On NPR Hillary sets rules for FL and MI primaries. Says no other way is fair.

[madfloridian]

Hillary sets some rules for the primaries in Florida and Michigan.

Clinton Says Michigan and Florida Should Count

Clinton tells Inskeep that the Michigan and Florida pledged delegates should count because both are seen as key battleground states in the general election.

But if the national party does not agree, she says, the states should re-do the primaries.

"If there is to be any difference between my proposal that we count these votes and any other course of action, it should be a complete re-do of the primary and nothing else is fair," she says.

That must have been after she said positively no revote. That's a flip flop.

Clinton interview with US News

'On a "do-over" in Florida and Michigan, which held nominating contests that
broke Democratic Party rules

I would not accept a caucus. I think that would be a great disservice to the
2 million people who turned out and voted. I think that they want their
votes counted. And you know a lot of people would be disenfranchised because
of the timing and whatever the particular rules were. This is really going
to be a serious challenge for the Democratic Party because the voters in
Michigan and Florida are the ones being hurt, and certainly with respect to
Florida the Democrats were dragged into doing what they did by a Republican
governor and a Republican Legislature. They didn't have any choice
whatsoever. And I don't think that there should be any do-over or any kind
of a second run in Florida. I think Florida should be seated.'

Bill Nelson has his own ideas. His ideas seem to shift from one thing to the other. His position right now is this:

Florida Seeks Ways To Divvy Up Its Delegates

WASHINGTON Conceding that the idea of a mail-in presidential primary re-vote is all but dead, Florida Democratic leaders are now considering how to divvy up the state's convention delegates to give Floridians a say in the Clinton v. Obama race.

Sen. Bill Nelson and some state party leaders have proposed seating the delegation based on the Jan. 29 primary, but with each delegate getting half a vote instead of a single vote.

The effect would be to give Hillary Clinton a margin of 19 Florida delegates over Obama, instead of 38.

There are indications, however, that neither campaign is ready to agree to that. A Nelson spokesman said neither Clinton nor Barack Obama immediately agreed when Nelson suggested it to them in a conversation on the Senate floor Thursday. Nelson is a Clinton backer.

But wait a minute. No one ever quotes the Florida Democratic party chairman, Karen Thurman. She has this to say.

Floridians React

Florida's Democratic Chair, Karen Thurman, is expected to make an announcement Monday as to whether a re-vote will take place, and in what manner, but it seems that officials may be as torn as the opinions we got on the street from Floridians.

Meanwhile in Michigan officials say they are "close" to having a plan for a new presidential primary. It will need the approval of both the Clinton and Obama campaigns. Congresswoman Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick says a statewide primary would be held June 3rd.

She will make an announcement Monday, but she is not sure what it will be yet.

The courts may take it out of all their hands. There is a hearing in Atlanta Monday about the Florida delegates. Once again we are seeing the courts involved in Florida's elections.

Florida Democrats invade Georgia

Atlanta could become the center of the political storm on Monday when a federal appeals panel hears a lawsuit that seeks to force the Democratic National Committee to seat all of Florida’s delegates at the party’s national convention in August.

The suit was filed in August in Tampa on behalf of Floridian Victor DiMaio. It claims the DNC violated his constitutional rights when it stripped Florida’s Democratic Party of all 210 of its delegates to the convention as punishment for holding its Jan. 29 presidential primary earlier than DNC rules allow.

The suit was rejected at the district court level in Tampa, but the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta has agreed to hear the case.

It is really just so odd. The DNC has always been the governing body that handled the party primaries. This time things seemed to have changed. Just in case any decision is left up the DNC, Howard Dean has presented some very good thoughts on the topic.

"We will beat John McCain if we're united and, in order to be united, the loser of the race has to feel like they've been treated fairly within the rules.
t's how you keep the party united. So that's the number one thing. We will follow the rules. Both parties, both Michigan and Florida, have an opportunity to either have some sort of process that is within the rules or simply appeal to the credentials committee. But we are going to follow the rules that were voted on by all 50 state a year and a half ago." (CBS's Face the Nation with Bob Schieffer, 3/9/08)

But, look, this is a big -- bigger issue than Florida and Michigan. We have a very close contest between two people who are likely to be elected President of the United States, whichever one wins the nomination. I have to run these rules so that the losing side feels they've been treated fairly."(ABC's This Week with George Stephanopoulos, 3/9/08)

When these states come before us with proposals, we're going to go to both campaigns and work with them. They're going to have to accept these, because we're going to need all their followers. We can't have half the Democratic Party walk out thinking there was some deal cooked, and that's why their person didn't win. So we're going to go to both campaigns and try to get them to agree to whatever Florida and Michigan propose as long as it's within the rules of the Democratic National Committee. But first we've got to have a proposal, and both these senators are working very hard on this with task forces and talking with the governors and so forth and so on." (CBS's Face the Nation with Bob Schieffer, 3/9/08)

From Karen Finney, DNC spokesperson via PR Newswire.

Meanwhile, a talking head in Florida felt it necessary to warn Governor Dean not to plan a Florida vacation anytime soon.

[Muttocracy]

1. I think there was an interview on New Hampshire PR too?

Saw posts about that earlier this week but I don't have the link in hand.

[madfloridian]

2. I will look it up if I can. Funny how the DNC doesn't count anymore.

Ain't it amazing?

[Muttocracy]

3. found it - think this is from before NH, thus the interview there

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5063000#5063660

[madfloridian]

5. Thanks, I was just searching. Saved me the trouble.

It even has the audio of her saying MI doesn't count. I have not heard it, need to listen.

[papau]

14. When Dean went beyond 50% count of FL/Mich and became Obama fan - DNC became

of less interest to half the party. If Dean (it was Dean's decision to increase the penalty to 100% loss) had kept the punishment at the expected take away half of the delegates we would not be discussing a do over.

by the way - when did Hillary say - "said positively no revote" ?? I can only find her giving opinion that she felt there should be no revote - I find nothing that says "Positively"

[madfloridian]

16. Dean was not at the meeting...but Florida lied to the committee.

They just plain lied.

I hope if Hillary gets the nomination with these tactics that enough stay on board to vote in the general.

I sure do hope the hell so.

[Cha]

4. hilary can't be trusted so her saying something is

"fair" means she and mark penn are setting their steel traps. Obama and team are too smart for hilary the dunces.

[madfloridian]

6. I have said for a long time it is the ones who surround her that I don't like.

I was really quite neutral about her at first. After all the caring about Dean in 04 and seeing what hsppened to him....I learned not to care so much.

But I knew Penn was trouble, just like Wolfson. I was right. We all were.

Now I am so impressed with Obama it worries me that we will get hurt again.

[Cha]

10. I know you were "neutral" ..I remember the

early days of this primary when we were getting to know the candidates. hilary was never an option for me since her vote on the IWR as my Senator(who was becheeched by us not to vote "yes") and subsequent sabre rattling to look "tough" for this pres run in 2008.

I was rootin' for Edwards because I thought he was sincere about his change in heart on all his previous stands. I know people are capable of having epiphanies. I didn't really know that much about Obama even when Oprah had her big campaign show down in South Carolina but from defending him against hilary's supporters on DU, I became an accidental supporter who couldn't be happier the way it worked out.

You were so right about penn and wolfson..I had no idea what lurked in their bag of tricks. I just felt hilary was fake the whole time.. so what can a campaign manager do when all they have is straw?

All we can do hang in there and know we have someone who is capable of doing this. :hi:

[PinkTiger]

31. Well, get over it.

He puts his pants on one leg at a time....

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

8. If Hillary says it's fair, you can be sure it's not fair.

[Cha]

11. hilary takes her cues from

1984.

[madfloridian]

7. Damn! I hope this is spin. I hope Obama does not accept these terms.

"Obama allies had long suggested the best Clinton could hope for was a deal to evenly divide Florida's delegates to the nominating convention. Now, though, Sen. Bill Nelson and key players in Congress and on the Democratic National Committee are raising the possibility of allocating a portion of Florida's delegates based on the results of Florida's Jan. 29 primary, which could shrink Obama's overall delegate lead to anywhere from a handful to roughly 20 delegates.

"Florida can be in play in November, and we need to get this situation resolved," said Allan Katz of Tallahassee, an Obama supporter, superdelegate and DNC member. "If the Obama campaign is willing to make a small concession in order to get (Florida represented), it's not my decision to make, but it's something I would probably encourage."

Neither campaign has officially embraced the idea, and Obama supporters on Friday were skeptical the Clinton campaign wants to resolve Florida's Democratic primary problem. But the idea could provide a path to ending the dilemma before the national convention in August."

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/elections/article418095.ece

Alan Katz, I am surprised. That is going against the rules and catering to Bill Nelson.

[dansolo]

33. Actually, the written rules of the DNC call for halving the delegates

It was the DNC Rules Committee that instituted a harsher penalty of eliminating all of the delegates. For Florida, this would be the best option. The Clinton campaign can't complain, because they will pick up delegates in the deal.

[Rageneau]

9. Hillary and I are for hearing the will of the electorate in Fla and Mich.

It was not the fault of any individual voter in Fla or Mich that their vote did not count. Many, many people did all they could to cast their vote that day -- the Florida turnout broke all records.

Turn-out broke all records, over 2 million Democrats voted, and their votes don't count? What kind of anti-democratic crap is that?

There is NO way around it. The voters of Florida and Michigan must have their voices heard, or else the Democratic Party will be selecting its nominee in a very undemocratic way.

BTW, has anyone asked themselves this question: "What the hell was so damned WRONG with Florida and Michigan moving their primaries forward? What would that have hurt -- except the tinpot potentates of the DNC in Iowa, NH, SC and NV -- which are all smaller states by far than FLla and Mich?

[madfloridian]

12. Because FL is NOT the center of the universe. The other 48 states count a lot.

The arrogance is appalling.

Tampa op ed: "Arrogance Cost Florida Chance To Influence Election"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1875

[mhoran]

39. FL and MI officials knew the potential consequences of moving the primaries forward...

Short-sighted and arrogant. Oh, and stupid. What a foolish, unnecessary mess they've created.

[polmaven]

40. Yes, the "consequences" were known,

by FL and MI "officials".

What I struggle with, though, is the fact that, at least in FL, DEMOCRATS had nothing to say about it. The Democrats tried to push the date back to February 5, but the Republicans in the FL legislature far outnumber them. The amendment to move the date failed in the FL Senate (26-12, with one Democrat not present and one voting with the Republicans)and the bill was passed over their objections. The Governor....(also a Republican, remember) signed it into law.

I am struggling with the disenfranchisement of Democratic voters whose representatives had no choice in the matter.

Can someone tell me just what it was they were expected to do?

[madfloridian]

13. Hillary's FL fundraisers...big ones...are asking for money back from the DNC

It was Florida's fault, they worked with the GOP since 2006 to get this bill passed.

I am more and more thinking the FL and MI folks were meeting and planning, and that it was orchestrated with a campaign. There is more than one way to bring down a chairman, more than one way to skin a cat.

It might be time for some people who once thought going another direction but decided to stay and help rebuild....to make other plans.
Being careful what I say. It is ok to rip Obama to shreds here, ok to post things are just lies, but it is not ok to say that.

Here is what is appalling to me. Florida is organizing against Dean's chairmanship.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/15/us/politics/15donate.html?hp

Pushing to seat the Florida delegates, at least one top Clinton fund-raiser, Paul Cejas, a Miami businessman who has given the Democratic National Committee $63,500 since 2003, has demanded Democratic officials return his 2007 contribution of $28,500, which they have agreed to do.

“If you’re not going to count my vote, I’m not going to give you my money,” said Mr. Cejas, who was the United States ambassador to Belgium from 1998 to 2001.

Christopher Korge, a Florida real estate developer who is another top fund-raiser for Mrs. Clinton, held an event last year in his home that brought in about $140,000 for the national party, which was set aside in a special account for the general election battle in Florida. But he told committee officials this week that if Florida’s delegate conundrum was not settled satisfactorily he would be asking for the money back.

“If we do not resolve this issue,” Mr. Korge said, “I think it’s safe to say there will be a request for a return of $140,000.”

The anger from Clinton fund-raisers seems to emanate mostly from Florida, where the impasse appears farthest from resolution. Democratic Party officials in Michigan on Friday proposed a new primary election on June 3 to make up for the January election.

Should someone tell those fundraisers that Dean said ok to a revote? Do you think they would effing care?

I am more convinced all the time that though Obama is a much better candidate, that Hillary will win through sheer power and money.

[papau]

17. don't worry - I think Hillary the much better candidate but see O winning & not offering VP to Hill

[madfloridian]

18. I don't worry, I have really deep anger. Dean has tried to be fair.

Fair does not matter to the Clintons.

[papau]

19. mines a bit different view - fair would have been loss of 50% of delegates - but I understand

[Hippo_Tron]

41. I dunno what is fair, but loss of 50% of delegates would have been smart

The Republicans did this and they aren't having any problems.

[SwampG8r]

47. floridian here reporting on fairness

i didnt know til now that the DNC had set a penalty other than total loss of delegates
if the rules prescribe a 50 % loss then so be it
that seems more than fair
and dont fall for the rw legislature red herring
the vote passed 115-1
fla dems knew exactly what they were doing and did it anyway
our rep gov even now works to bring this to closure
hes a putz but in this he at least is trying
my only questions are
will the 50% remaining be apportioned by percentage of the result and if so where do edwards delegates go?

[MonkeyFunk]

27. Bullshit

There's nothing fair about it.

disenfranchising two states because.... um... no reason whatsoever. New Hampshire and Iowa got their prime spot. SC and NE got to go first.

This is about Dean trying to assert his authority and his bruised ego.

[Hippo_Tron]

44. Florida and Michigan screwed over the DNC at the 11th hour

If Iowa and New Hampshire's privileged status was a concern, they should have complained in 2005. Chances are they could have gotten dozens of other states to raise the same complaint and gotten them all to collectively move up their primaries. Dean would have had no choice but to cave on Iowa and New Hampshire's status.

Instead they signed onto the rules that said Iowa and New Hampshire could go before the window opened and other states could apply. Then they proceeded to move up their primaries in mid 2007 when the rules had been agreed to which really forced Dean's hand.

If Dean had not punished them, every single state could have moved their primary to whenever the hell they wanted it to be and the DNC would have no credibility. If people want a national primary day then that's fine. But the states that want to do that need to collectively decide that instead of having two states throw a last minute hissy-fit in hopes of making the DNC cave.

[madfloridian]

15. There are really some dirty tactics starting against Dean now.

They are making it personal. It would be easier for Hillary to have someone in there besides him. It would mean the end for Obama.

[CadenBlaker]

20. It wasn't the primary that drew the record turnout.

It's a fact that the reason they had a record turnout was because there just so happened to be a property tax issue tied to the primary. They still figured their vote didn't count and of course, without any campaigning, Hillary won by default. I feel she is dishonest and IF she does come out on top, I don't care what liberal hosts say, I think I may just sit this one out or vote for Nader again. In my mind, she has become no better than Karl Rove and the Republican party.

[Hippo_Tron]

45. There's record turnout all over the country because it's actually a race this year

But Florida and Michigan happen to be two of six states that Democratic turnout was lower than GOP turnout. The others are Arizona, Alabama, Alaska, and Utah. The first is McLame's home state, the other two Republicans outnumber Democrats by like 2 to 1.

[slinkerwink]

21. she reminds me of a child who throws over the Candyland game when she's losing

Fun times in babysitting, I tell ya....

[madfloridian]

22. Heh heh...hiya slinker.

Apt description....:rofl:

[Whisp]

29. I had an x husband who threw the Risk board when I was winning.

hopefully Hillary will be X.

[elixir]

23. Why don't you want Florida to re vote?

[madfloridian]

24. Ooops...comes a warning to FL from the head of the credentials committee

Video included.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/sfl-flfdems0315sbmar15,0,7109074.story?track=rss

"TALLAHASSEE - Florida Democrats got a stern warning Friday from the co-chairman of a group that will determine whether the state gets a say in the presidential race: Hold a re-vote, or risk not getting seated at the party convention to pick a nominee.

"It's the responsibility of the state Democratic Party to come up with a (re-vote) proposal that complies with the rules and has the support and the planning that's needed within the state," James Roosevelt, who runs the Democratic National Committee's credentials committee, told the South Florida Sun-Sentinel.

Florida's Democratic leaders had floated the idea of a June 3 redo election to comply with national party rules, which the state violated with its Jan. 29 primary. But the re-vote plan was opposed by Florida's congressional delegation and faces many logistic obstacles.

..."A re-vote "seems to be moving forward in Michigan; it seems to be a little bit stalled in Florida," said Roosevelt, a former official in Bill Clinton's administration appointed to his party post by DNC Chairman Howard Dean. "If they can do it in Michigan, I don't see why they couldn't do it in Florida."

AH...here's good old Steve Geller again. This guy has a mouth on him that just won't quit. He threatens Roosevelt, just as he is always threatening Dean about something. Steve, not wise to be ugly to the head of the credentials committee.

Roosevelt's comments drew a swift rebuke from Florida Senate Democratic leader Steve Geller, who said the national party is flirting with disaster by threatening to snub Florida.

Here is Steve Geller, Florida senate minority leader lecturing Dean at the state convention while wearing his Size DOES Mstter pin.

[SwampG8r]

49. note to gellar

dude get every copy of this pic and burn em
you look like every shady asshole ive ever seen in florida since 1957
get a suit this year and pay the 50 bucks for the alterations
how did people allow you to rise to a position of power?

[Politicalboi]

25. Doesn't FL have open primaries

And we know what has been happening with these. They listen to Flush Limpballs and the Repugs vote for Hillary because she is the weakest link to the Presidency. Besides all the candidates agreed that they wouldn't count. And that should be the rule.

[madfloridian]

37. No, we have closed primaries.

Unless someone wants to change the rules, you never know.

[robbedvoter]

26. She's generous enough to talk of revote - when she won both....

[Politicalboi]

28. Like Bush won in 2000

:rofl:

[Name removed]

30. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dansolo]

32. Obama should jump at Nelson's FL proposal

Honestly, losing 19 delegates off his lead is probably the best option for Obama, especially since it was suggested by Nelson.

Michigan, on the other hand, should be a complete revote.

[Scurrilous]

34. K & R

:thumbsup:

[InfiniteNether]

35. Who's who?

McCamy Taylor's research and posts on DU are excellent and should give anyone pause about what is really going on (in relation to 1968/1972/Buchanan and Rove CREEP tactics), but I think Clinton's conduct during this primary has been completely outrageous. By now I think we should all know who the real progressive is. Obama seems to have tried to follow the MI/FL rules as best as he could. I think the best way to solve this would be to do what the GOP did and strip half the delegates and seat them. Then split the rest evenly. This would deprive Clinton of some of her "champion of the voters" talking points, while maintaining some semblance of fairness. A new, open primary is just going to allow for more Limbaugh shenanigans.

[madfloridian]

36. So she stomps her feet and gets half the delegates?

So what would she get with a full-fledged tantrum? All of them.

I disagree. Split the Jan. 29 results 50 50 and let them have a seat at the convention, with the nominee already being decided.

[madfloridian]

38. The politics of destruction......

I wrote about the kind of politics practiced by some in our party. It was last year. It is turning out to be more true than I ever thought. Makes me sad.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1568

"The tactic of ridicule is being used quite widely in Florida now. It is working. Florida worked with the GOP here to get the vote through for the early primary. Then they immediately started the ridicule of Howard Dean and the DNC. It was well orchestrated indeed. They covered up their own dirty deeds by shifting blame and filing lawsuits."

"The ridicule comes in various forms...the subtle put down, the obvious name-calling, the insinuation that the poster isn't truthful. It comes in various forms at the think tanks. I believe the words netroots, nutroots, neo-populists, fringe...come to mind first.

And we are told that if we just get more Democrats in office, it will change. Trouble is these are things that Democrats are doing right now, to each other."

[Avalux]

42. You need to add what she's trying to do to Texas:

Clinton Request Violates the Law
by: Matt Glazer
Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 02:58 PM CDT

Simply, the request being made by the Clinton campaign is a request for the Texas Democratic Party to break the law. This is a troubling request. But as we have saw last month, there is an existing pattern of ignorance on behalf of the Clinton campaign as to how the established rules work in Texas.

It doesn't seem like the campaign fully appreciates the ramifications of their request. The Clinton campaign is either requesting the Texas Democratic Party to break the law or they are requesting the party to act as if they are above the law. In either case, we are enabling the Republican Party to attack our state party in November if the party honors the request. We are weakening our position by causing conflict within our party and we may be costing the urban counties thousand to tens of thousands of dollars by making them move the time, date, and location of county conventions that have been planned for months now.

After unprecedented turnout and democratic voter mobilization, now it appears like one campaign wants to set our party back.

http://www.burntorangereport.com/

[Johnny__Motown]

43. She knows she will lose if a Caucus is held, she is just spinning her loss now.

[kwenu]

46. I trust the courts because there is no way in HELL they'll allow those FL delegates to be seated.

Florida is a guaranteed loser in this but the suit should be against the state's leaders not the DNC. I'm really looking forward to this decision.

[madfloridian]

48. Jon Ausman filed a suit against the state. He lost.

But I think he lost because there was not time to make changes. I need to look it up.