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Who have the antiwar lefties betrayed besides Dems?

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Paragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 08:54 PM
Original message
Who have the antiwar lefties betrayed besides Dems?
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 08:55 PM by Paragon
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. Corporations
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truhavoc Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. Damn I was in flame mode too!
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. Anti-war lefties have not betrayed anyone
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 08:58 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
Anti-democratic party lefties who have a better plan for getting rid of Bush should let us all in on their secret, however, so we can all begin taking notes.

Oh and nevermind telling Nader voters from 02 that we might very well NOT BE IN FUCKING IRAQ were it not for Florida...their crystal ball claims we would.
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DisgustiPatriotiated Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Anti-war lefties are willing to betray many in 2004
They are willing to betray the entire Democratic base, the poor, the needy, the disabled, the homeless, all of that and more, in 2004.

We would not be in Iraq had it not been for Florida 2000. Whaddya mean 2002? I'm convinced 911 would not have happened had Gore been our president. Therfore Iraq would not have happened ....
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I think categorizing all anti-war people to the left as the enemy is wrong
and yes, I had a typo in my post.

I am to the left and I was anti-war and I am not betraying anyone.

The people who were anti-war are correct. The only disagreement I have with them is whether voting for a specific resolution would have altered the outcome.
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DisgustiPatriotiated Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Well now you have confused me
I wasn't trying to catch you on a typo, and now I'm not even sure what it was.

I was against the war too.

Now I don't know what your original post said, but we are in total agreement now. :D
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zoeyfong Donating Member (508 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
31. Right, nothing is the dems' fault, it's all nader's fault. NOT.
It's not the dems fault that they have been trying to be republicans for 10 years and keep losing; it's not the dems' fault that the majority of dems in congress *supported* the iraq war - it's Nader's fault Bush is prez and we're in iraq!!!!!! Well guess what? Dems better get an f-ing clue and figure out how to win and/or stand up for democratic principles, or somebody else will. The nader bashing is really embarrassing and is yet more evidence the the dem party is totally unworthy of anyone's respect or vote. How do you expect anyone to vote for a party that is known for whining and blaming more than anything else?
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DisgustiPatriotiated Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. Dems did not ask to go to war
you are blowing that waaaaay out of proportion.

And if it were not for Nader, we wouldn't BE in Iraq! Gore would not have started this war.

Don't vote for the Dems. Here's what I think about that. Go find another Party to vote for.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x479720
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zoeyfong Donating Member (508 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #36
79. Oh, yawn. When asked, dems said YES. I suppose they're not
responsible for *their votes* since the war was bush's idea. God help the democratic party if its strategy for success is hoping, praying, and demanding that all 3rd party candidates drop out so dems will get their votes.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #9
41. Then you should really blame all of those
registered Democrats who voted for Bush. Gore didn't lose in 2000, there was a coup. The coup would have happened whether Nader was in the race or not. I think it is silly to lump all of this blame on Nader when the real issue is that this government was stolen in 2000 - but, hey, it's easier to demonize a marginal character like Nader than to face the facts.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. that's better, many anti war people are democrats
but there seems to be a minority that think only they are anti war and that anyone who supports the democratic party are not left wing, or not anti war. so they make demands like "what will you do for me or people like us who are liberals or lefties or anti war" ?
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
73. Here's a better plan
Moderator this is open source.

Delivering the NO
to Bush and All That He Stands For
by Mary Lou Greenberg

Revolutionary Worker #1233, March 21, 2004, posted at rwor.org

The aggression, ruthlessness and deceit of the last years have been shocking.

Those forces who now run the U.S. government are carrying out a massive global offensive that literally and openly intends to dominate our world.

They openly say they intend to use military power to transform whole regions of the world--starting with the highly strategic Persian Gulf. They have invaded and conquered two countries--first Afghanistan and then Iraq. They threaten half a dozen more countries, and send their commandos to attack in many more. They insist they have the right to launch pre-emptive war and topple hostile governments at will.

Within the "homeland," they have unleashed new armies of police spies and wiretappers, They have fired up their fundamentalist "cultural wars"--demanding permanent bans on gay marriage and sending feds to study abortion records. They have promoted ugly religious dogmas as "traditional values" to be imposed on everyone. They have rounded up immigrants, militarized borders, threatened dissidents, and denied lawyers to government captives.

They have celebrated raw wealth, capitalism and deepening exploitation--all while mocking, ignoring and blaming the poor.

And isn't it obvious? That all this is just the beginning for them!

They intend to press ahead, on many levels and battlefields, claiming the world's people and future for themselves. They intend to permanently entrench their policies and cadre in decisive power centers within the U.S. They literally intend to transform the culture, rewrite the most basic legal norms and rights, create a permanent political alignment that defines American politics for generations.

They are serious, in power, and backed by large chunks of the American power structure and ruling class.

They have claimed the 9/11 attacks as their source of legitimacy--all of this is done in the name of the War on Terrorism. But 2004 is an election year--and they have a new goal: They want a mandate for their agenda. This means they want to claim that all this has been embraced and approved by the people themselves.

NO! This must not go down! This cannot be allowed!

Here in the U.S., there must be a clear, powerful, unmistakable repudiation of everything represented by the Bush clique and their agenda.

It is up to the people to deny--to them, their agenda, and the powerful forces they serve--any right to claim they are acting and speaking for the people of the United States. It is up to the people to challenge their offensive, undermine their support, and prepare conditions to bring about a radically different future.

Everyone who yearns for a different course, a different future, a whole new way of relating to the people of the world and to each other needs to be involved.

When this year, and its election circus, is over: It must be unmistakable that millions in the U.S. utterly reject the agenda of war and repression. So that none of this can be conducted, justified or concealed in the name of the people.

And when it is over, a powerful, determined, deeply rooted movement of resistance must be firmly on the political stage --acting as a growing obstacle to all this.

The vision of more than a million people in the streets of New York this summer at the Republican Convention saying "NO" to Bush and all he represents-- expressed in the call from Not In Our Name--needs to become a reality.

We know many people and political forces share such visions. The Republican National Convention has already emerged as a major focus. And it is urgent to press ahead together with the urgent political work and with a common clear-sighted grasp of what we are trying to accomplish.

The question before us is: HOW will this be done?

Where do we mobilize our forces in the months ahead?

How do we reach and stir millions?

What do we take as our goals for the coming struggle?

****

Last year at this time millions of people were living and breathing resistance to the war on Iraq. People showed their anger and disgust at the failure of Democratic politicians who signed on to the war-- offering only petty amendments of the carnage-to-come.

There were bold, independent political actions of the people--massive marches, school walkouts, teach-ins and direct action disruptions, a powerful Statement of Conscience by artists and intellectuals. All this sent a message to the world that the U.S. government aggression was bitterly opposed by millions within the U.S.

It gave heart and hope to resistance launched by people all over the world. And, although it did not stop the war, the warmakers could not claim they had a mandate for that war.

Now in 2004, great new potential can be seen in the way the political establishment worries over "the hate factor"--the fact that millions so deeply despise Bush and all he represents. Today, millions sense that the whole course of history is at stake and that irreparable harm may result if the juggernaut of war and repression isn't stopped. And they're right.

But, even within the ranks of the antiwar movement, people are being told that throwing their energies into "anybody but Bush" is the only way to change the direction of the country.

This is such a trap!

It is really crucial for people to understand that the mandate for this horrendous agenda cannot be challenged if people put their energies into the electoral arena.

This may seem counterintuitive, but it is reality.

Our understanding of this stems from a deep revolutionary analysis of the role of elections in maintaining this exploitative and oppressive capitalist society--and an analysis of history and how in fact things change.

We know that millions of people who do not share this view are going to vote for the Democrats-- including people who know that the Democrats aren't going to do shit to change things.

But it is crucial for us to unite in doing what will make a difference--that is millions of people uniting and manifesting their opposition and deep hatred for the whole direction of things in a massive outpouring of opposition to this whole agenda--one that cannot be ignored, covered up, or denied.

****

Already the election process has revealed that it is not a path to challenging the Bush agenda.

Great efforts have been made by the power structure to prevent this election season from becoming a way of challenging the war in Iraq or the larger global offensive of the U.S. And at the same time, this whole 2004 election is being engineered to give a mandate to the so-called "War on Terrorism"-- without allowing any real debate over it.

With each passing month, the official electoral arena has become more and more tightly controlled, and the allowable range of debate has shrunk. Official assumptions about security, anti-terrorism, the danger of non-proliferation, the need for preemption, and so on are simply not supposed to be questioned.

For a few months, with Howard Dean in the race, some people thought they had a way to voice some antiwar sentiments within the election--but now that's over, and everyone is told to back John Kerry, a man who voted for launching the Iraq War, voted for the Patriot Act, and upholds Bush's plans to occupy and forcefully subdue Iraq.*

And this whole process is a living example of the profound reality described by Bob Avakian, in Democracy: Can't We Do Better Than That?--where he sums up: "To state it in a single sentence, elections: are controlled by the bourgeoisie; are not the means through which basic decisions are made in any case; and are really for the primary purpose of legitimizing the system and the policies and actions of the ruling class, giving them the mantle of a "popular mandate," and of channeling, confining, and controlling the political activity of the masses of people."

This understanding leads us to the conclusion that we need a whole different social system and political process.

But whether or not you share these revolutionary conclusions, it is crucial to see that no profound opposition to the Bush agenda can be manifested through the electoral arena.

****

It is also important to recognize that this "Bush Agenda" of international aggression and domestic repression currently has a consensus within the ruling class in the U.S. One proof of that ruling class consensus is that the Democratic Party establishment so quickly jelled around a candidate who supports the occupation of Iraq and the larger U.S. offensive. They knew (and said) that anyone who didn't embrace the heart of the Bush agenda would simply be declared "unelectable"--meaning unacceptable to their class.

Why is there such a consensus?

First, because the rulers of the U.S. think this is "their time" and no one can stand in their way. And they want to grab for a permanent dominant global position. The U.S. ruling class is a criminal bunch of expansionist, profit-hungry empire-builders and they have put a ruthless clique of liars and killers at the helm.

Second, three years into this "war on terrorism," the U.S. powerstructure is now deeply invested in Bush's global offensive. They have already risked a lot on this. Now (by their imperialist logic and class interests) they are all required not to "back down." They see if they "backed down" from such an aggressive grab for dominance, their ambitions would suffer a massive cost--politically, militarily and economically.

So it is not at all realistic to think people can all just wander into voting booths, as a groundswell of atomized "voters," pull the levers for those rigged choices we are offered, and then **poof** this entrenched agenda will get pushed aside.

****

In this light, it is worth looking at some "critical" elections of the Vietnam era--and what really served as an obstacle to that war.

In 1964 arch-conservative Barry Goldwater bragged he'd bomb Vietnam back to the stone age and Lyndon Johnson portrayed himself as a more moderate candidate. Johnson was elected based on many antiwar sentiments, but he immediately implemented Goldwater's plan--launching a full invasion of South Vietnam only months after election day. Voting the liberal Democrat in did not prevent the imperialist invasion.

Then In both 1968 and 1972, Richard Nixon was the more hardline rightwing candidate--but he also became the President forced to withdraw U.S. troops and personnel out of South Vietnam. That wasn't because he had a change of heart --he had to back down. The powerful Vietnamese resistance was defeating the massive U.S. invasion. And the massive antiwar movement within the U.S. and within the U.S. armed forces, helped prevent even more massive escalations. The antiwar movement helped weaken the war-makers by creating a climate of resistance -- and denying the government popular support for new escalations.

The U.S. political establishment (including both Johnson Democrats and Nixon Republicans) were always determined to win that war in Vietnam. They had great prestige and strategic power at stake. But ultimately, over difficult years of struggle, they were finally forced out of Vietnam. The warmakers were never "defeated at the ballot box"--they were defeated in the rice paddies of Vietnam, in a wave of international resistance, and in the streets, campuses and ghettos of the U.S.

The brave and determined street actions of the 1968 Chicago Democratic Convention did infinitely more to end the war in Vietnam, than all the attempts to promote "peace candidates" within the rigged electoral system.

In other words, the U.S. power structure won't change course unless they have to. Their global position and their class nature dictate that they will not back down from all they have launched-- without massive opposition.

We need to set our sights on organizing such struggle--in ways that forcefully expose, reject and oppose the now-dominant government agenda. And such struggle can only be mounted outside their rigged and corrupt electoral system.

*****

From the beginning of the Democratic primary season, one piece of advice has been thrown at people, over and over: Don't rock the boat too much.

Inside and outside the Democratic Party, people are told: Don't be "too angry." Don't be too disrespectful of the current manias for security, defense, and patriotism. Don't undermine the "war presidency," don't be too harsh in criticizing what "our troops" are doing. Assume that most people are gripped by fear--and don't want to hear the truth.

At the bottom it all boils down to this: People are being told that "to defeat Bush you must embrace large parts of the Bush agenda."

This is really a demand that our political actions this year must not break out of the war consensus defined by the official political system.

The argument is made that if people want to "influence the millions who are not politically awake" they need to support an "electable" candidate. But this logic is a complete set-up, because unless there is a massive outpouring of opposition to the whole agenda--that can change the terms of things in the society--these millions of people, who do not know the truth or the issues, will be manipulated by the media, told what to think, and together with the loyal hard-core Bush social base, they will deliver a mandate to Bush.

So the argument against breaking out of the electoral framework is pure poison in this moment. We must precisely "break out"!

The precious resources and organized energy of our resistance must not get channeled and drained into a electoral black hole that is fully dominated by the imperialist ruling class.

Again, the whole agenda of these last years must be called out, exposed, denounced and resisted. And this will NOT happen by focusing on the elections--where such challenges have already been ruled out of order.

Something else, something independent, something determined must be forged. It must be manifested in ways that cannot be hidden, denied, or misrepresented--in the streets, and in other ways throughout society.

New York City in August and September must become a manifesto of rejection and resistance. An outpouring of people, more than a million in the streets, must defy and denounce them and all they stand for.

We revolutionary communists believe that it is important for all of us to think through, seriously and systematically, what it will take to finally stop the empire-builders, corporations and imperialist militaries from dominating the world and exploiting the people.

The RCP believes, as is well known, that it will ultimately take revolutionary action of millions-- here in the U.S. and all over the world--in a whole epoch of sweeping radical change to overthrow the ruling classes and their supporters, uproot capitalism itself, transform society and truly liberate humanity. And the RCP is dedicated to building a hard-core revolutionary movement that can spearhead such change.

We know there are many others who also believe "another world is possible" but, in any case, we can all agree and unite on this: The mass resistance we organize in the period ahead can have a huge impact on everything that follows. This is a moment of great danger and great possibility.

We must fight to turn things around today, knowing that we are preparing new forces for the new struggles of tomorrow.

http://www.rwor.org/a/1233/bushno.htm

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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
75. .
Edited on Fri Mar-26-04 03:10 PM by repeater138
.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. You are joking, correct? Anti-war Lefties betraying someone?
:crazy:
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Paragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yes, they're angels - each and every one of them.
If they betray the Democratic party, what good are they?
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
58. SIEG HEIL!
have you, besides no conscience or morals, no shame?
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Paragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #58
65. You lose.
Godwin's Law -- and no sense of humor, either.
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. ive got humor i havent even used yet
but theres nothing funny about fascism. so get some counseling.
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DisgustiPatriotiated Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Who are the protecting?
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Droopy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. I'm an anti-war lefty and I haven't betrayed anyone
I'm still a Dem despite some of the Dem leadership choosing to go along with Shrub's war. I'm probably further to the left than most Dems, but I see the Democratic Party as the only viable force for change. Call me pragmatic. I know this party can do a lot of good things if we manage to regain the reigns of power.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. I'm an Anti War Leftie who supports Democrats...
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 09:29 PM by Dr Fate
I will say that I have worked for the Democratic party, and that a lot of college leftists I know had no concept of relating to elderly, military, Black,"Redneck" or even Union voters...

For these guys is was all about protests- and little about getting folks tot he ballot box...
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. This anti-war movement activist
has always voted democratic in every race for over 30 years.

You know what? I think Kerry's vote for IWR was wrong and that there is no excuse for it other than simple political cowardice.

You know what else? I am a donor to his campaign, a precinct volunteer, and will vote for him in November.

All that aside, there are issues, like the war, where I will disagree and be critical of John Kerry. I will do so because I think he is wrong in his policy choices. I just think he is less wrong than Bush.

Want to trash me about it? When you are ready to pony up as many dollars and hours as I am to get this man elected, feel free to do so.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Thanks QuakerBill
This is where I think people generalize and alienate to our detriment.

we may disagree on what the actual effect of Kerry's vote was, but it doesn't mean I don't respect your position.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. You speak for most of us Bill
I too believe Kerry's IWR vote was one of cowardice and done completely for political expediency, just in case Saddam did have WMD.

I don't believe these so-called "side agreements" to NAFTA were ever meant to be anything but a bone thrown to the unions to get them on board for "free trade".

I also vehemently disagree with the so-called "war on drugs" which has done nothing but increase both drug use and incarceration rates for young black and latino males.

I also think fighting a so-called "war on terror" the way it has been fought for the last 20+ years will not eradicate terror, nor provide for our national security.

However, I will vote for John Kerry in November.

I will also vote for my local Democratic state legislator (whom I've done websites for in past campaigns, and donated money to), my state Senator (a progressive, openly gay liberal, just like his predecessor), my Democratic congresscritter (a bit of a disappointment, but a D no less).

I have been a political activist since my teens in the mid-80s. I got my start demonstrating against apartheid and the Contras in Nicaragua. Paul Wellstone inspired me to join the Democratic Party, when he showed it was okay to practice civil disobedience and vote Democratic, too.

If my commitment somehow doesn't pass some Democrat's litmus test, that's too damn bad. This party is just as much my party as it is their party. And I refuse to be driven out of it again.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
42. Yes, it's not the "ati-war leftists". It's the "fringe leftists"
That is, those who support "principles" without any consideration of the consequences of their positions.
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
14. You're trying to be oh-so-clever, but actually, your post reveals the very
haughtiness & blindness of Democrats that has rightfully caused so many on the left to leave the party. You see, we don't OWE the Democrats a damn thing. Those of us opposed to America's criminal wars have right on our side, & the fact that the Democratic Party does not oppose criminal wars reflects badly on the Party - not on us.

Even in a situation like the present one, most rank & file Democrats see that the Iraq War is a complete fraud. Yet the party, through its corrupt machinations, has unsurprisingly nominated a pro-war Democrat as its standard-bearer. If you understood the meaning of this more clearly, you'd be ashamed, rather than trying to foment hostility against the people who have been right about the war from the very start.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. You keep calling him a pro war democrat in SPITE of his numerous
statements indicating his intent was to force Bush back to UN. For being a thinking man, you certainly have no trouble demonstrating intellectual dishonesty with the use of buzz words such as PRO WAR when it serves you.
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. What does Kerry's post-invasion bleating have to do with his actions?
Words are cheap.

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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. His statements were made prior to the war on exactly why he voted
as he did...ya might wanna double check your own bleating in the matter
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zoeyfong Donating Member (508 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. There was NO WAY the UN could have done anything to stop the war,
and this was obvious to all but those in deliberate denial. For kerry and others to suggest that they were only giving bush the ok to go to the UN is ludicrous. Did any of these people seriously think that bush would not go to war unless the UN okayed it? Please. The only ones who could have stopped this war were the american people and the US congress, and John Kerry *did nothing to stop it.* No, he could not have single-handedly stopped the war. No one is saying he could have, but he is at least responsible for *trying to stop it* and at the very least *not lending his support to it.* It's not that hard; lots of people did it.
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DisgustiPatriotiated Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. Okay. You win.
Vote for Nader. There is no other alternative.

Bye
:hi:
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zoeyfong Donating Member (508 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #37
81. You're right; there is no there alternative. And contrary to what many
seem to think, dems who have decided to go 3rd party do not take any glee in it, nor are we doing out of spite because 'our guy' didn't win. And although it apparently pains you that there be dissenting voices in the dem party, i am not going to disappear. Until such a time when a 3rd party becomes a viable winner, i will continue to try to influence the direction of the democratic party directly, as is my right. The political process is complex and dynamic, and it is not simply a matter of looking at what the two major parties have to offer, picking one, and shutting up.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #26
63. He voted the way he did because the election was a month
away and he was afraid of being called unpatriotic.
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. His statements are simply attempts to have it both ways, pretending to
be sternly pro-war for audiences who think militarism is a turn-on; & posturing as something else for left-leaning audiences. Anyone who'd swallow the "force Bush back to UN" theory should contact me with bids for a bridge in Brooklyn that I'm putting on the market, cheap.

Note: Kucinich, Wellstone, Kennedy, Byrd et al didn't fall for that "force Bush back to UN" theory. I wonder why not.
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DisgustiPatriotiated Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Oh bullshit
:eyes:

None are so blind as those who WILL NOT see. Kerry's statements have ALWAYS been very clear on this.

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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Bullshit yourself.
His "clear" statements are those of a two-faced pandering politico, who lacked the integrity to do the right thing.
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DisgustiPatriotiated Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. You "should" vote for Nader then.
or for .. whoever ...

I don't mind losing people like you to the dark side. The Democratic Party is not a good fit for you.
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #27
80. out damned spot!
I hear the Republicans have a big tent? At least they try to pretend so. Not you though, honest and intolerant of others, theres the traditional Democratic white sheet mentality. Just like old times.
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zoeyfong Donating Member (508 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #23
33. Clear in what way? Kerry was giving the UN final approval on the war,
and since the UN didn't approve, he was against it? Is that what he was saying? Jeezus h. christ, didn't kerry make a crack about howard dean (or other un-named wimps) allegedly giving the UN control of america's national security? Any way you slice it, kerry's pro-IWR vote was an inexcusable lapse in judgement and he has no business being president.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #33
44. More fringe spin
didn't kerry make a crack about howard dean (or other un-named wimps) allegedly giving the UN control of america's national security?

Yes he did, and Kerry was right for doing so. Having Congress vote to make an invasion of Iraq contingent on UN approval is NOT "giving the UN control of america's national security" (that's the Repukes argument AGAINST giving the UN a role to play in the decision) because the decision to do so was made in the US, in Congress.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. Funny. this is a backtrack on what you acknowledged with Irate Citizen
the other day. DO you change the story when there's no one around to keep you honest?
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. What is the alleged backtrack, exactly?
:shrug:
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #29
48. The backtrack is
how you oscillate between "Kerry's IWR vote shows he's pro-war" and "Kerry takes both sides of the issue" based on expediency.
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flaminbats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
20. Zell Miller, Ben Nelson, Ben Nighthorse Campbell, Billy Tauzin, Phil Gramm
George Tenet, Ralph Hall, Rodney Alexander, Tom Delay, and Richard Shelby...others whom deserve to burn in the hottest cells of Hell!

And we lefties take pride in our consistent loyalty to the party and its basic principles.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
21. Well, I sold Classified Information to the Government of Iceland once.
But only once.
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gate of the sun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
22. I don't understand this post
I'm an anti-war lefty planning on voting for Kerry. Not because I like him or agree with his policies or actions. I do this to get rid of bush knowing full well Kerry is not going to be much better. Yet somehow I am still a betrayer. I think you are being a betrayer by trying to drive us away with this accusation.

I guess the only way I could absolve myself in your eyes would be that I stop thinking, noticing obvious flaws in our candidate and only speak praises and forget what I know to be true. I really don't get this post.
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Actually, you've understood the post perfectly. Democrats think that
1) all antiwar people "owe" them their vote, even though the party doesn't run antiwar candidates, and

2) they have contempt for antiwar people ANYWAY. Even if you vote for their lousy two-faced war-enabling candidates, it's not enough for them. They still want you to sit in the back of the bus.
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Paragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. Actually...
He should click on the original thread if he wants to understand why it was threadjacked.

I used to think like you -- I voted for Nader in Ohio last time around. I regret it. Work within the Party if you want to see real change. Work outside of it at our own peril.
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. Don't kid yourself. You didn't really used to think like me.
Voting for Nader has nothing to do with it (though I may well decide to vote for some 3rd party candidate).

I no longer have the slightest bit of respect for the Democratic Party. I think of it, with a handful of honorable exceptions, as a collection of weasels and traitors. I see the 2-party system itself as the enemy - not Republicans in particular. I think the Democratic rank & file is completely detached from reality - perhaps more so than Republicans.

I view DU as an amusing insane asylum, frequented predominantly by a bunch of hysterical & politically immature individuals. The Nader Two-Minute Hate sessions here are certifiably psychotic. Your thread, in particular, trying to make antiwar lefties the bad guys (for having principles) and Democrats the good guys (for being spineless cowardly sell-outs) is typical of the low intellectual quality stuff that DU has to offer.

In fact, your thread is basically a witch hunt. Anti-war lefties are the good guys - the ones the clueless Dem Party should be listening to, learning from, supporting & emulating. It's shameful that you try to make us out to be the villains, for the "crime" of not falling into line when you nominate a completely unacceptable candidate.

The idea that "working within the Dem Party" is the way to effect change is a fantastically childish notion. I don't regard it as even worth discussing. Suffice it to say, that neither history nor honest analysis supports it.
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Paragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. For that, I should be grateful.
You're right - I don't "think" like you.
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Hav Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. .
"I view DU as an amusing insane asylum, frequented predominantly by a bunch of hysterical & politically immature individuals."

Then why are you still here?
Just leave, it won't be a loss.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #39
46. He is here
for "The Nader Two-Minute Hate sessions" and "The DNC Two-Year Hate Sessions"
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Donating Member ( posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #30
51. Now you're getting at the heart of it.
Depends what kind of change you mean. Working outside of it might create some real change, as in revolution, as opposed to incremental change. It's got to do with how desperate you think things are. I don't think I want to take a chance on having another 4 years of Bush, but I don't fault those who argue for taking that risk.

Something from the I Ching applies to this very well.

"Political revolutions are extremely grave matters. They should be undertaken only under stress of direst necessity, when there is no other way out."

Some people think this is one of those times.

*******

Regarding anti-war activists and Democrats. The Democratic Party has never been particularly anti-war, so why should anti-war activists have any allegiance to it? A Democrat dropped the atomic bomb, for example. A Democrat escalated the Vietnam War.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
38. The middle class - us
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
40. Anti-war lefty here.
Sorry. I haven't betrayed anyone. Including dems. I happen to be a democrat for 2003/2004. I joined a party for the first time. Not so that I could put party before principle, before country, before people. I joined for these reasons:

1. I thought democrats ought to stop taking my vote for granted; stop getting the benefit of my vote without representing me. Because, in spite of not belonging to a party, I've voted mostly for democrats for 26 years. So I thought I'd try working from the inside for a change.

2. Dennis Kucinich. I finally found a democrat I could work for and support whole-heartedly.

3. The need to evict GWB.

4. The profound need for change I see in American politics and culture.

Is it a betrayal to expect the party to allow me a place at the table when they are getting my vote?

Or are the shrill, strident attacks on the "left wing" of the democratic party a betrayal, helping to drive potential voters and supporters away at a time they are most needed to help defeat *?

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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. You Hit the Nail on the Head
The whole point of the question only appeals to those who are strong on Party but weak on beliefs, instead of the other way around.

Without our beliefs, there IS no Party. Its just a mob. Just a bunch of people with no more moral claim to leadership than a football team has a moral claim to the Super Bowl. At that point, with beliefs cast aside, it only comes down to winning. That is WEAK.

In fact, that's what many Repugs say about us - that we have a party that doesn't stand for anything. I insist that we prove them wrong.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. I'll join you in that insistence.
Strong on beliefs, strong on work to achieve the best outcome for people, builds party strength. Let's do it.

:hi:
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
47. God, Jesus, the Virgin Mary, Santa, the Easter Bunny,
you, and...let's see...who else...well, unless you include all the othe cartoon characters from Warner Brothers and Disney, I think that's about it.

Oh, and by the way, "anti-war lefties" are all individuals who have not lied to people in order to steal their support. When someone asks who a political party has betrayed - that means who has that party lied to, used, and misused for political gain. I know you were attempting to be cute with this post, but it really isn't a comparable question. If you betray me, as individuals, that can mean that you are an asshole or it can mean that I disserve to be betrayed. But when a political party betrays any of its constiuency, then that is dispicable and beneath contempt. Now, you can argue whether or not a betryal has taken place, but to equate that to an individual betraying another individual - without organizational committments - is silly.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
49. Most haven't betrayed anyone -- but some certainly have...
What I am referring to are those activists who, out of a demand for political purity, choose to vote third party in races that COULD throw an election to the worse of two evils.

Those activists may not feel the effects, but there are millions of people living on the "margins of society" who most certainly will. Those activists are betraying everyone who is thrown out of work and home, who loses the ability to put food on the table, as a result of the policies enacted by that worse of two evils.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #49
61. come now, Chris
Those activists may not feel the effects

I know a lot of opinions and intents are in flux right now on the DU left (many of my own included), but I'd very much like to believe that you aren't going in for Carlos' old argument that third-party voters are all puritanical trust-fund babies.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Good point
Many of them WILL feel the effects. I guess like those striking for benefits in Denmark, they prefer to suffer in the short term for a bigger payoff?
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #61
69. No, they're not -- but most ARE middle class
Edited on Fri Mar-26-04 09:43 AM by IrateCitizen
Uly, there's no denying the historical tendency of most activists to be drawn from the middle class -- at least on issues like peace, trade, etc. There's no implication of trust funds here, just the fact that most middle class people are close enough to these things that they SEE the effects, but far enough removed that they have the opportunities to devote resources to it.

By no means is this an across-the-board thing, but it certainly is a common thread.

And what I am referring to here is the attitudes of a small core of activists, represented even on these boards, who say, "I'm not going to vote for Kerry, because of (insert self-righteous reasoning here)."

Perhaps the fallacy of this argument was pointed out best by Noam Chomsky, when he said that although they are both (Bush and Kerry) representatives of business interests and a Kerry presidency would not result in any sort of meaningful change, the scope of power with which we are dealing means that even those small differences would be quite significant for a vast number of people.

I'm also reminded of a letter in The Nation, written by a former aide of the late Sen. Paul Simon, following his death. In it, the aide tells of riding in a car with Sen. Simon through Washington, DC, at which time they passed a homeless man sleeping on the street. Sen. Simon frowned and said, "You know, THAT is the legacy of the Reagan administration."

While I am certain that for many of us in the middle class, the differences between Reagan/Bush and, say, Clinton, were not incredibly significant on the domestic front -- at least not in regards to our daily lives. But such a story shows us that the differences for those on the "margins" of society are HUGE.

THAT is the point I was trying to make.

ON EDIT: And I must say I'm disappointed, uly, for having known me through these boards for quite some time and not appreciating the difference between my nuanced arguments as opposed to the presentation of a false dichotomy, as our old friend Carlos used to repeatedly do.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #69
76. still not sure I entirely agree with that
and even if most activists *are* middle class, I don't think that that means that they're beyond the effects of severe economic times...which, of course, is not to say that those effects are the same as those felt by those at the edges, but still. The idea that left activists are free to do as they please without fear of economic or other repurcussion is a canard, man.

(and while I certainly don't mean to equate you with JCJ, I didn't see the nuance that I've come to expect from you in that part of what you wrote, so I asked. Sorry to disappoint, but I still think it's a canard. :) )

Perhaps the fallacy of this argument was pointed out best by Noam Chomsky, when he said that although they are both (Bush and Kerry) representatives of business interests and a Kerry presidency would not result in any sort of meaningful change, the scope of power with which we are dealing means that even those small differences would be quite significant for a vast number of people.

Fair enough, and I appreciate what Chomsky's been writing. Then there's also this, however:

Sen. Simon frowned and said, "You know, THAT is the legacy of the Reagan administration."

Is it not the legacy of Clinton's welfare "reform" as well?

Look - I'm voting for Kerry in November, but what Chomsky's not explicitly saying is that, while the difference is real, it's not enough over the long haul. Maybe he doesn't feel that way, but I suspect that he does and I know I do. So we'll get a difference with Kerry. That's all well and good, but if we simply accept the (not-large) degree of difference that we get and go on our merry way, without continuing to press for real change, we'll find ourselves still well and truly fucked ten or twenty years down the road instead of three or five.

Sure, vote Kerry, but we're not doing much for the folks in the worst danger if that's where it ends.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. c'mon uly
You are really distorting what Chris said and misportraying what has been said here. Let's recount:

1) IC made a highly qualified statement about a small segment of voters. He spoke of those who vote third party, in areas where the election is tight, for reasons that are questionable.

2) You responded and misportrayed that as a statement about ALL of the left

3) IC responded by speaking of the demographics of activists

4) You now respond that IC's post (described in #1 above) did not have nuance, which is why you compared it to a Carlos post EVEN THOUGH IC's original post was highly qualified.

You also raise a straw man by saying "The idea that left activists are free to do as they please without fear of economic or other repurcussion is a canard, man."

I don't see where IC claims that ALL left activists are "free to do as they please without fear..." I do see where IC points out the being in the middle class does provide some protection.

Is it not the legacy of Clinton's welfare "reform" as well?

No. Homelessness went down under Clinton while home ownership rates, and housing subsidies went up.

Sure, vote Kerry, but we're not doing much for the folks in the worst danger if that's where it ends.

And who is saying it ends on Election Day?
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #78
83. I need you to translate IC for me now?
:eyes: Right.
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
50. You are the one being divisive.
With Richard Clark, Paul O'Neill testimony..All the lies. The AMerican people need know the truth.. Should the Democratic party be a party to this fraudulent war- then we have a problem. Political discussions need be a learning experience. When we have been conned into a war for private Bush booty- and the American people are suckered in by lies to not campaign against them is a abborgation of duty.
We will not surrender issues of conscience such as pre-fabricated wars and continuing bad trade deals that will destroy our economy, just because some pr guy says to shut up. Either we have correct solutions to our national problems or we don't. The battle will never end as to what our party stands for.The party is not like the the COmmunists where pols at the end of the ticket must surrender to what the top commands it to do.
You labeling us as lefties is just an attempt burry issues, that probably the whole of the party disagrees with you .
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
52. Priorities: Being antiwar is important. Being a "Dem" is not important.
Being a Democrat means simply following the line of one of the 2 big business parties. What, pray tell, is the great virtue in that?

The party hasn't had a major social progress success since Medicare almost 40 years ago. Its list of betrayals of working people is long & legendary. It has rolled over disgracefully for the crimes of the Bush administration. And now, with the most blatantly unjust war in US history ongoing in Iraq, it nominates a candidate supportive of the war.

The suggestion that a sorry record like this deserves unqualified allegiance, while "antiwar lefties" (ie, people with actual principles) deserve to be smeared for "party disloyalty" -- this is commissar-think, really beyond laughable. The lead post in this thread (meant to be witty) is unintentionally quite revealing of the real Democratic Party mentality. According to that mentality, opposing unjust wars is unimportant - but those opposing such wars are expected to vote for Democrats anyhow, & will be demonized if they don't act happy about it.

The only real argument for the Democratic Party is that it's the lesser evil. Very little moral authority is attached to such a limited claim to fame.

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cetasika Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
53. why are anti-war being bashed?
I thought this was a liberal site.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. Hi cetasika!
Welcome to DU! :hi:

(not touching that question, though! :))
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Paragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. HEY, CETASIKA
Go to the fantasy baseball league -- SOON.
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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
56. This thread is insulting and divisive
I am 1 of millions of anti-war lefties who will be voting and donating and working for Kerry this year. I have reportted the thread and hope it gets locked.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
57. And DU continues it's rightward tack
:puke:
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. You are right, Fork,
and it makes me :puke: too.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
WitchWay Donating Member (558 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
64. Common Sense?
There is nothing COMMONSENSE about the war that is going on.
THERE IS NOTHING commonsense about this war!
This war is a DISGRACE.
Kerry has NO EXCUSE For his IWR vote - NONE!

Dems have gotten so deluded with inane party loyalism and ignorant fascist ABB pep-rallyism to hold Kerry to task on ANYTHING. Funny how mercurial peoples ethics are when you slap a democratic face on a corporatist, oil-industry agenda.

The Dems are completely betraying themselves by having no prinicples, ideals, or qualms about this war. This war is insane and unreasonable.

Kerry is more fucking concerned with his "right-wing" base and corporate paymasters than giving a shit about the war, or people or the left. That should tell you what party he "really" belongs too.
Do people really want a party that hates ideals or ethics? And what happened to the war opposition? Will those who opposed the war be just as hard on Kerry for remaining in the war? Cuz, Kerry is bullshitting you all when he talks like we've got to stay there.

Kerry's half-hearted excuse that he "believed" the intelligence is an absolute, strikes me as a complete crock of bull. Too bad that the Dems are pulling the wool over everyone's eye with all this "unity" crapola -- it's just to get everyone to shut up and not make any noise or demands on the party so that the party can screw everyone over more, quietly support Bush's war, and let Kerry help to further the same fucking imperialist agenda as his Bones-brother Bush did.

All I have to say is that it is a complete and utter disgrace what is going on to the Dem party. A complete disgrace.

All I can say is that anyone who can ought to go and help support Kucinich and try to change the direction of things -- because otherwise the Democratic Party is over.
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Paragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 03:26 AM
Response to Original message
66. READ
Edited on Fri Mar-26-04 03:27 AM by Paragon
...the fucking original thread I listed in the first post, for Christ's sake.

If some "anti-war lefty" has the gall to post that all Dems have abandoned them, then I am obligated to ask the same insulting question in reverse...which I did.

If you're insulted by this thread, ask who started asking dumb questions first.
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WitchWay Donating Member (558 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. Insulting Question?
But isn't it up to Kerry to try to win the election? Shouldn't Kerry be concerned about winning if he wants support?

Sorry, I think your rhetorical argument doesn't quite work in reverse, in this situation.

In addition, you are being insulting in even this post.

You are saying that it's not okay for the anti war "lefty" (btw: do you mean that derogatorily? do you think "lefties" are bad?) -- to have the "gall" to post that Dems have abandoned them? I think that The Dems should be careful about who they have left feeling abandoned. Its' stupid to let so many people feel abandoned - really stupid politically.

People are going to respond. In this case, it is Kerry who has the power to win support -- and people are not backing down because that is the only way to get representation and action to oppose the war.
War is a pretty damn serious thing. So, I think that is a pretty damn reasonable demand that people would want political representation about. I don't think people who are anti-war are in any bit petty, as you seem to imply.
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #66
72. I asked myself
turns out it was you!
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markus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
68. What's the point of all this red-baiting?
Are you trying to drive everyone to the left of Bill Clinton out of the party?

What the hell kind of victory strategy is that?

Yes, there are fickle and unreliable people on the left. There are also a lot of ex-Naderites who jumped to Kucinich. Kerry and our party seems to be adopting a stance of driving these people back out of the party.

This olive-branch for the corporations and a hickory stick for us to me seems to be a defeatist strategy. I'm not jumping. I'm a life-long Democratic voter (registered Independent when I was a journalist). I'm donating for and working for and voting for the Democratic ticket.

But I can guarantee that Kerry and the DNC seem to be following a strategy of trying to boot out people I've been working on very hard to get back into the party for the last two years.

Another thought: there weren't more than half-a-dozen known, active Democrats at the anti-war rallies where I live. Where the hell were they?

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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #68
82. Good questions, Id love to hear the answers myself
as obvious as they are.
The most intelligent possibility is that Republican operatives are in full swing to divide and conquer. Clearly a pattern of low post count over the top librul screen names and scripted "hypothetical" responses to issues that easily damage Bush are springing up like poppies, poppies, poppies. poppy?
Hard core progressives are less likely to cowtow to centrist betrayals, so if the leadership expects to actually win with a fat center, I wish them luck. You cant call an apple a pear though, as so many here are trying to do. Democrats voted for Bush in much larger numbers than Nader in Florida, but what have you been hearing non-stop for three years now? Not exactly a hearty welcoming tone.
As for Democrats at anti-war demos, Ive NEVER seen any local Deanie types anywhere near, yet that campaign attempted (or succeeded?)to steal the mantle of anti-Bush imperialism and screwed the people who thought backing Dean would gain their concerns anything.
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drumwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
70. To those who say "antiwar folks don't owe the Dems anything"...
...you're right. You DON'T owe the DEMOCRATIC PARTY anything -- it's AMERICA that you do owe everything to, since this country gave you all the freedoms you enjoy.

And right now it is absolutely imperative for America that we get Bush out of the White House -- yes, even if it means voting for someone who also voted for the IWR.

You know, if the Republican opponent in the election was a relatively sane, competent, and moderate and/or principled one (like, say, McCain, Hagel, Schwarzenegger or Giuliani), I'd be perfectly fine with all of you voting for Nader or the Greens and I wouldn't be lecturing you about why you should be voting for Kerry. I absolutely agree that Kerry will not be a great president. But Bush has been a disaster and America can't afford another four years of him.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
74. PROWAR, HERE! I LOVE WAR! BRING IT ON...WHO'S NEXT?
Edited on Fri Mar-26-04 03:06 PM by rucky
Lemme at 'em! I'll splat 'em!

And I didn't lose my common sense, either!
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
77. Bush, the Republicans the corporate media, Enron, Halliburnton
The anti-war lefties keep pointing out the flaws of these bad guys. These anti-lefties should sue? Oh, the Dems? The anti-war lefties are their best friends because, if Bush is defeated, it is because of the anti-war lefties who are bringing out the truth.

Give my regards to Dubya. Hope he enjoys Sing Sing. Like the other anti-war lefties, I'm kicking him out in November and pushing to get him incarcerated.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
84. perhaps Repubicrats?
see? I can play ugly too. Sorry, but all this divisiveness makes me sick.This is really sad.
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