Want to see the destruction of the Democratic Party?

[Laelth]

You probably will if we DON'T nominate Barack Obama.

We, the Democratic Party, cannot afford to alienate our most loyal voting block. If the super-delegates choose HRC at the Convention, they will, in effect, be saying to the African-American community that a black man, even one who has more pledged delegates and is winning the race for the nomination, is still not good enough to be President of the United States. We simply can not do that unless we seek the obliteration of our Party. For better or for worse, Barack Obama must be our nominee, and I think our super-delegates know it.

I think it's for the better, personally, but there's no point in debating it. We'd be better off figuring out how to insure an Obama victory in November.

The world is watching. We are the most multi-cultural and racially-mixed nation in the world. We suffer from racism, yes, but we're talking about it, dealing with it, resisting it, and trying to overcome it in a way that much of the rest of the world can not even begin to fathom. Most other nation-states are comparatively homogeneous. America leads the way in showing the world that a multi-cultural and multi-racial society can succeed. Yes, the world is watching, and I predict that there will be global dancing in the streets when Barack Obama is elected President of the United States. Part of it will be because GWB and the Republican Party are on their way out. A bigger part of it will be this; our electing President Barack Obama will signal to the world that we have come to accept the equality and equal human dignity of persons whose skin is not lilly white. In case you haven't noticed, that's most of the world. To the rest of the world, that will be a welcome change.

Unite and be at peace. :toast:

-Laelth


Note: Part of this has been posted elsewhere, but it never got any traction. Desiring some response, I made this idea into its own thread. Sorry if you've seen the argument before.

[MojoMojoMojo]

1. For better or worse?You dont seem too concerned about winning the GE

[geek tragedy]

2. Good luck winning without African-Americans.

If they stay home, Democrats lose Maryland and Pennsylvania and Ohio and Florida and Michigan and so on and so forth.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

14. Zero chance. Obama is our only hope.

[Bake]

58. Good luck winning without white Americans.

I think we're just fucked. Once again.

Bake

[Laelth]

63. I know you're worried, Bake.

Take a look at this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5088886

It will make you feel better. :toast:

-Laelth

[Bake]

66. I wish it did make me feel better.

But the 527's this time are going to make the Swiftboaters look like child's play. I read that thread, and I think it's just spin.

I think we're fucked either way.

And I miss Al Gore.

Bake

[Laelth]

68. Re. Al Gore: me too.

:(

-Laelth

[Laelth]

3. I am very concerned about that.

But I believe Barack Obama can win.

I have to accept, however, that Hillary's staunch supporters have some reason for supporting her. Many of them believe that Obama can not win the GE. I respect their opinion on that, but I disagree. I think Obama can and will win. My point, though, is that even if he can't win, it's useless to shill for Hill because our super-delegates can't give her the nod without destroying the party, and I think they know it.

Unite and be at peace. :toast:

-Laelth

[billbuckhead]

4. Good luck winning without working class whites and Hispanics

Many who will vote for McCain.

[Laelth]

5. Perhaps. Perhaps, not.

My point stands.

Unite and be at peace. :toast:

-Laelth

[Bullet1987]

9. Hispanics are not as important a bloc as African Americans

because they vote in mostly Rethug states anyway. If you look at the majority of so-called "swing states," there are areas the cannot be won without Black support. Ohio, PA, FL, etc.

[Usrename]

16. It isn't just blacks, it's literally millions of first-time voters.

I have no doubt that many of them would support Clinton if she were to actually win, instead of lose, this primary race.

There doesn't seem to be any way that she can do that, though. If the superdelegates overturn this contest, it will crush the movement.

I don't think that could be fixed for a generation. It would be the end of the party, which would suit some people fine.

I would even go so far as to say that if this were to happen, Obama should take a page out of his mentor's playbook and continue on as as independent. He'd win, for sure, in that scenario. The public is ready to say "a pox on both your houses." If the Dems do the unthinkable, they will suddenly find themselves held in even lower regard than the Rethugs, if that's possible.

[billbuckhead]

53. Hillary's opponent will win for sure as an independent?

:rofl: In the long run, the best thing that could happen is if he did that.

[Usrename]

55. I think he'd do a lot better than Ross Perot did.

I don't personally know too many people that are in love with either the Democratic or Republican Party.

Maybe you know a bunch. A third of the voters are not even registered with either party.

[Laelth]

57. Personally, I'm trying to avoid the destruction of the Party.

That's why I posted this OP. I'm asking the Hillary supporters to take a chill pill and help us win, for the good of the Party.

Obama has, following Dean's model and using the resources of the DNC, transformed and re-energized the state Democratic party structures of many of those "red states" he has won in the primaries. Those same grass-roots supporters will be the party structure if he's nominated. If he's not nominated, that structure and all that energy is wasted.

The Party, imho, is more valuable than any candidate it supports. That's why I am so darn adamant about protecting it and saving it.

-Laelth

[billbuckhead]

50. Hispanics dominate California, Arizona and Florida

Hillary's opponent won't win Pennsylvania and Ohio in the general election. Long term, Hispanics will have far more political power than blacks. New York City is the future of the new Democratic party driven by identity politics

[Hepburn]

54. And Calif has two Dem U.S. Senators and a majority of Dems in the House.

Yeah, we have Ah-nold, but that was a reaction to Gray Davis and Ah-nold is not exactly a Pubbie neocon. Most heavily Hispanic districts have U.S. Congressional reps who are Dems.

Sooooooooo....care to tell this Californian how the Hispanic vote makes Calif red???

:eyes:

[billbuckhead]

98. They won't vote for an unqualified black guy, they have no white guilt

Why do you think NYC has a non Democratic white mayor?

[Usrename]

11. Can you describe any plausible victory for Clinton?

I'm curious about what you think Hillary's path to victory really is.

How is she going to win this thing? Can she lose the delegate race, lose the popular vote, and somehow come away with a win from the convention?

And if she does manage somehow, this scenario helps the party how? She won't ever win a general if she does that, will she? Her negatives will be even higher than they were when this campaign started. A year ago, half the people in the country wouldn't vote for her. If she snakes the nomination away from a movement, one that won more votes and more delegates, then she'd be almost guaranteed to lose every state in the general election. Half of the people that can still stomach her now will never vote for her if she continues.

So, how does she get to the Whitehouse?

Do you have any plausible scenario?

[Laelth]

12. Just curious.

Has anyone since March 4 ever been able to answer that question? No?

Of course not because cheat, steal, cajole, muscle, lie, and threaten are the only ways HRC can do it ... oh, that and hope for a complete Obama meltdown.

That's what they were hoping the Wright story would be. I am not at all surprised to find that Obama went directly and forcefully to the media with a calm, honest response and handled it brilliantly, as usual.

He is something else. Truly.

-Laelth

[Usrename]

31. No.

I've made this same request, almost a dozen times, to some of the most ardent supporters.

Not a single reply, except for one person that admitted they were not so sure that she could win.

And I agree, Obama can put on a show. No one really laid a glove on him. And this was going to be the big, huge knockout punch.

The guy floats like a butterfly. He's a tactician as well as a strategist. He inspires a whole lot of confidence in me, too.

It's going to be difficult to go back to all the Muslim inuendo now. Everyone knows that he found Jesus. :)

[Laelth]

37. That's the most positive and ironic thing.

I hope every American hears Rev. Wright. No way to paint BO as a Muslim after that. Heck, it diffuses the whole terrorist-sympathizer argument. The result could be much better than expected. People are a lot more afraid of terrorists than loud-mouthed preachers.

:toast:

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--sloppy editing.

[billbuckhead]

52. Wright is a Farrakhan sympathizer, worst of all possible worlds

A Christian extremist who supports a Muslim extremist.

[BumRushDaShow]

81. Your circular argument will continue to go in circles.

The argument is so 1990s. Time to come back to the present. :eyes: No one is going to really care about 2, 70+ or near 70 year old religious men when their new homes are foreclosed yet their heating bill is still due for $500/month, their gas is $4 a gallon, their prescription medicine is hundreds of dollars per month, the pink slip was given to one of them while their spouse is barely getting by on 3 McJobs, and the largest banks in the country are failing. Meanwhile billions of dollars a month of their tax money is flowing into the pockets of Halliburton.

[Laelth]

99. Agreed. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[City Lights]

28. Pelosi went on the record today:

Pelosi's Delegate Stance Boosts Obama


March 14, 2008 6:08 PM

ABC News' Teddy Davis Reports: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi told ABC News' George Stephanopoulos on Friday that it would be "harmful" to Democrats if superdelegates were to give the party's presidential nomination to a candidate who is trailing in the delegates awarded in primaries and caucuses.

"If the votes of the superdelegates overturn what's happened in the elections," said Pelosi, "it would be harmful to the Democratic Party."

Although Pelosi offered her assessment without directly referencing Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., her comments lend considerable support to the Illinois Democrat.

<snip>

more... http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/03/pelosis-delegat.html

[Laelth]

30. That's the responsible thing for her to do.

She's the highest-ranked Democrat in the country. She can't endorse officially, but she can issue a warning when some person is harming the party, and that's just what she did.

Thanks for the link to that piece.

-Laelth

[City Lights]

36. You're welcome, and I'm glad she came right out and said it.

:-)

[Laelth]

40. I sent a letter to my uncommitted super-delegate congress-critter.

Earlier this week, made to him the argument I made above. Perhaps he has Pelosi's ear. I suspect I am not the only one who's reminding the Party who has its back. The leaders have to listen.

The super-delegates have only made this decision once before, in 1984. They chose the establishment candidate, Walter Mondale, over the popular candidate, Gary Hart. Look where that got us. I asked my congress-critter to learn from history and not make the same mistake twice.

-Laelth

[City Lights]

42. Good to hear you spoke up. I hope others will as well.

Being in IL, my other Senator and Congresswoman are already on board with Obama, but I have called/written to voice my opinion on the possibility of the SDs overturning the pledged delegates. I've also written to the DNC. They need to know we're paying attention and will hold them accountable. :-)

[Laelth]

45. I have been working on the other attorneys in my building.

I distributed copies of my letter. From my experience, congress-critters pay special attention to letters on an attorney's stationery.

;)

-Laelth

[City Lights]

46. Good idea. Especially about the letterhead!

:thumbsup:

[CitizenLeft]

38. thank you for that.

Considering her position, that's probably as close to an endorsement from her as he's likely to get.

[City Lights]

41. You're welcome. I liken it to a shot across the bow.

:D

It really is time to face reality.

[Laelth]

43. Good analogy.

I wish Pelosi had gone farther to explain why the popular vote is meaningless and irrelevant. Measuring by popular vote seriously under-represents caucus states where many fewer people show up to caucus. In the primaries the popular vote means less-than-nothing.

-Laelth

[Unsane]

60. Was this before or after Pastorgate?

[City Lights]

67. Since she said it Friday, I'll go with *during* Pastorgate.

I don't see a timeframe other than she told George Friday, and it aired on ABC World News last night. The full interview will air Sunday on This Week.

[Nitrogenica]

6. Obama can beat McCain. I have no doubt.

[Laelth]

8. McCain looks terrible on television.

I was convinced the money Republicans (the ones who control the party) knew they couldn't win when Romney (their candidate) pulled out. Even then they saw the writing on the wall.

McCain reminds me of Bob Dole in 1996, a tired, washed-up loser whom the Republican Party "owed" for selling his soul and being a loyal foot-soldier against his better instincts. So, they gave him the nod and let him run, knowing he was going to lose.



McCain lost to the worst President ever in 2000. Obama will clean his clock.

-Laelth

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

18. Like a drum.

[mmonk]

7. Unfortunately, going the kitchen sink route

took care of the prospect of a high AA vote turnout should she get the nomination no matter what was in Ferraro's heart. Now we're in a big predicament as republican sharks and the media move in. Do super delegates turn to her? Will she win it in the end? While caucasian dems may hold together for the common enemy, many in the black community might not turn out in huge numbers. This is not something I know by any means, but I feel could happen given comments I've heard.

[Laelth]

10. I don't think they can turn to her.

They have got to be able to see what I can see. The Party can not afford to alienate its most loyal block of voters.

If the party "machine" or the DLC wanted to knock Obama out of the race, they needed to do it long before now. At this point, it's too late.

And, again, I think this is great. I think Obama is an excellent choice (even if I did support Edwards, originally).

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--spelling, sloppy proofing. :(

[mmonk]

15. I'm hoping you're right.

She should make moves though at some point to repair any negative feelings that may have come about with the AA community.

[Laelth]

20. Absolutely.

To begin to heal the damage done and preserve the Clinton legacy, she must.

-Laelth

[Catherina]

75. I'll confirm it for you. Hillary has PERMANENTLY lost the Black vote

and if Obama is trashed with this racist shit, so has the Democratic Party. Normally I should be delighted about this because I left the party years ago but I'm not because it's opening up ugly wounds that White America never did anything to heal other than sanitizing Martin Luther King to make him palatable for the imperialists he was fighting before he got permanently shut up.

Time was healing wounds and now they're opening right back up. Good going Hillary and Hillary supporters.

None, not a single of any of my wide variety of friends, will vote for Hillary after this. And I've got a ton of them.

What Hillary has turned this into is

Hillary('s movement) doesn't like Black people

And it's already started.


http://uptownflavor.wordpress.com/2008/03/03/%E2%80%9Cfrom-kanye-west-to-barack-obama-black-youth-alienation-and-the-future-of-us-politics/">From Kanye West to Barack Obama: Black Youth, Alienation, and the Future of U.S. Politics"

Great going. The message we got from the FAUX outrage about one of our pastors doing a 2 second hump imitation of Clinton fucking Monica is that White America loves us when we sing in dance but throw a little truth in the lyrics and it's all over. And the only person to thank for this are Hillary and Bill who stirred up a hornets nest by playing the race card with their Latinos won't vote for a Black man shit.

She's permanently lost the Black vote. Now the question is does the Democratic party want to lose it too?

When Kanye and other Black entertainers get into this, it won't be pretty. I think the DNC is smart enough to know this and will yank her off-stage, Apollo style, pretty soon. This just became about a lot more than the 2008 election.

[Swamp Rat]

82. Obama earned 80 percent of the black vote in Louisiana, which make up 45% of the voting population.

He scored really big in New Orleans too.

I guarantee that if the super-delegates choose Hillary over Barack, most of us will stay home and McCain will win.

The deployment of the 'Southern Strategy' has permanently lost Hillary the African American vote here.

I do not a single Hillary Clinton sign in my and other neighborhoods.

[AlinPA]

13. Good post, but I don't yet completely buy into this sentence:

"....We suffer from racism, yes, but we're talking about it, dealing with it, resisting it, and trying to overcome it in a way that much of the rest of the world can not even begin to fathom..."
Things are not that far along in the U.S. The U.S. often talks a good game, but I'm not sure that the country is resisting it or dealing with it. I see more than subtle racism in PA.

[Laelth]

17. Like I said, there's plenty of racism here.

I haven't done that much world traveling, but I have found that Japan, France, and the UK are all vastly more racist than the US. It was hard for me to believe, at first, but it's true. Most societies suffer from racism. You'd be astounded, I think, at how enlightened Americans are about that particular issue.

As to many other issues, we're in the stone age. That I'll give you.

Thanks for the reply. :toast:

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--clarity.

[AlinPA]

19. I also noticed that the racism is predominant in older people. So we can

look ahead to our young people changing things.

[Laelth]

25. Yes, we can.

And if we elect Obama President, we will have worked to change things ourselves, leading the way.

-Laelth

[amborin]

39. try Brazil, too

[GoldieAZ49]

21. True, but the Super Delegates may have no choice but to select Hillary

If the white voting drops significantly, and their contributions drop as well, his campaign could slow so badly that Hillary is the only viable candidate

I think the AA community will react the same way you suggest

If this sticks in the minds of voters, regardless if it stops playing on TV, it is going to be tough

[Laelth]

22. His campaign has shown no signs of slowing down.

His donations are increasing. It's Hillary who's hanging on by a thread.

If by "this" you mean the Wright fiasco and the damning of America, yes. That hurts. But no use crying over spilled milk. Obama went to the media, directly and widely, to try to diffuse the issue. He handled himself brilliantly, imho. We'll see how well it worked.

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--clarity.

[GoldieAZ49]

23. yes, he knew he had to do damage control before the weekend

how well, we will see

[Texas Hill Country]

64. Man, this stuff has only really hit in the last 2 days... you cant say that!

We have no idea what kind of an effect the pastor and new rezko stuff will have!

[Laelth]

73. I readily admit that his campaign may suffer terribly.

We don't know anything yet. We'll know more in a couple of weeks.

I still feel that abandoning Obama now would be a mistake. The African-American community needs the support of the Democratic Party. It will not be taken well if the Party abandons Obama while the chips are down. It just sends the wrong message.

:(

-Laelth

[Texas Hill Country]

84. Are you suggesting that the Clintons don't support the AA community...

seriously????

[Laelth]

86. I think they would like to, and do so when it's politically expedient.

But take a look at Catherina's post (#75) above, and you might get a sense for how the AA community is reacting to Hillary's campaign.

It ain't pretty.

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--directionally challenged. :)

[unkachuck]

24. "...a black man....

....even one who has more pledged delegates and is winning the race for the nomination, is still not good enough..."

....if they steal this from Obama and hand it to clinton, I'm convinced the very next day, Obama will run as an Independent Dem....at least that should be his implied threat to the super-delegates....

[Laelth]

27. Ya know, that's an interesting question. What would he do?

My suspicion is that he would do the right thing, as he sees it. I think that he would remain loyal to the Party. I think he would bide his time and run again, perhaps in 2012, but this is pure speculation on my part. I have no idea what he would do.

:shrug:

-Laelth

[Usrename]

34. I'm not sure you can put a movement on hold for 4 years.

Things that are hot now would get a whole lot hotter. And we would become a lot more powerless to do anything about it.

Lieberman was his mentor in the Senate. (I just had to say that.) ;)

[Laelth]

35. LOL. Jomentum. I hear ya.

Let's just hope it won't come to that. I doubt it will.

-Laelth

[grantcart]

26. thank you for your post

We have no other but to be patient and to watch this sad little drama play itself out. I think that when and if the donations to HRC campaign goes down that she will make a great speech try to make it appear that she has sacrificed her 8 years as President for the good of the country. Leave with a $ 50 million war chest and pray for an Obama defeat so that she might still have her victory.

[Laelth]

33. My pleasure.

Thank you for your response.

I hope she can save her reputation and her legacy. If she takes some cash with her, more power to her. I hope she puts it to good use.

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--sloppy editing.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

29. stick your fearful threats where the sun......

[Laelth]

32. LOL. Threats? Who's threatening?

Help us win, please. That's begging, not threatening.

Unite and be at peace. :toast:


-Laelth

[AtomicKitten]

44. Barack is winning by any measure and the Math has some bad news for Hilly.

I agree that he has won the nomination fair and square, a checkmate because it is virtually impossible for her to move ahead of him by any measure, and the shit will most definitely hit the fan if this is taken away from him. He is the future and a chance for a new direction. It will split the party irrevocably, a party I will have no further use for as they will have not served me nor my country well.

[Laelth]

49. I'll vote for Hill if she's the nominee.

I just don't think the super-delegates will give her the nomination. They must be able to see that it would be political suicide for the party to do so.

Thus, my call for unity. :toast:

Thanks for the response.

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--punctuation.

[NastyRiffraff]

47. Sorry Laeith, there's been too much trashing of Hillary and her supporters...

Not you in particular; I think you're one of the sane Obama supporters. But there are too many who get their jollies in mocking both HIllary and her supporters. I will vote for the nominee; many will not, for that reason. I want a Democratic victory, whoever he nominee is. It might be Obama; it might not be. I don't subscribe to the "vote for Obama or we'll lose." That only alienates Hillary's supporters further, and Obama certainly can't afford to do that, whatever he thinks.

There's a lot of bitterness, and there's going to have to be a lot of reaching out. Even then, I'm not sure it'll work. We're tired of being called racists, traitors, and stupid because we don't like Obama. I'll vote for him if he's the nominee, but I don't like him and I don't think I ever will. Sorry.

[Laelth]

48. I hear ya.

And I'm not trying to influence anyone's vote at this point (other than the super-delegates) because none of the remaining states matter. Neither candidate can garner enough votes to win the nomination outright. The super-delegates will have to make the decision.

There is a lot of bitterness, and with good reason. I have to admit that many of the new arrivals at DU are, to put it mildly, "trigger happy." ;)

Some Obama supporters attack me from time to time. Usually, I write this behavior off. I suspect many of these supporters are new to this online community and are trying to "score points" against the opposition. That's natural, probably, but irritating nonetheless. If I were a Hillary supporter, I think I would be quite frustrated, because "trigger happy" responses indicate a lack of concern and a lack of interest in open dialog. When someone responds in anger or too quickly they are communicating to you that they didn't listen to you. That's frustrating to say the least, and I am sure it feels worse when you're a Hillary supporter.

But the party needs this new blood. It takes a while to learn how to play nicely. I don't want to run them off, but I don't condone all their behavior, either.

And, just so we're clear on this, I am voting for Hillary in the GE if she's the nominee. Peace, and thanks for the reply.

-Laelth

[Little Star]

51. Many of us do not like being held hostage.

[Laelth]

56. I don't think anyone does.

But it would be unwise to defy political reality. If Obama were going to be knocked out of the race, it needed to be done before now. At this point, it's too late.

-Laelth

[Little Star]

65. I think I agree. Say hello to McCain in the general.

[Bake]

59. Obama will be the destruction of the party, if he gets the nom.

We'll be painted for a generation as the "God Damn America" party.

Bake

[GarbagemanLB]

61. and if Hillary wins she will be destroyed by her refusal to release her tax returns for the past 6 y

ears

[Bake]

62. Tax returns don't evoke the visceral response of "God Damn America"

They just don't.

Bake

[rodeodance]

69. Yes, Unite----time for BO to step down---

[Laelth]

70. He may do that--for the good of the Party.

I wish I could say the same for Hillary, but I don't believe she would ever sacrifice her own ambition for the good of the Party.

To some of us, that matters.

:(

-Laelth

[rodeodance]

76. there is zippo chance he will do that and you know it.

[Catherina]

79. I know. Damn uppity negro who lets his grandmama live in a "hut" n/t

[rodeodance]

87. I would never speak of Obama in those terms. SHAME ON YOU.

Damn uppity negro who lets his grandmama live in a "hut"

[Laelth]

89. He might. We'll have to wait and see.

As with Hillary, there are a lot of people who will be disappointed if he does. No telling what pressures he's feeling, really.

-Laelth

[Catherina]

78. He won't do it -- for the good of America.

If he does, say hello to the destruction of the American empire because the past and coming wars won't be forgiven by the rest of the world. The people in charge know that their only chance to resurrect America is to put a friendlier face on it and that face is a biracial Christian Black man's with a Muslim heritage who doesn't see the world through superior "entitled" White eyes.

Laelth. Have more faith in the party. They're a crafty lot determined to win and they know they can't win without the Black, youth, independent, antiwar and progressive vote.

[Laelth]

83. I'm afraid of 1984.

Similar scenario ... the establishment candidate, Walter Mondale, vs. a popular candidate, Gary Hart. Hart is caught in a scandal, and the super-delegates make the choice for the party. They go the "safe" route, and choose Mondale. We all know how well that worked. That's the only other time, since their inception, that the super-delegates have had to make the decision.

Things are different this time. Mondale was leading in delegates going into the convention, iirc. Here, Obama will be leading, but I agree with you that it would be a terrible mistake to abandon Obama at this stage.

And I think the super-delegates know it.

-Laelth

[DemVet]

71. This is nothing but a Repub tactic...FEARMONGERING!!!!!

Shameful.

[Laelth]

74. Point taken.

It is fear-mongering. I am genuinely concerned about the health and welfare of the party. I feel safe expressing those fears here.

Sorry if you're offended.

-Laelth

[flpoljunkie]

72. An insightful and well reasoned post, Laeith. Thanks.

[Laelth]

88. Thanks. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[Swamp Rat]

77. k&r

[suston96]

80. "If the super-delegates choose HRC at the Convention, they will, in effect, be saying.....

...... to the African-American community that a black man, even one who has more pledged delegates and is winning the race for the nomination, is still not good enough to be President of the United States."

Bullshit! They will be saying that he is not the right black man.

Just like "they have been saying... that Hillary Clinton is not the right woman....."

[Laelth]

85. I understand what you're saying.

Perhaps it's not fair, but that's how that message will be heard. Whether or not it should be heard that way is another matter.

It would be unwise for the Party to ignore this reality. It does so at its own peril.

-Laelth

[LWolf]

90. If Barack Obama is the best this party can do,

then the party is obviously due for major upheavals. I welcome any chance of either strengthening the left/liberal/progressive wing of the party, or deep-sixing the corrupt, dlc-centrist-corporate-3rd way party it has become.

I'd love to elect a person of color to the WH. Not Barack Obama. I'd love to elect a woman president. Not HRC. If I have to cast a protest vote in November, I may just vote for both in one package.

Barack Obama is not the savior of the party, or of the nation. He is a whole package of right-wing dogma that I've lived with my entire adult life.
Faith-based politics. Ronald Reagan. War on terror. Privatization. Fucking merit pay. He's too fucking republican for me, and if you think the Democratic Party needs to become more Republican to survive, then I say I don't want it to survive like that.

[Hawkowl]

91. Less Rethuglican than Bill

He's more progressive than Bill Clinton. He's more progressive than Jimmy Carter was. Probably less of a war monger and nicer person than LBJ.

I look at it as a baby step forward. We don't have a choice of a large step forward, only a step back (Clinton or McCain) or a baby step forward. So be it. At least we may inspire the tens of millions in this country and the billions in the world who are not whitey.

Also, I believe Obama will listen more than Hillary. We will need to MAKE him into a more acceptable president.

[LWolf]

92. I don't see him that way at all.

Perhaps it's the issues we are paying attention to; maybe you look at other issues than I do.

Of course, I'm not a fan of Bill Clinton, either. What I see, with either Obama or HRC, is a step forward, or no movement at all, for things I am opposed to.

I am opposed to the war on terror. I am opposed to war as an instrument of international policy.

I am opposed to NAFTA/CAFTA.

I am opposed to privatization.

I am opposed to NCLB.

I am opposed to the Patriot Act.

I am opposed to for-profit health care.

I could go on, but these are most of the key issues driving my vote.

[Laelth]

95. I am with you on every single one of those.

I admit that Obama's stated policy positions are not as liberal as I would like, and that's why I initially supported John Edwards. Frankly, I hope Obama is lying. I hope he's a die-hard liberal who has staked out moderate policy position for the sake of winning the election. I have no such hopes, on the other hand, for Hillary. I'm certain she's a die-hard, Republican-lite, DLC centrist, and I know that's not what I want.

-Laelth

[LWolf]

96. That's an accurate take on my reflections.

For too many, the best "hope" is that he's lying about his positions, because otherwise we have no hope.

I relate to those who choose to hope that he is more liberal than he appears; if he is elected, I certainly share that hope.

Because we all need hope, I've directed my hopes in a different direction: I hope for a brokered convention, where we end up with someone better than either. I know that hope is just as unlikely as I think yours is. :(

[Laelth]

97. Two things.

First, I was initially concerned about Obama because of all the money he took from special interests. I assumed he had been bought off (just like Hillary). But now, Obama has over a million individual donors, and he's generating plenty of money without relying on big donors. If so, he no longer has to do the bidding of the special interests who thought they had him bought off. He doesn't need their money any more. This is both revolutionary and dangerous to the establishment. That's why, I think, we're seeing a full-court-press to destroy Obama. He may be free to do what he feels is right rather than do the bidding of big business.

Second, consider that Obama is likely to have much longer coattails than Hillary. If Obama can pull 60% of the popular vote in the general election by delivering nothing but promises of hope and change, more power to him, because with that kind of vote, we'll have the 60 votes in the Senate that we need to pass through whatever liberal legislation we want. Then, even if Obama is a moderate (and he's probably not), and even if he has been bought off by the special interests, Congress can just dare him to veto whatever liberal legislation it can pass.

Either way, I think Obama is a better candidate for progressives.

Thanks for the response. :toast:

-Laelth

[LWolf]

100. These are interesting points that you make,

and I appreciate it. I will be pondering them as we get closer to the time when I will have to make a decision. Thank you!

[VotesForWomen]

93. give it up. nt

[Laelth]

94. Give up what? Trying to save the Party?

I don't think that's what you really mean. Would you mind clarifying for me?

:toast:

-Laelth