Clinton supporters have finally helped me make up my mind.

[The Doctor.]

Thank you Hillary supporters!

For the longest time I’ve been on the fence and even leaning towards Obama. These last couple of days have been very enlightening; I’ve had a great opportunity to review the arguments on both sides, investigate links, and take stock. For a while I refused to pick any candidate, then I even flirted with supporting Eggplant for President… boy what a firestorm that ticked off! At long last, and after trying to stay relatively neutral until quite recently, I’ve decided that there are just enough batshit crazy Hillary supporters to turn me off the candidate entirely.

Now I know, these people could just be feigning support for Clinton in order to paint her body of supporters as ranting, frothing, detached-from-reality sycophants. I’ve taken that into account, and if that is really the case, then I expect we’ll see more of the same in the run up to November. I’ll pass.

I came here to DU because of the insanity of Bush’s America. People were defending his every idiotic word, they would scream that anyone who criticized Bush was “irrational” or “unpatriotic”, yet when you put these people on the spot, they had nothing but invective and derision. So I found DU, a place where empirical reality was at least respected where not thoroughly upheld… and it was good.

I didn’t come to DU to make friends, though I have. I’m not here to be part of a popularity contest, or even guard my reputation from signs of bias to ensure that if I have something important to say, no one would ignore it because it came from me. Nope, never really cared about that. What I cared about most, the one thing I found here that the rest of America sparsely offered, was the truth… or at least the closest proximity thereof.

I found a place where if you said something, people would expect you to back it up. It was here, and such it has been for the years I’ve been here, that if a DUer expressed dislike for any individual, he or she most likely had a rational reason.

Well, in these last couple of days, I’ve watched a large number of Hillary supporters come completely unhinged.
Most expressly over what should have been reduced to a nothingth of an issue; The resignation of a finance committee member in New Jersey because of unauthorized credit card charges.

What should have been one minor little issue, something that could have been treated by Hillary supporters as ‘isolated’ to one small body in one state instead drove them insane. Accusations that ‘the woman is a liar!’, ‘the OP is a lie!’, and “That’s been debunked!” might have had some merit, but over two days, several threads, and despite repeated requests for information, I’ve seen nothing that puts lie to the account.

It’s not even an issue I care all that much about, but it seems that one minor issue is all it takes for the Clinton supporters to go nuts and start screaming that their candidate is ‘unfairly’ treated by the media. How conveniently they forget that she’s pulled real dirty tricks and gone so far as to promote the Republican candidate over another Democrat. I’m starkly reminded of Bush supporters declaring that ‘Liberals have an ‘irrational’ hatred of Bush, where a simple Q+A, a little fact finding, or just paying attention to what Liberals are saying would prove that hatred of Bush is rational.

Well, I haven’t seen any real “Hatred” of Clinton here. I’m sure it’s about, but most people don’t ‘hate’ her, they’re just pissed off at her actions.

So, I suppose I’ll wind up on many people’s already exceptionally long lists, and I’ll be the target of obnoxious screeds while being told that ‘Obama supporters are rude!’, and I’m sure that I’ll be called a ‘sexist’ as well. Heck, this may be a great opportunity for a Clinton supporter to either produce something of value or, failing that, apologize for other supporters rudeness. While I’m at it, if any Obama supporters feel they’ve gone over the line and want to repent, why not?

Meanwhile, I’ve found the lion’s share of irrationality is demonstrably coming from the Hillary people.

At this point, I’d rather not support a candidate that inspires people to detach from reality as I’ve seen the Hillary supporters do recently. They can get back to reality anytime, it might even help their candidate, but for now, my reality-based candidate, no matter how ‘idealistic’ he may seem, is Barak Obama.



PS: I know, we might expect an 'Obama supporters helped me make up my mind' thread, good luck keeping it reality-based.

[IsItJustMe]

1. I have seen a lot of insanity over the years, and besides the Bush version of reality, Hillary's is

a close second. A month ago, I would of picked Obama or Clinton, now there is no way in hell I could support Hillary.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

76. Same here

I was saying I would vote for Obama quite enthusiastically whereas I'd vote for Hillary with my nose pinched. Now I don't know if I can vote for her on principle.

[rambler_american]

137. if Hillary is the nominee

I will vote for her, but great googley moogley I don't want to be put in that position. When you vote for the lesser of two evils you are still voting for evil.

[tblue]

165. Well, I wouldn't call her evil. But her character has been seriously called into question.

The Clinton legacy is going to hell, and it's a doggone shame.

[Kahuna]

80. Why do you hate women?

:sarcasm: Just kidding. ;)

[niceypoo]

84. I have yet to see an Obama supporter sell Obama on his policies...

...all I have seen are attacks on Hillary, and her supporters, from Obama supporters.

This is Obama's fault because he never talks about anything but Hillary.

[Egnever]

89. Hard to hear with your fingers in your ears.

[jconner27]

109. Nothing is nothing

Other than he's dreamy Obama supporters have yet tell people why he's more ready to be president. I listen to she hag aka Randi Rhodes and all the Obama supporters say the same thing he's ready but don't say anything just pull things out their ass.

[BornBlue]

123. How about more legislative experience than her?

You need to actually read what people are writing and listen to what people are saying, or, I don't know visit his web site where all of his policies are posted. Form an opinion for yourself, go out and research.

I will also explain here why I don't think she will ever be ready to be president: she has very poor judgment. This is not an attack on her, it is not sexist, I am a woman, it is history. History tells us a lot, and her history tells me we will never be able to trust her. Her history tells us that she looks out for number 1. I came across this clever little link, it is a good teaching guide.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-k-wilson/a-clinton-scandal-primer_b_87792.html

I know, I know, Obama does not have a spotless history either, but as far as I know his list is a lot shorter, and he was up front and honest about a lot of his past, whereas she has not.

[jconner27]

126. Don't make me laugh

Your guy is scare take any stances it's easy to be against war where you're running in a liberal district for state senate then actually being in the U.S. senate where you have elder Dems are telling you to go along with the program oh by the way he said he's on the same page as George W. Bush on Iraq in 2004. As for judgememt you cult followers beat Hillary over the head regarding Iran but he didn't vote at all. So you don't know his true feelings on Iran other than the bullshit he feeds you. If you want to lose, fine then fucking lose but don't say shit when McCain is sworn in.

[BornBlue]

138. Feel better now?

I hope you got that all out of your system. Now why don't you re-read my post, and respond to that? See a debate usually has 2 sides speaking reasonably, and addressing each others point, not completely ignoring what the other side said. This kind of response is exactly what the good Dr. was talking about. You asked for reasons why Obama is better. I told you I feel his longer legislative experience gives him the edge, as well as how I don't trust Hillary based on the link I provided you, but you chose to ignore that.

I don't understand why it has to be Hillary or nothing. I thought the most important thing was to win the White House in the fall, yet a lot of Hillary supporters insist that they would rather fore-fit the election to punish the party for not supporting her. That seems awfully undemocratic to me.

For your comments, I would actually like to address.

I will concede the State Senate argument. It really has no basis on anything we were discussing anyway.

"being in the U.S. senate where you have elder Dems are telling you to go along with the program"
This just makes no sense. This is what Obama supporters want to stop. We are tired of the elders telling us to go along with the program, I guess thinking for yourself is not a positive in your book.

"oh by the way he said he's on the same page as George W. Bush on Iraq in 2004"
disproved here: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/378/
if you don't want to actually read I will even paraphrase for you:
Hillary misrepresents what Obama said. Obama's view was now that we are there we have to find a way to stabilize the region and get out.
Things change when you have different circumstances, when he gave "the speech" in 2002 it was before we invaded Iraq, in 2004 we were already in Iraq, See the difference? This is as ridiculous as "he has voted every time to fund the war". Same principle here, since we are there we want the troops on the ground to have the supplies they need. We can't send them half-way around the world to fight a war with out bullets and armor and other vital supplies. These things cost money, and he has been very vocal about veterans needing support.

As for Iran, I have said in other posts that I do not support everything that he does. Honestly he dropped the ball. No other way of putting it, but at least he did not vote for a second time to give Bush the power to invade another country while we are already fighting a 2 front war. I don't know if you know this, but it is VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE to win a 2 front war, wanna lessen the chances of victory and start a 3rd front?

[jconner27]

173. No because you chose to help the Republicans.

Here's the deal here, from my point of view this whole Democratic party civil war was started by the Obama supporters, before this whole crap throwing festival started I may prefer Sen. Clinton over Sen. Obama but I would acted like Sen. Obama was my first choice if he had secured. I can understand people that support Sen. Obama but using Republican talking points and crap from Free Republic to justify why Obama should be president doesn't fly. That tells me a lot about your guy that he is so limited that you have to dig up crap from 12 years ago to make him look good. They're mirror image of each other but according to Obama supporters there's a huge difference.
I'll talk about the comment you linked up in a moment, but first two issue I have to take up with you one the Iraq vote, I think the point missed here by Obama supporters is that yeah it's great to be an anti war Democrat too bad he was being an anti war Democrat in a liberal district in Illinois where any other position would have doomed his political career. It's very easy to bitch about the quarterback while sitting in a nice leather chair isn't Sen. Obama? As for your other comment: "I don't understand why it has to be Hillary or nothing. I thought the most important thing was to win the White House in the fall, yet a lot of Hillary supporters insist that they would rather fore-fit the election to punish the party for not supporting her. That seems awfully undemocratic to me." are you kidding me, have you not tuned in to these progressive shows since they start whoring for Obama? Pro Obama caller, after pro Obama caller have stated eww if she wins I won't vote for her, yet if any Hillary caller made that statement eww if Obama wins, I won't vote for him would be accused of helping the Republicans or they're destroying the party etc. Why is it ok for Obama supporters to state they will not vote for Hillary if she wins, while if I state I won't support Sen. Obama I would be called a big baby.

Another trend I see which makes me sick is where Obama followers are saying if he wins we got come together for November, Obama supporters were prepare to stab the Democratic party in the back if they didn't get their way but now since it looks like you about to get your way you want us to fall in line like good little Democratic soldiers and go to battle with you to get him elected. After knowing what you guys were going to do if Obama lost, can you honestly say you can blame Clinton supporters? If Obama says he is i.e he has better judgement again he hid from voting on Iran.

Finally a link to your comment this is from Joe Wilson http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-wilson/obamas-hollow-judgment_b_89441.html

Obama's Hollow "Judgment" and Empty Record
Barack Obama argues that he deserves the Democratic nomination and Hillary Clinton doesn't because he possesses superior "judgment," as he calls it, on the key issues we face as a nation. As definitive proof he offers one speech he made in 2002 during a reelection campaign for an Illinois senate seat in the most liberal district in the state, so liberal that no other position would have been viable. When he made that speech, Obama was not privy to the briefings by, among others, Secretary of State Colin Powell, in support of the Authorization of Use of Military Force as a diplomatic tool to push the international community to impose intrusive inspections on Saddam Hussein.

Would Obama have acted differently had he been in Washington or had he had the benefit of the arguments and the intelligence that the administration was offering to the Congress debating that resolution? During the 2002-2003 timeframe, he was a minor local official uninvolved in the national debate on the war so we can only judge from his own statements prior to the 2008 campaign. Obama repeated these points in a whole host of interviews prior to announcing his candidacy. On July 27, 2004, he told the Chicago Tribune on Iraq: "There's not much of a difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage." In his book, The Audacity of Hope, published in 2006, he wrote, "...on the merits I didn't consider the case against war to be cut-and- dried." And, in 2006, he clearly said, "I'm always careful to say that I was not in the Senate, so perhaps the reason I thought it was such a bad idea was that I didn't have the benefit of US intelligence. And for those who did, it might have led to a different set of choices."

I was involved in that debate in every step of the effort to prevent this senseless war and I profoundly resent Obama's distortion of George Bush's folly into Hillary Clinton's responsibility. I was in the middle of the debate in Washington. Obama wasn't there. I remember what was said and done. In fact, the administration lied in order to secure support for its war of choice, including cooking the intelligence and misleading Congress about the intent of the authorization. Senator Clinton's position, stated in her floor speech, was in favor of allowing the United Nations weapons inspectors to complete their mission and to build a broad international coalition. Bush rejected her path. It was his war of choice.

There is no credible reason to conclude that Obama would have acted any differently in voting for the authorization had he been in the Senate at that time. Indeed, he has said as much. The supposed intuitive judgment he exercised in his 2002 speech was nothing more than the pander of a local election campaign, just as his current assertions of superior judgment and scurrilous attacks on Hillary Clinton are a pander to those who now retroactively think the war was a mistake without bothering to acknowledge Senator Clinton's actual position at the time and instead fantasizing that she was nothing but a Bush clone. Obama willfully encourages and plays off this falsehood.

What should we make of Obama's other judgments in foreign affairs? Take Afghanistan, for example. It has been evident for some time that our efforts there are going badly and that cooperation and support from our NATO allies would be helpful. As chairman of the subcommittee on Senate Foreign Relations responsible for NATO and Europe, Obama could have used his lofty position actually to engage the issue and pressure the administration to take some action to improve our chance of success in that conflict against the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Of course, that would have involved holding hearings, questioning administration witnesses, and taking a position and offering alternatives. That is what we expect that from senators in a democracy. It is called oversight.

But, instead, Obama, by his own admission, offers the excuse that he has been too busy running for president to do anything substantive, such as direct his staff to organize a single hearing. "Well, first of all," Obama was forced to confess in the Democratic debate in Ohio on February 26, "I became chairman of this committee at the beginning of this campaign, at the beginning of 2007. So it is true that we haven't had oversight hearings on Afghanistan." To date, his subcommittee has held no policy hearings at all -- none. At the same time that Obama claimed he was too busy campaigning to do anything substantive, racking up one of the worst attendance records in the Senate, Senator Clinton chaired extensive hearings of the Subcommittee on Superfund and Environmental Health and attended many others as a member of the Armed Service Committee.

As a consequence of Obama's dereliction of duty on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, a feckless administration has had absolutely no oversight as it careens from disaster to disaster in Afghanistan, including the central governments loss of control over 70 percent of the country and yet another bumper crop of opium to fuel the efforts of the Taliban and their terrorist allies. Of course, if you don't hold hearings, conduct oversight, make recommendations or sponsor legislation, then you have no record to explain or defend and you are free to take whatever position is convenient when attacking those who actually did address issues. Meanwhile, on the campaign trail, Obama holds forth on Afghanistan, chiding the administration and our allies as though he's a profile in courage and not someone who has abandoned his post in establishing accountability.

On Iran and the question of designating the Iranian Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization, the junior senator from Illinois was not quite so clever at avoiding taking a position. He first co-sponsored the "Counter-Proliferation Act of 2007," which contained explicit language identifying the Iranian Revolutionary Guards as a terrorist organization. He subsequently claimed to oppose the Kyl-Lieberman sense of the Senate resolution proposing the same thing. Obama's accountability problem here is that he didn't show up for the vote on that resolution -- a vote that would have put him on record. Then he declined to sign on to a letter put forward by Senator Clinton making explicit that the resolution could not be used as authority to take military action. All we have is Obama's rhetoric juxtaposed with his co-sponsorship of a piece of legislation that proposed what he says he opposed.

Obama's gyrations on Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran are not the actions of one imbued with superior intuitive judgment, but rather the machinations of a political opportunist looking to avoid having his fingerprints on any issue that might be controversial, and require real judgment, while preserving his freedom to bludgeon his adversary for actually taking positions as elected office demands. It is hard to discern whether Senator Obama is a man of principle, but it is clear that he is not a man of substance. And that judgment, based on his hollow record, is inescapable.

[BornBlue]

188. I am saying either way it is wrong

I don't care for the Obama supporters that say they will not support Hillary if she wins in the fall, although with her recent conduct I cannot blame them. She is a fighter that is true, but you have to keep sight of what you are fighting for. I don't think she is fighting to better the country any longer, it seems from the outside she is fighting only to win. While there is nothing inherently wrong with that, we are at a turning point in this country and she is standing in the way of the progress we can make. By dragging this out, people are going to lose interest, or become so disgusted with the bickering that they will tune it all out again. I don't want to go back to millions of people only caring about which celebrity did what. I am 23 years old, and quite disgusted with my peers. The youth of America used to be the vehicle for change, now they are consumers. Obama is starting to wake these people up, and that to me is important. I don't see Obama as a Christ-like savior, I see him as the beginning of the change this country needs. Something new. His grass-roots campaign has been inspiring to watch, and if you look at his life honestly he should not be where he is. But here he is, and he is leading, why is that? I think it is because the majority of America is thirsty for something different. Hillary in their minds represents the establishment that has kept them poor or sent their jobs/children overseas, and Barack represents them.

As for digging up crap from 12 years ago it is fair game in my book. A persons past is the only way we can form an opinion on how they will act in the future. Actions matter, just as much as non-action as your article against Obama focuses on. Hillary's past actions have not inspired confidence in me, just as when Bush was running for office his past business failures let me know that he would not be a good leader. I am not saying that Hillary would not be a good leader, I don't know, just like I don't know about Barack. I have heard very hear-warming stories about her, but I cannot get over the feeling that she cannot be trusted with power. As for republican tactics, hasn't Hillary justified it by saying McCain will do it in the fall so why not now? Didn't she pull out the kitchen sink?

The preaching of unity makes you sick? I don't understand that, I thought we are all liberals here. I agree we a certainly not acting like it, but we need to ALL(both sides) take a step back and re-evaluate how we conduct ourselves. Are you saying that Hillary supporters don't want Obama supporters if she is the nominee? I think that is a very dangerous stance to have. If we don't come together we are going to lose in the fall, a divided democratic party cannot beat a semi-unified republican party. As for the Obama supporters, I think they feel if she does get the nomination it would be like it was stolen, rather than earned. There is no denying that he is in the lead, and if the super delegates overturn that it will cause problems. The argument that he can't win big states, is really pointless. Those big states like Cali and New York will go to him in the general, they are blue states. The big wins in traditionally red states I think are more important and deserve more focus, because he has won them with more votes than the entire republican side combined. The democratic party in non-blue states is energized around him, this is important.

As for the article you copied and pasted into your post. He was put in charge in January of 2007 and that should be ample time to conduct hearings, I agree. As a candidate for change, he should have started there. I am not going to make excuses for his actions, only he can, but I do want you to think about how many times the democrats have tried to hold the BushCo accountable and they refuses to co-operate claiming executive privilege. Our tax money should go to better purposes than wasting time with good intentions on sub-committees that will never change the current policy. You know that anything a democratic senate came up with would have been disregarded by the current administration. I do want to pose to you a question, what was going on with this sub-committee before Obama took it over? We are not holding the former chairperson accountable for not changing the direction in Afghanistan. Bush has been a disaster, we can all agree, but the entire democratic congress has allowed it to persist, to blame Obama for everything is wrong. We are in the end dealing with politicians, they are all going to tell us what we want to hear. Both sides have dark spots, too say that they don't is dishonest. I am sorry for the Obama supporters who have acted unreasonably, but to keep digging dirt on both sides is not helping. I know in my heart and mind who I believe to be the best choice, and that is Barack Obama.

[jconner27]

193. Obama supporters don't preach unity

From what's going on these past months I'm convinced the Republicans want Obama, therefore I'm not incline to help the Republicans like you and the other Obama suppporters are. I keep this one short Obama supporters want unity only if your guy wins, if she wins Obama supporters are prepare to sit on the bench and watch the Dems get creamed. What sense does that make alright Sen.Barack wins you guys go come Hillary supporters come along and help our guy win even though we was ready to fuck the party over if we didn't get the result we wanted. Yeah that fires me up to help Obama supporters, if the person I want to win gets it you guys were ready to run home, if he gets it you want I better put on a smile and help.

[Blue State Bandit]

142. He also said two sentences later...

That this is where Kerry was last year ('04 election), and that it don't matter because Bush lacks the credos to pull it off anyway.

And to portray this quote as supportive of the Iraq Invasion, or Bush's conduct proves the OP's point.

[TomBall Democrat]

132. Thanks for the enlightenment

You really have a flair with a phrase.

What poetry?

My God, you've changed my mind with your literate, well-thought argument about my posterior!

[jconner27]

185. Nothing is nothing part II

Other than giving speeches and painting himself into something he is not what else does he stands for?

[niceypoo]

125. This is a typical non response

this is exactly how Obama supporters 'sell' obama, by basically being pompous assholes.

[cameozalaznick]

93. I supported him the other day in a thread directed specifically at you

nicey poo. I didn't put down Hillary. I simply stated why I was for Obama.

[aasleka]

133. Actually, I like many of his policies including healthcare, if we changed so drastically from a

private system to a forcedpayment system like Hillary proposes the logistics would be at first nightmarish leaving the real possibility of not enough support to get it done or it fails and the next cycle dumps it as a bad idea for the next 300 years. I would much rather move slowly towards where we want to be which is national healthcare, (we need it) because the costs are simply ridiculous. Between me and my employer we pay $1000 a month, imagine if we capped that and simply paid it as taxes for the same benefits?

I like Baraks idea of a bank created to fund infrastructure, the useful lifespan of a water & sewer system is about 85 years. How old is yours? I know ours was started in the 20's and has just been added to and added too. We are facing more and more regulation and changing standards to make our water cleaner for our citizens. Maintenaince is always the first thing to go and when problems occur they are likely to be VERY bad, look at New Orleans problem with so many main breaks they have to literally replace the whole system.


Two big policy points I REALLY like about Obama.

[mckara]

143. YOU'RE RIGHT! IT'S OBAMA'S FAULT

JUST BECAUSE HE LOOKS, ACTS, AND TALKS LIKE A GREAT PRESIDENT!

[jconner27]

184. stealing the wrong party playbook

He sounds like George W. Bush eight years ago

[ekwhite]

176. OK, I'll bite...

I was an Edwards supporter until he dropped out. After that, I evaluated Clinton vs. Obama. I'll admit I looked a Clinton's negatives - NAFTA support, built-in Republican opposition, etc., but I looked at what was positive, also. Here are the positives I saw for Senator Clinton:

1. She is willing to take the fight to the Republicans. Her campaign is not likely to be taken in by swiftboating. This is also partially a negative, as she comes with a built-in opposition that has made millions of dollars by smearing her and her husband's names.
2. She has a better healthcare plan than Obama.

3. She has been a strong supporter of children's issues.

4. On most issues she is slightly to the left of Obama

Here are some of the positives I see for Senator Obama:

1. His internet-based fund raising as left him less dependent on major donors and freer to act once he gets into office.

2. He was against the war in Iraq from the beginning, demonstrating better judgement on this issue than Senator Clinton.

3. He has, in my opinion, a better immigration plan, that works on several fronts, including border security, negotiation with Mexico, adding a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants, and cracking down on employers who exploit illegal immigrants to drive down wages.

4. He has a strong position on supporting family farmers and regulating corporate farming.

5. He worked with Russ Feingold to introduce strong ethics legislation in the Senate.

There are other things I can mention for both candidates.


I think the thing that finally tipped me towards Senator Obama is that he is willing to work with people on both sides of the aisle to get things done. We are going to have to work with both Democrats and Republicans on certain issues to get our agenda passed. They may decide to slap away the olive branch if offered, but if we offer it from a position of strength and they reject it, we come out better for having tried.

[roguevalley]

94. I wonder if the op's state already voted? futile decision if they have

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hisownpetard]

106. I believe that the high point of her campaign was during the debates, when she was inclusive and

full of praise for the party and the candidates we have put forth.

The minute the debates were over, she dropped the facade and descended into the muck and mire of "politics as usual,' and imo lost
the respect she had spent months accumulating and building up. Gone, in a puff of acrid smoke that reminded many of why
they disliked or had been so leery of her to begin with.

Sad, all around.

[bling bling]

2. This sentence hit home with me:

..."I’m starkly reminded of Bush supporters declaring that ‘Liberals have an ‘irrational’ hatred of Bush, where a simple Q+A, a little fact finding, or just paying attention to what Liberals are saying would prove that hatred of Bush is rational."....

[zazzle]

152. Obamabots diaries and comments are focused on Hillary-hate --- not Obama's positions

Hate is a powerful drug - and Obamabots are high on Hillary-hate.

But maybe they don't know Obama's positions since he's flip flopped on the war, on lobbyists, on coal-to-liquid, on his pastor, on gay rights, etc. - all during the past year.

[The Doctor.]

189. Great, let's see examples.

Oh wait... you don't have any.

[grantcart]

3. While I agree with almost everything you have said, and enjoy reading

an informed opinion that is well written, and welcome anyone to the Obama camp.

But making a decision on what is written by either camp in here? Risky lol

Thanks

[anamandujano]

4. Hahahahahahahaha! Hahahahahahahaha! Hahahahahahahaha!

"I’ve found the lion’s share of irrationality is demonstrably coming from the Hillary people. "

Hahahahahahahaha! Hahahahahahahaha! Hahahahahahahaha!
Hahahahahahahaha! Hahahahahahahaha! Hahahahahahahaha!
Hahahahahahahaha! Hahahahahahahaha! Hahahahahahahaha!
Hahahahahahahaha! Hahahahahahahaha! Hahahahahahahaha!

Thanks for the laugh.

edit to add one more HA!

[The Doctor.]

9. Wow... was that supposed to be funny, demonstrative, and ironic?

Because it was a great way to illustrate my point. Thanks!

:hi:

[jgraz]

72. Don't bother. Irony is dead in that one.

[walldude]

13. So an undecided switches to Obama because of

Hillary's tactics and all you can do is laugh. You people are going to laugh yourselves right out of the nomination.

[anonymeme]

71. This Post Is Just Another Sham Post By Fakes Supposedly "Deciding" to Turn Against Hillary, Except..

This Post Is Just Another Sham Post By Fakes Supposedly "Deciding" to Turn Against Hillary, Except... these people were never for Hillary in the first place!

They all have the same story to tell and with minor changes in detail, the spew the same BS screed in almost the same words, same style and same grammatical choices.

They depend on the idea that everyone else is soooo stupid they will lap this stuff right up!

Welp, I'm not stupid and I'm collecting them in a special file... for analysis and comparison... not sure what I'll have when I'm done but a pile of verbal detritus... or what I will ultimately do with it... but the exercise amuses me.

[The Doctor.]

81. And you will believe what you want to believe.

And neither reality or trust will factor into it.

Are you a Hillary supporter by any chance?

Either way, go ahead and amuse yourself in your world where everything is exactly what you want it to be.

[niceypoo]

87. Yes, there is a pattern of Obama supporters doing this...

...in reality Obama's supporters have failed miserabally in bringing Hillary's supporters into their fold.

They should be luring them with policy, instead they do nothing but attack; negativity attracts nobody. 70% of Hillary's supporters (1/3 of Democrats) say they will not vote for Obama. This is a direct result of his supporters refusing to talk about policy, instead relying on character assassination.

[Alter Ego]

91. Hmm..

Meanwhile, Hillary's CAMPAIGN has called us the "latte-sipping" crowd, basically told us that we don't matter...and here, we've been called "cultists", "Kool-Aid drinkers", "Obamabots", "Obamites", and all sorts of other lovely names.

I'm sorry, what was your argument again?

[RaleighNCDUer]

113. Problem is, Hillary supporters don't give a crap about policy.

If they did, they wouldn't be Hillary supporters.

Her MO, for years, has been triangulation - all things to all people. There is NO solid policy there. The people that are attracted to her don't care about her lack of policy, and would not be lured away by any else's policies.

Lacking that, all that's left is to expose her for the DLC fraud she is.

[Politicalboi]

159. negativity attracts nobody

Maybe someone should tell this to Hillary

[corkhead]

171. nt

[Adelante]

88. No profile, low count newbies calling out long time, respected DUers

Welp, I'm not stupid and I'm collecting them in a special file :rofl:

[walldude]

99. Beat me too it...

While the Doc and I don't agree on every issue I have come to respect his opinion over the years. To see him called out by a noob is freakin hilarious.

[The Doctor.]

105. I always respect reason even if I don't agree with it.

And you've always had at least that.

Thanks.

:hi:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

135. OMG,

What a great respone!

:rofl:

[txaslftist]

92. Not sure what you'll have when you're done?

You'll have a list of people not to like, I suppose. And won't that be fun to hold onto.

[ExtraGriz]

107. i was for , now i'm for ...

these posts are just...blah blah blah. i agree with you, its BS masked as 'for' or 'against' a candidate.

[The Doctor.]

131. Hehehe.... up until a few weeks ago, I was a major supporter of

Eggplant for president.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4134651

I'm really beginning to think that there really are a bunch of trolls posing as Clinton supporters to lay some stink on her. Either that, or (and more likely) they are trolls who actually think they're helping her by acting like hysterical nuts.

My thanks to the small handful of rational Clinton supporters who bit their lip, stuck their nose in here, and showed that there are reasonable people in her camp.



"since dirt was in beta testing"

Thanks for the testing TS. So... who's going to run the control on this experiment? You up to it?

[ekwhite]

177. Actually, I've been a member of the Bullwinkle Moose party for a while N/T

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

114. I got news for you, Sparky:

The Good Doctor has been around this place since dirt was in beta testing. He has long been a good and responsible(well, except in The Lounge, perhaps... ;-) ) citizen here. I would certainly stop and read and contemplate anything he has to say on his decision before I would award anything from you even a grain of salt.

Something you new participants have to learn: We are fiercely protective of our own around here. We have each others backs and we might not agree with positions, but we respect them. We protect our own. We do not dine on them.

Try learning a little of the existing culture before you try widening your footprint and attacking respected members in these parts.

[mudesi]

95. Like a patient in an asylum. (nm)

[ExtraGriz]

104. i'll add one more...

Hahahahahahaha! :P

[C_U_L8R]

5. Well said.. thank you

and thank you for giving it a lot of thought and consideration.
You're a great example to us all.

[Metric System]

6. Hillary's been called a monster repeatedly here (and that's one of the kinder words used to describe

her), there have been horrible photoshopped photos of her (one in which she was burning at the stake, another where she was the Bride of Frankenstein), postings about Bill Clinton's alleged mistresses, and that's just scraping the surface.

[The Doctor.]

17. I believe it. I also think that it's highly inappropriate...

but the distinction is that such actions are not in defense of foolishness by the Obama campaign. The ridiculous claims that people who criticize Clinton for legitimate reasons are "sexist" or "irrational" are exactly 'sexist' and 'irrational'.

Thanks for being reasonable. Watch some other posts.

[shadowknows69]

34. Not to diminish DU's place in the world or anything but....

I'm betting Hillary hasn't viewed any of this fine art of which you speak. Also to be fair, I ran a poll asking if Hillary was a monster and it was about 75-25 in favor of monsterhood. Clearly the majority of DU.

[greguganus]

36. That was the Bride of Clenistein, thank you very much. n/t

[wileedog]

64. OMG SHE WAS PHOTOSHOPPED!!!!

The horror.... the horror....

[lateo]

75. Didn't her campaign photoshop Obama?

To make him look blacker? Twice?

[niceypoo]

85. No, that was a hysterical conspiracy theory by Obama supporters desperate to make race the issue...

...because Obama has failed miserably in floating his policies.

[nebula]

77. Now you know why.

[Grinchie]

110. Excuse me, but after seeing the story by Peter Paul

Hilary is a Monster...

The Peter Paul story smells so much like the US Attorney Scandal and Alberto Gonzales that it makes me shiver. It looks like she gave the Republicans the idea by stifling the lawsuit filed against her by Peter Paul. We don't want this "Extensive Experience" anymore.

[TomBall Democrat]

134. She made me think that of her

it's her handiwork -

no one here did that.

I will vote not vote for her. As a woman, I've been told by her supporters that I must vote for her because she's a woman.

Wrong woman, wrong candidate, wrong, wrong, wrong.

She changed my mind. Her behavior is responsible for my opinion.

Please don't think that it has anything at all to do with what someone here might post.

I'm capable of analyzing her actions - past and present. And she fails my personal test.

And in the end - that's my choice.

I was for Obama long before she turned me AGAINST her.

[Politicalboi]

161. Alleged?

Where's that Blue dress when ya need it. Wouldn't surprise me if he turns out to be client #1

[ourbluenation]

7. I personally wouldn't base my vote on a candidates supporters, but to each his/her own...

For the record, I voted for edwards and am now supporting obama.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. Actually I get it

I work on campaigns. And I wouldn't want to work on a campaign with people I didn't like.

[ourbluenation]

108. I work on campaigns too - but the OP was talking about the DU. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

128. And some DUers work on campaigns

[ourbluenation]

136. to be sure, but I still stand by what I said. this place is a little over the top.

+

[Thickasabrick]

8. As someone said to me a couple of days ago..welcome to the cult!!

What did it for me was the wavering on "should we or should we not torture". Obama has never wavered.

K&R!!!

[sueragingroz]

10. flamebait /nt

[The Doctor.]

20. No, I'm sincerely hoping that the Clinton supporters will cut the shit.

Besides, what isn't flamebait here?

[HughMoran]

155. That's idiotic

All you have to do is look at this thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5047493 to see that the Obama people are the frothing idiots who have already driven away many of the Hillary supporters from this board. You've lost your mind and I can't repsect you ever again.

[PVnRT]

166. More intelligent commentary

[HughMoran]

170. I know

I wish there was more of it here :D

[against all enemies]

11. Hillary's actions are worse than her supporters. She drove me away.

Her supporters lame arguments just make me happy that I am no longer on her "side".

[Cha]

51. hilary drove me away in Oct 2002 when

she voted for the Iraqi War Resolution without reading the 90 page NIE..and we knew it was laying the bloody groundwork for her pres run in 2008.

hilary's slide into her current campaigning slime has only proved beyond a reasonable doubt what we knew about hilary all along.

[walldude]

12. I made the same decision last Friday

for basically the same reasons. Doesn't matter that we were "pushed" over though, be prepared to be called every euphemism for insane there is. Oh also be prepared to be "dead" to any Hillary supporters. Once you cross over you are one of "them". You can kinda tell by the vitriol expressed against Olbermann who until he expressed his dislike for Hillary's tactics was considered one of the Democrats biggest Champions. Anyway, Welcome aboard, you are in good company, and try not to hang out in here too long, it gets a bit stressful. :toast:

[apocalypsehow]

14. Exactly right - your post is spot-on. Welcome! K & R.

n/t.

[femmedem]

15. Please let this be a lesson to both Hillary and Obama supporters.

Every word that we post here is public, and we never know who drops in to read.

Just as surely as Clinton's supporters have lost the OP's vote, the hatred and reactionary vitriol here on DU is turning away curious independents or disillusioned Republicans. And not just away from DU, but away from our Party and our candidates.

Sure, it's just an anonymous message board. Nonetheless, we should post as if our mother, our father, our neighbor, hell even our cat is coming here to see what Democrats have to offer. Because you know what? Maybe they are.

Okay, probably not the cat.

[Arkansas Granny]

16. I don't see how you can be reality-based if you form your opinion

about a Presidential candidate on the anonymous comments posted on an internet forum. I might add that you must have DU confused with some other forum if you have not seen any hatred for Hillary or feel that her supporters make up the lion's share of irrationality that has been posted recently.

[The Doctor.]

30. There is no measure of reality just because this is an anonymous board?

It's actually fairly easy to ascertain.

How many Obama supporters have railed at the media for reporting that he's promoted McCain over Clinton?

I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong.

[bain_sidhe]

18. Actually, I've found the Obama supporters to be worse.

I think that's because they "swarm" a thread more than Clinton supporters do. Of course, neither candidate's supporters are covering their candidate with glory by their actions here. I'm kind of at a "pox on both your houses" stage when it comes to the supporters of either candidate. As far as the candidates themselves go, I have made up my mind not to make up my mind. Both candidates have strengths, both candidates have flaws. Either could win the GE, either could lose.

I'll support our nominee. Period.

[The Doctor.]

21. I agree we should, and I will too.

But for now, I'm not interested in psychotic derision, and these last few weeks have shown Clintonites to be unhinged.

[Spiffarino]

28. I'll agree with the "piling on" part

...but as for the level of irrationality, I've been shocked at the stuff coming out recently from HRC's supporters. I suspect it stems from trying to defend some rather indefensible acts, most notably the praise of McCain over Obama. That was impossible for me to overlook and yet many here on DU applauded and defended her for it.

However, she will still get my vote if it comes to that. The courts are far too important to leave in the hands of any Republican, and either Barack or HRC will nominate better judges and have better policies than McCain. No-brainer, really.

[bain_sidhe]

53. defending the indefensible

gotta give you that one. When "your candidate" does something stupid, I think it's better to just say so and move on.

But then, I guess I'm one of those "rational" freaks. I said in another thread that what alarmed me about the Ferrarro thing was that Clinton didn't come down on her with both feet for it. I mean, both candidates have supporters that have made bone-headed moves/statements. But whichever candidate wins the nomination is going to need the other candidates supporters to win the general. Alienating the other candidates supporters is not just wrong, it's STUPID. THAT'S what alarms me.

[The Doctor.]

61. That's dead on the money.

I've already decided I'm not going to let HRC's supporters keep me from voting for the Dem candidate in November, but she's losing bipartisan support by the truckful by engaging in and allowing some of the transparently spiteful tactics. Her supporters are only cementing that loss by blaming the media for reporting her negatives as, ummm... negative.

If they just said, "Damn, she's better than that. I'll write the campaign", or something, it'd be that much easier for Obama supporters to find common ground with HRC people.

Thanks for being thoughtful.

[Abacus]

47. I think that is largely a numbers thing;

Obama supporters seem to outnumber Clinton supporters here by 2:1 or more -- per capita, I think we're about even on assholes but Clinton supporters seem to have a solid lead in the twisted logic department.

[bain_sidhe]

57. Probably

I've spent more time in GD: P today than I have in the last month, so I'm not sure on the breakdown.

And, as far as "twisted logic" - well, I've seen it from both sides today. Can't put numbers to it though, because I haven't read each and every thread. I value my sanity. I just had an opinion on the "issue of the day" so I've been floating around here today.

*edited to banish a rogue smiley*

[doublethink]

19. NIce post, good decision. Peace. n.t.

[AJH032]

22. strange

my case was exactly the opposite. I'd always liked Clinton (had no problem with Obama though), but the despicable hatred coming from Obama supporters (here and elsewhere) towards Clinton was what ultimately made me decide, without any doubt, that I would support Clinton over Obama.

[The Doctor.]

23. Got examples?

You see, what I'm talking about are the little hissy fits Clintonites are throwing because Randi Rhodes called her out for promoting McCain over Obama as 'Commander in Chief'.

That's ridiculous. People should call a spade a spade.

[AJH032]

68. sure

bitch, witch, monster, devil, republican, BUSH...

the list of adjectives goes on.

[The Doctor.]

83. Ummm.... that's YOU saying that. Are you an Obama supporter?

Let's see the links.

[AJH032]

178. here's a gem I came across today

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5068396#5068674

Seriously though, there are countless attacks like this all over DU as well as elsewhere on the internet/media. I can't believe you have not (chosen not?) to see them. They all make me sick.

[Spiffarino]

25. I would love to see what turned you away from Obama

I've been on DU nearly every day for a year and haven't seen anything that rose to the level of banality that I've seen from Clinton supporters. I once posted a pro-Hillary thread and was attacked, but it wasn't brutal and I could generally make sense of the responses. What I get from Clinton people is a lot of "Oh yeah??" with little to back it up.

[Politicalboi]

172. Your right

I just don't get it either. If this were the 2000 election and Gore was ahead of Bush like Obama is ahead of Hillary this board would be screaming that Bush is trying to seat delegates that were not suppose to be seated. And Hillary's remark today about how the MI vote was fair is another mystery to me. It was not a Obama's choice. His name wasn't even on the ballot. They ALL signed a pledge not to count MI and FL and now she wants them seated because she is losing. I never thought I would have dislike toward Hillary but it is she who did it for me. Now if she were doing this to Bush I say bring it on. What comes around goes around.

[Spiffarino]

183. Yeah...I hate to be hypocritical

...but if all this were aimed at the Republican nominee I'd have zero problem with it. I think it would be justified, and poetically so.

My big problem with Hillary Clinton is that she's behaving stupidly. Whether or not it's bad advice she's getting she's not the bloody Queen - or G.W. Bush for that matter - and she doesn't get to blame bad advice for her mistakes. This is America. If you're in charge and you make a mess it's all on you.

She needs to quit this nonsense and start acting like it matters if a Democrat gets elected in November. Her chances for the nomination are slim at best and she's doing herself and the Democratic Party no favors. It's time for her to clean up her campaign and focus on what's good for this country. If she gets the nomination without destroying the Democratic Party then she deserves all the glory for it. But if she wins through guile and treachery, then she deserves only scorn.

[Johnny__Motown]

55. give one example of anything Obama has done that compares to this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZsYWiywdCA&feature=related


We rail against Hillary because she gives us good reason to rail against her

[AJH032]

67. it's NOT Obama himself

who I have a problem with. It's his nasty supporters (no, not all of them are nasty, but there is a sizable chunk) who turned me off.

[The Doctor.]

103. I've been asking where those hateful, irrational posts are.... no one's produced them yet.

I'm sure they're out there, but the one that I've seen (Hillary as Hitler) was denounced immediately by Obamites. The rest of the criticism I've seen of her is heavily justified.

[walldude]

101. Yes but the difference is you made your decision over

what the candidates supporters were doing. I switched because of what the candidate was doing. People can argue all day over who's supporters call the most names, who's supporters lie, etc, but when I saw the 3am ad, and the way she would compliment McCain while bashing Obama made me decide to go with the candidate who respects the party.

[AJH032]

180. you're right, I did

whether that's right or not, I don't know. As I've said many times, both Hillary and Obama are fine by me and I actually see little difference between the two with regards to policy. So, I guess the behavior of a large chunk of Obama supporters sort of drove me away from their candidate. If there's any rationalization, perhaps one could say that who a candidate attracts as his/her supporters is part of who that candidate is (not that Clinton supporters are perfect, but they just haven't turned me off in the same way Obama supporters have).

[Spiffarino]

24. I had a harder time wrapping my head around it than you did.

I thought maybe I was missing some very important information and that - any day now - I would read a pro-Clinton post on DU that would make enough sense to me that I might consider supporting Clinton over Edwards, Kucinich or Obama.

It was the Post That Never Came.

Sure there were a few that were interesting but none were compelling. And now that the field has narrowed to two, the level of discourse from too many Clinton supporters has ranged from childish to scolding to batshit insane. I've seen too many attacks on Obama that are easily debunked, others that are obvious distortions, and some that are outright fabrications.

That the Clinton campaign itself devolved into an attack machine was bad enough, but now her surrogates and rank-and-file supporters are pushing me away. I've gone from once admiring Hillary Clinton to where I can barely stand to look at her.

However, all the acrimony stirred up by the Clintons' win-at-all-costs strategy has inspired me to take a long and dispassionate look at the Bill Clinton Administration. I recall it gave us NAFTA, welfare reform; the rich continuing to get richer; a widening income gap; a great friend of big business; and a triangulation strategy that helped put a Republican majority in the House for the first time in several decades.

So screw "experience" if what we can expect is more of the same. I'd rather err on the side of idealism and promise than play it safe and vote for the continuation of the long, downward spiral into feudalism.

[DerekJ]

49. I couldn't have said it better than you and the OP. N/T

[sybylla]

140. Spiffarino, I've been down the exact same path as you

I started by waiting for that post that never came to reviling a candidate (Clinton) I used to admire and ended up at the "screw 'experience'" moment.

I guess there are more of us than one thinks. Thank you for saying it so well.

[zulchzulu]

26. For some, the idea of "ownership" to a political candidate can be blinding

I really liked your assessment of the situation. K&R...

What's troubling about how people will take a side, say a political candidate, and just hold on with support even if it actually would go against the very notions of political discourse they admire. There are many reasons why I find it obviously beyond reckoning to support Hillary Clinton in the primary season.

Two major benchmarks of absolutely hitting the low road are frankly inexcusable and indefensible.

When Obama's kindergarten paper where he possibly wanted to be President was made an issue before the Iowa caucus, it was mentioned by very knowledgeable political historians that to use such a ruse was indeed unprecedented in American politics. Many scratched their heads just wondering why or how this could possibly be an issue and one posted on the Hillary Clinton web site, spoken about in rallies and sent in emails.

Many more scuttles slurped up from the ooze after that, but the repeated disingenuous and false statements by Hillary Clinton essentially endorsing the Democratic opposition and Republican candidate John McCain over her own wily, winning black opponent (who her campaigned darked his face in an attack ad) were indeed the most revealing of just how low Hillary Clinton will go.

She knows her candidacy is sinking slowly in the mud she has thrown at Obama and only sees that her vision for America now is...herself.

For those that STILL support her without question and demand nobody dare question her, their cries of "sexist", "hater", "poor me" and other sad excuses fall in the category of desperation moans in the Final Act.

[BlackVelvet04]

29. Bullshit...........n/t

[The Doctor.]

31. There's an invitation in the OP for you to bring some substance...

But you chose to bring "bullshit".

(If you haven't figured it out yet, there are actually a couple of Clintonites that aren't acting like shitheads here.)

[BlackVelvet04]

33. Like I said....

bullshit.

[The Doctor.]

39. Thanks for helping prove my point.

[frylock]

141. well stated..

you've proven the OPs point -- twice.

[bigbrother05]

32. Detached from reality pretty much sums it up

Welcome aboard, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

[thevoiceofreason]

35. Welcome

I too decided to back Obama after reading his positions on the issues. Do you realize Hillary copied most of her energy position from his much-earlier announced stances?

[AZBlue]

37. yeah, reality wins out every time for me too

[FlyingSquirrel]

38. I believe you're a newly converted Obama supporter because....

you misspelled Barack.

:hi:

Good post.

[The Doctor.]

41. Ooops.

I have to assume that the reason Clinton has gone off the wall is because for years she presumed herself the '08 nominee, and then along comes a guy riding a huge grassroots movement that she mortally underestimated. She's basically been 'robbed' from her PoV.

I'll still support her if she's the nominee, but the Democratic party will be doing itself no favors if they ignore Barack Obama's support and name her the candidate. I'm really beginning to believe that the GOTV will be explosive if Obama's The One.

Dude... he's like a Keanu Reeves.

[Catherine Vincent]

40. Yawn!

:boring:

[The Doctor.]

42. Yep, that's just the sort of thoughtful and patient commentary that put me where I am.

Thanks for playing along.

[NoPasaran]

43. Well, then I guess there's nothing left to lose

In my suggesting you sit on something sharp

[Scurrilous]

44. K & R

:thumbsup:

[SaveAmerica]

45. How did Eggplant vote on the Kyle/Lieberman act? How divisive is he?

He must be somewhere between Gravel and Kucinich on the progressometer, they never talk about him on the news!!

[WilliamPitt]

48. Apologies

I suck.

[SaveAmerica]

52. Kumbaya, my lord, kumbaya, 8 more months, lord, Kumbaya

I'm trying to lighten the combustible atmosphere of a web-page that I LOVE and miss.

[Hoof Hearted]

54. Check the Dr.'s journal, before you get too outraged.

It's in there.

[SaveAmerica]

56. Thank you, I was actually sitting here waiting for it. I'm much too tender

hearted for politics but I refuse to give up on DU because of some of the responses I've been given. I appreciate your apology very much.

[WilliamPitt]

74. "...but I refuse to give up on DU because of some of the responses I've been given..."

I know exactly what you mean.

:hug:

Thank you. I don't deserve as excellent a response as yours. I marvel at your ability to keep your cork from popping. An admirable quality, and, alas, a demonstrably rare quality in this bewildering little asylum.

Selah.

:toast:

Apologies once again.

P.S. I'll probably be apologizing to you six or seven more times over the next few days, just randomly in some thread or another if we should cross paths. When it gets annoying, well, I'll have to apologize for that, too, so it's a vicious circle to be sure. But yours was, simply put, one of the most warmhearted-out-of-nowhere posts I've seen in my six years of being here.

So, yeah, just wanted to warn you. Sorry.

:)

:hug:

[The Doctor.]

59. Uhh... fer what?

(Or is it better we don't know?)

[Jansen]

121. Eggplant?

Uh, wtf.

[WilliamPitt]

46. The clearly-expressed opinion of a made-up mind

Beauty.

:toast:

[Hoof Hearted]

50. Oh like hell you were ever "on the fence." I was the Queen of Sheba last week too.

What other gems do you have for us?

[The Doctor.]

58. Your majesty!

Keep proving my point guys... or do you have some reason to believe that?

Of course you don't. I understand how much easier it is to assume what you would like rather than believe what you don't want to hear.

Actually, no, I don't understand... I live in reality.

The truth is that I was fine with either candidate, and only a couple of weeks ago I started thinking that Obama would indeed bring more democrats to office in the GE.

Hillary went over the line, and her supporters can't acknowledge it. That's not right.

[Beacool]

60. Vote for whoever you want, what's the problem?

I will never vote for Obama even if he was the only person on the ballot. To each his own.........


:shrug:

[The Doctor.]

62. That's just plain spiteful. I will vote for Hillary if she's the nominee.

You will vote for McCain if Obama is the nominee. That's remarkably immature.

And yes, not voting for the Dem candidate is voting for McCain.

[CreekDog]

63. That's because all the sane Hillary supporters

are Obama supporters. :hide:

[metalluk]

65. O,K,, let's see what we have here

You're going to base your vote on who's to be the next president of the world's most powerful country on the rantings of a bunch of idiots who post on an obscure message board. Good call!

[Swamp Rat]

66. Way'at Dr_e!

:hi:

[TexasLady]

69. Ya Backed the Right Horse

I kept watching debates, and I just like calmness in a person. Slow to anger got my vote. Actually I liked both of their stances on the issues, but demeanor won me over to Obama.
UNLIKE CRAZY HOT HEAD MCCAIN, btw~!

[LittleClarkie]

70. They did that early on for me with all the inevitability talk

It was like dealing with the borg.

I will not be assimilated... resistance is not futile.

It took a while for me to actually decide on a candidate though. I'm still a Kerrycrat at heart, so when he went out on a limb and endorsed Obama, I figured I'd better get out there with him.

I'm reading "The Audacity of Hope" right now. I just hope he walks the talk, because I do rather like the way he talks.

[Oilwellian]

73. Great post Dr. E

The Clintons have bamboozled the good people of this country and it's still hard for many to accept. The times, they are a changin' though. I feel more invigorated and hopeful where Obama's concerned and have always thought Republicans vote their fears, Democrats vote their dreams. It makes the decision easy. :D

[Perry Logan]

78. You're only 180 degrees wrong. Here's a selected bibliography of Obamite slime at DU...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4746049&mesg_id=4746049

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4774225&mesg_id=4774225

Pointed out:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4779500&mesg_id=4779500

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4849238&mesg_id=4849238

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4922044&mesg_id=4922044

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4942967&mesg_id=4942967

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4964704&mesg_id=4964704

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4965088

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4965227

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4982708&mesg_id=4982708

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5036756

Reporting threats against Hillary:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4999545&mesg_id=4999545

[The Doctor.]

82. Pathetic.

I just clicked on the first link, and it's not an example of an Obamite being rude, it's a poster claiming that Obamites are rude without linking to an example.

If that's the kind of cheap, transparent, bullshit Clinton supporters have to fall back on, then you've just helped cement my certainty.

Please tell me that was a joke.

Ok, I just reviewed all of them.

Ummm, dude, that's WEAK.

8 of them are Clinton supporters claiming that Obama supporters are rude... without linking to a single example. (Read the OP here, and you'll see that's exactly what I find idiotic from Hillary's people)

1 of them is apparently an Obama supporter urging good behavior. Again, no specific examples.

1 is someone asking if it looks like Hillary is saluting like Hitler. Wow, you found a tasteless idiot on DU! And only 116,000 posters to find one amongst! Pay attention; Obama people disowned the idiot immediately. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4774225&mesg_id=4775671

1 is about the tasteless email that an Obama supporter (called 'advisor') sent out. He stepped down immediately after.

1 is blank.

Like I said, 'weak'.

Now, are you saying that Hillary hasn't done anything that deserves bashing? You see, both candidates have had surrogates 'err'. The differences are that Hillary and her surrogates went way over the line and her supporters go batshit crazy when people point it out. That's not living in reality.

Like I said; "I’m starkly reminded of Bush supporters declaring that ‘Liberals have an ‘irrational’ hatred of Bush, where a simple Q+A, a little fact finding, or just paying attention to what Liberals are saying would prove that hatred of Bush is rational.

Well, I haven’t seen any real “Hatred” of Clinton here. I’m sure it’s about, but most people don’t ‘hate’ her, they’re just pissed off at her actions."

Here in reality, Clinton has been far more divisive and dirty than Obama. It would serve both her and her supporters well to recognize that.

[frylock]

145. that was beautiful..

keep up the good work!

[Kahuna]

79. I just gave you the 47th recommend. Great post. nt

[newcriminal]

86. I rarely post on DU,

I'm more of a lurker. I felt I had to respond to this post tho. I come here daily and have to believe your nothing more than an Obama supporter once again posting as if you were undecided. The most vial and definitely the majority of irrational posts here are coming from Obama supporters. I support Hillary and find it difficult to read all the nasty irrational Obama supporters here. They won't drive me away, but they do disgust me.

[The Doctor.]

100. Muhh.... yeah. Thanks for proving my point.

Meanwhile, would you like to show me just where I'm being 'irrational'?

If you were more of a poster than a lurker, you could look up my posts and find out that you're wrong. I've only been leaning Obama for a couple weeks now. I was a Kucinich then an Edwards guy. After that I didn't care until recently.

But, as if to prove my point, you're a Hillary supporter who will believe what you want without the benefit of insight or research... or spellcheck.

Thanks again!

:hi:

[newcriminal]

111. What was said was the posts were irrational. If you wish to pick up that garb, go right ahead.

Now as to the vileness (is that spelled right?), your ignorant assertion that I am one who "will believe what you want without the benefit of insight or research", obviously stated with no basis other than insult, has qualified you for that term as well.

Enjoy your new companions. You'll get along famously.

[The Doctor.]

112. LOL...

For you to assert that I was "always an Obama supporter" proves you did no research on my position. That wasn't an insult, it was an observation.

Lemme guess... You've never researched Obama's plans.

I don't mind if someone is ignorant, so long as they're willing to listen and learn. I expect of others what I expect of myself I suppose. Now, do you have anything enlightened to say, or are you going to ignorantly hold on to that notion that I was 'always an Obama supporter'?

That has as much merit as my saying that you've always been a freeper... doesn't it?

[newcriminal]

116. My goodness, I never researched Dr_olditch's posts. Doesn't that make me an ignorant fool.

Listen you supercilious masquerade of a thought. Let's be perfectly clear. This - gratefully - brief exchange has only underscored the point of the post.

The Obama posts here, in which you are now willingly awash, have degenerated into personal attacks, snide insults (uniformly unfunny) and pointless exchanges. Enjoy your tugjobs. I'm out to register two more voters.

[The Doctor.]

120. You're the one doing the name-calling, not me.

You made an baseless claim out of ignorance. No idea who I am, yet you seem to be some kind of mind-reader?

Now, go through the posts and look at with whom the 'personal attacks, snide insults, and pointless exchanges' originated.

Here's a hint; it was with people like you who decided they had to, umm... attack me personally.

You were ignorant for doing so. You should think on that.

[Alter Ego]

90. Welcome to the Choom Gang, buddy.

And get yourself some anti-Hillaryis44 armor...you'll need it from this crowd.

[yardwork]

96. I've seen incredibly bad behavior from "supporters" of both Hillary and Obama.

Some of the worst have been tombstoned.

For a long time I supported Hillary partly because of the things that some Obama supporters were posting here. Lately, I agree, most of the worst is coming from Hillary's "supporters," but I expect that's because some of the Obama "supporters" are feeling more confident or maybe they're on vacation or something. I expect the tide to turn again, and so it will go.

The crap is coming from both sides, and neither Obama nor Hillary can control what anonymous posters say on the internet. Even polite people sometimes get carried away while posting. Some people post while under the influence of various substances, including hubris and rage.

If it isn't fun and relaxing to come here and read and/or post, don't do it. It's just a bulletin board. I can find interesting anduseful info here, but I don't expect to change anybody's mind and I never pretend that anybody here is my friend unless I've met them in person and know them well outside these cyberwalls. Sure, I have favorite DUers - folks whose posts or graphics I know and appreciate. I enjoy the "shout out" to like-minded posters. But we don't really know one another unless we've met and interacted in the real world. Likewise, nothing posted here necessarily reflects the official campaign position of any candidate.

[The Doctor.]

102. Basically true, but I'm not talking so much about the sniping and name calling

as I am the detachment from reality.

Hillary supporters have all kinds of fingers in their ears lately.

[natrat]

97. everything about HRC smells like fraud

[futureliveshere]

115. good to hear

nice work Dr. though this would not be my preferred metric since I would rather go with my assessment of the candidates effectiveness, judgement and positions, I welcome you into the Obama supporters group.

[BornBlue]

117. Dr. Eldritch, you are my hero

This is so eloquently written, it expresses everything I have been feeling for the past few weeks. I have been an Obama supporter since the get go(I am from IL, and voted for him for the Senate). I don't hate Hillary, but her downright ugly tactics have made it very hard for me to keep that opinion. I hope more undecideds will wake up to how she is hurting the party, and join Barack's side.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

118. Welcome to a not so exclusive club!

[paulk]

119. are we on the same board?

I don't see how anyone - could objectively say that-

"Meanwhile, I’ve found the lion’s share of irrationality is demonstrably coming from the Hillary people."

This place has been hate Hillary central for a solid year now. On any given day the number of negative Hillary threads outnumbers the negative Obama threads by three or four to one. Actually, that's a conservative estimate since I have most of the worst offenders on ignore....

------------------

[The Doctor.]

122. The key word is "irrationality".

It's irrational to claim anyone "hates" Hillary because they attack her for her horrible actions.

It's irrational to announce that you will 'no longer listen to Air America or Keith Olbermann' because they dared criticize Clinton's horrible actions.


Now, if Hillary didn't support the Republican nominee over a fellow Democrat, then perhaps the 'negative Hillary threads' would be more even.

Dontcha' think?

She fucked up harder than Obama, so she gets more deserved criticism. There you have it.

[paulk]

146. like Krugman and Wilson didn't get the same treatment from

the Obama crowd?

Not to mention McGovern, Robert Kennedy Jr, and a host of others?


I think your claim of "sitting on the fence" is bogus.

-------------

[think4yourself]

124. This was a great opportunity

This was a well-written olive branch seeking intelligent discussion. The last few months have been pretty fierce around here. Dr Eldritch was seeking intelligent discourse and it just proved his point. I wish we could calmly LISTEN to one another. But I'm just an optimist :(

[D23MIURG23]

127. who is eggplant?

[The Doctor.]

129. I had been avoiding the fray, turned off by the vile tone DU had taken...

So out of rejection of all the proffered candidates, I chose facetiously to support the first vegetable that came to mind...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4134651

[Tab]

149. "First vegetable"?? Eggplant is a derogatory term for blacks

Because of the black skin for both that vegetable and the only candidate you're referring to.

And then you link to something that says you're voting Republican?

Are you sure this is the proper website for you?

[The Doctor.]

156. Only shitheads use it as a derogatory term for blacks.

I use it as a term for a 'veg-e-ta-ble'... which is violet btw, not black.

And yes, I'm still registered as a Republican, so I voted for Ron Paul. Happy?

[Tab]

163. Right. Interesting choice of terms. Whatever.

n/t

[The Doctor.]

186. Glad to see you agree.

[Tab]

194. That *might* be sarcasm...

and I won't push this subthread any further, but I will say that if you know it's derogatory and used it anyway, given the choice of a zillion other items, it's poor judgment at a minimum. If you want to get a point across, it's best to do it in a way that doesn't offend.

Nevertheless, I'm off this thread. I have a weekend ahead of me.

[The Doctor.]

195. Let me show you something... let's see if you can think it through...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5065565&mesg_id=5065565


Think that over for a bit, maybe it'll sink in.

Meanwhile, enjoy your weekend.

:toast:

[GoneOffShore]

174. Eggplant is American for aubergine

The color - a deep purple
The vegetable -
From Wikipedia
"The eggplant (or Brinjal) is an important food crop grown for its large, pendulous purple or white fruit. It has been cultivated in southern and eastern Asia since prehistory but appears to have become known to the Western world no earlier than ca. 1500 CE. The first known written record of the eggplant is found in Qí mín yào shù, an ancient Chinese agricultural treatise completed in 544 CE.<1> The numerous Arabic and North African names for it, along with the lack of ancient Greek and Roman names, indicate that it was introduced throughout the Mediterranean area by the Arabs in the early Middle Ages. The scientific name Solanum melongena is derived from a 16th century Arabic term for one kind of eggplant."

[The Doctor.]

187. The more you know.

:)




The sooner we take the words back, the sooner we can share recipes without being considered 'racists' or 'cannibals'.

[Unbowed]

130. Excellent post. Thank you!

Finally someone has posted a perfect assessment of the situation here.

And yes, you will see an "Obama supporters helped me make up my mind thread" in short time. I've got my suspicions who it will come from too.

:kick:

[AGirl]

139. I knew who you were going to endorse before I even clicked on this thread.

[proReality]

144. Republican Hillary people?!

I swear that some of the Hillary backers are Limbaugh's Army of right-wing nuts, here to stir things up and divide. I've never seen a true DUer act the way a lot of the newer people do. Very odd that all this contention has begun here of all places.

[BlueJac]

147. Thanks for getting on the Obama train........

A very nice article.

[zazzle]

148. Obama FINALLY releases his 2006 earmarks!

He had already released the 2007 earmarks - but had held back on 2006.
Read it and understand why he didn't release them sooner in the primary.


http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/3/13/20101/1807

Oblahma is a con.

[zazzle]

150. Obama FINALLY releases his 2006 earmarks!

He had already released the 2007 earmarks - but had held back on the 2006.
Read it and understand why they weren't released until LATE in the primary....

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/3/13/20101/1807

[bonito]

151. I don't hate Hillary

Or any one else for that matter, its just what has transpired over these last eight years and the calls from Lieberman and the likes for more WAR and Clinton represents those powers namely aipaic and the greedy war profiteers of which Chaney represents,not only has our foreign policy been hijacked but the truth and the lives of thousands not to mention our economy as well.
I feel Clinton or McCain will continue in this insanity, still I can't believe that they are the Chosen ones for the respective parties.

[HughMoran]

153. "ranting, frothing, detached-from-reality sycophants" - this is the definition of an Obama supporter

Too bad you had to post such an idiotic post - I'll never respect you again.

[onehandle]

154. As uncommitted to either, I can tell you that you are totally wrong.

There is a lot of nastiness here at Free Repub... I mean Democratic Underground, but it's the Obama supporters who are the worst.

They are overly aggressive and highly insulting. I like Obama and I think he is way better than his ruthless and classless supporters here.

Nastiness on both sides, but one side is Far, far worse. Neither candidate is perfect, but one side thinks their candidate is, and that is irrational.

And the Clintons have been Hated here by many for many many years. The current crisis has given many an excuse to exercise their hate.


Oh, and picking a candidate based on their supporters' actions? That's irrational too.

[HughMoran]

157. Excellent post

You've said exactly what I was thinking when I read the O/P. How can anybody be so irrational as to make up their mind based on another's suporters? How can he not know that most Hillary supporters have run screaming from this place after being attacked unmercifully by Obama supporters. Need proof? see here -> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5047493

This thread is one of the most deceptive posts I've seen on DU in a long time. I hate liars.

[The Doctor.]

162. Again, a link to people talking about 'hatred' with no ACTUAL examples of it.

Can you believe all the anti-Obama hatred around here?

-See... there's an example of all the hatred directed at Obama. :eyes:

Can't people live in reality?

[HughMoran]

164. You apparently can't

There are literally thousands of hateful attacks on Hillary supporters - just in the last week alone.

But I'm sure you now have the blindness that prevents you from seeing this - oh, well - I used to think you were an intelligent poster - now I'll never be able to forget this thread when I read your posts. What a shame :(

[The Doctor.]

192. She has received well-deserved criticism. When I ask for examples to the contrary, you come up empty

You only call it blindness because you apparently refuse to see that the majority of criticism levelled at her is rational.

Maybe it should tell you something that you can't find examples of irrational hatred? Oh, I'm sure they're out there, but all of the ones I've seen have been stomped on by legit Obama supporters.

If you decide to dislike me for being rational beyond your ability to prove otherwise, please understand that I really don't give a fuck. ;)
Meanwhile, I will continue on as an 'intelligent' poster who, like everyone, makes mistakes, and I will do so without concern for the ignorant and spiteful. Do you really want to be that childish? Oh well, as I said;

"I didn’t come to DU to make friends, though I have. I’m not here to be part of a popularity contest, or even guard my reputation from signs of bias to ensure that if I have something important to say, no one would ignore it because it came from me. Nope, never really cared about that. "

Cheers.

[The Doctor.]

160. I have not, in fact "picked a candidate based on their supporter's actions"

I have based my decision on Clinton's actions and the subsequent irrational responses of her supporters.

Speaking of which, have you yet acknowledged the unmatched scurrilous behavior of the Clinton campaign?

So you have examples of "Obama supporters who are the worst"?

You see, that's the irrationality of the people I'm talking about. When I could easily have been held on the fence or even convinced to come over by thoughtful Clintonites, they had nothing but freakish derision. The actions of a candidates supporters can tell you about the strength of the candidate.

You should know that the place gets like this during primaries, so it's silly to compare it to FR. If you have some examples of Obama supporters being shitheads without cause or getting disowned, let's see them. Meanwhile, the point I've made is that Obama supporters are criticising Hillary where she deserves it, Clinton supporters are utterly blind to her nastiness, and they've failed miserably to be rational about it. So far, no one has shown otherwise.

Do you have anything?

[onehandle]

168. It's against DU's rules to call out specific members.

"Do not post messages with the purpose of "calling out" another member or picking a fight with another member."

Flamebait like your original post is along the same lines in my opinion.

There's a lot of stupidity and hardball around the Clinton campaign. And I hope we have a nominee sooner rather than later.

The best thing that has come out of this silly season is the confirmation that DU has absolutely nothing to do with the real world.

If I thought that the Democratic party cared about the opinions of DU, I'd stop caring about the political process all together.

[The Doctor.]

191. Thanks for proving you aren't rational. That you have to outright lie is sad.

I didn't 'call out' or 'pick a fight' with any member.

I expressed a very legitimate and demonstrable contention, and even invited thoughtful Clintonites to comment.

That you have to mischaracterize both my positions and my motives tells me you're more interested in contention than in discussion. Aside from primary season, DU is very balanced. It's the partisan sycophants that drive it off the road, and no reasonable person could suggest I fit into that category.

Do you fit in that category?

[ampad]

158. Thank you

This is a great post.:kick:

[HuffleClaw]

167. seems to me it would make more sense to let the CANDIDATE's actions or lack thereof...

...be the deciding factor in one's choice.

[The Doctor.]

190. I learned my lesson from Bush.

I do not want another person in the WH with a huge contingent of oblivious 'she can do no wrong' sycophants.

[Imalittleteapot]

169. It was Clinton herself, not her supporters,

that helped me make up my mind, and for the very reasons you cited.

[psychmommy]

175. i have crossed the line a couple of times.

not calling names but being real snarky. i will try to behave in the future.

[jillan]

179. That's okay - it was the Obama supporters that helped me make up my mind.

[The Doctor.]

196. Very good. How'd they do so?

[Swamp Rat]

197. Well, they didn't post vile, racist shit from right wing websites about black preachers.

That moves me a little closer to the Obama camp. Can't say the same for Hillary Clinton though.

Too bad her campaign has been ruined by Karl Rove clone Mark Penn, while at the same time some of her supporters have become really nasty, down right racist in their commentary.

However, they still have a choice, a limited window of opportunity. They could instead use their energy to go after repuke candidates and fundie preachers.

[The Doctor.]

198. Check this thread out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5084233&mesg_id=5084233

I asked a serious question; "Is Wright right?"

So far, no one has been able to come up with anything the man's said that's wrong, 'cept for the way he's said it.

[barack the house]

181. Rest assured I've heard them on the radio too and they have switched off from Randi Rhodes too.

It would be fine but to aquire a vote I don't think it is their best policy to chase people away. I do hope they keep supporting liberal radio it is more important thanany candidate. Support this station folks they trytheir darndest to be unbiased overall. headonradio.com and noava m radio

[barack the house]

182. Welcome o team Obama. Watch out for flying garbage disposal units..

[Alamom]

199. Did you skip your primary due to fence sitting ?

If you're still in Boston.....

Just asking due to the last "couple of days" thing.