRY.

[roguevalley]

131. People in Michigan on the news last night said that Hillary coming

to Michigan and hoping that would spur the powers that be to do something feel it actually scuttled things. THey were then put into the position of looking like they were playing favoritism by making it happen because of her. She shot herself in the ass on this one. It might have happened but for her going there and trying to intimidate something into action.

TOugh luck. She is the one who put stops to the possible outcome.

[LulaMay]

2. Hillary has tried to avert this diasaster from DAY 1. Obama can't fix what he's done.

[Usrename]

33. hahaha

she wants a do-over that doesn't let everyone participate

:rofl:

since DAY 1

[JVS]

58. seriously though, what does she want?

[Window]

72. What????

[dchill]

114. Oh yeah?

"It's clear: This election they're having is not going to count for anything. I personally did not think it made any difference whether or not my name was on the ballot," she said.

Day 1 my ass.

[Vinca]

3. You're blaming the wrong party. Number 1 to blame is your own

state's Democratic leadership. They broke the DNC rules. Number 2 to blame is your state party again. They can hold another election anyway. I've never heard of an instance when a state needed a candidate's permission to hold an election. Number 3 to blame is Hillary Clinton who chose to trash Obama in the media over the revote rather than discuss the issue with him and find a solution. Obama wasn't opposed, but he wasn't going to agree with the election Hillary and her wealthy supporters were planning to hold which was designed solely for her benefit.

[Tyler Durden]

44. Just keep saying that.

Should work just fine.

As to the particulars, try REUTERS, or better yet, follow the link in the OP. Campaign Obama AGREED on Sunday and trashed it on Tuesday.

That's the news from Michigan, but you do what you want.

[dchill]

115. U R Full of it.

Campaign Obama <> Michigan Elected Dems who support Obama.

Not the same thing.

[DJ13]

4. Lookey what bad man did!

Obama always stated he was open to any deal the states and the DNC could put together for a revote as long as it was fair to both campaigns.

Even repeated that (for the 100th time) last night with Anderson Cooper.

[madfloridian]

5. I have always said the two states were being used in a tactical way....

by the Clinton campaign. Now that the two bully states did not get their ways....they are blaming Obama. Ain't gonna fly.

[Tyler Durden]

45. You don't live here.

And you're going on gut. Read the news. I suggest REUTERS.

But hey, delusion works too.

[madfloridian]

98. Both states allowed themselves to be used as tools.....

We all know it. It is exactly what they did.

[anigbrowl]

7. Try reading more than one article

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20080320/D8VHA6K00.html

"Democratic leaders in Michigan have said DNC rules require them to bar those who voted in the Republican primary from casting ballots in a do-over primary. But DNC spokswoman Stacie Paxton said Thursday that the party would consider waiving the rule because of Michigan's unique situation if the state requested it.

Dodd kept his name on the Michigan ballot along with Clinton. At the time, his campaign spokesman said pulling names would be a slight to Michigan voters that could hurt the eventual nominee.

Dodd said in his statement Monday that even though he left his name on the ballot, it's clear that the results of the Jan. 15 primary should not be used to apportion delegates."

It was an open primary to begin with. If you're going to hold a do-over, then it would make sense to have the same rules apply. It's reasonable to conclude that at least some Democratic voters switched their attention to the Republican primary election, since everyone from Hillary Clinton on down was saying Michigan didn't count.

I've said before that a logical thing to do would be to give Clinton her delegates and give the undecided ones to Obama, and do the same in Florida.

[Tyler Durden]

49. Hey, just keep it up!

You guys are not listening. And quoting someone's blog is silly, especially one slanted toward Obama.

Hey you can be in denial as long as you want. But I want a Democratic win in Michigan, so I'm hoping for HRC at this point, because Michigan Campaign Obama came off looking like the spoilers here.

[anigbrowl]

53. You're lying: I didn't quote a blog, I quoted the Associated Press

Why not address the fact I quoted in the article, that the DNC is willing to waive the normal rules and allow an open do-over primary so tht the vote is conducted on the same basis as the first one?

[Tyler Durden]

59. NO you quoted "My way" from an AP "contributor, not the AP wire.

Sorry.

[Tyler Durden]

60. Oh and calling me a LIAR. GREAT way to win friends and influence voters.

[TheWraith]

90. That's what you do when people are lying. nt

[Tyler Durden]

93. Fight your own battles.

Ignore.

[David Dunham]

10. Obama's henchmen blocked the revote. What undemocratic thugs!

[olkaz]

12. Look, Both Sides, Listen Up

I've been arguing with Tyler Durden the past day or so. As incendiary as his posts are, he's not wrong in saying that many people in Michigan are pissed off. I believe him.

Now instead of everybody pointing fingers (what's done is done), let's figure out how we're going to keep Michigan on board for the general.

[Texas Hill Country]

18. petition Obama camp to let them vote

[olkaz]

25. This thing is over. That's not the solution.

If Michigan wanted this thing to happen, they wouldn't have gone into recess. Recess isn't required by law. They didn't want to do it. Period.

Now, how do we get these disaffected Michigan folks back on board for the general?

[TheWraith]

86. It's not the Obama campaign's decision. Any anyone who says it is is lying.

The decision whether or not to have a revote lies with the Michigan state senate and state Dem party, who are unwilling to accept a caucus and unable to pay the tab for a primary.

[Laelth]

57. And as I asked Tyler Durden ...

What would you have Obama do?

There's absolutely nothing he can do. As such, Tyler Durden's post is a relatively-useless rant.

Even if "Obama's supporters" in the Mich. legislature blocked the re-vote, Obama doesn't control them. They're elected officials. They can do what they want. It's not fair to blame Obama for the acts of other elected officials. He simply can not control them.

Rant away, but unless you have a concrete solution, all you're doing is ranting.

-Laelth

[Tyler Durden]

62. It's up to Campaign Obama to make amends.

You're the supporters. Why don't YOU suggest some things he should do?

Jobs programs would be nice.
Green Power initiatives (got a lot of lake frontage for windmills)

Do I have to do the work for you? Or is sticking their foot in the shit all Campaign Obama can do about this? Why aren't you writing THEM?

[TheWraith]

88. How about we compromise, and you simply stop lying to people.

The Obama campaign had nothing to do with the state senate's decision not to proceed with any of the proposed plans. That was their call. Complain to your state senators.

[dembotoz]

13. don't blame obama blame the fool who got into a pissing war with the dnc

who ever decided the rules that the dnc applied to everyone else did not apply to michigan is to blame.

We always tell our children not to put a screwdriver in a wall outlet.
seems the word did not get out in Michigan
No wonder the detroit lions suck

[Jai4WKC08]

137. Then let's let the dnc rules apply to everyone equally

Iowa, NH and SC delegates will not be seated either. They all broke the rules.

The DNC has no authority to tell a state when they can have a primary anyway. They don't make laws or appropriate money. Legislatures do.

[dembotoz]

188. so the national party should have no control over their own primary sytems? Thats silly

[Jai4WKC08]

217. I didn't say no control

I just said it's a state legislature's responsibility to schedule and pay for elections, which has historically included primaries.

I also asked why the rules aren't being enforced for IA, NH and SC.

[OzarkDem]

15. Yep, he killed their efforts to get a vote

and his supporters think he will care about what happens to average Americans if he is elected president? This is one more example of how Obama only works for Obama, no one else.

Sorry, but I don't want a self-centered, inexperienced egomaniac in the WH. We've had one for over 7 years now, thanks.

[olkaz]

24. Keep on framing.

I'd take the time, but I'm tired of this subject.

They knowingly broke the rules. They were told they'd lose their delegates. They had a long time to fix it, they didn't. The Michigan senate didn't have to go into recess if this was really important to them. The solution was far too flawed to serve as an election. I could keep going, but it won't matter. Obama = bad, right?

[OzarkDem]

28. Who says the solution was flawed?

Is Obama the final authority on this issue? I don't think so.

[olkaz]

36. The Michigan leadership is the final authority, and they went into recess.

The solution is flawed because of this:

The Democratic voters were told that their votes would not count. Even as far back as August and earlier. So, when it came to primary time, they figured, hell, I may as well screw with the Republicans. There were calls for this in the blogosphere and on the radio. I can't remember who they were told to vote for, but whatever it's irrelevent now.

So now, all those folks who thought they were at least accomplishing something by voting (screwing up Republicans, or picking the best of the worst), by these new rules, couldn't vote at all. That's not a fair election.

Of course, there was also the fact the the new election would be a privately funded rushjob (which screams fairness).

So anyway, it was a huge cluster, caused by Michigan's leadership, and at this point it is utterly pointless to debate it.

But we will.

[Usrename]

41. Why did they insist on changing the rules for any do-over?

Why was it so important to change it from an open primary to a closed primary?

Why would anyone want to do something like that? Do you think they wanted to do that to empower the voters?

[Tyler Durden]

63. Because then EVERY REPBULICAN could re-vote.

Sound like a good idea to YOU?

[Usrename]

78. What's the problem?

They always could have voted in the Dem primary. This isn't something new.

[Tyler Durden]

92. Not when there was a REPUBLICAN primary at the same time.

Now all of them can vote in our primary.

Are you sure you understand this?

[Usrename]

100. All of them could have voted in our primary then, too.

What are you afraid of?

[Tyler Durden]

142. They had a REAL PRIMARY.

Not exactly a phony one.

Why do you want Republicans to vote in a Democratic Primary, and why are you allergic to fixing this? Again, you're convincing Michigan that you don't need us. That's not a good thing.

[Usrename]

145. It was a straw poll.

Everyone was told it was a straw poll. Everyone was told it would not count.

It was NOT a real primary. At the time it occurred, it was a straw poll, with no effect on the nomination.

[Tyler Durden]

147. Are they counting the delegates?

Then it was a primary.

You still didn't answer. Do you want the entire Republican base of any given state eligible to vote in a redo of a Democratic Party Primary?

Simple Question.

One other thing: I believe in scrupulous honesty; I know it's not in fashion, but that's not my problem. I believe if I stand up at a polling place and say "Give me a Republican Primary Ballot" then I am a LIAR. That's not what I teach my children, to lie and game the system, and I sincerely hope it's not what you teach yours. So if someone "games" the system, I have no sympathy for them.

[Usrename]

166. A third of the folks aren't registered with any party.

Seems to me like they would vote for who they liked best, out of the choices that they had available.

But you know more than those folks. For you it's just fine to lie to them and trick them, then brag about your scrupulous honesty.

[Tyler Durden]

170. Ignored.

I am ignoring personal attacks from now on.

[Usrename]

174. Personal attack? Really? How so?

[Tyler Durden]

175. And what part of Ignored didn't you understand?

[Hepburn]

125. He has NO authority at all...

...and that is the point. He has NO power, NO jurisdiction, NO say-so over what the MI legislature did or what it does.

Why in the hell are you so ill-informed that you think some US Senator running for a federal office and not a resident of the state has ANY ability to do ANYTHING? In fact, he has NO right to meddle ~~ as Hillary has been doing. State politics belong to the particular state ~~ and NOT to Hillary or Obama.

[Tyler Durden]

35. No, Michigan Campaign Obama = not aware of the damage they did.

Say whatever you want. This is a problem. I'd suggest you fix it. If your solution is "Bad Michigan brokey RULES that NH gets firsties" then I'd say the problem is YOURS, and if you want a Democratic victory in the fall, PRAY for HRC, because unless something else happens, it looks dim for Barack in Michigan.

[olkaz]

51. Look man, I tried.

There is no solution that includes a revote for Michigan. It's not going to happen. Period. You know that, and you told me that.

I posted here in support of your proposition that something has to be done to keep Michigan from turning disaffected. I'm looking for answers.

But you're not looking for answers. You're looking for a way to give the maximum amount of delegates to Hillary. I won't support that. I'll support a fair, publicly financed, primary or caucus that doesn't exclude Democrats who voted in a primary that didn't matter. Offer that, and I'll support you 100%.

You really make it sound like you're trying to help the voters of Michigan. But you aren't. This is framing in the guise of the right to vote, which is pretty heinous. You'll find no stronger advocate of voting rights than me. But what you're doing is insidious framing to accomplish things for your candidate.

Anyway, I'm done here.

[Tyler Durden]

67. I know that. Now it's your turn. Be done if you want, but you've got letter writing to do.

He's YOUR CANDIDATE. Write him a letter. Make a suggestion.

How about some jobs programs?
How about some Wind Power subsidies?

LIE to us. Tell HIM to tell US how he's going to HELP US. I'm not part of his campaign. THIS IS YOUR JOB.

[olkaz]

79. This is exactly what I was looking for.

And I will start working on it tonight.

Thanks. No matter who is our candidate in the general, I hope we can get a Democratic president. I'll bust my butt for Hillary if it's her.

(Just FYI, Obama was my third choice.)

[Tyler Durden]

97. THIS is what we need here: COOPERATION.

Seems that some on this thread keep missing that I want a DEMOCRATIC WIN in Michigan in November. Thanks for "getting it."

I'm just carrying the message: there are pissed off people here in Michigan right now, and most of what I got in response HERE was "Why are you pissed off? This is all your fault!" which doesn't do anything but piss off more people.

[MadHound]

155. Have you ever thought that rather than pissing and moaning and pointing the finger at everybody

You should take a look at your own state party, see the massive faults with it, and take it back over for the people in order to fix those problems? You're wanting Obama to try and correct something that he had no hand in creating, something that he can't correct. OK, you're wanting some sort compensation, job programs, etc. Well, frankly given MI's abysmal economic situation, I think that you would get it anyway during the general. But trying to hold Obama hostage to these demands, over something you and your state party fucked up is simply wrong.

You're state created this problem, your state is still and obstacle in this problem, it is up to your state party to fix this problem. Demanding that one candidate try and fix this problem, or blaming that candidate for this problem is simply wrong.

You don't like the fix you're in, then it is up to you and your fellow state members to fix it.

And why are you blaming Obama for this, not Hillary? As many have told you, Obama is willing to have a revote or other solution that is fair. So far you're trying to pin this on Obama, and holding Hillary blameless, when the truth of the matter is that neither is to blame. Stop being such a partisan, and fix the problems in your state party, after all, it is only you and your fellow Democrats in MI who can fix this problem.

[boston bean]

128. .

good to see you!

:hi:

[Why Syzygy]

16. I cannot believe adults are still discussing this. The rules were broken. LIVE WITH IT and don't

break them again! Quit yer whiney nagging shit already.
You sound like your queen bitch.

[Tyler Durden]

32. You can talk nasty all you want.

Do you and Campaign Obama want Michigan? If yes, I'd suggest you get to WORK, and quit throwing your shit.

There was a Deal on Sunday. Campaign Obama figured out on Tuesday they didn't like it, and scuttled the deal. That's the reality, and if you don't want Michigan, keep up the shit. Not very smart though.

[Why Syzygy]

38. I do not want Michigan. I want the rules followed.

We have had enough rule breaking in the past 8 years. I am not interested in going for another president who wants to break rules.

That is all.

[Tyler Durden]

52. You mean like one who told his supporters to vote in the REPUBLICAN Primary?

May not break the rules, but sure is a LIE.

I've had it with liars.

[Usrename]

46. There was no deal. You're making up more stuff now.

You should learn how to come to grips with reality. This stuff you are saying is all make-believe.

[Tyler Durden]

54. Try the link.

Delusion can be treated.

But do what you want. Obama better not need Michigan, though. The two guys I talked to are doing a write in now, if Obama gets it.

You don't live here, do you?

[Usrename]

75. It never happened.

You have some fantasy playing in your head that there was a deal. You are just plain wrong.

[Tyler Durden]

81. ...

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN182385...
(snip)
Opposition from lawmakers backing Illinois Sen. Barack Obama's campaign seemed certain to scuttle any proposal to hold a June 3 "do-over" Democratic primary in the Midwestern state.

"There are definitely not enough votes now to support the proposal," said Callie Collins, a spokeswoman for state Sen. Tupac Hunter, co-chairman of Obama's campaign in Michigan.
(snip)

[mmonk]

17. I don't respond to the insults through any comment on the issue.

[Tyler Durden]

39. Then obviously you can't read.

No "insults" were thrown. YOU have a problem here in Michigan. Don't want Michigan? Then don't do ANYTHING.

[Cha]

19. Sorry, as usual you

got it all wrong. When are you going to study and learn something?

[blogslut]

20. Praise Barack!

I can't resist when people tell me not to say something :)

[Tyler Durden]

40. Suit yourself.

This is looking pretty serious here. Everything local doesn't sound very good.

You don't actually think I WANT McCain, do you? But we'll be stuck with him if this is the sort of nonsense that Campaign Obama is going to stick with. Time for amends, but hey, I just live here.

[blogslut]

48. meh

We got 8 months. I'm not worried at all. :)

[JVS]

21. 2 points: you don't speak for Michigan, and waaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh

[EFerrari]

22. Tyler, maybe you could convince yourself if you read the whole piece. n/t

[GigiMommy]

23. I won't try to convince you.

However, I would like to point out that it was the MDP (Michigan Democratic Party) that STARTED this MESS in the first place. See http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070613/POLITICS01/706130413/1022/politics http://george.loper.org/~george/archives/2008/Jan/893.htmlI would also like to point out that most of the candidates signed a pledge NOT to campaign here. Michigan was being punished. See http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/us/politics/02dems.html?ref=politics

Now, I don't know where you live but I live in Michigan. I AM ROYALLY P****D that we the people weren't listened to. MDP Chair Mark Brewer went around the state to hear from the people about this and get their assessment. I attended one of those meetings. PEOPLE WANTED THEIR VOTES TO COUNT! People DID NOT WANT the date changed. I DIDN'T GET TO VOTE FOR WHOM I WANTED TO (Edwards). Now those responsible: Debbie Dingell, Sen. Carl Levin, Gov. Jennifer Granholm, they are Hillary Supporters. THEY are the ones who messed this up. And I got to tell you, people around here know that and they are going to remember this. So you can talk about Obama all you want, but he didn't start this mess. I blame the MDP. I blame Dingell, Granholm and Levin. They played around with our votes. They broke the rules. Clinton can't just come in and change it.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

26. Obama is not very politically savvy ....he has much to learn

[Usrename]

50. hahaha

that's too funny

:rofl:

he's crushed the Clinton machine, out of nowhere, but he is not very politically savvy

:rofl:

[Tyler Durden]

70. Let's see....

If Michigan and Florida were counted, the delegate count would be damned close to 50/50.

WAY TO CRUSH 'EM TEAM OBAMA.

It's way past time you realized that you have HALF of the vote at this time, and that's HALF of the DEMOCRATIC VOTE. You've spent so much time pissing on the other side's CHOICE, You may not be able to pull it off anyway, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't TRY.

Hell. Maybe HRC will still get it. Then Michigan wouldn't be a problem, because CLINTON didn't screw up the deal.

[WVRevy]

27. The campaign doesn't owe you a damn thing.

You shot yourself in the foot, now you're bitching that Obama won't excuse your idiocy and let you have another bullet?

Your GOVERNOR screwed up your process by insisting that the results be counted as they stood (big surprise...who's she supporting again?).

Quit trying to shift blame for YOUR fuckup onto everyone but yourself.

[Tyler Durden]

73. GEE kids, THAT works.

Remind me to send you a copy of "How to make friends and influence the voters who supported the OTHER GUY." You obviously need a copy.

But then, if Obama IS the second coming, then I guess he doesn't need the CLINTON Supporters, Michigan, etc.

That might even be entertaining.

The more you BLAME, the more you need to make amends.

[madfloridian]

29. MI and FL will get a win for Hillary or destroy the party completely.

They don't mind lying and manipulating to get their way.

[Tyler Durden]

99. We just wanted a primary.

Not our fault that NH and IA got a patty slap for moving up theirs while we got "the death penalty."

We don't look on ANY of this is as fair, and we also think there's plenty of blame to go around.

And we're tired of being told "It's all your fault." WE are the VOTERS. It's not OUR fault.

[madfloridian]

118. Stop it. It is so childish and whiny.

Get rid of your state leaders who made this mess happen. They met with and worked with FL to do it.

They are both tools for the Hillary campaign.

If this stuff continues, there will be hell to pay in Nov. with FL, MI, and Hillary to blame.

[Tyler Durden]

140. Half of the problem is people like you.

The primacy of your messiah makes you want to disenfranchise people because of your interpretation of "The Rules." You can't even address this issue without YOUR whining about "HILLARYHILLARYHILLARY." This problem predates any voting.

You know what? Every time you minimize someone else's issues, it makes them dig in their heels. It's called "human nature." I'd suggest you get on with some cooperation on this issue, or is it just such nonsense because your man got beat in your state?

[Kokonoe]

31. Everything you said is right,

But remember Obama does know what hes doing, and you can trust him. Here is why.

Clinton is projecting her negatives onto Obama right now.(He is losing)

Clinton will win Pennsylvania and claim proof that obama cannot win.

Obama will not give MI or FL another vote before Pennsylvania under Hillary's terms while she is losing.

Michigan has until june,(Time is worth more than money, and it always wins)

Obama wants a caucus, which I believe was rejected by Clinton at the beginning,(I think a caucus needs to come together to shake hands, and maybe a hug).

[Tyler Durden]

76. Michigan will not have a primary or a caucus.

The deadline was noon today, thanks to our REPUBLICAN Senate. They think Obama did them a FAVOR. You should hear them talk.

[Justitia]

43. Sorry, the MI State Legislature did this to THEMSELVES. Work to get new reps. -eom

[Tyler Durden]

56. Yep. That sure works. NOT.

Bad Michigan. Barack SPANK.

You folks are really making me question how smart it is to even SUGGEST that Obama try and win us back. Obviously his SUPPORTERS attitude is fuck you.

So be it.

[Justitia]

64. Who said anything about Obama? YOUR own lege screwed you over & you're too lazy to work to unseat

them.
Its simply easier to blame your own in-house problem on someone else, rather than campaign to replace the morons who created the clusterfuck in the first place.

So again, sorry, it's YOUR legislature and YOUR state party that did this to you - NO ONE ELSE.

Suck it up and get to work, or quit bitching.

[Tyler Durden]

101. You really don't want Michigan to vote Democratic in the fall, do you?

We just spent 20 years getting a Democratic governor and House. The Republican Senate can't be fixed and THEY helped make the problem.

Keep blaming us voters. That'll work; sort of like telling the guys rowing on the other side of the boat what assholes they are.

[Justitia]

111. Oh brother, you are SO barking up the wrong tree. I'm in TEXAS & I never stop working to change my

state's political landscape.

I could give up and say "Screw this, its Texas, we're run by Republicans - boo hoo", but then I wouldn't be seeing the progressive, Democratic trends that are happening here now.

Change begins at the very lowest, un-sexy levels and it's A LOT OF FREAKING HARD WORK.

But, I suspect this has NOTHING to do with changing your leadership (who got you into this mess), but everything to do with taking potshots at your political opponent, so I'll save my grassroots training stump speech for someone who cares.

Bottom line, if you are going to bitch about your primary status, look intelligent enough to know where to file your complaints (i.e., the actual culprits).

[Tyler Durden]

144. I've worked my ass off, run for office, knocked on doors...

And I have NEVER said "Screw it." It took us 20 years of hard work to get a Democratic Governor and House; now I should say "What assholes! Kick 'em out"?

You know what? I AGREE with them. SCREW the DNC and their rules letting two meaningless states go first, SCREW Iowa for taking out TWO of our proposed subsidized Ethanol facilities, and SCREW New Hampshire for THEIR whiney "ME FIRST" bullshit.

Oh yeah, and screw you too. WE will remember who messed up the deal, WE will remember which candidate they represented, and WE had better get some payback from him if he gets the nod. Michigan is really TIRED of the rest of the states treating us like some red headed stepchild. WE ran the economic engine of this country since 1920, and the lack of gratitude and support makes us look like MAYBE you don't have our interests at heart.

I would strongly suggest you do some letter writing to your campaign about jobs programs, green power subsidies and in which state he should talk about them, and fast. I heard another "Why should I bother voting at all? The Democrats don't give a fuck about ME" out on the plant floor this morning. WE have a problem and that includes YOU. I'd suggest WE work on it if you want a Blue Michigan in the fall.

Unless you're so "blinded by the light" that really DON'T give a shit about November if it isn't your candidate. In which case, just keep spewing like you are.

[wileedog]

66. Its been MI and FL's fuck you attitude

that got them into this position in the first place.

Sorry if there is a lack of sympathy among people in "states that don't matter."

[Tyler Durden]

102. You must like McCain.

Keep that up. Enough Democrats in Michigan stay home because they feel betrayed by Obama and you just might get him.

[wileedog]

112. What kind of idiot

gets so mad about not voting that they protest by NOT VOTING?

Baby? Bathwater? Noses spiting faces? Get it?

Look, its a primary, its pretty much decided except for Superdelegate voodoo, a revote would probably add roughly the same delegates to either side in MI. Why is this being treated like a National Disaster? Most of the late voting states rarely EVER cast a meaningful vote in primaries, its already done. Why no tragic outcry for them every 4 years.

And why would you be willing to put McCain in office and probably start a war with Iran just so you can pout about it?

[Tyler Durden]

143. Obviously, you don't live here....

AND you aren't listening. I don't WANT a Republican victory, here or in the national, but you're not busy convincing Michigan that you give two shits about our issue.

That's not very sharp. I don't advise it.

[Laelth]

47. Um, what would you suggest that he do? n/t

:shrug:

-Laelth

[Usrename]

68. How about caucuses?

I would bet that's what he's planning. The nonsense about him disenfranchising voters is all going to get thrown right back in her face.

Michigan had caucuses in 2004, what's the big problem? Oh yeah, that's right, Clinton doesn't want them.

The later they let this go, the less time they have to organize a caucus, the better he will do.

[dsc]

95. the caucuses were a god awful mess

Sharpton lost delegates due to polling places being changed at the last minute and the votes took forever in a day to count.

[Laelth]

135. Here's the problem. Obama can't DO caucuses.

Only the Michigan legislature (with the agreement of the DNC) can DO anything about this mess. Obama is basically powerless. That's why he's not responsible for the mess, either.

-Laelth

[Romulox]

55. It's been extremely sad to watch the party shift away from labor and industrial states

in favor of small Republican states like Iowa, SC, and NH. It's not just that Obama doesn't want Michigan's primary vote to count--he doesn't want to discuss the issues facing industrial states at all for fear of offending cheap-labor "progressives" in the Red states where he has the most support.

Those who think that this shift won't have any further repercussions are delusional.

[RiverStone]

61. Can somebody please clarify why Obama would...

...or his friends in MI...

Not want a re-do? Is that indeed even accurate as the OP implies?

No way in hell Hillary deserves the votes to count without Obama's name on the ballot, but I also think the voters deserve a chance to participate in a legitimate primary.

I'd much appreciate some clarity here.

thanks:)

[Romulox]

65. Obama pulled his name from the ballot because he trailed HRC by 20+ points

He doesn't want a re-vote because he will lose. It's as simple as that.

[tabatha]

69. Oh nonsense.

Obama trailed Clinton by 20 point just about everywhere - but always managed to close the gap.

He is open to a redo, if everyone is allowed to vote.

[Romulox]

74. If no different than if Obama pulled his name from Pa, and then claimed his inevitable loss there

was somehow illegitimate.

[Justitia]

77. Sorry, PA didn't screw the pooch by breaking the rules, MI did. Not the same at all. -eom

[Usrename]

71. Oh, stop!

Obama and Edwards pulled their names from the ballot because they didn't trust the Clintons to keep their word.

And rightly so!

She is completely reneging on her pledge.

(hehe, I said reneging)

[Jai4WKC08]

110. That makes no sense

Let's ignore for a moment that there was no "pledge" or other requirement to take names off the ballot.

Why would Obama and Edwards pull their names if they thought Clinton would NOT pull hers? And if so, why didn't they pull their names from the Florida ballot?

No, the reason they pulled their names is because they knew they weren't going to do well against her as individuals. There was no time to close the gap and they were putting their main efforts into Iowa and NH. But they thought that if they could combine their supporters into a single "not Clinton" vote (and SOMEONE paid for robo-calls encouraging voters to do just that) and beat her with it, they would be able to say, "See? She couldn't even win a majority when there was no one else running!" It would have embarrassed her and made her weaker in the following contests.

[Usrename]

133. They asked, and Florida refused to take their names off the ballot.

If you are a fair-minded person you will consider the polling from Florida, together with South Carolina and Alabama, which bracketed the Florida primary.


Florida Jan 29

South Carolina Jan 26

Alabama Feb 5




Can you see how Obama was honestly put at a disadvantage in Florida when his campaign left the state?

How can a fair-minded person argue that he would be treated fairly if the FL delegates are seated according to a bogus primary?

So, what does that say about the one making exactly that argument?

Of course Obama and Edwards suspected that she would go back on her word on seating the delegates.

She keeps trying to get everyone to go along with her, and count these bogus FL and MI results.

She took a pledge that she would not participate in any contest in FL or MI.

Now, she wants to retroactivly participate and call it a contest. Even though Obama and Edwards took their names off, in order to ensure that there was no mistake about it not being a contest.

She doesn't care about the voters in these states, just their delegates. If she cared at all, about the voters' right to have a voice, then she would allow a caucus exactly like they did four years ago in Michigan.

[Jai4WKC08]

136. Apples and oranges

You can't compare Florida to SC and/or AL. The demographics are completely different. Two of Clinton's strengths have always been older people and latinos, and FL has plenty of both. There's no reason to believe Obama would have surged in FL the way he did in the others.

But even if he would have, it really doesn't matter. The only difference campaigning would have made is giving Obama a chance to put his ground game in place, his GOTV. That he didn't get that chance doesn't make the election unfair. The people of FL had the same information about the candidates as in any other state of the union. The bottom line is, the people who wanted to vote voted for the person they wanted to vote for. What else do you really need for a fair election?

I'm not sure I accept that Obama and Edwards tried to to take their names off the ballot in FL and the state wouldn't let them. I'd like to see some proof of that, and more than just some blogger saying so. And I'd also have to see the date(s) they tried... if they waited until they knew it would be too late, that's sort of the same as not trying. These people know about deadlines.

But doing so wasn't required by any pledge or agreement. If you read Bill Richardson's website, it's pretty clear that he considered the four-state pledge ONLY to prohibit campaigning. From the dialogue I remember at the time, they all did. And Obama was the one to break that pledge, which should let them all off the hook.

Now about my original question. You say, "Of course Obama and Edwards suspected that she would go back on her word on seating the delegates." Well, ok, I suppose you can say "of course" they suspected anything. Anyone can suspect anything, and probably should. But they had no way of knowing one way or the other. In Michigan (the only state this actually pertains to), if they thought she wouldn't take her name off, why would they take theirs off? If you thought there was ANY chance a competitor would stay in a race, would you pull out? Or hang in there and hope to get as many delegates as possible? Remember, back then neither one of them knew how close it would be and who would be in the running.

And why were there robocalls in Michigan telling people to vote "uncommitted"? Who paid for that?

Nope, I think my rationale is MUCH more likely. And backed up by some anonymous sources, altho I suppose those don't confirm it adequately (and no, I don't have a link, just remember reading it, but it's not important since they are anonymous).

But you know, this really isn't about whether it's FAIR to Obama or to Clinton. It's what's fair to the voters of the two states. No pledge made by candidates to each other changed that.

And it's also about whether we can afford to just give over those two states to the Republicans in November. Because if we don't count their votes, that's exactly what we'll be doing.

[Usrename]

138. Wow!

Just wow!

Under FL law if you withdraw from a primary you have to withdraw from the race; you cannot be on the ballot in the general election.

"Although Senator Obama did not remove his name from the Florida Primary ballot because Florida law did not allow him to do so, Senator Obama is firm in his commitment to neither participate nor campaign in the Florida Primary and its outcome has no bearing on the nomination contest."

http://video1.washingtontimes.com/bellantoni/2008/01/clinton_wins_michigan.html

Relevant language from the Four State Pledge:

"THEREFORE, I _______________, Democratic Candidate for President, pledge
I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules a presidential
election primary or caucus before Feb. 5, 2008, except for the states of Iowa,
Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina, as “campaigning” is defined by
rules and regulations of the DNC."

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/070831_Final_Pledge.pdf

But none of what you say is as shocking as the fact that you don't think the voters in FL or MI have any right to have the candidates be allowed to campaign in their states. Granted, the candidates all agreed, but how does that agreement eliminate the rights of the voters?

Wow! Just wow!

What do you think this whole imbroglio is all about?

[Jai4WKC08]

146. You can't be serious

Voters have a RIGHT to have the candidates campaign? So if I run for an office, I HAVE to campaign? The voters have that RIGHT for me to do so?

That's just silly.

It's also pretty silly to use the rightwing moonie paper, The Washington Times, as a source for anything.

What I think "this whole imbroglio is all about" is whether the votes cast in Florida and Michigan will be counted. It's really that simple.

It must be tough for a Democrat to find him/herself having to defend his/her candidate AGAINST simple democracy.

[Usrename]

173. This has nothing to do with defending anyone.

Except to defend people from being cheated.

Your entire argument is idiotic. Why not make the people vote now for the 2012 primary? In your mind that would be fine, everyone would get a vote. Except that it would be idiotic. Why do you think the party goes through all this, scheduling the campaign over an entire season? I would think is the method that they think will lead to the selection of the best candidates. Only you seem to have a problem with the party selecting the best candidate.

Michigan can hold a caucus like they did in 2004. What't the big deal? That's what they did last time. Why isn't it good enough now?

I think I understand. If they did that Hillary wouldn't be able to whine about it any longer. So she put the kabash on it.

And I don't get your point about The Washington Times. Do you think the quote I posted is inaccurate?

Do you have ANY evidence that what I've told you isn't true?

[Jai4WKC08]

216. Who is being cheated except the voters?

And maybe the country, if President McCain is elected because he gets Florida AND Michigan. You like the sound of that?

My argument is not idiotic just because you don't understand it.

Setting aside what you actually said (a problem with the Party selecting the best candidate?) for what you apparently meant... Only I have a problem? Yeah, only I... and about two and half million other Democrats have a problem with it.

It's really very simple. It's called democracy. Look it up some time.

You should know, as anybody does who's been thru a caucus, it is not practical for Michigan with the turnout that would be certain to occur. Just cannot be done. Even Iowa's caucus this year was out of control because of the turnout, and they're used to holding it. No, holding a caucus was never seriously considered by anyone in the state of Michigan. Hillary did not "put the kabash (sic)" on it.

As for the Wash Times, I asked you for a reliable source. You didn't provide one.

[dchill]

121. Bull.

Michigan has voted for the Democratic candidate in every presidential election since 1992. State officials had hoped the January primary would focus attention on the state's slumping economy and the deepening problems of the U.S. auto industry.

A poll last week by the Marketing Resource Group for the Inside Michigan Politics newsletter showed Michigan voters divided over which candidate they would support, and whether the primary should be rerun at all.

Obama led Clinton 44 percent to 43 percent among likely Michigan voters, according to the poll, which had a margin of error of 5 percentage points.

"That's a close to a dead heat as you can get," said pollster Paul King.

[JoFerret]

139. duh!

.

[TheWraith]

80. Nobody can convince you since you've already made up your mind.

If you actually had an open mind, you'd realize that nobody forced Michigan and Florida to move up their primaries. They made that decision KNOWING that the DNC was going to sanction them, and they did it anyway. The only thing Obama is guilty of is playing by the rules.

But actually getting an answer isn't your goal. Your goal is just to smear Obama. So have fun.

[Barack_America]

82. Nope. The plan would have prevented DEMOCRATS from voting...

...If they had voted in the Republican primary in January, as part of the Kos push for Democrats to vote for Romney.

The plan that the Clinton campaign supported shut DEMOCRATS out of a Democratic primary. Why the hell should the Obama campaign have supported that? And why the hell did the Clinton campaign support it to begin with?

[MNDemNY]

84. "Democrats shouldn't vote in Republofuck primaries. Their own tuff shit.

[Barack_America]

87. "Tuff shit?" To your own supporters? Now THAT'S the way to win a swing state!

:eyes:

[MNDemNY]

89. They chose to vote in the R primary, their vote has already been counted.

One vote per voter.A crazy concept?

[Tyler Durden]

105. Thank you. I never did like LIARS.

"Yes, I'm a Republican!" not.

I don't know about the rest of these people, but I don't think you and I taught our kids to lie.

[Barack_America]

120. So all those folks who voted in the January Democratic primary also shouldn't be allowed..

...to revote? After all, they cast votes on that day too! One person, one vote and all.

Democrats have to decided whether that day counts or not. It shouldn't count for some Democrats, but not for others.

[MNDemNY]

132. Of course those who voted In the D, Primary can vote, their first vote being voided.

[rocktivity]

91. Don't believe the hype, Michigan

The MI Dems moved the date knowing they'd be punished by the DNC, the DNC punished them, Hillary flip-flops about appearing on the ballot, and you're blaming Obama? Can't you tell that the MI Dems are blaming Obama to deflect blame from themselves (THEY have to re-apply for their jobs in November, too), and Hillary's blaming Obama to make political hay for herself? Can't you tell you're being manipulated?

rocknation
:wow:

[ajamo]

108. Party leaders in Michigan to blame.

Get them out of office. The delegate who had pulled their names because of the National Democratic Ruling were above board. Why did Hillary remove her name.
We were later informed that we could not even write in to person who we wanted or supported.
We were were informed that if the person of our choosing was not on the ballot we could vote uncommitted.
The County I live in, the Democratic Party Officers supported Hillary, and never put out instructions in the local newspapers nor in the mail to the the registered democratic voters.
I received my information from another county and I put the instructions in the local papers.
No new vote, it could be crooked as hell. So the National Democratic Party will have to maybe divided the votes to 50/50 and let the candidates be seated. Further the super delegates who were part of the problem will have to split their votes also.
However I beg all registered Michigan Democrat voter to vote for the party in November and lets get our country back. Then get active in your local Democratic Party and get rid of those who do not believe in Democracy nor honesty.

[apocalypsehow]

94. Play by the rules next time and your great state's votes will count. It's as simple as that.

n/t.

[rodeodance]

107. MI voters know HRC cares about them. and they know BO wants to diss them. HRC wins.

[apocalypsehow]

109. Uh-huh. HRC didn't give a fig for MI voters till she found herself losing, and losing badly.

Peddle it elsewhere.

[rodeodance]

123. They see what is happening NOW--they are not obsessed with the past as you are. They

know who cares. and it is NOT BO

[BlueIdaho]

103. Stop you're both wrong... er uh right... er... I mean...

Ok - I gotta be honest - I think MI plotted the course to its own disaster. You can't blame this on Obama - although he's in no rush to find a solution. HRC actually made the re-vote highly unlikely by showing up in the state with a few henchmen carrying suitcases full of money willing to engineer a "primary." People on the scene really wished she had stayed away since it looked like a few fat cats were in town to put in the fix. Not saying that would have happened - but it had a stink about it. Calling Obama "un-american" was a sure fire way to make sure this wouldn't happen. That's either a dumb or carefully calculated move.

But the most important point here is this... Just exactly what is so wrong with talking about economic re-vitalization in a state that could sure use some? This ain't Catholic school - nobody should have to sit in the corner with a dunce cap on. That's not going to prove anything. Using this moment to talk about the economy and the big differences between republicans and democrats could be a great way to turn lemons into lemon aid. It could be a way for Obama to talk about the economy - a growing issue -and showcase MI as an area ready for a rebirth. Its not only politically smart - but lets face it there are LOTS of people there who could use an honest break.

We gotta stop throwing rocks at each other and start figuring out how beat the republicans like a rented mule in November. Did anyone happen to see the Dick Cheney interview the other night. Did you see the look on his face when he said "so?" We've got too make those fuckers pay!

[toys4kitty]

106. heh- heh-heh

The same arguments are being made over and over with absolutely no logic and without looking at the facts that brought us here.
The people that are so adamant that the fault lies with 1 person (Obama OR Clinton)need to have a look at the whole picture.
I would love to blame lots of different people for this huge nightmare- but the truth of the matter is, MANY people have parts to play in this. Quit demanding that supporters of a candidate do your work for you. If you are upset, (and rightly so!) then YOU make phone calls, write e-mails and demand that those in charge of screwing you fix this. For the love of <insert name of your favorite Deity here> this is a prime example of why our country is in the sad state it is right now!

LET'S BLAME ANYONE THAT WE CAN VILIFY THEN DO NOTHING CONSTRUCTIVE TO FIX IT! :rant:

TD- the victim role is a sad and painful role to embrace. Your energy, time and passion would be much better served by addressing the people who are responsible for this. Do something to be the change that you seek. If Obama by himself is so awesomely powerful as you keep suggesting, why can't you be as well? :think:

We all need to be the change that we seek - and retake the power from the institution. We are all responsible and we all have a part to play.

I choose NOT to be a victim.
I choose to believe we ALL can make a difference if we want to.



:dilemma: What are you going to choose?

[zulchzulu]

113. You need to see who the REAL BLAME belongs to

What about the Michigan Democratic Party leaders? They are the ones that knew and were warned that they would lose delegates and disenfranchise Michigan voters if THEY BROKE THE RULES. Again, THEY BROKE THE RULES.

Do your duty and stop making cheapshot swipes at Obama. Both he AND Hillary Clinton (and others) agreed to the Four State Pledge last fall after Michigan decided they didn't like the rules and KNEW they would lose their delegates.

Here are their names and faces:

Michigan Democratic Party Officials
http://www.michigandems.com/leadership.html


Mark Brewer, Chair


Tina Abbott, First Vice Chair


Lupe Ramos-Montigny, Second Vice Chair


Ismael Ahmed, Third Vice Chair

These people fucked you over, not Obama or anyone else.

Read what happened last September and tell me it's Obama's fault...

September 2, 2007
Clinton, Obama and Edwards Join Pledge to Avoid Defiant States
By JEFF ZELENY

PORTSMOUTH, N.H., Sept. 1 — Three of the major Democratic presidential candidates on Saturday pledged not to campaign in Florida, Michigan and other states trying to leapfrog the 2008 primary calendar, a move that solidified the importance of the opening contests of Iowa and New Hampshire.

Hours after Senator Barack Obama of Illinois and former Senator John Edwards of North Carolina agreed to sign a loyalty pledge put forward by party officials in Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York followed suit. The decision seemed to dash any hopes of Mrs. Clinton relying on a strong showing in Florida as a springboard to the nomination.

“We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nominating process,” Patti Solis Doyle, the Clinton campaign manager, said in a statement.

The pledge sought to preserve the status of traditional early-voting states and bring order to an unwieldy series of primaries that threatened to accelerate the selection process. It was devised to keep candidates from campaigning in Florida, where the primary is set for Jan. 29, and Michigan, which is trying to move its contest to Jan. 15.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/us/politics/02dems.html?_r=1&ref=politics&oref=slogin

For Hillary Clinton to call Barack Obama "unAmerican" for an agreement she herself signed up on is nothing more than despicable, pathetic dribble.

[stillcool]

117. What is it you were expecting to happen?

December 1, 2007, 11:42 am
Democrats Strip Michigan of Delegates

By The New York Times

In a widely expected move, the Democratic National Committee voted this morning to strip Michigan of all its 156 delegates to the national nominating convention next year. The state is breaking the party’s rules by holding its primary on Jan. 15. Only Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada are allowed to hold contests prior to Feb. 5.

The party imposed a similar penalty on Florida in August for scheduling a Jan. 29 primary.

The Democratic candidates have already pledged not to campaign in the state, and Senators Barack Obama and Joseph R. Biden Jr., as well as John Edwards and Gov. Bill Richardson, asked to have their names removed from the state ballot.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/democrats-strip-michigan-delegates/

Lawmakers in US state Michigan approve moving presidential primary to January despite rules
The Associated Press
Published: August 30, 2007

LANSING, Michigan: Michigan lawmakers have approved moving the state's U.S. presidential nomination contests to January, three weeks earlier than party rules allow, as states continue to challenge the traditional primary election calendar to gain influence in the race.

Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm is expected to sign the bill passed Thursday that would move the contest to Jan. 15, but approval of the switch is far from certain. A disagreement among state Democratic leaders over whether to hold a traditional ballot vote or a more restricted caucus is complicating final action.

If the date moves up, Michigan Democrats risk losing all their national convention delegates, while Republicans risk losing half.
------------------------------------
Rules in both parties say states cannot hold their 2008 primary contests before Feb. 5, except for a few hand-picked states that hold elections in January.
--------------------------------
"We understand that we're violating the rules, but it wasn't by choice," Michigan Republican Chairman Saul Anuzis said, noting that state Democrats first proposed moving the date to Jan. 15. "We're going to ask for forgiveness and we think ... we will get forgiveness."
----------------------------------
Even states that do not have favored status are trying to jump toward the front of the line. Florida Democrats decided to move their state's primary to Jan. 29. The national party has said it will strip Florida of its presidential convention delegates unless it decides within the next few weeks to move the vote to a later date.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/31/america/NA-POL-US-Primary-Scramble.php?WT.mc_id=rssap_america

Democrats vow to skip defiant states
Six candidates agree not to campaign in those that break with the party's calendar. Florida and Michigan, this includes you.
By Mark Z. Barabak, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 2, 2007
The muddled 2008 presidential nomination calendar gained some clarity Saturday -- at least on the Democratic side -- as the party's major candidates agreed not to campaign in any state that defies party rules by voting earlier than allowed.

Their collective action was a blow to Florida and Michigan, two states likely to be important in the general election, which sought to enhance their clout in the nominating process as well.

Front-runner Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York followed Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois and former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina in pledging to abide by the calendar set by the Democratic National Committee last summer. The rules allow four states -- Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina -- to vote in January.

The four "need to be first because in these states ideas count, not just money," Edwards said in a written statement. "This tried-and-true nominating system is the only way for voters to judge the field based on the quality of the candidate, not the depth of their war chest."

Hours later, after Obama took the pledge, Clinton's campaign chief issued a statement citing the four states' "unique and special role in the nominating process" and said that the New York senator, too, would "adhere to the DNC-approved calendar."

Three candidates running farther back in the pack -- New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson and Sens. Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut and Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware -- said Friday they would honor the pledge, shortly after the challenge was issued in a letter co-signed by Democratic leaders in the four early states.
--
Florida, the state that proved pivotal in the 2000 presidential election, is again a source of much upheaval. Ignoring the rule that put January off-limits, legislators moved the state's primary up to Jan. 29, pushing Florida past California and other big states voting Feb. 5.

Leaders of the national party responded last month by giving Florida 30 days to reconsider, or have its delegates barred from the August convention in Denver.

"The party had to send a strong message to Florida and the other states," said Donna Brazile, a veteran campaign strategist and member of the Democratic National Committee, the party's governing body. "We have a system that is totally out of control."

Despite that warning, Michigan lawmakers moved last week to jump the queue, voting to advance the state's primary to Jan. 15.

Florida Dems defy Dean on primary date
By Sam Youngman
Posted: 06/12/07 07:58 PM
Howard Dean, chairman of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), is trapped in a high-stakes game of chicken with party leaders in Florida.

They warned him yesterday not to “disenfranchise” state voters and risk being blamed for a debacle on the scale of the 2000 recount.

The warning comes amid alarm over a decision Sunday by state Democratic leaders to embrace Jan. 29 as the primary date.
They are defying DNC headquarters and daring it to follow through on its threat to disqualify electors selected in the primary and punish candidates who campaign there.

But the DNC is not backing down. The committee bought time with a statement late yesterday saying, “The DNC will enforce the rules as passed by its 447 members in Aug. 2006. Until the Florida State Democratic Party formally submits its plan and we’ve had the opportunity to review that submission, we will not speculate further.”

Dean does not, in any case, have the power to waive party rules, a DNC spokeswoman said. The entire committee would have to vote again to do that.
------------------

Carol Fowler, chairwoman of the South Carolina Democratic Party, said she won’t move that state’s primary, scheduled for Feb. 2, unless the national committee allows her.

“I’m going to do what the DNC tells me to,” Fowler said. “I’m not willing to violate the rules. The penalties are too stiff.”


http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/florida-dems-defy-dean-on-primary-date-2007-06-12.html

Posted: August 27, 2007, 6:05 PM ET
DNC Moves to Stop Primary Frontloading
The Democratic National Committee moved over the weekend to penalize Florida for moving up its primary date to Jan. 29 -- a violation of DNC rules that prohibit states from holding nominating polls before Feb. 5.
The committee said the Sunshine State would be stripped of its delegation at the party's National Convention in 2008 if the state does not reschedule its primary in the next 30 days.

As the nation's fourth-most-populous state, Florida has 210 delegates and has played a major role in recent presidential elections. Florida's decision to advance its primary follows the increasing trend of states pushing up their contests in order to gain relevance in the election.

"Rules are rules. California abided by them, and Florida should, as well. To ignore them would open the door to chaos," said Garry Shays, a DNC member from California. California -- with its 441 delegates -- moved its primary to Feb. 5, along with more than a dozen other states.
-----------------------------------------

The DNC's move may have repercussions beyond Florida as other state legislatures consider disregarding the Feb. 5 cutoff. Last week, Michigan's state Senate voted to hold its primary on Jan. 15. The state's House is expected to approve the earlier date as well.

The DNC gave Florida the option of holding a Jan. 29 contest but with nonbinding results, and the delegates would be awarded at a later official date.

Florida Democratic Committee Chairwoman Karen Thurman said this option would be expensive -- as much as $8 million -- and potentially undoable. Another option would be to challenge the ruling in court.

"We do represent, standing here, a lot of Democrats in the state of Florida -- over 4 million," Thurman said, according to the New York Times. "This is emotional for Florida. And it should be."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/politics/july-dec07/florida_08-27.html

Published: Monday, September 24, 2007
Florida defies Dems, moves up primary
Associated Press

PEMBROKE PINES, Fla. — The Florida Democratic Party is sticking to its primary date — and it printed bumper stickers to prove it.

State party leaders formally announced Sunday their plans to move ahead with a Jan. 29 primary, despite the national leadership's threatened sanctions.

The Democratic National Committee has said it will strip the Sunshine State of its 210 nominating convention delegates if it doesn't abide by the party-set calendar, which forbids most states from holding primary contests before Feb. 5. The exceptions are Iowa on Jan. 14, Nevada on Jan. 19, New Hampshire on Jan. 22 and South Carolina on Jan. 29.
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20070924/NEWS02/709240045/-1/

Michigan defies parties, moves up primary date
JAN. 15 DECISION COULD SET OFF STAMPEDE OF STATES
By Stephen Ohlemacher
Associated Press
Article Launched: 09/05/2007 01:34:57 AM PDT

WASHINGTON - Michigan officially crashed the early primary party Tuesday, setting up showdowns with both political parties and likely pushing the presidential nomination calendar closer to 2007.

Gov. Jennifer Granholm signed a bill moving both of Michigan's presidential primaries to Jan. 15. Michigan's move threatens to set off a chain reaction that could force Iowa and New Hampshire to reschedule their contests even earlier than anticipated, perhaps in the first week in January 2008 or even December 2007.
-------------------------------------------
The national parties have tried to impose discipline on the rogue states. On the Republican side, states that schedule contests before Feb. 5 risk losing half their delegates to next summer's convention, though some are banking that whoever wins the GOP nomination will eventually restore the delegates.

Democrats have experienced similar problems, but party officials hoped they had stopped the mad dash to move up by threatening to strip Florida of all its convention delegates for scheduling a primary Jan. 29 and by persuading the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in the party-approved early states.

Michigan, in moving up its primary, faces a similar penalty from the Democratic National Committee.
-----------------------------------------------------

The decision by the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in approved early states renders voting in the rogue states essentially non-binding beauty contests.

But Former Michigan Gov. James Blanchard, co-chairman of Hillary Clinton's Michigan campaign, told the Associated Press on Tuesday that the pledge allows candidates' spouses to campaign in the state, allows the candidates to speak to groups of 200 or fewer and permits fundraising.
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_6804685?source=rss

Editorial: Follow DNC rules on seating delegates
February 25, 2008
By Editorial Board

On September 1, the campaigns of Clinton and Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.) issued press releases stating that they had signed pledges affirming the DNC’s decision to approve certain representative states and sanction others for moving their nominating contests earlier. But now that the race is close, Clinton — whose top advisor Harold Ickes voted as a member of the DNC to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates — is pushing for the delegates to be seated.

Her argument is that not doing so disenfranchises the 1.7 million Florida Democrats who voted and that her pledge promised only that she wouldn’t campaign in the states, not that she wouldn’t try to seat the delegates. However, the results of the contests in Florida and Michigan are not necessarily representative of the voters’ preferences in those states. Given that most of the candidates removed their names from the Michigan ballot, and that many voters stayed home from the vote in Florida with the understanding that their contest would not affect the final delegate count, the delegate totals that the candidates accumulated in these states may not accurately reflect the will of the voters. Had there been no restrictions in Michigan and Florida, the turnout, and thus the results, may have been different.

The Four State Pledge all candidates signed on Aug. 28 stated, “Whereas, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar... Therefore, I ____________, Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules ...pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window.” When the candidates pledged to campaign only in approved states, they were also agreeing to the terms listed above, which explicitly mentioned stripping noncompliant states of their entire delegation.

As it has become clear that the delegate race will be very close, politicians in the Democratic party are discussing the implications of the DNC pledge, and whether it would be wise to seat the delegates after all, rather than risk offending these important states that could be influential in the November election.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) recently said that the Florida and Michigan delegates should not be seated if they would decide the nomination. Other compromise proposals include holding new nominating contests in these states, but such contests would be expensive and cumbersome. The irony is that had Florida and Michigan not moved up their primaries, they would have voted in February and March, when they would have been even more important than in earlier months in determining the Democratic nominee — and would not have created an enormous controversy that has the potential to divide the party.
http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/25/editorialFollowDncRulesOnSeatingDelegates

Voters Face Confusion in Michigan Dem Race
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/01/09/voters_face_confusion_in_michi.html
January 9, 2008
By Peter Slevin
CHICAGO -- Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton is the only top-tier Democrat on the Jan. 15 Michigan primary ballot, but followers of her chief rivals are hoping to wound her all the same.

A fresh poll suggests that running nearly unopposed will not mean winning nearly 100 percent of the vote.

The campaigns of Sen. Barack Obama and former senator John Edwards are urging their supporters to cast ballots for "uncommitted," according to state Democratic party chairman Mark Brewer. The Obama campaign says there may be "grass-roots efforts," but that the Chicago-based campaign is not involved.
--------------------------------------------------------------
They say on the radio spot that they intend to vote "uncommitted" and give Obama a chance to compete for those delegates in Denver.

An "uncommitted" vote would take the place of a write-in, which is not permitted.

"People are already frustrated here in Detroit because they can't cast a ballot for Obama. Many on their absentee ballots many have tried to write in Obama, but they have spoiled the ballots," said Sam Riddle, Monica Conyers's chief of staff. "We know we've got to educate the voters in a hurry."
Following Michigan law, local clerks are allowing voters a chance to redo their ballots.

Kucinich Files Affidavit To Remove Name From Michigan's Primary Shortly Before Deadline

October 10, 2007 8:19 a.m. EST
Ayinde O. Chase - AHN Staff
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7008781843
Dover, NH (AHN) - The Kucinich for President campaign Tuesday afternoon officially requested that Kucinich's name be withdrawn from the Michigan Democratic primary ballot. The affidavit came by way of to the Michigan Secretary of State's office.

The Ohio Congressman and Democratic Presidential candidates National Campaign manager Mike Klein said in the statement, "We signed a public pledge recently, promising to stand with New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina, and the DNC-approved 'early window', and the action we are taking today protects New Hampshire's first-in-the-nation primary status, and Nevada's early caucus."

The statement continued: "We support the grassroots nature of the New Hampshire, small-state primary, and we support the diversity efforts that Chairman Dean and the DNC instituted last year, when they added Nevada and South Carolina to the window in January 2008. We are obviously committed to New Hampshire's historic role." Klein who actually recently moved to Dover said, "We will continue to adhere to the DNC-approved primary schedule."

Governor Granholm and other Michigan Democratic leaders have openly criticized the decision by several presidential candidates to keep their names off the state primary ballot.

The Michigan lawmakers are taken back by Barack Obama, Joe Biden, John Edwards and Bill Richardson's decision to withdraw their names from the January 15th ballot.

The only ones who remain on Michigan's primary ballot are Hillary Clinton, Mike Gravel and Chris Todd.
-----------------------------
The DNC has threatened to punish states that break tradition and the rules by challenging Iowa and New Hampshire as first to pic. The committee has threatened to unseat the delegates of states that go ahead defy the primary rules set by the party

[zulchzulu]

119. Great links...if Michiganders can't see it's their own Democratic leadership who screwed them over..

...then there is nothing we can do.

The blame for breaking the rules and having been warned many times is in the hands of the Michigan Democratic Party leadership.

It's like blaming a customer at a store for a robbery done by robbers...

[stillcool]

124. It is amazing how the facts...

have changed. 48 states follow the rules, and 2 decide they don't have to, knowing full well what the consequences will be. And now the Clinton Campaign wants once again to lie, cheat, and steal to try to win an election they can not win.

[Hepburn]

122. Your OP is bullshit.

I live in California. We had a primary here....I voted in the primary. My candidate did not win. I hate Hillary Clinton. I want a do-over, too, to see if now with all of the dirty tricks of Hillary being exposed that California would actually be in the Obama column and not the Clinton column. We did our primary before all of her lying racist crap came out.

DO OVER, DO OVER, WHAAAAAA, I WANNA DO OVER....IT'S NOT FAIR, IT'S NOT FAIR. THE DEM PARTY OWES THIS TO CALIFORNIA...:eyes: :sarcasm:

Your state party did not follow the rules. Hillary supported your primary not being counted. Take it up with her and the MI Dem Party, OK?

You fucked yourselves over....put the blame where it belongs.

[Tyler Durden]

148. You're a herder for Obama.

You're ignored.

[Hepburn]

150. Actually....

...I hate Hillary Clinton and her lying racist behavior. If that is a herder, then so be it.

BTW: Your OP is still total bullshit.

[MaineDem]

149. I think you should talk to your Governor.

This has nothing to do with the campaigns or the candidates. At least it didn't when they all understood the rules.

[Tyler Durden]

153. I'm sure the out of work UAW guys in Flint are all over all the guff about "The Rules."

If the rules are so important, WHY did IA and NH get dispensation when they moved up? If rules are rules, that is.

[MaineDem]

156. Basically, because they were allowed to go in the "pre-window"

The actual dates weren't cast in stone. They didn't break rules.

I'm sorry you're upset but the blame goes to your Governor and Democratic leaders. It's not the Party's or the candidates' faults.

And, union people should understand this more than anyone.

[Tyler Durden]

167. Whatever you guys say...

...I give up on you all.

Your idea of cooperation is to cooperate with OBAMA, so no cooperation is possible. I'll keep my bets on the Fall Election.

[MaineDem]

171. Sorry, Tyler, this has nothing to do with either candidate

And who are "you guys"?

I don't want the Democrats of Michigan denied a vote any more than you do. But the problem is not with Obama. It's a problem with Michigan Democrats and I've been saying that since December when the primary was moved up.

Please don't buy the hype. Put the blame where it belongs. The Governor and Senator Levin for starters.

[Tyler Durden]

182. I'm not "buying" anything: I'm REPORTING.

However, I will say it was pretty damned stupid of State Senator Tupac Hudson (D) HEAD of the Michigan Obama Campaign to stall until Wednesday night and then declare it an impasse. To a lot of state residents it looks like the Obama Campaign BLOCKED the redo, and SIDES with the DNC that they never have anything nice to say about.

That's the news from Michigan; and BLAME at this point is really stupid as the voters are now (read the papers, listen to local radio) blaming OBAMA through his campaign, and he should be DOING something about it, and FAST.

I wouldn't wait until September. That's a long time to let this fester.

[ecdab]

172. What is your solution?

I'll taken any fair solution that doesn't produce a skewed result that ends up punishing every voter in the 48 states that did follow the rules. What do you have? Or is this all about creating a skewed result to you?

[Tyler Durden]

176. There isn't a "solution": I'm saying Obama better build some bridges.

In Michigan we SAW two of our proposed ETHANOL plants lose their subsidies to plants in Iowa. We need JOBS programs, We need Green Power subsidies, we need low income housing, among other things.

What a campaign USUALLY does when a state perceives them negatively is GO THERE and PROMISE SHIT. Unless, of course, they think they can win WITHOUT that state. Wouldn't bet on it.

Of course, if HRC gets the nod, the point is moot because her campaign didn't sink the redo deal, Obama's did, and she's likely a shoo-in here because you can't BUY that kind of publicity.

[ecdab]

183. Why are you determined to deflect blame away from the Michigan

officials that did this to you and toward Obama who didn't cause this in any way shape or form?

Did your local elected officials cause this in your view?

[Tyler Durden]

185. In my view, the idiots at the DNC did this.

Their "take no prisoners/no Compromise" in the state hardest hit by the recession was the stupidest thing I've seen Democrats pull in YEARS.

But all that's MOOT. The two campaigns were touting the proposed deal on Sunday 3/16, then ONE Campaign said we won't agree on this anymore on WEDNESDAY, the day before our REPUBLICAN Senate said was their deadline to consider the primary.

This has become "who had it last" and the constant "no, no, no...it was those LEADERS in MICHIGAN, it's all YOUR FAULT..." is just pissing people off more.

This has nothing to do with reality: it has to do with do you want to win in Michigan if Obama gets the nod, or don't you? If you don't, just keep BLAMING people like Levin, and MAYBE he'll get voted out in the bargain, too.

Is there some reason Campaign Obama can't just figure out some way to kiss Michigan a little? I realize it's after the general opinion is that he's already fucked the state, but it couldn't hurt.

[ecdab]

192. Actually, it seems to only be the hard core Hillary supporters

that are blaming Obama for what the Michigan legislature did. I think there are a lot of Michigan Democrats that feel screwed over by the Democratic party as a whole - and perhaps they are right. But it's really only angry Hillary supporters that are fanning the flames of "IT'S ALL OBAMA'S FAULT". Maybe if you chilled out a bit, stepped back and looked at how Michigan got to the unfortunate place that it, you would understand that trying to rip down the Democratic Party isn't going to help the Democratic Party win the GE.

As for me - I don't control what asses the Obama campaign kisses or when they kiss them. As I noted earlier, there is plenty of time for ass kissing between now and November. You on the other hand can control what you type, butting having lost yourself in this fantasy land where Obama disenfranchised you - maybe you can not. If you actually wanted to help - you would be looking for ways to heal, you are not even coming close to that. You are simply raging for the sake of raging or for the sake of helping Hillary.

[Tyler Durden]

194. If you stay in denial about this, there's nothin that can be done.

I AM REPORTING. I think it was STUPID what the DNC did, and Campaign Obama could have fixed it with little or no cost to themselves.

I rage about nothing here. You simply cannot see this was a tactical error on the part of the Obama Campaign in Michigan, and therefore you have to blame Michigan voters and legislators.

When people think that someone else is the cause of a problem, how much does it help to keep trying to say "...Oh, no no no, it's all YOUR fault." ?

[ecdab]

200. This is the Michigan legislatures fault.

I'm sure there are some people in Michigan that don't understand that - likewise I'm sure there are many that do. Maybe if you embraced that reality, as opposed to to a misconception, you could help take that message to the people of Michigan as opposed to helping to reinforce the misconception.

I certainly do not deny that what has happened in Michigan was unfortunate and will create problems for all the Democrats there. However, I'm not going to embrace a bunch of crap because some voters in Michigan can not come to terms with the reality of what happened there. The best way to fix this situation is for people to chill out for a minute, stop pointing the finger in manner that appears to be motivated by Presidential politics, and start looking for as fair a solution as can be found. Does any of that sound disagreeable to you.

[Tyler Durden]

201. I'm not GOD. I have no influence. I am REPORTING what I read and hear.

You do what you want. The solution now is for Campaign Obama to build bridges to MICHIGAN. BIG ONES. FAST.

There is no other solution. They think you fucked them.

[ecdab]

208. Not a single person in Michigan thinks I fucked them,

so go easy on the bullshit.

I've said a dozen times that Obama does need to build bridges in Michigan - due to the misconception that SOME people have there and that SOME people are trying to spread both here and there (and yes - I'm talking about you, go back and read your posts Mr. "I'm just reporting").

You are not trying to bridge build here - you are trying to bridge burn.

[Tyler Durden]

210. Not responding.

[BeyondGeography]

152. The great state of Michigan fucked this up completely

Too bad, because it is a great state.

[Tyler Durden]

154. Too bad, because this "rulesrulesrules" stuff is making workers think Dems don't give a fuck.

...Unless, since the compromise was scuttled by Michigan Campaign Obama, you're an OBAMA supporter, and want ALL OF THE STATE'S REPUBLICANS eligible to vote in a Democratic Primary redo since their primary is over.

[BeyondGeography]

165. Michigan put the DNC in a bad place, that's not Obama's fault

From a purely objective standpoint, it's good that there are no do-overs. Otherwise, what's to stop ANY state from jumping the line next time or the time after that? Michigan created chaos for the party and for the race; they should not be rewarded with a re-vote, that's the way I would feel if I were Howard Dean.

[ecdab]

159. A solution, a fair solution, would be a good thing

for both Michigan and Florida. However, this OP doesn't come close to sounding like they are looking for a fair solution or a means to heal the party - it sounds like somebody looking for advantages and trying to keep wounds from healing in order to do so. If a fair solution can not be found, then people need to admit that and start looking for a better way.

Michigan and Florida were in knowing violation of the rules. While I found the rules to be vastly to harsh, both states did what they did knowing what would happen. Trying to blame Obama for that is foolish. Trying to manipulate the situation so that it can disproportionately advantage one side is also wrong - why should people in other states that did follow the rules have their votes watered down by an unfair primary in Michigan? Why should 48 states be punished for what elected officials in the state of Michigan did? They shouldn't be.

A fair re-vote in Michigan can not be preformed in Michigan due to their open primary system during the initial primary. Democrats that crossed over to vote in the Republican primary would be cheated out of their voice, and since Obama wasn't even on the ballot during the first initial primary - it is safe to believe many of his supporters would be the ones being cheated out of their voice, and thus a skewed result would be achieved in Michigan that would impact the combined results of the 48 states that did follow the rules.

Counting the votes from the initial primary is ridiculous - Obama wasn't on the ballot.

The first step toward healing in Michigan would be for people to look at how what happened came about. This wasn't Obama's fault, this was elected officials in Michigan that unfairly brought this down upon the people of Michigan. Assigning the blame properly is step one.

The second step would be for people to understand that Obama didn't stop a re-vote - again, elected officials in Michigan stopped the re-vote because it could not be done in a fair manner. People that are trying to turn this into a political football are doing the exact opposite of trying to heal the wounds that were wrongly inflicted upon the good people of Michigan.

The third step is to understand that a redo isn't going to happen at this point, and never could have been done in fair manner to begin with.

The fourth step is to understand that violating party election rules has to carry some form of consequence, otherwise there is no point in having party election rules at all.

The fifth step, once steps 1 to 4 have been completed, is to look at what options are remaining. How do we get some form of representation for Michigan without a primary? Since seating the delegates from the initial vote wouldn't have been representative of the will of the Michigan voters, and seating delegates from a redo wouldn't have been representative of the will of the Michigan voters either, and there really doesn't seem to be a way for the will of the Michigan voters to be expressed at this point - and doing nothing doesn't seem to be acceptable, it would seem likely to me that some mathematical split of the delegates would be the best that can be done. A mathematical split will not represent the will of the Michigan voters any more than a re-vote would, but it can be done in a manner that doesn't skew the contest in an unfair manner (that punishes voters from the other 48 states that did follow the party election rules) and doesn't cost any money. It's not a great solution, but I don't see a better one.

Do any Hillary supporters see a way to do this in a better manner that is fair and doesn't punish the 48 states that did follow the rules? I'd love to hear it if you do, other wise, you are justing speaking empty words that are full of sound and fury but signify nothing.

[Tyler Durden]

189. I repeat: I am REPORTING what I read and hear.

If everyone from Campaign Obama keeps playing CYA, if he gets the nod he will lose here in the fall. This isn't what I WANT, it's what I read and hear, and the deal only got killed YESTERDAY. Nobody expects the redo anymore and they are getting more pissed by the minute. I had a guy from the plant come into my office and ask me if it was true that the primary was dead, and when I said yes he didn't want to hear any explanations, he just said if they didn't want his vote NOW, then they weren't getting it later.

You Obama folks can keep playing games, or you can write to your campaign and suggest some serious Campaign promises to Michigan be made and FAST, or else you just might lose the state.

If you can't fathom that and want to play "well it's so an so's fault" then you've already lost. Time for DAMAGE CONTROL.

[ecdab]

195. If that were your actual concern you wouldn't be here spreading

the myth that this is Obama's fault - you would be trying to correct the misunderstanding. You are not trying to control damage, you are trying to create damage.

[Tyler Durden]

198. I have to give up on you.

I am letting you know the perception of most people here. Warning: Stay in denial, blame Michigan, Lose the state.

It's happened before, to better men than Barack Obama.

[ecdab]

202. Actually you are asking people to deny reality.

I don't blame Michigan for where they are, I blame the Michigan legislature - so should you. All you are doing is taking an unfortunate situation and trying to spin a political advantage out of it.

[Tyler Durden]

204. This is pointless. I won't respond to you anymore. You are not listening.

You blame Michigan Legislators when Michigan Voters feel it's the DNC and the National Obama Campaign, then you lose.

Build a bridge, or lose. That simple.

[ecdab]

206. I'm sure Obama will try and build a bridge, you seem very busy here

trying to make it more difficult to build.

It not my fault and it's not Obama's fault that SOME Michigan voters don't understand the reality of the situation they are in. Time has a way of increasing understanding - assuming people are not repeating false crap in their ears over and over again - like you are doing.

You claim you are here reporting. You are also here making accusations. Go back and read your own posts - you are not reporting anything. If you wanted to report you would provide links, not here-say mixed with smears.

[Tyler Durden]

211. Not responding.

[Tyler Durden]

203. If you want to believe that, be my guest.

I can't create DICK. Who am I that people in this state LISTEN to me? Shit, YOU people aren't even listening. I'm telling you what I read and hear in the media and on the street, and you disregard it. You can't change peoples' minds here by telling them it's the fault of people they TRUST, people who they feel were trying to MAKE their vote count. You CAN'T. And if you won't, then nobody can help you, or Campaign Obama, and if he gets the nod, the Democratic Party.

[Texas Hill Country]

160. My family is from Michigan and they are all PISSED.

[ecdab]

162. They should be pissed

and hopefully they are pissed at the Michigan officials that did wrong by them and the entire country as opposed somebody else.

[Tyler Durden]

186. Keep saying that...

MAYBE if you say that to YOURSELF enough, the residents of MICHIGAN will believe it too!

MAGIC!!!!

:silly:

[rodeodance]

181. as they should be---Politicians screw up and the people get the shaft.

[robbedvoter]

161. Not from Michigan, but passionate about voters' rights (see handle)

I cannot believe that DNC created such a mess in this primary and BO openly shows contempt to so many voters in 2 states.

[ecdab]

163. What should the DNC have done?

And why should the 48 states that did follow the rules have their votes watered down by a skewed primary result in Michigan? Surely that isn't your idea of voters rights?

[robbedvoter]

179. Not allow GOP disenfranchise Dem voters. GOP legislatures did that

Wrong people were made to pay for it. And if not corrected, it will cost us the GE.

[ecdab]

187. You would fix that by skewing the votes from the 48 states that did

follow the rules in manner more to your pleasing by seating a Michigan delegation that was unrepresentative of the Michigan voting block as a whole? And how exactly did the GOP cause the Michigan legislature to vote to move their primary forward? And how is that people making wilded accusations against the Democratic party is going to do anything except hurt us in the GE. If cooler heads would prevail - we would understand that the Michigan legislature screwed up and now a representative vote from Michigan can not be achieved. Thus something else should be done, and trying to tear down the Democratic party as a whole because of what the Michigan legislature did isn't going to help us in the GE. The crocodile tears being shed for the people of Michigan are getting old. The people of Michigan got screwed - but watching people claim that they are "only here to help" the people of Michigan and the Democratic party in the GE by throwing around misplaced blame that is politically motivated and damaging to the Democratic party is such a fraud.

[Tyler Durden]

190. The two primaries are on the SAME DAY.

You can keep trying to blame MICHIGAN people for what they believe is a DNC issue, or you can build a bridge with some serious promises.

It's just that simple. Quit trying to shove off blame people here believe is YOURS and take some action from the OBAMA CAMPAIGN so the Democrats don't lose Michigan.

Or not. It's really your call.

[ecdab]

205. Check yourself - I never said it was the people of Michigan's fault

I said it was the Michigan legislatures fault - I have been very specific about that many times directly to you. Maybe you should quit choosing to attack Obama and embrace a few simple pieces of reality.

Remember, people running around Michigan spreading angry falsehoods is not going to help make the situation in Michigan any better - it's only going to make it worse. You are certainly doing your best to make things worse for the Democrats there.

[Tyler Durden]

212. Not responding.

[ecdab]

214. LOL - so it's the old lalalalala I can't hear you routine when you

try and plug words in my mouth, make up a bunch of crap, and try and present yourself falsely about being concerned about what the GE outcome will be. OK.

[Tyler Durden]

215. I said I would not respond to you.

You want to make this all about Clinton. I don't. I don't see any common ground. So I'm not responding. AGAIN.

[ecdab]

219. I didn't say word one about Clinton - there you go again putting

words into my mouth.

[Tippy]

209. NO....The voters in Michgan and Florida disenfrancised themselves.

They knew just as every one else in the US what the rules were. Now that history is being made they want to be part of it, I understand this. But Michigan and Florida also need to understand they won't be disenfranchised if they help us take our country back no matter who the candidate is......The republican legslatures in thse two sates did this, they knew it would take a remarkable set of events to keep control of the WH so they suplied the means necessary.

I pray that the voters in these two states realize the importance of electing a Demcratic candidate so we can once again be the Country everyone looks up to instead of down on, it's going to take all of us working together and a good strong president to help us.

[totodeinhere]

178. The economy in Michigan will be in such sad shape by November...

that either Dem candidate should be able to win there easily in spite of this brouhaha over a possible Michigan re-vote.

And let's face it. Most of the people who are pushing this are Clinton supporters who are trying to get more votes and more delegates for her. If you believe the Clinton people are pushing this out of love for the people of Michigan, I've got a bridge to sell you.

[Tyler Durden]

184. You people just keep pushing off OBAMA.

The locals here hold State Sen. Hudson (D) the chairman of Michigan Campaign Obama RESPONSIBLE for stopping the redo. I would stop making assumptions and, if you believe Obama will get the nod, the best thing you can do is START writing to the campaign and suggest Obama start making some friends in Michigan.

This continuing to yell CLINTONCLINTONCLINTON takes no responsibility for who actually stopped the deal, and it doesn't do anything toward building any bridges.

Time is running out. I wouldn't waste it if I believed as you do.

[rodeodance]

180. "the citizens of Michigan are REALLY PISSED OFF."--But they see Hillary working for them.

[atufal1c]

193. Tyler, you don't seriously believe that a blue state

like Michigan is going red because they're mad that they got punished for breaking DNC rules do you?

What are they going to do, vote for the guy that told them that their jobs aren't coming back? That has told them that more hard times lay ahead? That's suggested that we may not get out of Iraq in their lifetimes?

They're going to vote for the *red* guy that said that?

I mean, it's not like 90% of the vote went to Hillary and now won't matter. A decent chunk of the vote surely was for Obama. Frankly, it's the Edwards people that should be pissed. He seems like the right kind of candidate for the state (and I'm an Obama man). They're candidate dropped out of the race.

And isn't it true that Michigan is contributing more than it's share of military recruits due to the economic situation in the state?

I just don't see this happening.

[robbedvoter]

196. It will with Florida, and who knows with Mi? taking voters for granted - not a good

idea.

[Tyler Durden]

199. They don't care, to them it's all BLAME HRC, all channels, all the time.

And if they can't convert people to their point of view, then they simply dismiss them as stupid.

I hope we get HRC, because BO has not got many friends here, and I don't think we can win without Michigan.

[Tyler Durden]

197. atufal1c you don't live here, do you?

This has nothing to do with Clinton. Really. It's a terrible situation here, and when that happens, regular people look for someone to BLAME.

The loss of the Primary is grounds, in the minds of quite a few at ground zero, to see that the Democratic Party doesn't give fuck-all for them. They don't see this as Clinton, Obama or the man in the moon, but they do see that, as reported in the media, there was a deal to redo the primary pending on Sunday, and on WEDNESDAY, too late to do anything about it, the Chairman of Michigan Campaign Obama would no longer agree, and the Primary is now dead.

NOTHING pisses these people off more than the perception that someone has stolen their vote. And that's what they think.

If you're really an Obama Man, WRITE to the campaign, tell them to start making some friends in Michigan, because they're few and far between at the moment, and not getting closer.

[atufal1c]

207. I'm in Chicago, about 5 blocks from where Michelle O grew up ,

I went to grad school at UM 10 years ago. I've been to Detroit and Flint, and I know it's bad. But I also know Michigander's aren't stupid. And voting for McCain would be stupid.

As for Obama making friends there, so far his ground game has been a glory to behold. By November,n I'm sure he'll have plenty of friends. Heck, he could probably get started on that right now if we could just wrap up this darn primary...:)

[Tyler Durden]

213. As I said, you don't live here.

The general populace doesn't like either of them all that much, mainly think they are ex-ivy league lawyers, something most residents list just above roadkill.

Personally, I don't see the "...glory to behold." If it was, he'd be nominated already, or you have to admit that Clinton being around 6% behind at the moment has been running a good campaign as well.

He's playing come from behind here: take my word for it.

[mathewsleep]

218. gobama.