Do you spend your weekends listening to some crazy pastor you disagree with?

[Apollo11]

I mean - it's not like there is some law that says everyone has to go to church.

Unless you happen to be a politician running for US Senate or the Presidency.

In which case you might want to tell folks that you attend church regularly.

Taking into consideration that up to 80% of voters call themselves Christians.

But then why not try to find a church with a message that you can agree with?

Otherwise we might as well all go and listen to Donnie McClurkin every week.

Your thoughts? :eyes:

[Ian David]

1. The Rabbi I grew-up with was an alcoholic who used to sneak drinks while teaching Hebrew School.

Does that count?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

72. Mine TOO!!!!!!!

Course, we broke in after hours, stole soda, cake, and the bottle from the drawer in his desk...

Yup. I'm goin to hell...

[jmg257]

2. Nope. NO way. Too many choices out there. And some are way better then others.

[Birthmark]

3. One of the joys of being an atheist...

...is sleeping in on Sundays. There are many others, like not having to listen to crazy-ass preachers, holding yourself responsible for your actions, doing good things because they are good and not because you'll get a reward...the list is very long.

[Apollo11]

35. Good summary!

If I wasn't already an atheist, you would have just "saved" me! B-)

[Birthmark]

49. I've converted three or four people in my time

And I've disproven three or four versions of god, too. It's surprisingly easy once you get the hang of it. :)

It's interesting how atheism has grown over the years. When I became an atheist in 1974, I was the ONLY atheist that I personally knew. I didn't meet another one for five or six more years. These days atheists are much easier to find...or maybe they're just more willing to admit it.

[Armstead]

4. I used to be an Episcopalian, and the services gave me the willies

I was not a faithful churchgoer in adulthood, but I occasionally went.

But frankly, having to endlessly repeat what a miserable sinner I am, simply because I was born human, eventually gave me the willies. So I stopped going, figuring that Christianity was nothing but a guilt trip.

Not a political answer, but it's the truth.

[merh]

5. Have you ever been to a catholic mass?

Sometimes those priest say some goofy stuff. Our parish actually told us to ignore the homeless outside the church, to not give them any money.

Many folks I know attend church for the religious structure, for the ceremony and because of that commandment "remember to keep holy the Lord's day". They don't always agree with the "spiritual leader" and that in itself causes them conflict.

Priests, preachers, ministers, etcetera, are humans and are sinners, most of us know that and don't follow them, we follow Christ and his teachings.

[Texas Hill Country]

32. sure, but you did not choose THAT church for THAT preacher, or have them as a mentor and best bud...

the guy is a virtual father figure to Obama... he joined the church specifically for those things... he pretty much admitted it when he said he joined to re-affirm his blackness... and Michelle has said stuff that is not so dissimilar... add that to his "muslim" upbringing, his "muslim" name, his "lack of experience" and the lapel pin debacle... There is NO WAY he will be president.

[merh]

38. So Jews don't hold close to their heritage

Do you think I should be embarassed that I am white? Should I deny it? I mean, after all, the whites before me have oppressed others, there are still whites so full of racism that they think the whole "black thing" is an excuse.

Go look at the popular vote, all that you say matters hasn't mattered.

You might want to look deep within yourself to find out why you think it does.

Edited to add: And how many of us have fathers we love, but don't agree with, that we respect and admire, but we don't believe what they believe?

[Texas Hill Country]

43. it is more than heritage... and I am multi racial myself thanks much...

[merh]

44. So your problem with Obama is that he attends a church that

says to it's members "don't be ashamed to be black" Be proud that you are who you are?"

As I said in my edited post, there are plenty of older folks in my life that I know and love and admire, but I do not emulate them in every way and I don't agree with everything they have to say about everything.

That is what it means to be an adult, to think for yourself.

[Texas Hill Country]

51. There are plenty of churches that say the same thing... without the conspiracy theories and hate.

[merh]

55. What conspiracy theory?

That the US's policies is why AQ targeted the US? Is that a conspiracy theory or a factual observation?

What hate?

[NOLALady]

61. Many people choose their Churches

because of what they call 'The Fellowship'.

I take that to mean they have a relationship with the Congregation more so than the Pastor.

Also, those Churches seem to have a life of their own. Some have Schools, Ministries, whatever. The people who belong to the Church also belong to that Community. Some may not want to give up that Community just because of a weird Pastor.

Of course, I think all Pastors/Priests are weird. None of them make a damn bit of sense. But, that's just me.

[Voice for Peace]

73. Thanks, good points.

I've also got a lot of people in my life who hold some strange beliefs I disagree with, but nevertheless have mentored me in other ways.

[sunnystarr]

68. Can you specify for me ... what Muslim upbringing? (nt)

[CoffeeCat]

70. Oh please...

...those "micro-scandals" you mention are a laugh. There's nothing there. This guy is squeaky clean.

I'm sure the Hillary bulldozers have been working day and night, trying to dig up something to which they
could attach "gate"-- but there is nothing there.

I mean really. You actually think that "the lapel pin debacle" and his "muslim name" will bring him down?

Bill Clinton reportedly, fucked everything that moved and his bimbos were crawling out of the walls to
talk on camera. That didn't bring him down, or impede him in the General Election. Yet, we're supposed
to swallow the notion that this nonsense will crush Obama? Down the rabbit hole we go!

I'm finding this so bizarre. We can't find much on Obama, so let's inflate non-issues into earth-shattering
scandals--complete with truckloads of feigned outrage. Oh the humanity!

I'm supposed to be worked up into a lather, because of some things Obama's preacher said? What about
Obama's dog groomer...has he said anything controversial? What about Michelle's pedicurist...any skeletons
in her closet? What about Obama's current friends or his study buddies from Harvard...have they EVER
said ANYTHING that would remotely make great headline? Dig people dig!

This will fall by the wayside, like all of the other not-so-'gate' trial balloons that have been floated--only
to have sputtered--and sunk to the ground.

All of the stuff you mention has been repeated ad nauseam in the media during the past few months. Still, he's winning
more states, more votes and catalyzing a record number (that's record number) of Democrats to turn out and
vote for him in the primaries. None of it is affecting him.

If each of us had our lives researched, dissected and splayed out before the entire nation--we only wish
they that all they had on us was our middle name, some controversial quotes from our preacher, and the
fact that we sometimes don't wear a lapel pin.

Sorry, but this is not going to work. However, it is good for a chuckle.

[goodgd_yall]

77. I used to "put up" with it

but if I don't like the priest's message, I find another church to attend. There are plenty of choices in Catholic churches where I live. I need to feel that I am part of a community. And if the sermons preach against homosexuality or contain content that I feel is unChristian, I feel like an outcast.

[stevenleser]

6. McCain has already said a couple of times that this is an inappropriate line of attack on Obama

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/14/75418/1294

As I said in another thread, it is sad when a Republican has to lecture Democrats on inappropriate politics of personal destruction.

[dsc]

11. Of course he would say that

He is in the thrall of his own kooky pastors.

[stevenleser]

17. Your reasoning is probably right, but the point is, this entire issue is moot

it is not a general election issue.

[NDambi]

18. McCain is smart...where's Hillary?

McCain..pivots in a beautiful way...

He'll end up winning at this rate..

The republican candidate speaks out..but the Dem candidate doesn't it?

Hmmmm

[Apollo11]

33. McCain doesn't need to talk about this. He can leave it to FOX Noise and hate radio.

Not to mention a couple hundred right-wing talking heads between now and November.

[Texas Hill Country]

34. That is because McCain doesnt have to attack!!!! Merely stating the truth does it for him!!!!

and the press will be all over this for a while...


and if you dont think that if there is any closeness to this election that the swiftboats wont go on the offensive you are delusional.

[JoFerret]

67. One of the silliest remarks yet

Do you imagine next September/ October - Obama as nominee - maybe ahead in the polls - that this steaming pile won't come back front and center of the GOP campaign??
Where have you been "my friend'?

[goodgd_yall]

78. That's a typical campaigning tactic

Appear to be above the dirt and let your surrogates carry out the attacks. Of course, McCain is not going to sully his image by directly using this information about Wright against Obama. That would be political suicide.

[dionysus]

7. nice, sliding mcclurkin in there...

[Apollo11]

42. It's "Two smears for the price of one" Friday!

B-)

[dionysus]

50. lol

[oasis]

8. Rev.Wright idolizes Farrakhan and blames 9/11 on America. It's scary

just listening to this "spiritual leader".

[stillcool]

23. I think this is scary...

...........Published in 2000...........

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blowback_CJohnson/Blowback_BCJ.html
excerpts from the book
Blowback The Costs and Consequences of American Empire
by Chalmers Johnson
Henry Holt, 2000

The term "blowback," which officials of the Central Intelligence Agency first invented for their own internal use, is starting to circulate among students of international relations. It refers to the unintended consequences of policies that were kept secret from the American people. What the daily press reports as the malign acts of "terrorists" or "drug lords" or "rogue states" or "illegal arms merchants" often turn out to be blowback from earlier American operations.
p9
One man's terrorist is, of course, another man's freedom fighter, and what U.S. officials denounce as unprovoked terrorist attacks on its innocent citizens are often meant as retaliation for previous American imperial actions. Terrorists attack innocent and undefended American targets precisely because American soldiers and sailors firing cruise missiles from ships at sea or sitting in B-52 bombers at extremely high altitudes or supporting brutal and repressive regimes from Washington seem invulnerable. As members of the Defense Science Board wrote in a 1997 report to the undersecretary of defense for acquisition and technology, "Historical data show a strong correlation between U.S. involvement in international situations and an increase in terrorist attacks against the United States. In addition, the military asymmetry that denies nation states the ability to engage in overt attacks against the United States drives the use of transnational actors ."
The most direct and obvious form of blowback often occurs when the victims fight back after a secret American bombing, or a U.S.-sponsored campaign of state terrorism, or a ClA-engineered overthrow of a foreign political leader. All around the world today, it is possible to see the groundwork being laid for future forms of blowback.
p12
-----------------------------------------
Terrorism(by definition)strikes at the innocent in order to draw attention to the sins of the invulnerable. The innocent of the twenty-first century are going to harvest unexpected blowback disasters from the imperialist escapades of recent decades. Although most Americans may be largely ignorant of what was, and still is, being done in their names, all are likely to pay a steep price-individually and collectively-for their nation's continued efforts to dominate the global scene. Before the damage of heedless triumphalist acts and the triumphalist rhetoric and propaganda that goes with them becomes irreversible, it is important to open a new discussion of our global role during and after the Cold War...
----------------------

"Blowback" is shorthand for saying that a nation reaps what it sows, even if it does not fully know or understand what it has sown. Given its wealth and power, the United States will be a prime recipient in the foreseeable future of all of the more expectable forms of blowback, particularly terrorist attacks against Americans in and out of the armed forces anywhere on earth, including within the United States. But it is blowback in its larger aspect-the tangible costs of empire-that truly threatens it. Empires are costly operations, and they become more costly by the year. The hollowing out of American industry, for instance, is a form of blowback-an unintended negative consequence of American policy- even though it is seldom recognized as such. The growth of militarism in a once democratic society is another example of blowbackEmpire is the problem. Even though the United States has a strong sense of invulnerability and substantial military and economic tools to make such a feeling credible, the fact of its imperial pretensions means that a crisis is inevitable. More imperialist projects simply generate more blowback. If we do not begin to solve problems in more prudent and modest ways, blowback will only become more intense.

[oasis]

39. The words of Rev. Wright seem to have infected this board.

:wow:

[stillcool]

46. Infected with what?

a dose of reality? I think it's wonderful that we are discussing cause and effect as it relates to 9/11 and our foreign policy. How can we possibly attempt to fix any of the problems inside our borders, without addressing our foreign policy and global reach that overshadows everything else?

[oasis]

48. You'd better save that kind of talk until after your guy gets into the WH. (eom)

[stillcool]

60. What "kind" of talk...

should I be "saving"? Truth?

[oasis]

69. Your words are safe here within the confines of DU.(eom)

[lapfog_1]

9. My thought is that you are catapulting the propaganda

and trying to be the mini echo chamber for the republican wing of the Democratic Party.

Because, of course, your reasoning for even bringing this up... the reasoning that would lead YOU to be responsible for every utterance and thought of your wingnut relative or neighbor, the one that keeps saying that we should nuke all of the "ragheads". Same logic.

[Apollo11]

10. I don't donate money to my wingnut relative or neighbor.

I also don't make the time every week to dress up smart, put the kids in the car, and drive over to his/her house so we can all listen to what he/she has to say.

[Bobbieo]

13. I avoid religion like the plague - I'm an agnostic!!1People can believe

what they want to as I really don't care.

[NDambi]

20. Religion is the plague

[lapfog_1]

24. You are NOT your brother's keeper???

Why not?

You don't invite that crazy wingnut uncle for Thanksgiving with the family?

Or is it OK to listen to him rant once a year, that's OK, but listening to him rant (and sometimes those rants are really kind of spot on) once a week is NOT. As for the money donated, you think it's all spent on a secret cache of weapons for the upcoming race war?

Have you EVER been to a predominately black church before?

[Apollo11]

28. My father-in-law says some anti-immigrant stuff sometimes

But I always try to put the other side of the case, even when I am a guest in his house.

In a church service situation - no dialogue is possible.

But you can always decide to stop going.

PS - Why are YOU trying to inject RACE into this discussion?

[NOLALady]

79. Maybe they don't care or pay much attention

to what he has to say. Maybe they care about seeing their friends and or relatives.

I've been around people after a Church service. The conversation was NEVER about the sermon. They discussed the members of the Church, usually in a very unChristian like manner. For some, Church is a social gathering. No more, no less.

[Araxen]

12. I don't believe in imaginary beings in the sky

and do not goto church. I've evolved beyond needing something "like a god" to make my life worth wild. There are plenty of other things in the world to live for and I do not need imaginary beings in my life.

[Apollo11]

37. Be careful what you write

Because if there is a supreme being, you can be pretty sure he/she/it reads everything that gets posted on the internet! ;-)

[berni_mccoy]

14. Why do you look down on people of faith?

[Apollo11]

41. Why do you look down on people of reason?

Two can play at that game, smart guy! ;-)

[berni_mccoy]

45. You are assuming you are a person of reason. I feel sorry for you.

[Apollo11]

54. And you are assuming I give a sh ...

Take your sympathy and shove it!

Channeling my inner Teresa Heinz! ;-)

[berni_mccoy]

56. LOL! Good response.

[dcindian]

15. All Catholics are pedophiles. All 700 club watchers are assasins

Ya ya we all get it.... But but it's different cause he's black.

[NDambi]

16. Religion sucks. Church sucks. Of course just my opinion

[lapfog_1]

27. And the United States of George W. Bush is ready

for the next atheist President... right???

:sarcasm:

[NDambi]

29. lol

[EmilyAnne]

19. As the daughter of a fundamentalist preacher, I used to. I can't tell you how much I now enjoy my

Sunday mornings. Sometimes, I like to wake up early just so I know that I can go back to sleep. Ironically, the church was a Church of Christ, but not a United Church of Christ. Totally different, but a lot of nutty stuff coming from the pulpit.

[displacedtexan]

63. Don't you just love worshiping at the Church of St. Mattress?

I do!

Welcome to the Sunday morning breakfast-in-bed service!

[hedgehog]

21. Unfortunately , yes. I am convinced that our current pastor

became a priest as a means of obtaining "fire insurance". I am gritting my teeth and remaining a member of my parish in the hope that someday we will have a proper pastor again. It's a tough problem; do I leave my parish community because I am put off by the current appointed leader? Will there be a parish community left once he is gone? It's not a problem exclusive to churches; many have seen companies or schools transformed by new executives.

[Iceburg]

22. I would have walked out after the first pico-second of JM's vitriol: This issue speaks to judgment

[BlackVelvet04]

25. Of course not....

I certainly wouldn't listen to a preacher for 20 years that I didn't agree with or have him as my personal mentor. At 17 I walked out of a church for a racist remark and never went to that church again.

[sfam]

26. I don't listen to any pastor on the weekends...or any other time...

They are all a bit crazy in many ways to my ears. I absolutely agree though that this guy is truly out there, at least in the clips we've seen.

[Apollo11]

30. I agree

They already lost me at the "dead people are looking down on us" part.

[Abacus]

31. You know,

real world relationships aren't as ideologically cohesive (:rofl:) as DU relationships. I never met anyone that I agree with on everything, even when compartmentalizing knowledge sets. (The fervor of discussion on DU should be a good illustration of this.)

[Zynx]

36. I didn't go to church for a long time after a crazy Monsignor came in and

talked about the vile atheists and agnostics and liberals destroying the world. That wasn't even our regular priest and I punished the church by not going for weeks.

[DemGa]

40. Exactly the point

Obama already has a reputation as an "empty-suit"; is his spirituality/church life further representation of this perception? It certainly looks that way. Do you return for twenty years and expose YOUR CHILDREN to a message with which you disagree?

What does this say to name your book after the sayings of a "kooky uncle"? More ZERO substance -- Obama looks silly for it.

[GoldieAZ49]

47. I have been through a lot of churches

because when the pastor starts talking about 'those heathens that don't worship God the way we do are condemned' I am out of there.

The church I found that welcomes all.

The relationship with a pastor changes when they become your personal mentor. You emulate a mentor. You would not do that if you didn't wholeheartedly agree with them on the majority of issues, especially the big issues of your life.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Apollo11]

53. A good friend of mine claims to be a Catholic

But she privately admitted to me that, of course, there is no such thing as life after death.

[Perky]

75. That is awfully intolerant. All religious people are mentally ill?

Let be be the first to Alert.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

57. Yeah, I'm sure Obama could have found a nice, white church

Where no one pointed out uncomfortable truths about race in America.

[NOLALady]

58. I don't spend my weekends

listening to a crazy priest or a non crazy priest. My childhood Church is about an hours drive so I very rarely attend except on special occasions. If a nutty priest was assigned there, it wouldn't stop me from going. Actually, I think the current priest is nutty. The last time I went, he was carrying on like a Black Baptist Minister. This is a white priest of a predominately black Catholic church. I started laughing out loud. I couldn't help myself.

But, to each his own. I suppose people who attend Church regularly are fulfilling their own needs. I have to respect their choices.

[onenote]

59. Hillary participates in a bible study/prayer group with Brownback

and others, including, while he was in the Senate, Santorum. Do I think she agrees with everything that the folks she sat around with believed?

Some might argue that seeking out a church that only "preached to the choir" is less valuable than going to a church where the discussions are more provocative.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

62. hell no and I certainly wouldn't give him $25K a year like Obama does

[JoFerret]

64. Too right

And too bad religion seems compulsory.

When the US is able to seriously consider an atheist for president we know we will have grown up.

[susankh4]

65. No I don't...

and I am also not afraid to walk out of a church, if things get ugly. I've done it.

But... ya know... that really doesn't matter. Cuz I am not running for public office. If I was running... I'D BE DAMN SURE to know what my minister was saying.

Twenty years of this anti-American hate talk and we are supposed to get behind this guy as leader of the free world? WTF?

[NOLALady]

80. Right.

An American preaching anti American hate to other Americans. Or do you think the pastor and his congregation are not Americans?

[againes654]

66. I don't know one single person that I agree with all the time

Even my pastor. Matter of fact, I disagree with my pastors stance on gays. I disagree with his stance on hip/hop gospel music. I disagree with him about many things, but I continue to go to that church.

Do you agree with everything from anyone you know? Is there one person in your life that you ALWAYS agree with? Even someone you love and respect dearly, you probably don't agree with all the time.

Why do we feel we have to always like and agree with a situation?

[sunnystarr]

71. My brother is completely racist

He lives in Ohio and his friends are racist and when I visited him and attended a cook out they played racist music that I didn't even know existed. Do I love my brother less? No. Do I have arguments with him about his views? No. He's my brother and his views are his and mine are mine. He doesn't preach to me to quit smoking either - which is offensive to him. On many other subjects my brother has wonderful insight and advise that has proved to be so right over the years. Do I negate everything that he says because he holds racist views? Of course not. I have a mind and intelligence and can certainly differentiate and not use one thing to negate him in totality.

Unless someone grew up black in our white society we can't even begin to understand how it feels. Obama didn't have this experience since he didn't grow up in the same way as most American blacks. I haven't read his books yet but it wouldn't surprise me that he attended the church to help him understand the experience of blacks whose roots are grounded in slavery in the US and who have tried for generations to not only be treated equally as citizens but to feel equal as well. From the clips I've heard I can't say I disagree with the pastor's statements, especially as viewed through the lens of an oppressed people.

Regarding the clip right after 911, it's not unusual for a pastor to discuss "as you sow so shall you reap" examples. Our policies certainly have created many enemies around the world and it should come as no surprise that we were attacked. Of course the way it was stated was dramatic and disturbing to white viewers. I'm certain that Obama doesn't share those views the way they were stated. I'm equally certain that he understands the context and the reason why and is intelligent enough to separate that from other spiritual guidance that this pastor provided.

[Perky]

74. Jesus broke bread with the Pharisees

Look if a 'brother' has a a speck in his eye I am supposed to help hime get it out....How much moreso if he has a log in his eye?

You can change the views of pharisees unless you can be apart of their lives.

[goodgd_yall]

76. I don't attend church very often

2-3 times a year, but if I'm in a church and decide I don't like the priest because of something he said in a sermon, I choose another church. It's not like there is a shortage of Catholic churches. Sometimes I'll go to an Episcopal church since they tend to be welcoming (though a little too uptight---but it's hard to find everything you're looking for in any church or religion, I find). I'm not saying this to criticize Obama. I have no problem with him continuing to go to his church. But since you ask, that is what I would do and what I have done in the past.

[Apollo11]

81. An interesting discussion

I enjoyed reading everyone's responses. Thanks! B-)