The question that cannot be asked

[BigDaddy44]

I only ask this because I know this is an intelligent, contemplative group that can discuss issues without knee-jerk responses.

I'm going to play devils advocate, as I think think Geraldine Ferraro has been run through the ringer even though she's been a loyal democrat for a half century, and from everything I've heard doesn't have a racist bone in her body.

Senator Obama came to national attention when he gave the keynote address during the 2004 Democratic National Convention. At the time, he was a State Senator from Illinois. Do the Ferraro bashers in this room believe that Senator Obama would have been invited to give that address if he was white? Is there any precedent for a local candidate with a limited resume giving such an important address. (For what its worth, Bill Clinton gave the keynote address at the 1988 Democratic National Convention, and was arguably a local (and not national) figure at the time, but he was a Governor, and had been for many years.)

I postulate that Senator Obama's life story and oratory skills, combined with the fact that yes, he was black, made him the perfect selection to give that address, and demonstrate the new face of the Democratic party. So yes, part of the reason that Senator Obama is in the position he is in is because he is black. Is that such a bad thing?

I will now don my flame resistant suit.

[sniffa]

1. Please stop

By "playing devil's advocate," you've just absolved Jellybean of any wrong doing on her part, and you've given comfort to the more delusional Hillary supporters here to continue their race-baiting.

edit: Pat Buchanan agrees with you (watched him say this 3 different times last night).

[Apollo11]

2. But you just *had* to ask it!

And now MSNBC is going to blame Hillary for your supposedly racist comments! :mad:

[kennetha]

3. It's not just that

Many African Americans are voting for him at least partly out of a sense of racial pride and racial solidarity.

Many Whites are voting for him because he is a "post-racial" guy, because they think he transcends race. But he couldn't transcend race without being an African American. Racial transcendence is simply not something that a white candidate can offer up directly. But white people can endorse racial transcendence by vote for a race-transcending black guy.

So Geraldine kind of does get it right. His race does put him in a special position. If he were a not yet one-term white senator, with no particular accomplishments and nothing but a powerful speaking ability to his credit he would not necessarily be in anything like his current position.

That is actually OBVIOUS.

[Mooney]

27. Wouldn't he be John Edwards? n/t

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

4. And if Hillary was a male

she probably would never have been first lady of Arkansas, then first lady of the U.S. So she would have missed out on all that experience. And she would not have gained the connections that got her elected as a senator from New York. So would probably not be in the race for the presidency.

Is she in her position because she's female?

:wtf:

:popcorn:

[MonkeyFunk]

9. And if some pundit made that argument

would you freak out?

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

16. No. It's just one component of background

Some of Hillary's experience is due to the fact that she's a woman. Some of Barack's experience is due to the fact that he's (part) black. To speculate on where either would be if they were different than they are is sort of ridiculous.

I was trying (apparently ineffectively) to poke fun at the OP.

It reminded me of an old Saturday Night Live skit: "What if Spartacus had a Piper Cub?".

[MonkeyFunk]

19. Right!

Some of their experience is due to their race and/or gender. And that's what Ferraro said.

She never said the ONLY reason he's where he is is because he's black, no matter how many people here try to pretend that's what she said.

[BigDaddy44]

13. Is Ferraro a sexist?

Ferraro has repeatedly said that she wouldn't have been the VP selection in 1984 if she wasn't a woman. Does that make her a sexist too?

[cooolandrew]

5. It is a patronising view and one that has not even looked closely at who barack is.

It may notbe your view but without question it is patronaising by whoever holds it. It would be like saying HRC is where she is for bing a woman a ludicrous view.

[olkaz]

6. Can we stop it with the Ferraro worship?

I have seen her on Fox News TONS of times.

Along with the uber-progressive hero, Harold Ford Jr.

Ugh.

[BigDaddy44]

7. There is no worship at all

Its just a bit disconcerting when a loyal democratic gets thrown under the bus for giving an opinion. An opinion that may be a bit controversial perhaps, but in my opinion certainly isn't racist. I've seen Ms. Ferraro been called just about every name in the book in the past day or so, but I've seen little if any discussion on why what she specifically said was incorrect.

Are we that afraid of honest opinions?

[kennetha]

8. THe Obama Campaign is slimy

They are experts are appearing to keep their hands clean, while subtly playing the race card.

[sniffa]

10. Yeah, for giving an opinion, or as she calls it, "the truth."

It's totally fucking racist, and usually, when a right winger says that exact same sentence about a black person, we rightfully skewer them for it.

You know who else was a long, loyal Dem? Andrew Jackson. I mean, I know he genocided and all, but isn't it enough that he founded the party?

[BigDaddy44]

12. Why is it racist?

I'm waiting for the logical argument. There's a tendency to immediately back down as soon as the word "racist" is invoked. Well, I'm not going to do that. What makes it racist?

[sniffa]

22. Are you being sincere in that question?

I doubt it, but if you are, then you need to look at yourself.

Then again, my old dentist was a black man, who graduated from Harvard. I stopped going to him because I realized the only reason he went to Harvard, was because he's black. In fact, he's probably unqualified.

[MadHound]

30. Do you honestly not get it? Let me spell it out for you

Remember when most of this country, outside the knuckledragging crowd, jumped on Limbaugh for being a racist after he made the statement about Donovan McNabb? That's the same sort of belittling statement that Ferraro, and now you have made. It is the same sort of shit a knuckledragging bigot spews when he whines that the only reason that he didn't get a certain job was because the other fellow was black. No, it's not out front, in your face, use the Nbomb racist. It's a bit more subtle, but most people get it and abhor it. It is saying that somebody gets somewhere only because of their skin color. Now do you get it?

[olkaz]

11. Loyal?

Loyal is the wrong word. Loyal Democrats don't make racial remarks, or make a living on Fox News. That's more the hallmark of an opportunist, if anything.

She was irrelevent to begin with, and she is irrelevent now. She said some inflammatory things to garner attention, and she was successful. Hillary should have repudiated her immediately, and we should have all moved on.

The whole situation just makes me ill.

[K Gardner]

14. Just stop it. There is absolutely no point to this.

[Armstead]

15. She reinforced a racist notion

Her statement was presumptious in a racist sense that had no place during a political campaign.

She did not merely say that being an African American was an asset for Obama....No she said he would not be where he is today if he were not one.

There is a big difference there.

We are all the sum total of our personal experiences and our personal qualities. It is absolutely impossible to say what Obama's life experiences and his goals would have been if he were white.

Perhaps he were white he still would have been recognized for his gifts in a lily white district and had an equally swift rise. Who knows?

But it is racist (even if it is unknowing racism) to claim that if he were not a black male he would not have achieved the same degree of success.

[Orangepeel]

17. Well, he *was* about to win the IL Senate race in a crushing victory

He'd won a bruising primary to get the point where the IL GOP couldn't even find anyone to run against him. It's silly to pretend he was some random local politician. Black, white or purple, he was a rising star in the party and one that Kerry thought would be able to give an inspiring speech about bringing the country together.

I'll concede the possibility that Kerry thought it was a bonus that Obama would represent the diversity in the Democratic party. But that is a far, far, cry from saying that Obama is where he is because he is black. Given the proportion of African Americans who have been elected to national or even state office, it is more likely that he is where he is in spite of being black.

In reality, he is where he is because he has run a kick ass campaign and because he has a rare talent for inspiring people who aren't typically involved in politics to actually vote.

[FredScuttle]

18. Ferraro is a disgusting race-baiting piece of shit who pisses all over the positive legacy she had

and if you can't see how her statement was racist, well then there's little help I can provide you.

Good luck with Hillary and her race-baiting crowd.

Oh, by the way.....Ann Richards delivered her famous 1988 Democratic Convention keynote address when she was Texas' state treasurer. Was she given the opportunity because she was a middle-aged white woman? Or was it the fact that she was a damn rousing speaker and brought the house down?

[Straight Shooter]

20. As far as I know, Kerry was responsible for choosing Obama.

Barack's speech was boilerplate "feel good" Democratic rhetoric cake, with just enough patriotic icing glazed on. I read an excellent article which deconstructed the concepts inherent in the speech, but damned if I didn't fail to save the link.

It doesn't take much to impress a desperate audience looking to be rescued from the clutches of the GOP. Hell, I'd vote for a cowpile before I'd cast a vote for McCain.

I wonder what Kerry has been promised in exchange for that favor ....

[ourbluenation]

21. I'm so sick of race coming up. The man is golden. That's why he spoke at the convention

He is a great speaker. And he lived up to the expectations with that speech. I loved his message then and now.

[LTR]

23. I'll take it in a different direction and say it was youth

Let's face it, both parties are looking for young up-and-comers in their respective parties. They can't evolve by trotting out the same old warhorses (the GOP is in serious trouble in this regard). In Obama, they see a dynamic young politician who can excite many, as Bill Clinton and JFK had done earlier. The Democrats know that one of the best untapped wells of supporters is young people. And that definitely worked for WJC and JFK.

[ecstatic]

24. WTF? Can yall let this go? Kerry saw some of his speeches and was

inspired. That's the end of it.

[rucky]

25. She made a disparaging and dismissive remark based on his race.

It's academic.

What's the point of her making that point?

[zalinda]

26. You are right

And, I think there is more to the story. The dem party thinks that this Presidential election is a cake walk. They knew that Clinton was going to run. But, just in case they wanted a black guy running too, so that they could say that the dems put the first woman or black man in the white house. They wanted this historic race. Hell, the media wanted this historic race. Look what it's done for ratings. I mean how many white girls can go missing to keep their ratings up. The media and the dem party bigwigs WANTED this because it would mean bigger ratings for all. The dems contributions are way up, and the media's ad revenue has climbed. I had often wondered about Michelle's comment about this is the time. Yes, this is the time because the dems are SO SURE that they are going to grab the white house, that they have interfered with the process.

I don't like Obama or Clinton, my guy was elbowed out of the race, by the media and the dem party. I have sat back and looked at what has happened. The truth is, Clinton wouldn't be where she is if she hadn't married Bill, or maybe she would, we'll never know. But, we do know that Clinton wouldn't have gotten the press treatment she has, if she hadn't been married to Bill. And, Obama wouldn't be where he is if he wasn't black, and it has nothing to do with affirmative action. He was selected to speak at the dem convention BECAUSE he was black and young, a new vision of what the dem party is, front and center. He has gotten a lot of press, because he IS the first black person running for President, well the first serious contender. He has gotten a pass on a lot of things because this still is a racist country, no matter what people here say. Any type of slight against Obama has been slammed as racist, and the media knows this. They would never have given such leeway to a white male candidate, hell, just a white candidate. Clinton gets filleted on TV all the time, but of course, that's okay, since she is a Clinton, and well, we can't quite break that old habit.

Of course, many of you Obama supporters will call me the pet names you have for the Hillary supporters, or better yet, you will call me racist. But, let me tell you, I was proud when Jesse Jackson ran for President, and would have voted for him in a heartbeat. I am not proud of Obama, and I find him to be a seriously flawed candidate. I am not proud of what the dem party has become. I am not proud of all the bickering and tearing down of good people. While I would have been proud to vote for a woman or a black man for President, I am not proud of EITHER of the 2 dem candidates left standing. Nor am I proud of their supporters who twist every little thing into some sort of denigration of the other candidate.

I think the dems will be surprised in November when they don't get their historic President. Nothing about this 2008 primary has anything to be proud about. And, the stupid thing is, if the dem party and the media had played it straight, we would have won everything big time. And, now, even with Bush polling at about 19%, you will find that many people will still vote repub, because McCain isn't Bush. The country will look at McCain with fresh eyes, and he doesn't look that bad at first glance. Whether or not anyone here will admit it, most dems are fair weather dems in this country. And, if Obama supporters and Clinton supporters have beaten each other to a pulp, especially in the public eye, they will look to the repub party, who has run a very cool, calm and collected primary.

zalinda

[onenote]

28. Why Ferraro deserved to be run through the ringer, and you don't

Your post actually illustrates why Ferraro deserved to be run through the ringer. Compare the words she chose with the words you chose. She didn't hedge, didn't qualify, didn't suggest that race was "part of the reason" Obama is "in the poistion he is in", didn't refer to Obama's life story and and oratory skills or any other attributes he had that might attract voters to his campaign.

And she should've known better than to have paint with such a broad brush. Any Democrat who has been around as long as she has should be sensitive to how language has been used to convey hurtful messages, to how the language of bigots has sometimes included statements that come too close to hers (e.g., "that black person didn't get their job, or didn't get into that college, based on merit, they got in because they were black").

You knew better. Ferraro should have.

As an additional aside, was part of the reason that Obama was the keynoter that he was black? Probably. It also was part of the reason that Barbara Jordan was the keynoter in 1976 and 1992, and part of the reason that Harold Ford was a keynoter in 2000. Was the fact Ann Richards was a woman part of the reason she was the keynoter in 1988 -- almost certainly. But it wasn't the only reason in any of those instances. (Just as the fact that he was black isn't the only reason Harold Ford was elected -- he, like the 1996 keynoter, Evan Bayh, also benefitted from being related closely to a prominent elected Democrat. Just as Hillary has benefitted from being closely related to a prominent elected Democrat. But these characteristics -- familial ties, gender, race -- all can be viewed as a mixed blessing. Being a "Clinton" isn't necessarily a positive for many voters, just as I'm sure that there are voters who didn't like Evan Bayh's dad or Harold Ford's dad. And being a woman and/or black is not a plus for a certain portion of the electorate as well.

Again, you seem to grasp the complexity of these matters. Ferraro either didn't or chose to ignore them to score a cheap shot.

[Kokonoe]

29. Ok, how about this devils advocate.

Obama was allowed to run against Clinton in a two-way race from the start,
and media can black out the democratic field as they wither on the vine.

Obama was allowed to be a front runner, because a black man is not supposed to win.


This is what Ms Ferraro said in the beginning December 10, 2006.

“I think it’s more realistic for a woman than it is for an African-American,” said Ms. Ferraro.
“There is a certain amount of racism that exists in the United States — whether it’s conscious or not it’s true.”

Her words tell, she knew the race remark could effect the election.

She repeated the statement until it went mainstream.