So...are the photo's true or not? If you read New Yorker Piece they are..

[KoKo]

if you listen to DU folks who visit the "Porn Sites" they are "open to discussion."

I don't know about "Porn" sites. I don't visit them and won't now. I don't want "porn cookies" in my browser that I have to deal with.

BUT...I know that I respect the "New Yorker Magazine" and Hersh. I don't want to have to support his article or deny it by posting my "familiarity with porn sites."

I don't like "porn." I think it's bad stuff. I think when you go to those sites you are being "used."

But...that's just me. Obviously those "familiar with those sites" can add some comments to the "usual" DU dissecting of information that we get with skepticism.

But, I won't go there. The "photo's" are enough if they are from a reputable site like "New Yorker." Do I really need to vist the "porn sites" to know that TERRIBLE/GROTESQUE stuff is going on in Iraq?

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

[papau]

1. In a world of photoshop, who knows if real? But the guards letter is

real - and while not as graphic - he says in the letter that the military intel folks in that section of the prison were without ethics, morals, control, or humanity.

[DoYouEverWonder]

8. Sorry, you can't fake this shit

at least not in Photoshop.

Besides the GI's in the pics have been identified and are facing disciplinary action for these acts.

[w13rd0]

2. Not only that...

...but you have some of the persons involved either admitting it, or blaming it on others, and reports and investigations. The members saying that these are "fakes from porn sites" are in deep denial or something. That or they are being subjected to selected disinfo for the purposes which disinfo is intended.

[KoKo]

7. There may be some of that, I agree to most of what you say...however,

I don't want to discount DU'ers who do "independent research" on Porn sites, because I believe in my heart that you need to view ALL SOURCES...I'm just saying that, in this instance, I will go with Hersh, but I also think that we have some bright folks here on DU,and if they know and are "familiar" with Porn Sites, and think this could be bogus, I will listen to them to the extent they can "PROVE" their allegations.

I worry that all of us know that there are "FEMALE" violations in Iraq, but that if it gets relegated to just the "usual porn" the violations of Females will take a back seat to the photo's of "MALES" in subjugation photos.

I know that DU'ers have posted photos of FEMALES being subjected to atrocities in Iraq, but they've been attributed to "Porn Sites."

I don't know the truth of it all. But, that Males being subjected to "inhumanities in the Islamic Culture being compared as worse than FEMALES being raped in these Prisons (when we know that Women and Children were there in that Prison) seems to be a question of which is the worst Violation/Tragedy.

Or can't we say that we KNOW that ATROCITIES are being COMMITTED AGAINST any "designated Iraqi Dissenter."

So ALL ATROCITIES ARE BAD! :shrug:

[Wonk]

3. Thanks for the link to the Sy Hersh article. I hadn't seen that yet. nt

[DAGDA56]

4. I was afraid this would happen...

...are some of the photos out there fake? I would say likely. Does one fake photo necessarily mean they are all fake? NO! Unfortunately to lump the horrible but legitimate photos from The New Yorker in with what you are calling "porn", or even the b&w photos of the British soldiers might encourage people to discount the whole lot.

[MoonRiver]

5. All I know is

that "the U.S. military brought criminal charges against six soldiers, which could lead to courts-martial. The charges include indecent acts with another person, maltreatment, battery, dereliction of duty and aggravated assault." Those pictures may or may not depict the crimes, but the crimes were real and the military has solid proof of that. In addition, "U.S. officials said that the military is weighing disciplinary action against the Army general who was in charge of the Abu Ghraib prison."

This is from Yahoo News.

[KoKo]

9. Agree! but this is dependent on Hersh's article. Other DU'ers will go

off on their own. That's their right and as a :tinfoilhat: DU'er, I can't deny the right to be skeptical.

I just wonder when our "sketpticism" discounts "Everything" as opposed to "Somethings." :shrug:

[MoonRiver]

11. I don't think the criminal charges have been fabricated.

It's being discussed on every media source there is!

[KoKo]

14. Tinoire has an exellent post where she talks about Female Atrocities up

right now. Heres the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1517119

[KoKo]

10. I agree....it's what I know from sites I know.

:shrug: I'm open to discussion, but we KNOW what we KNOW....that's BAD ENOUGH!

[Submariner]

6. From Democrats.com

See the rape torture further down. If it's photoshopping....he/she is good at it.

http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/iraqi-pow

[KoKo]

12. Oh...I think rapes have occured all over Iraq. If you read any history

you know the women are first. It's when men are brutilized that the stuff "hits the fan." I understand this. And, am in no way trying to say which is worse: Women or Men being "brutalized in war.

But, I think when males are brutilized it's more shocking because in most cultures it's more expected that females are victims and not males.

The Men of Iraq should have been treated much differently because we "invaded Iraq to Liberate the Iraqi's" is what our P-Resident told us whether we hate him or love him...he is our "acting" President.

If the P-Resident LIED to us then ALL OF IT is WRONG! All of it!

Iraqi Women and Men Brutalized and Children bombed losing limbs and Parents and Family. And the utltimate is that even their medical care is compromised by the dire circumstances they are living under.

I, in my gut know that for every Iraqi Male whose suffered there are probably more Iraqi Females who have been "used" by the Chimps War of Agression and Occupation.

All are WRONG!

[KoKo]

13. Yes...I saw that, and the British photos. It is hard to know if something

has been "photshopped" or not. I think I believe that horrible stuff is out there no matter if some of it's "doctored" or "not."

Whatever. We knew this would happen. The possiblilites were greater if America went in on it's on, but since we need to use the "Private Contractors" and it's been so long since WWII, one had to know that there would be atrocities.

We need to be taught again, what it means about "Criminal War Acts."

What is justifiable, and what isn't. In today's terms. We need to come to grips with what "WAR" does. And, not in the Patriotic Terms of WWII, but in the new wars that our leaders want to bring us into. Under he new scenario of "Endless Wars Against Terrorism."

They changed the "engagement.: WE, the PEOPLE, need to define what "terms of engagement" mean. And that means a new definition of Geneva Convention.

If America is now operating under "Bush Doctrine of Pre-Emptive Strick" then we need new rules for American Presidents to obey. And all countries to obey. Some consensus. Just MHO, here. for what it's worth.

[nonconformist]

16. My opinion on the rape photos at this site

Obviously, the pictures that aired on CBS are legit. I don't even think the military is denying that.

The rape pictures are another story, IMO.

For one, this doesn't really look like US BDU uniforms. Most, if not all, of the soldiers in Iraq are wearing desert BDU's, not jungle, anyway.

Two, US military usually cinch up the bottom of the pant legs to go up over the boots. These pics all show straight-leg, uncinched pants. In all the years I had lived on Army bases, I never once saw a soldier without their pants cinched up on the bottom.

Three, look at the 8th rape pic. Obvious photoshop, look at the "soldier" on the right's knee.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

15. Mostly, no one is saying the ones in the Hersh article, which are

the same ones from 60 Minutes, are fake. The site linked in post #6 contains additional photos which appear to depict rape of females, that are thought to be pornography not from Iraq. These are the photos that many people question. Not the ones with the hooded man with the electrical wires, or the female soldier grinning at the pile of naked male Iraqi prisoners, etc.

[minkyboodle]

17. exactly

those photos that you refer to look really fake to me. The ones of the males being abused are definitely real. Its the gang rape photos that seem fake to me.
Scott