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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:10 PM
Original message
Lurker de-lurking to discuss this primary, specifically race.
I have been lurking here since approximately 2004. I just want to de-lurk and say hi to everyone, even those of you who make me want to throw my monitor across the room. :)

I'm not exactly a true-blue Democrat. My views have swung to and fro over the years as I have aged. I went to a Mondale/Ferraro rally when I was too young to vote, and voted for Dukakis the first time I *was* old enough. So my first forays into politics were indeed very disappointing. I felt as if my pulse were opposite that of the rest of the country.

Over the next couple of decades, I tried to be an issue guy, rather than follow one party around blindly. So my voting record is sprinkled with various Rs and Ds, and even a few Is, both on a state and federal level. Along the way, I married and had two little girls. My political compass seems to have settled (at least for now) somewhere slightly-left-of-center (although the term "center" is another discussion).

One thing I feel strongly about - over the last 8 years, this country has squandered its resources, its reputation and its resolve to do the right thing by its citizens. For *me*, voting Democrat is the only option this time. I am currently leaning toward Obama but am not "sold." Nor do I ever expect to be "sold" on a candidate again. It is my opinion that they all fail us at some point, because they (and we) are all human, with human weaknesses built-in, and anyway, no politician can deliver all the ridiculous things they promise anyway.

Because I am *probably* voting Obama, I want to address some of these threads which refer to his "unelectability", which sometimes (not always, sometimes) implies that there are whites which will not vote for a black candidate. Here are my beliefs regarding the unelectability/race issue:

(Again, these are BELIEFS. I am not stating these as FACTS. Facts have no place in GD-P) :)

1. There are indeed some whites who will not vote for a black candidate. I live in Tennessee and can attest to this. They will never be swayed.

2. Blacks have unquestionably and faithfully supported the Democratic party for a long time.

3. Obama is the most viable black candidate to emerge in my lifetime. Whether he is electable or unelectable can be argued, but his support far exceeds the black candidates which have preceded him.

That being said, if anyone is going to make an argument that we can't nominate Obama because some whites may not vote for him, then I would say to that person, NO. That is not a valid excuse. You cannot reward bigotry by perpetuating it. You cannot advance the concept of a black President by cowering in the face of bigotry.

"But Obama will lose us the GE, and it's more important now than EVER," someone will say. Hogwash. This has been said about every election I can remember, and some of the older DUers will probably say the same thing about every election in their lifetime as well. Every election is important. If Obama ends this primary ahead in states, ahead in pledged delgates, and still has a lead, no matter how tenuous, in the popular vote, he should get the nod. If you are going to say that we cannot nominate a black man because he is unelectable, then let's just cut through the crap and tell black people they need not apply again. Because until someone takes a chance, it will never happen.

Anyway, just wanted to throw that out there, along with a "Hi folks." We now return you to your regularly scheduled feces-flinging. :)
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bobbert Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm a lurker too
Figured I would post along with you :)
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Lurkers Unite! nt
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. Welcome to DU, bobbert!
:hi:
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
36. Recent delurker
Luker-no-mores are pretty nice, I see.
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woolldog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. good first post
hello! :hi:
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Thanks.
It's difficult to walk that fine line between being honest and sounding preachy. So I just generally trod clumsily all over that line. :)
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. ya did just fine..welcome
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. "You cannot reward bigotry by perpetuating it."
:thumbsup:
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. Then can we please run an atheist?
I am an atheist.

About 70% of the country says they would never vote for an atheist.

If we had an openly atheist candidate I would love him, but I would not support him to be the nominee.

If we are going to lose to make a point, let's make a lot of points... we need a gay atheist black woman so we can lose with a little panache.
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Obama's mom was an atheist.... and he was "uncommitted" until his 20s......
I think Obama has a secular bent to him, I really do.
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Good point.
Although I won't automatically concede the election before it is held.

The primary point I was trying to make, which is basically "someone is going to have to be the first one," holds true for any non-traditional candidate, including athiests. Unfortunately, if you start out with 70% negatives, you're likely not going to get close enough to sniff the nomination. But yeah, I'm with you ideoligically on that.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
38. It becomes a fact-based question
If an "X" candidate is certain to lose, that's out. If he has a fighting chance, we should not over-estimate his deficits.

I do not think a black man is unelectable, but some black men are unelectable for reasons that involve race.

I would rather have a black candidate who is older and a combat veteran, for instance. Obama's personality with Charlie Rangel's resume would be a great combination.

The Obama problem isn't that he is black, it's that he is black and young and inexperienced and lacking compensating factors like a chest full of medals or being famous for something other than running for president.

His race is not an independent varriable... there's no "all other things being equal."

I think Obama has shown beyond a doubt that a black man can be elected president. I don't think he has shown that HE can be elected president. (Ironically, Obama's campaign has convinced me that Colin Powell could have won in 2000)

But Obama has a real shot. So that's cool.
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Great point.
The race issue is a variable for some, but not the only variable.

Although I could flip your argument and say that Obama's relative newness is an asset and not a liability (Or both, depending).

Suffice to say I think he is fortunate not to have had to cast an IWR vote. I wonder if he would have had the fortitude to stand against the tide which was clamoring for war. He says he would have, but hell, I think HRC would also if she were able. No one, save McCain, wants to be associated with that war.
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TheDoorbellRang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. If that candidate was doing as well as Obama has, sure why not? n/t
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. And that's the key. Well said.
To diss. Obama now would be to diss. the Party's most loyal voting block. Obama is doing very well, in some very white states, and is showing he can win. 95% of the racists who would never vote for a black man were going to vote Republican, any way. We haven't lost those votes; we never had them.

And if an atheist could win in Utah, that person might make an awesome nominee.

-Laelth
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. You said it better than I could.
Edited on Thu Mar-13-08 01:50 PM by reflection
"We never had them." And you know what? I don't care if we get them or not. I'd rather racists be out front and center where they can be spotted and ridiculed. If I were a hardcore Democrat or Republican, I wouldn't want them "passing" as one of my own.

(edit to correct spelling)
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woolldog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
48. Obama getting elected
makes all of that a lot more likely. He's breaking the mold (white, male, old and protestant). That's good for everyone who doesn't fit the mold
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Qutzupalotl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. Happy to recommend a well-thought-out post.
You are right to say don't reward bigotry by perpetuating it. Call it a hunch, but I think the younger voters especially are ready to reject limitations based on race.
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Nia Zuri Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
7. I'm a former lurker since 2004....just started posting
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keithjx Donating Member (758 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
8. Props to a true lurker, from a lurker wannabe
I thought I was a borderline lurker because I've been here since '04 on still haven't broken 700. You are an inspiration to lurker wannabe's everywhere.

Seriously, though, great post. Thanks for opening up and sharing it.
:thumbsup:
KJ
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Green Mountain Dem Donating Member (784 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
31. Hey lurker wannabe......
remember when it was like the "kiss of death" to become a member of the 700 Club? I finally did it after a few years lurking...it's no big deal so post away and come join me!
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
10. I lurk for the most part, but I agree
with you 100%. If it weren't for forward thinkers in society, we'd still be living in caves.
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Bigleaf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. Great post! Thanks.
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. Thank you.
I feel the same way about HRC and the whole "she's unelectable because she's a woman" idea. Although there are undoubtedly some men who would not vote for a woman either. Why would anyone want to limit their pool of candidates by any criteria other than ideology? It makes no sense to me.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
13. Welcome to DU, reflection.
Off to the greatest page with you! :hi:
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. Hey thanks!
I really appreciate that. I've read a lot of your posts and have a great deal of respect for you.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
14. Thanks for your post, reflection...
So logical but needs to written down. Actually, Obama will win and we won't be just settling for the lesser.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
16. Thank you for lurking.
I agree with all your points. I'm not a huge fan of Obama's, but he has my unequivocal support this year. Once my preferred candidate tanked in January, I considered him the best of a batch of Democrats still running and he's certainly very qualified to do the job. He expresses an understanding of the issues the next president will have to deal with and communicates a focus on trying to solve the problems our country has rather than, say, just being willing to fight over those problems.

I think about 90% of the stuff that is getting my fellow Obama supporters on DU riled up can be safely ignored. The problem is that race, as a topic, has a way of making Americans turn into mewling, blithering morons. We, as a people, simply cannot address the subject intelligently. Once the topic comes up, we hijack ourselves and quit talking about important things that affect our lives.

I agree that we'll lose a few votes to Obama's race, but I think it's probably folks who wouldn't vote Dem anyway
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
18. delete
Edited on Thu Mar-13-08 01:31 PM by votesomemore
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Estel Donating Member (112 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
19. Been lurking for four years
with a few posts during 2004 election. How refreshing your post is! I especially like the "feces-flinging" comment. I've added to my Ignore list every day for about a month. I hate how mean-spirited it has gotten here.
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
20. So many nice reactions!
Can't someone flame me? :)

Seriously though, thanks for all the nice comments.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
21. Need not apply...
exactly. That's what some say, certainly.

I love his fresh approach and that isn't measured in color.

I'm glad you stepped into the light. Nice post :thumbsup:
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BumRushDaShow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
23. Another lurker turned poster giving your post a K&R!
:kick:
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
25. good post - your line here explains it all pretty clearly:
""If you are going to say that we cannot nominate a black man because he is unelectable, then let's just cut through the crap and tell black people they need not apply again.""

clear as a bell.

bang on.

right on.

now let the bigots squirm.
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Liberal OIF Vet Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
27. Lurker here as well...
Edited on Thu Mar-13-08 01:58 PM by Liberal OIF Vet
Good stuff. As opposed to some of the delusional piffle being posted here, your post was a breath of fresh air.
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. Fresh hair?
Well thanks. I use a jojoba conditioner because that's what my wife buys. :)

Gee my hair smells terrific.
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housewolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
32. "Some women won't vote for Hillary"
is just as true. Not all women will vote for Hillary if she gets the nomination. Not all blacks will vote for Obama if he gets the nomination. Not all white men will vote for McCain if he gets the nomination.

What's not true is the idea all people who voted for Hillary in the primary elections will vote for McCain in the GE. What's also not true is the idea that all people who voted for Obama in the primary elections will vote for McCain in the GE. Most people who agree with Dem ideas will vote for whichever Dem candidate wins the nomination.
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Hear hear.
You cannot extrapolate the results of a primary and apply them to the GE. For instance, I see no way that Obama wins Mississippi. However, I don't see him losing California either.
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CakeGrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
33. Well-said from another lurker! n/t
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
37. Welcome to non-lurking DU
:hi:

Excellant post, and here's a K&R for it.
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
40. And sure enough, Mark Penn
trots out the "Obama is unelectable" canard right on cue.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0308/Penn_Obama_really_cant_win_the_general.html

Tell us why, Penn.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
41. Good post, but a little too sane and reasonable.
Can we try to avoid that in the future?
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. If you insist.
OMGWTFLOLBBQ!!!1
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. I'm just saying we don't usually go for that around here...
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. I know. Just horsing around.
And my apologies to any horses here on DU. I was in no way trying to belittle horsism. :)
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Me, too.
Welcome to DU posting.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
42. Man, that's some disciplined lurking n/t
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
45. K & R
:thumbsup:
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kotsu Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
49. I'm going to go out on a limb here
and say that, if anything, being black will be an advantage. Those who will not vote for Obama because he is black will not vote for any Democrat that runs...period. Democrats will vote for whoever is nominated. AA's will forget party lines. Voting for a black man for president will supersede just about anything else.

The Democrats main problem for years has been worrying about running a candidate that the GOP will like. Ain't gonna happen. If we lose this election; it won't be because the Republicans didn't vote for him.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
50. When is someone going to start recognizing that black Americans
are the BASE of the Democratic Party! Southern whites and blue collar ethnics have been unfaithful in past elections.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
51. Hi - grateful to have a thoughtful analysis up in this forum.
.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-13-08 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
52. It's well to remember Colin Powell ...
caved to the status quo.
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