I think Hillary does not realize the damage she is doing to Democratic Party

[Thurston Howell III]

by staying in the primaries. Obama has the votes and the delegates. Hillary should just drop and try for 2012. If she stays in now she'll ruin her chances for any future run. Hillary, go back to NY, be a good Senator, and we'll see you in 2012. Don't ruin yourself and the party!

Gobama!

[rwenos]

1. Not "Realize"?

It does not appear she CARES. To hell with "realize."

[Thurston Howell III]

5. True.

[chimpymustgo]

71. Obama does NOT have the VOTES or the DELEGATES. There are still primaries and

caucuses to be held.

Why don't you quit calling for an abortion of the political process? It's rather...Rupublican.

[Hieronymus]

41. I agree .. she wants to be president at any cost.

[Road Scholar]

63. I'm afraid it's too late now to do anything about it. We might already

be in the L column because of her assuming "entitlement". And she continues to split the party.

[Evergreen Emerald]

68. I do not understand that idea. Obama wants to be president at any cost

and you do not suggest that he quit. They are in a virtual tie. Why should she quit?

At any cost: Obama is purposefully dividing the democratic party by shouting "Racism!" at every legitimate criticism.

[rodeodance]

95. I do not

understand these posts at all. but her is a gift .


http://bp3.blogger.com/_vH5f59Og-Sc/Rsk8dPZMnAI/AAAAAAAAA7g/JRs1kzPFYOU/s320/rove+obama.jpg

[ElsewheresDaughter]

80. oh and Obama doesn't?

[jasmine621]

81. The Dem party has done this to themselves. Hillary has a right to

fight for the nomination. It's a Constitution right. You want us to have less democracy than the nations we criticize for having none. this entire primary makes a third party much more viable now and I hope Hillary or someone with her passion, dedication, and intelligence starts one as soon as this election is over.

[Hieronymus]

88. That worked so well with Nader, didn't it?

[Hieronymus]

87. That picture is so worked on that it barely resembles Hillary .. my God.

[susankh4]

86. You mean like Barack?

[rodeodance]

94. do you

think BO will do anything to win?--I do


http://bp3.blogger.com/_vH5f59Og-Sc/Rsk8dPZMnAI/AAAAAAAAA7g/JRs1kzPFYOU/s320/rove+obama.jpg

[maddiejoan]

2. Question for you

Why do you assume that half the Democratic Party is wrong?

[Thurston Howell III]

4. No because over half has gone with Obama.

[maddiejoan]

8. debatable

[MonkeyFunk]

9. No

not over half of Democrats. Half of primary voters - the two groups are not the same.

[Thurston Howell III]

13. Tell that to Maddie because I was answering the way she framed the question.

[MonkeyFunk]

50. How did she frame anything?

Half the democratic party is not the same group as half the people who voted in democratic primaries.

Clinton does better among Democrats.

[Forkboy]

12. Respectfully, I don't think it's a matter of either side being "wrong".

But her chances are very, very slim. You have to see that.

Personally, I'm really uncomfortable with calls for someone to drop out. As a Kucinich fan I saw that before the very fist debate, and it sucked. So I'm not comfortable with this either, but I do think the time is very near for her to reassess things for the good of the whole party, not just one half or the other.

[FlyingSquirrel]

14. Why do you assume half the country is wrong?

That's what those of us on DU assume about Republicans.

Doublethink... it's interesting stuff. Just got done re-reading 1984.

Must guard against doublethink.

[hfojvt]

51. it's not an assumption - in either case

I could see that the Bush tax cuts benefitted the wealthy (of course Bob McIntyre at Citizens for Tax Justice helped, a lot) and I could see that he was lying about that fact. The people who either could not see it, or did not care, were wrong. That was not an assumption though. It was partly an observable fact (for those who could not see it) and a value judgement (about the selfishness and greed of the rich people who could see it and did not think their large benefits, nor the dishonesty with which the plan was sold were bad things).

In much the same way, I think it is clearly demonstrable that Hillary's tax plans largely benefit those above the median income, and that Bill's administration, which she touts as her experience, had a track record of throwing progressives under the bus, AND her IWR vote and statements on the war are a prime illustration of that. I don't think it's an assumption any more than I would think it's an assumption if I see a mate in two in a chess game. Heck, I watched a chess game where neither of the players saw a mate in ONE. I did not assume they were wrong though. I could clearly see it. Even worse I can remember two games where my opponents had devastating moves that they fortunately did not see either. Kasparov or even a master-rated player would see things that I could not, but once he/she demonstrated them or pointed them out, it would be wilfull ignorance to deny it.

Of course, life is much more complicated than chess, AND not everybody has the same value system. When there is a conflict in values, then no amount of logic or facts is gonna matter. Not everybody values people below the median income or honesty in a politician (or expects total honesty) for a couple examples. As Russell said, "unless you agree on the basics, no dialogue is possible."

[rwenos]

18. No Such Assumption - And a Question for YOU

The initial post makes no such assumption. How curious you would try to change the issue. The point is that Hillary has fought "the good fight," but now cannot win. Further pressing her candidacy becomes corrosive to Party interests and hopes for a General Election win. Many people think she's crossed it.

Aren't YOU assuming that Hillary's gaining the nomination by arm-twisting super-delegates, after getting fewer votes in valid primaries, will have no effect on the general election? Common sense would appear to dictate otherwise. Unless of course you want to trash the various constitutional amendments changing presidential elections, and go back to the Senate electing the President.

[Thurston Howell III]

19. Thank you. You make too much sense for some people.

[maddiejoan]

22. Call me old fashioned

when neither candidate has a mathematical ability to have the required number of pledged delegates, than according to rules of our Party --it is up to each candidate to make their best case for nomination.
If this was not the case --then the rules would have simply stated the candidate with the most pledged delegates won in the Primaries wins. There is a reason, however, that this is NOT the case --

--and we are witnessing it.

The one seeking, at this point, to change the rules is you.

[Thurston Howell III]

26. True. But this election is too important. We have had many blown elections

because the party was not unified.

[maddiejoan]

92. Then it's time for Obama to get out of the way

I want a real Democrat in the Whitehouse.

[wileedog]

36. Pledged delegates

Representational Democracy is a bitch.

[lligrd]

3. I Don't Think She Or Many Of Her Supporters Care nt

[Thurston Howell III]

6. They are what's destroying the DP!

[Metric System]

15. Maybe it's attitudes like yours that are destroying the Dem party and causing division?

[Thurston Howell III]

16. No it's attitudes like Hillary's that are ruining it. It's voting like Hillary's

that is ruining it! It's her and her DLC friends that are ruining it.

[jobycom]

7. And many of us feel that way about Obama. That's why we have elections.

When he's clinched, Clinton will be out. Until then, I'm glad we've got a real alternative to pretty speeches and no substance. Yes, your opinion is the opposite. Again, that's why we have elections. Why do you want to silence half the party?

[jlake]

10. Question: Why do you assume she'll have a chance to run in 2012?

[dailykoff]

29. Don't worry, she won't.

If you thought Kerry was damaged goods, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

[jlake]

31. I don't think Kerry is damaged goods..... and was asking a question

based on the "telling" wording of the OP

[dailykoff]

35. She won't run in 2012 because nobody will give her a red cent.

Even her Halliburton buddies know a bad deal when they see one.

[jlake]

38. My point was that the OP seems to assume Obama won't be elected....

[Thurston Howell III]

33. She blinded by it all. She does not understans she is damaging herself and

her carreer.

[dailykoff]

39. Based on past actions, she knows damn well what she's doing.

She's trying to take out Obama and any reasons you want to come up with to explain (and I'll keep mine to myself) are disgraceful.

[Thurston Howell III]

42. We agree. Thanks.

[Stephanie]

11. She should wait until 2016.

And in the meantime she should mend her ways.

[Thurston Howell III]

17. I know. She should think more sritically about herself and how she blew

healthcare before she thinks someone else is not up to it.

[KingFlorez]

20. This is a primary election, they can go on long sometimes

For once, we have a real race and not just a short one that ended after the first few primaries. The voters in many states finally have been able to have a say and that's a good thing. It might be hard for her to win now, but in politics sometimes people overcome long odds.

[Thurston Howell III]

23. Thanks for your response. I got to say that if Obama was this behind

I would be saing the same thing. BTW, in the primaries my candidates went from Richardson - Edwards - Obama. I stopped donating to Richardson after it became apparent that he wasn't moving. Same thing with Edwards with the $$. It damn near killed me but, hey, what can you do?

[defendandprotect]

21. Or maybe she does . . . ???

After all, that's pretty much the purpose of the DLC . . .
to move the Democratic Party from its ideals of equality and democracy ---
to move the party to the right -- to have the Democratic Party be even more like the GOP!

[Thurston Howell III]

25. Good point.

[better tomorrow]

24. She realizes.....

and she doesn't care. The nightly news picked up on it tonight. They said she will fight to the end and take it with her if she can't have it. I think that is why the primaries in MI and FL are being cancelled. The DNC HAS to do something now. I think after PA it will be over. They will let her win to keep her complacent but I think they know what they have to do.....

[Thurston Howell III]

28. On the news? Wow. That's bad if they pick up on it.

She will destroy everyone and the party. I hate to see what going to happen after the GE.

[Diane R]

27. Oh, she realizes, alright. This is her dream come true; if she can't win, no Dem can win.

[Thurston Howell III]

30. It's so funny that a woman with her intellegence and "experience" doesn't see

that she could come back in 2012 and maybe win it. But see has to drop out now.

[dailykoff]

32. I think she's already blown her 2012 chances.

It's now or never and that means, thank God, never.

[Thurston Howell III]

37. I just can't believe she doesn't realize this. I can, but I can't.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cornermouse]

60. That is a despicable thing to say about any candidate.

[11 Bravo]

74. That's a horseshit thing to say.

Or is it just your way of "uplifting and unifying" us?

[better tomorrow]

43. that's ok. they want Jeb Bush in 2012....

Mama Barbara refers to him as number 45.......won't that be a hoot if a Clinton runs against a Bush? We will have NO choice for sure then......

[PatGund]

85. And after Jebbie, Chelsea??

Got to keep the dynasty going after all....

[JVS]

34. She might already be gunning for 2012,

By kneecapping Obama

[Thurston Howell III]

40. If she actually believes that thenshe is foolish. No one will want her now.

[rodeodance]

44. the OP is an arrogant piece of crap

[jlake]

46. Seconded!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[rodeodance]

66. :-)

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rwenos]

48. Now you HAVE Made an Assumption!

Think about it a minute. For the critic to take your advice, what MUST be true?

:-)

[Thurston Howell III]

49. Hmm. Good point.

:rofl:

[SammyWinstonJack]

77. ...

:thumbsup:

[Life Long Dem]

52. I think your right.

She seems like she is in another world. She is behaving like she has been elected - all presidential like.

[Political Heretic]

53. I think she does realize and does not care.

I went from neutral, even perhaps supportive of her in the beginning to feeling totally betrayed by her inability to put party and country ahead of our own fricken ego.

She's not going to get the nomination - under any short of miraculous scenario, but she'll damn well stay in and rip the nominee to shreds before he gets to the general. Hell, maybe she's already got her sights on a McCain victory and a run in 2012. Where a year ago I would have flamed anyone who suggested such a thing, now I think its totally possible.

I've never been more thoroughly disappointed with any democrat before. There are worse democrats - Zell Miller, Lieberman - but I knew they sucked.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raine]

55. She knows, she just doesn't care

she wants to run in 2012 and if Obama gets in she has to wait 8yrs instead of 4yrs.

[bowens43]

56. not only the party but the country.

she is doing her best to ensure that we lose the senate and elect McCain president. She's knows that she will never be president and she intends to get her revenge.

[JTFrog]

57. She. Does. Not. Care.

She is perfectly aware of what she is doing.

What you should wonder is why. Why the desperation to get back to the White House by tearing down the party and taking away our first real opportunity to move beyond our country's tragic history?

Sinister and suspicious to the core.

[Major Hogwash]

58. Well, today is the anniversary of the Iraq War, 3990 killed, and she hasn't apologized yet

So, that right there tells you she is more like Bush than Obama!

[Medusa]

59. She does. She just doesn't give a fuck. She's pro-Hillary

not pro-Democratic.

[Perry Logan]

61. IRRATIONALLY DUALISTIC THINKING. Anyone who opposes my candidate is damaging the party. Whoa!

But I'm impressed by your mind-reading abilities.

[SoCalDem]

62. She does, but she doesn't care.. It's about winning.. any way you can

how you do it, doesn't matter..

Bill promised this to her.. and it's her turn, dammit..

[rodeodance]

67. You make an ASSumption when you state she does not care.

[C_U_L8R]

64. On the bright side, I believe she is making Obama stronger

and Obama will enter the General Election much better for it

[DemVet]

65. Damage? Give me a break.

She has just as much right to pursue the Democratic Nomination as Saint Obama. Obama will not have enough votes for the nomination, and then we can expect a nasty (yay!!!) floor fight for the votes. Be prepared for that.

[davidpdx]

69. It's telling that Clinton supporters are spreading the rumor

that Obama will drop out next week and she will pick Harold Ford Jr. as her VP nominee.

[Arkansas Granny]

70. I keep hearing people call for Hillary to drop out for the good of the Democratic party.

If the vote count of the candidates was reversed would you all be calling for Obama to quit the race when there was even a slim chance that he could still win the nomination? Something tells me that you wouldn't be ready for him to give up just yet.

[City Lights]

72. If the vote count were reversed, the primary would be over and Clinton

would be the nominee.

[Coexist]

73. I think she does

[IsItJustMe]

75. Sad to say, but like many others that have posted, I have come to the same conclusion that she does

know what she is doing, and for the sake of her own political ambitions (ego), she will continue to tear down Obama and the Democratic Party. It's sad, but it is what it is.

[Hepburn]

76. Of course she realizes it. She just does not give a shit. n/t

[paulk]

78. what about that part of the party that supports her?

It's 52-48 Obama right now, with some important races still to go. Hillary is supported by millions of Democrats and the race is not over, despite your desire for an early whistle.

It's our party, too.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

79. you don't like Democracy?

[cooolandrew]

82. I feel she does and doesn't care it is the world's bigest ever temper tantrum...

"give me the nomination or I'll scream and scream and scream till I am sick"

[krawhitham]

83. Then she does not have the vision to be President

[PatGund]

84. I think she realizes it

I think she doesn't care. The sense of entitlement that turned me off from her at the start is in full-force mode now. I believe she is completely willing to destroy the Democratic party if she does get what she considers to be her nomination and her presidency.

And if that means kneecapping Sen. Obama and supporting Sen. McCain, so she can run again in 2012, so be it. I honestly believe that, in her mind, not about what's best for the country, it's all about her.

[MadHound]

89. No, she realizes exactly what she's doing, she simply doesn't care

She's willing to sacrifice everything including the party on the alter of her ego and ambition. That's been apparent to me for a long while, which is why I can't vote for her.

[McCamy Taylor]

90. People like Thurston Howell know how much harm they are doing the Democrats

with their splitter/baiter posts, I sometimes suspect.

[Cha]

91. What is she, Stupid?

Never mind don't answer.

[rodeodance]

93. I think that

it is BO who has done the Party harm.

http://bp3.blogger.com/_vH5f59Og-Sc/Rsk8dPZMnAI/AAAAAAAAA7g/JRs1kzPFYOU/s320/rove+obama.jpg

[FuzzySlippers]

96. ...

:kick: