If Martin Luther King had been Obama's minister for 20 years,

[pnwmom]

the Rethugs would have said HE was too inflammatory. Some notable quotes:

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/martin_luther_king_jr.html

It is incontestable and deplorable that Negroes have committed crimes; but they are derivative crimes. They are born of the greater crimes of the white society.

A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.

Law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress.

Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed.

The Negro needs the white man to free him from his fears. The white man needs the Negro to free him from his guilt.

A riot is the language of the unheard.

_______________________________________________


On the other hand, Martin Luther King never said anything like "damn America." That is a statement by Wright that I think really crossed the line.

[Saturday]

1. Your candidate has already denounced Wright's words. What's your point?

That BO would have rejected MLK?

[nickn777]

3. The disconnect with the Wright apologists is hilarious...

Even Obama has denounced Wright's rhetoric, yet they continue to defend it. Now they are comparing Wright to MLK, but will again have to figure out a way to answer the question you asked.

[LanternWaste]

14. Doesn't appear to me that the comparison was between Wright and King...

Doesn't appear to me that the comparison was between Wright and King, but merely particular statements made by the latter fitting into and then illustrating by contrast the larger context of what may or may not be inflammatory depending on bias and perspective.

Note: I'm not an Obama supporter.

[pnwmom]

24. Thank you, LanternWaste for the analysis. Yes, that is what I was trying to

get at. But you put it much better than I would have.

[pnwmom]

4. Who's my candidate? That's news to me.

Like Margaret Cho, I'm officially bi-candidate.

Yes, Obama has denounced the offending statements of Wright. But my point is that it would probably be hard to find a black minister working in the tradition of MLK who hasn't, at some time, made some statements that could be offensive to whites.

[jasmine621]

6. Truth is offensive to many whites, at least in my family. nt

[baldguy]

13. The point is the MSM only repeats the same 10-sec clip out of Wright's 20 yrs of sermons.

Anyone can - and will - be taken out of context if their opponents can score some political points from it.

It's hypocritical to hold one candidate to an unreasonable standard without doing the same to the other candidates.

[MethuenProgressive]

2. Dr. King is to Pastor Wright what the ocean is to a rain drop.

Equating the two is beyond all reason.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. I Addressed This In Another Thread

You have to be historically ignorant or have a heart of stone to suggest African American folks don't have legitimate grievances...My problem with Reverend Wright is his focus on the problem, racism, and not the solutions which are equity, opportunity, and respect...

Black folks want what folks (everywhere) want; a good job, a safe neighborhood, respect, and hope for the future...

I don't think it's productive to focus a person or a people on their problems without offering solutions...

[pnwmom]

8. While Wright certainly made some deplorable statements -- the one about

"damn America" being at the top of my list -- he also has made positive, uplifting sermons. It is not as if Obama sat there, week after week, listening to hate speech.

[ClassWarrior]

19. No solutions?

To a minister, the ONLY solution is accepting Jesus...

:shrug:

NGU.

[EffieBlack]

25. How do you know what Rev. Wright has focused on?

I think all you know is what the MEDIA has focused on - a handful of 30 second soundbytes.

Rev. Wright, in fact, IS focusing on everything you're suggesting he should. He and his church and his parishoners do incredible work in the community, providing job training, helping the homeless, educating children, offering daycare so mothers can work, etc. They are working on solutions every day, yet their efforts have been ignored by the larger media and political community - like many black people in our society, they have been invisible and only become visible because of controversy.

Rather than assume what Wright is and is not focusing on based upon some misleading clips, please learn more about what he is actually doing.

[ClassWarrior]

7. Have you ever even been to a church?

Being told the entire human race is damned to eternal hell comes with the territory, no matter what race the preacher is.

NGU.

[pnwmom]

9. Yes, I have, and no, you're wrong.

The message of the Christian denomination that I have attended is about grace -- not damnation.

And it isn't about the special damnation of America.

[ClassWarrior]

17. Gotta have damnation first to have grace.

I'm guessing it's awhile since you've been to church.

NGU.

[pnwmom]

20. I've never been to a fire and brimstone church.

But you're guessing wrong. I'm an active Catholic, and I've never heard a priest discussing damnation.

[ClassWarrior]

22. So then why does your church tell you to accept Christ? Because he's a nice guy?

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

26. I'm serious. If you're saved at your church, what do they tell you that you're saved from?

NGU.

[pnwmom]

27. From your sinful nature. n/t

[ClassWarrior]

30. And if you give in to your sinful nature, what do you get?

NGU.

[pnwmom]

31. Separation from the love of God. n/t

[ClassWarrior]

32. And what's the consequence of that? Or is there no consequence?

NGU.

[pnwmom]

34. That IS the consequence. n/t

[ClassWarrior]

35. Do you call Christ "the Savior" in your church?

NGU.

[pnwmom]

37. Yes, he saves us from our sinful nature. We're going in circles here.

Sorry, but I'm done with the theology lessons. Your idea of Christianity is clearly a very narrow one.

[ClassWarrior]

39. Do you pay attention in church?

:rofl:

If understanding one's religion is a "narrow" idea of it, then yes, I have a narrow idea of it.

NGU.

[pnwmom]

44. I don't go to YOUR church.

You think your church is the only one, obviously.

[ClassWarrior]

47. You said you go to a Catholic church.

The concept of damnation and salvation is universal within that denomination. :shrug:

NGU.

[pnwmom]

50. In more than 40 years of hearing sermons, I've never heard a priest threaten

anyone with damnation. Or preach about the fires of Hell.

But I have heard many priests speak about the mysteries of God's love and God's grace.

It's curious, as a complete outsider, how much you think you know about Catholics. (By the way, you could start by learning something about Vatican II.)

[Selatius]

51. If you don't accept Jesus as your savior, then you are damned to hell to burn for eternity.

But you can save yourself from that awful fate by accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior.

I know the whole fucking sermon. I was born Catholic, and I am now a collapsed Catholic. I know many a priest who has talked of damnation if not in the pulpit than elsewhere about what happens to the heathen. I grew up wondering what happened to people if they didn't accept Jesus Christ, so I asked. They are not saved from what I learned. The Catholic Church as a whole doesn't push the fire and brimstone like some Protestants in the vein of Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, but if you don't accept Jesus as your Savior, well, heaven isn't where you end up.

[ClassWarrior]

41. Then what is the result? What does "separation from the love of God" mean?

What is the result of being separated?

NGU.

[pnwmom]

45. Loss of Love. n/t

[ClassWarrior]

46. What does that mean?

I know plenty of unbelievers who have love.

NGU.

[pnwmom]

49. Good for them. n/t

[LanternWaste]

48. Seems a bit more valid to say that one needs grace first...

Seems a bit more valid to say that one needs grace first to have damnation if grace is defined in the classical sense of separation from the Holy.

Cause, then consequence rather than consequence, then cause.

[Evergreen Emerald]

10. Wright is no MLK

Wright says that the government created AIDS to get rid of black people. His rhetoric is beyond "grievances."


But the issue for me is that Obama is lying about his relationship with the REverend. 20 years and he had no idea? BS. He is lying.

[nickn777]

12. Obama: "I don't think my church is particularly controversial." n/t

[Texas Hill Country]

23. These types of views are VERY VERY common, almost a requirement, in the black prophetic liberation

theology churches. People choose these churches because they believe these things to be true.

[JPZenger]

11. People forget many of MLK's Initiatives

Yes, many people forget many of Martin Luther King's initiatives. In their minds, he is remembered for a few touchy-feely speeches.

He stood up to Mayor Daley in trying to end horrible housing discrimination that forced Blacks to pay more for inferior housing. He argued strongly against the Vietnam War before that approach was popular. Many people tried to convince him to shut up. When he was murdered, he was seeking better pay and benefits for garbage collection workers in Memphis.

----
Rev. Wright's comments need to be taken in context. Yes, an old man said some horrible things in the 2 minutes selected for broadcast on TV. However, what did he say in his other 4000 hours of sermons?

[pnwmom]

15. You're right. MLK, Jr. was far more controversial in his time

than many people now remember. As the decades pass, so many of his words have faded from our national consciousness that he's almost an honorary white man.

:sarcasm:

[RememberWellstone]

16. That was then

and this is now, we've come along way since that time. Someone needs to move on and discover this country is'nt like it was 40 years ago. At some point, you cannot use the excuse of the past to move on to the future.

[pnwmom]

18. Maybe you'd feel differently if you were living in the projects in Chicago. n/t

[Tatiana]

29. You're obviously not a person of color.

In some ways this country is different than it was 40 years ago, but in many ways it's the damn same. We wouldn't have the Justice Department still prosecuting violations of Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 if people had truly "moved on."

[pnwmom]

33. And we wouldn't have had the horror of the Katrina aftermath

if people had truly moved on.

[Texas Hill Country]

21. The Comparison of Wright and MLK is difficult... it has been 40 years, and tho there are still big

probs, this is a different America than it was in the late 50's and early 60's.

[pnwmom]

28. Don't forget where he's preaching. Those areas of Chicago

haven't improved a whole lot.

[Texas Hill Country]

36. I grew up near there, I am aware... BUT you dont see the violence against AA's like you did then

[pnwmom]

38. Violence? How about what we let happen after Katrina? The whole country

witnessed there how far we have NOT come.

[Texas Hill Country]

42. Was that racism or incompetence... I dunno.

I would tend to go for incompetence personally, or at least I want to think so.

[pnwmom]

43. Racism -- with regard to the Federal govt. response. If it were sheer

incompetence, then they would have been equally incompetent responding to disasters in Florida -- but they weren't.

[goldcanyonaz]

40. Malcolm X would be a better comparison to Wright. Wright is NO MLK.