Time.com breaks "possible solution to delegate impasse"

[DemsUnited]

On "The Page", Mark Halperin (who is a politically connected commentator for Time & ABC News) writes the following:

Details of a possible delegate plan under discussion:

–Michigan’s 156 delegates would be split 50-50 between Clinton and Obama.

–Florida’s existing delegates would be seated at the Denver convention—but with half a vote each. That would give Clinton a net gain of about 19 elected delegates.

– The two states’ superdelegates would then be able to vote in Denver, likely netting Clinton a few more delegates.

The betting: Florida and Michigan delegates, the DNC, and the Clinton campaign would all — some reluctantly– accept this deal.

Then it would be over to you, Barack Obama.

Link: http://thepage.time.com/details-of-a-possible-delegate-plan-under-discussion/
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Fair? Not so much? Discuss!

[jlake]

1. Seat MI & FL as is right now! The only fair solution.

[ORDagnabbit]

4. seat them both at a 59-50 split is fair ..they both made this pledge

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3/13/11136/3289/192/475758

THEREFORE, I (Hillary Clinton), Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules, pledge to actively campaign in the pre-approved early states Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina. I pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window (any date prior to February 5, 2008).

[jlake]

7. No, if they won't revote the delegates need to be seated as is.

[papau]

29. I agree - this "compromise" is just the DNC trying to screw Hillary - again

[ORDagnabbit]

48. hillary is doing that all by herself. n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

34. Florida voters were not a party to any such pledge

[thoughtcrime1984]

50. They voted in folks to represent them. It has worked this way for over 200 years,

They should try to replace the elected officials who sold them out. That the superdelegates still get to vote and the voters delegates are diminished or don't count at all is ridiculous. The sd's from the 2 states need to be void.

[haymakeragain]

8. Puleeeeez

At least try to get close to being realistic. You're not even on the map as to what is fair.

[jlake]

9. I favor a re-vote... since that is not happening the only fair solution is

to seat them according to the original vote.... simple as that.

[rateyes]

17. Get real.

What's fair about seating delegates with the results of an election that was not fair, and not according to the rules they agreed to.

Check your partisan slip. It's showing.

[papau]

31. it was according to the rules - no one campaigned - set the delegates or kiss off the election

[rateyes]

33. No it wasn't.

They were held before Feb. 5. Against the rules.

[JimGinPA]

18. The Original Vote Was Non-Sactioned, As In - Doesn't Count

[jlake]

21. If Dean would just follow the rules instead of play an Obama partisan,

we never would have gotten into this mess.
FL should have lost 1/2 of delegates, as the rules said.... but now we're in a real pickle.
Without a re-vote, the original vote must stand.

[papau]

32. I agree - Dean wanted to hurt Clinton - now he has a problem

[JimGinPA]

45. You Need To Come Back From Bizarro World - FL & MI Broke The Rules, Not Dean...

They knew what the penalty would be for moving their primaries up and chose to do it anyway. Now you want to re-write history because it doesn't suit your argument.

[jlake]

53. The penalty they "knew about" wasn't the same one Deanie imposed.

[Melinda]

47. BS. FL and MI broke the rules, not Dean. And it was the DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee, not Dean,

who formulated and passed the rule. And then, it was the two states submitting delegate selection plans that violated party rules. Chairman Dean is not responsible for FL and MI not following the rules.

Dean now on seating the FL and MI delagations:

http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1444170246/bctid1445041298

[Andy823]

39. So if

Obama had been the one who stayed on the ballot and Hillary would have withdrawn her name, and he would have won, would you still say the same thing? If Obama had won Florida, would you still say seat them accordingly? Just curious.

[stray cat]

12. after all why is anyone on the ballet instead of Hillary anyway

In MI only Hillary was even on the ballet. I don't tell students an exam is practice and won't count and turn around and count it if a favorite student did well.

[jlake]

24. I didn't know Hilly was a ballerina - learn something new everyday.

[milkyway]

61. Let's give Clinton her due. In MI she did give a beating to Gravel and Kucinich, athough Uncommitted

put up a helluva fight.

[cali]

20. never, ever gonna happen because it's blatantly unfair

and ethically fucked up. The proposed solution seems pretty fair, and you should embrace it- it's good for Hillary.

[jlake]

23. No, it's not fair to anyone - especially the voters.

a re-vote is needed in MI & FL; otherwise the delegates must be seated as is.

[cali]

40. It's never going to happen. Organizing and paying for a re-vote

is too complicated and too expensive. And if you think the DNC is going to seat the delegates as is, you're straight out certifiable.

[papau]

35. No Way is it fair to Hillary - Dean as always is trying to screw the Clintons

[cali]

42. that's just delusional n/t

[Window]

55. No way Jose.

[jlake]

56. It is the only fair thing to do. Hill Yes!

[milkyway]

59. Where did you get your definition of "fair"? From Orwell? When you say something so ludicrous that

not even Mark Penn and Howard Wolfson would believe it, you only diminish everything else you say here at DU. You should at least try to stay within shouting distance of reality.

[jlake]

60. Why do you want to disenfranchise the voters of 2 very important states - SHAME!

[milkyway]

63. You didn't answer the question at all, and why the fuck are you saying SHAME to me?

You are pathetic.

[justinsb]

2. If it means I don't have to hear about it anymore

I say go for it.

[MadBadger]

3. I personally want a revote in Michigan...but then again, I'm not the one paying for it

I want to know what happens with the popular vote, how is that counted?

[SoonerPride]

16. I would presume it isn't counted, since they didn't really have a vote

But I could be wrong.

[Eurobabe]

19. lmao

i love your obama/jesus icon. :spray:

[MadBadger]

26. Thank you! Finally somebody isnt offended.

[Eurobabe]

28. i think it is hysterical

we've lost the ability to laugh, at ourselves and the inanity of it all on DU lately. That is sad.

[MadBadger]

36. I know. People always tell me that I think Obama is the messiah...

well if I'm brainwashed that easily, I decided to embrace the meme.

[Eurobabe]

64. Well, he is!! I need to make a snarky

sig line WWBD? Since he is GOD. :rofl:

[MadBadger]

27. Thank you! Finally somebody isnt offended.

[BlueManDude]

5. IMO re-voting would be a fucking shambolic disaster.

[rateyes]

About as fair as it can get at this point.

Either this, or don't seat them.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

6. Sounds like an Obama camp leak to create media momentum for an insane solution

[cali]

25. Of course you have no evidence that this is an Obama leak

and frankly, I think this is a reasonable solution. Nothing remotely insane about it even if it does favor Clinton.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

46. If I meant "I know it is" I would have said so

"Sounds like (to me, being implied)" is an opinion.

As to the sanity of it... you put a button in front of me that will guarantee full sanctioned votes in MI and FL and also guarantees that Obama wins, and I'll push the button.

Florida 2000 was a crucible of my attitudes toward democracy. I studied a lot of constitutional issues I hadn't studied to the same depth. I made a lot of considered choices about right and wrong and what democracy mean.

And I cannot go back on those developed, informed principles today. My intellectual vanity is stronger than any partisan rooting interest.

The people of FL and MI must have their choice determined by a free and fair election (which the existing votes were not), and that choice must be represented 100% in the convention vote for the nominee.

We cannot punish anyone by reducing their franchise. I am a zealot against disenfranchising felons. (How can voters make prison reform decisions after eliminating every voter who knows what being in prison is about?) So how can I possibly favor disenfranchisement for petty procedural offenses?

If one desires punishment, then horse-whip all the party big-wigs involved. That extreme step would do less violence to our system tan what is being proposed.

If the franchise is inalienable then disenfranchisement is in the same category as capital punishment. You cannot take life, cannot take the franchise, cannot take freedom of religion, etc..

[cali]

62. There is no franchise concerning primaries.

Never has been. How presidential candidates are chosen is up to the parties. This is not a vote for office. It is not the same thing as 2000. I'm so sick of that argument. And my opinion has nothing to do with partisanship. I felt this way long before I decided on a candidate. You simply cannot have states deciding to abrogate the process.

[papau]

37. I agree - it is getting harder for the media to pretend they are not just part of Obama campaign

[ericgtr]

10. Sounds like a swift way to re-work the math in Clinton's favor

everyone agree's accept for the candidate who is actually winning this thing fairly. Obama won't agree to it nor should he.

[State the Obvious]

11. So, what is the penalty for Michigan and Florida....

...for disregarding the DNC rule? the half vote?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

13. "3/5 of a man"

[ericgtr]

22. Their punishment is being put into a position to potentially decide the outcome of this election

seems really fair lol.

[rateyes]

14. If Obama accepts this, so should Clinton.

IMO, Obama would do better than 50% in Michigan. Therefore, he would end up losing delegates he would have gotten. In a Florida re-vote, I don't see Clinton winning by as much as she did before. She got 50% then to Obama's 33% (Edwards was still in the race). This way she gets to keep the same percentage lead in delegates--which means Obama would lose more than if there was a re-vote, and Florida gets punished for deliberately breaking the rules by losing half their voting strength. There should be consequences to deliberate rule breaking.

Perhaps then, we can get past this nonsense, and the campaigns can start focusing on the real issues, rather than the race/gender mess that's tearing us up now.

I think it's a good idea.

[papau]

38. No way - let's see Obama win at least one must win big state other than home state

[rateyes]

43. Georgia isn't a big state? Virginia isn't a must win big state?

Oh, and Obama won Texas.

[mckeown1128]

58. Obama is doing better than Clinton in swing states...

Iowa, Wisconsin, Missouri, Virginia, Washington, North Dakota, Colorado, and Kansas are states that Obama has one that show him (and not Hillary) polling ahead of McCain.

Hillary has... Ohio which Obama is also polling ahead of McCain and maybe New Jersey (depending on which polls you take seriously) Obama's states have many more electoral votes. Michigan and Florida don't count since we don't have any accurate results from them.

[jenmito]

15. Wolf Blitzer is DYING to have a vote done for some reason...hmmm...

Every guest who comes on saying a mail-in ballot vote wouldn't work gets interrupted before they can finish even one sentence with Wolf's opinions. He'll say things like, "But wouldn't that be easy to do? Couldn't everyone just write on a piece of paper their choice and signature on it? Couldn't people with no permanent address just go to a voting place? How 'bout just a full-scale primary then?" He's pushing HARD for it.

[BlueIdaho]

30. Do our words mean anything?

Are there consequences to actions or do we ignore consequences to avoid an uncomfortable brush with reality? Through a series of circumstances well known to all by now - MI and FL held primaries that were destined to create problems. ALL our candidates signed statements supporting the party and rejecting the primaries as held. Do we say - oh never mind... Its ok they jumped the gun, its ok they violated rules they agreed to earlier even though (A) not all the candidates names were on the ballots and (B) there is some confusion about who did and did not campaign there - lets just pretend everything is ok and seat them as is so we don't hurt feelings.

Well, what about all those who chose to play by the rules - what lesson do they learn from all this?

The delegations can't be seated "as is" because "as is" is broken.

But - MI and FL still need to be seated. If there is time and money, a re-vote would be best (I think) but finding a proportional seating compromise would sure save time and money.

It doesn't really help for HRC to keep insisting they be seated "as is" - that shows no sense of fair play or respect for an honest and open primary process at all. I suspect someone will remind me that BO has an equally dopey stance on the issue as well. If that's the case I say a POX on both their houses!

I thought this was the DEMOCRATIC party!

[papau]

41. the candidates rejected campaigning in those states - nothing more - Dean screwing Clinton is

the rest of the story

[bhikkhu]

52. The candidates pledged to neither campaign or participate in those elections

The candidates had the option to protest about disenfranchising voters at that point, but none did - they all accepted the DNC rules and pledged to follow them.

[Tellurian]

66. Dean, Obama, Kennedy and Kerry screwing Clinton...

just for the sake of accuracy.

[Me.]

44. Sorry, But Halperin Is Not Respected

Has always to the right of things. And the recent picture he put up on Time.com with Obama as a dirty rat was a disgrace

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-shaw/reading-the-pictures-em_b_90672.html

[DemsUnited]

49. You're absolutely right

I meant connected to sources and respected in terms of the validity of those sources.

Much appreciation for pointing this out and will try to update original post for clarity.

[Me.]

51. Very Kind Of You

:thumbsup:

[beachmom]

54. The Obama camp should accept the deal. The last thing they want

is Florida to be the last state voted on thereby giving momentum to Clinton. The 50/50 split in MI seems fair. The half votes for FL is also close enough. I think had it been contested more fairly, Obama would have gotten to 40% but delegate wise, that doesn't add up to a lot.

I hope this is real, and that everyone agrees to it. Then when Obama gets the nomination, nobody can complain that it wasn't fair.

[milkyway]

57. Hey, I suggested the same thing last night here at DU! It's such an obvious and easy solution I'm

sure others have thought of it also, especially since polling has made it clear that Michigan is a very close state and probably would not result in a large delegate gain for either candidate.

I think this solution favors Obama more than Clinton. She's the one significantly behind, and the only large state left for her is PA. She needs more games to be played to make up a large margin, and cutting Florida in half and taking Michigan out of play won't do it.

Taking FL and MI off the board and netting about 20 delegates (she netted about 40 in the beauty contest) in FL and none in MI hurts her more than Obama. Barack would lower her 17% margin in FL because he would have time to campaign there and let the people of Florida get to know him, but probably not by a lot. Florida is very demographically favorable to her (lots of Hispanics and elderly).

The most disadvantaged people are those that stayed home because they thought the vote wouldn't count.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5052407&mesg_id=5053041

[jackson_dem]

65. Obama wants 50% of MI's delegates handed on a silver platter

How royalist of him. He is in the wrong party...