"Obama "Open" to Privatizing Public Education"

[Tom Rinaldo]

I want to get my third thread of the day out of my system so here it is. This is a heads up to the currently top ranked Diary at Mydd of the same name as my OP. It is thoughtful, it has citations, and it is an issue I think that is worthy of discussion here also.

I'll include the "money quote" from Obama taken from that Diary here, but I urge DUers interested in public education to read the entire Mydd Diary:


"...Senator Obama said this week that he is open to supporting private school vouchers if research shows they work.

"I will not allow my predispositions to stand in the way of making sure that our kids can learn," Mr. Obama, who has previously said he opposes vouchers, said in a meeting with the editorial board of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel. "We're losing several generations of kids, and something has to be done."
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/20/105444/139

[roguevalley]

1. They don't. Private schools, charters etc have been shown to do

no better than public schools. I don't want my tax money funding religious or private schools. Damn it. No.

RV, teacher 27 years retired.

[shaniqua6392]

30. You are absolutely right on that one!!

BTW....Thank you for so many years of service to our children! Teachers are angels on earth in my opinion.

[UALRBSofL]

108. The voucher system was a Reagan failure

I hope he doesn't plan on following through with this. If parents don't want to send there kids to public schools they can choose to send them to private schools on there own dime. First, this is a (R) Wing initiative. Second, kids that are sent to private schools do so because they don't want there kids to be around the working class kids. Third, this will really create a decay in the public schools by taking funding away and giving it to private schools. In my opinion, this is just Obama flapping his gums pandering to get the republican vote.

[busymom]

169. Actually, this puts obama in a good light to me

I have 5 children and 4 of them are currently of school-age. We live in an excellent district, but the public school here failed our first two miserably. Our other two are doing well in the public schools.

Children are unique and have individual strengths and weaknesses. The public schools refused to address my sons abilities and continuously brushed off our concerns as parents. He was accepted into a private school that has jumped him up a grade in several subjects and lets him work ahead if he wants. He is happy now and so are we.

Our daughter was subject to terrible harrassment when she started middle school. This was the kind of bullying that involved threats of violence. The school was unable to get control of it. After a year of the non-sense, we switched her to a private school for her protection. It was the right move. She is regaining her self-esteem and is thriving.

My younger two are fine where they are at. Their needs are being met appropriately within the school system...

My husband and I pay a lot of money in taxes though and..we are subject to the alternative minimum tax so we can't even deduct private school tuition. Sadly, the public schools do fail sometimes and there should be a voucher system. Let me take my tax dollars with me to the school of my choice.

[demo dutch]

175. Vouchers and charter schools will rake havoc on an already weakened system

Instead of making Public education a national priority and give it the proper attention and funding it needs, like other Western nations in the world. It all boils down to Politicians running the system instead of educators that's the first major mistake in this country.
They have made huge strides in destroying the system over the past 20 years. It's all been about the destruction of Public Education, since Reagan.

[busymom]

176. I don't know what the answer is

but as a parent with children in the schools, I have to tell you that something needs to change. A lack of choice also means that schools can pretty much do as they want...and when it hurts your child, it does become an issue. Unless we can agree on raising standards for teachers, creating equal educational opportunities throughout the US (not based on living where the money is, but on standardizing schools throughout the US) then I don't see many other ways out. You can't just blame Reagan..but I'm not a fan of the man. I know any disagreeing around here gets chalked up to freeper status...but I'd entertain Obama on this.

[crawfish]

183. Yes, that's right. Give them more money. That'll fix the problem.

BS.

My son was getting lost in the public school. His grades were going down. He was struggling. He's brilliant, but shy and unassertive. Since he's not causing trouble and not flunking out, we were told that there is nothing that could be done for him. This is in a very good school system with more than adequate funding.

Now, he attends a charter school. Public funding provides half the cost; they depend on donations for the other half. He is thriving. He has shot ahead of his class and it taking college-level courses in the 9th grade. His grades are excellent. He is happy, well-liked and well-adjusted. The school is definitely not for everybody, but for him it is a godsend. As it is for us - we are not wealthy and could not afford the cost of a private school.

I'm so sorry that I'm not sacrificing my son's future to uphold the honor of traditional public schools. I have seen too many ISD's spend extra funding on worthless items - take a look at the insane battles over money with the Dallas ISD - to believe that more money is going to solve much. I'm all for increasing teacher salaries and improving facilities and equipment, but only a FRACTION of money goes towards these things. Where there is money, there is corruption, and the kids end up getting screwed.

In the end, it's about choice. There needs to be a way for parents who care about their kids, and for kids who care about their futures, to find situations that help them to succeed. I'm sorry if this sounds callous, but I'd rather sacrifice a kid that is probably not going to succeed no matter what than sacrifice a kid who will succeed given better circumstances.

I've got three public school teachers in my family who agree with me, btw.

[busymom]

208. I agree 100%

My two older children are thriving now outside of the public school and we live in the best public school district in this area. They simply couldn't meet our children's needs. No. They wouldn't. Our schools invest money in all kinds of feel-good programs and field trips, but they couldn't come up with a math program to meet our son's needs. They wouldn't consider putting him ahead just in math. They wouldn't allow him to work ahead at home.

His new school tested him before he started, put him at an appropriate grade level for him and have worked with us as parents to ensure his success.

The public schools are failing in part due to attitudes of certain professionals....

And...my best friend is a public school teacher who agrees with me and is an Obama supporter.

[earth mom]

180. NO doubt in my mind the money will go to religious schools! The fundies are praying for this!

:grr:

[crawfish]

184. So what?

As long as nobody is forced to attend religious studies, and the schools who receive funding are required to meet strict educational criteria to qualify...INCLUDING the teaching of evolutionary theory...Then why does it matter?

[earth mom]

185. Because this country was founded upon the separation of church and state that's why.

Fundies keep trying to blur the line 24/7. :puke:

[crawfish]

197. It's a line that's always been blurry

As long as a religious entity is not gaining some level of governmental power, I don't see why we should care. A religious school would have to meet the same criteria as every other charter school; and thus, the more radical ones will opt out of the program, as they will deep those requirements unacceptable.

I don't see a problem.

[earth mom]

198. The line of separation is NOT blurry. You just want to pretend it is. nt

[crawfish]

206. Sure it is.

Some people are overreacting, wanting to push "separation of church and state" farther than it was ever intended to go. They want to extend that separation past where it is harmful - where religion has direct influence over governmental matters - and into where it is either neutral or even beneficial. It is becoming more of an attempt to suppress religion rather than to protect against it.

[earth mom]

210. Religion was a private matter for YEARS in this country. The fundies have pushed it front & center

because it's their agenda to make their insane fundie jesus freak religion an integral part of how this country is run.

The ONLY people who think religion is being suppressed in this country are the fundies. The rest of us want them to shut the fuck up and keep their bullshit to themselves!!!

BTW- the fundies are the MINORITY in this country. They are just loud as hell and never shut the hell up! Make no mistake, the majority of people in this country-christian and otherwise-want them to knock their shit off!!!

[enid602]

2. sad

Privatized education, non-universal health care, he wants to eliminate the need for future wars (but won't comment if he'll stop end the one we're in). . . . Never thought I'd see this board embrace such ideas.

[brentspeak]

3. Between Obama and Hillary, the Democrats will be nominating a Republican

:banghead:

[Birthmark]

17. Both of them are Semi-crats, not Democrats, imo. nt

[sabbat hunter]

164. Obama

has one of the most liberal voting records in the Senate. not exactly a DINO or Semi-crat as you put it.

[earth mom]

179. Which means the senate has been taken over by rethuglicans & what used to be left is now right wing.

:grr:

[rodeodance]

36. Hillary will get rid of NCLB--Obama says he will 'fix" it.

[Hoof Hearted]

189. Just like Jim Cooper is going to "fix" healthcare - sometime around the end of Obama's first term.

So far the only fierce urgency I see in the "fierce urgency of now" it Obama getting Obama into office.

[SammyWinstonJack]

178. That's probably the plan.

[rodeodance]

4. privatizing seems to be the solution to everything nowadays! damm

[MonkeyFunk]

5. Ugh

that's unfortunate.

[Horse with no Name]

6. Decimate the public school system for the republicans.

They've been wanting to do it for years and guess what? One of OURS is itching to hand it to them on a silver platter.
THEN they can teach their fucking religion unfettered, which has been the goal all along.
Hey obama...how about a novel idea...PROPERLY FUND EVERY FUCKING SCHOOL DISTRICT IN THE COUNTRY and see what these kids are capable of.

[enid602]

8. Milquetoast

That would be polarizing. Only the Republicans are allowed to be divisive, partisan and pro-active. Democrats are expected to be docile, accomodating and bipartisan. Milquetoast!

[anigbrowl]

7. In one short message, you still had to misquote

You went from:

"...Senator Obama said this week that he is open to supporting private school vouchers if research shows they work."

to:

"Obama "Open" to Privatizing Public Education"


Sorry, that is deceptive and misleading, so I grade this post as a 'FAIL'. I think a commitment to public education is important, and I happen to like what Obama has said about it. I am not sold on school vouchers, but I am not in deadly opposition to them either. They my have a place in our educational system. I am all for having a lively debate about what the different candidates would do to improve education in the US, and i hope it comes up in the televised debate Thursday. But this thread is a sad disappointment.

[Horse with no Name]

9. Pure semantics. It means the same thing sans a word or two

You and your merry band of henchmen are leading us into another republican presidency because you refuse to see the truth about your candidate.
All I can say...this will NOT be my fault.
It will be yours and your cohorts. All wrapped up nice and tidy.

[SammyWinstonJack]

22. ...

:thumbsup:!

[ProgressIn2008]

102. I second that

:thumbsup:

[anigbrowl]

57. Fine, it's not your fault...

...and I don't buy this endless FUD about 'you'll give it to the republicans!'. It's one of the oldest tricks in the book: you can't get up enough support for your candidate, so you try and scare off a few doubters and undecideds by describing the terrible consequences of voting for the other candidate.

'Vote for Bush - or the terrorists win!'
'Vote for Hillary - or McCain wins!'

I pity the fool that's taken in by such jibber-jabber.

[Horse with no Name]

68. Our country is already in ruins

I hoped we would get a candidate who could help, I was wrong. We'll get obama and more of the same.
I have a secure job. I have insurance. I have a home. My kids college educations are already paid for.
My lifestyle is NOT threatened by whoever sits in that oval office.
However, I am extremely sympathetic to those whose lives are.
However, if this country votes against THEIR interests again, then they are to blame because they were too foolish to scratch the surface of their bright shiny new toy to find simply the same toy that was there before that fresh coat of paint was put on it.

[demo dutch]

171. So true! 4 more yrs of disaster. The country gets what it deserves!

[earth mom]

181. Yeah, I've been thinking the same thing myself lately after trying to warn people about H & O.

If H or O is elected, come 2009, lots of people around DU are gonna be crying in their beer when they see the truth. NO doubt about it. :argh:

[Cameron27]

58. Yes!

:applause:

[BlackVelvet04]

86. Absolutely!!!! n/t

[Tom Rinaldo]

15. My use of quotes in the OP were to signify that I was quoting the title from another source

That is in fact the name of the Mydd Diary, and I clearly indicated that the subject line of my OP was taken from that Diary's subject line. I simply sugested that the Diary seemed worthy of discussion. I made no attempt to personally characterize Obama's position on this issue.

[stillcool]

79. but did it say anywhere...

that Senator Obama said anything about vouchers?

[Tom Rinaldo]

117. Sure, here:

http://www.nysun.com/article/71403

[northzax]

16. um, vouchers are privatizing

same thing, different name. Public money going to private institutions to make up for a public failure is the very definition of privatization.

[brentspeak]

18. The OP is quoting from the link headline provided

And the two sentences mean the same thing. Also, research has not shown that private school vouchers work -- with the sole exception of GOP and DLC think tank propaganda masquerading as academic research.

[onehandle]

20. School vouchers are our tax dollars being used to fund right-wing religious schools.

Simple as that.

No school vouchers.

[Enrique]

149. that's not true

simple as that

[demo dutch]

172. It very often is true!

[sandnsea]

24. When what he really said

is that his predisposition is against them, but we have to recognize we're losing lots of kids.

[Neshanic]

31. Does he talk in code that only Obama people understand the true meaning?

[sandnsea]

37. Well I read the words on the page

Where the writer interpreted his remarks as he is open to privatization, when the actual Obama quote doesn't say that at all.

[QC]

54. You need a decoder ring.

That comes after you get to Operating Thetan Level VII.

[ellisonz]

65. You're correct.

[anigbrowl]

If you were quoting the original headline...

then I apologize for directing my ire at you - but the headline is nonetheless a deceptive way to frame what was actually said.

Meantime, I don't buy this stuff about vouchers. They can be used for religious schooling et al, but that does not mean that they are equivalent to privatization or that they will inevitably all flow to religious organizations. What we need to do is dispassionately examine the voucher issue and how they might be administered; taking an ideological stance against them is just as foolish as demands that schools teach creationism.

This has been a kneejerk issue for far too long, with the idea that vouchers are bad in all circumstances for ever taking the place of serious reasoned objection. People on the right have questioned, with some justification, whether the objections are not partly a figleaf for the falling academic standards in teaching, not all of which can be blamed on failures at the federal level.

We should have a review of our whole educational system, from testing standards, to methods, to curriculum to teachers' pay, to teacher assessment, to funding. A willingness to examine vouchers is part of that, and I reject the idea that some methods are simply not up for discussion due to ideological considerations. I got a good education in a public school and one of the things my teachers drummed into me was critical thinking about new ideas - as opposed to reflexive condemnation of them.

Meantime, Obama has made extensive and specific commitments to improving education - raising teachers' pay, reducing the emphasis on testing and increasing that of coursework, broadening the curriculum, improving funding for school facilities to smooth out inequities from varying property tax across different districts, and providing annual funding for people to go to college in exchange for community service commitments. He makes it an important part of his speeches, and it's one of the reasons I support him.

If the man wants to take another look at the voucher issue, that's fine with me.

[ldf]

142. privatize...

i bet the halliburtons will be on that like.... well, like.. white on republican male voters.

:shrug:

maybe the public school system should be abolished.

all homeschooling.

we'd save LOTS of money that can then be funneled into the great war machine.

parents could then teach their precious spawn any damn thing they want.

AND babysit them, rather than using the public school system for just the purpose.

as a nation we are already shit in the crapper, what's wrong with "enhancing" our predicament?

i'm just sayin'...

[robbedvoter]

157. "if research shows Republicans steal elections, we may think of cleaning up the system'

That was a fictitious quote - to show you how idiotic is to talk about research - on an issue where REAL LIFE showed the entire country it's a disaster. Parents from both parties agree. Teachers too.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

196. Thank you for posting this..

Why on Earth would you oppose the statement 'If research shows vouchers work for kids I will support them' be controversial. Are we for helping kids or just throwing dollars at failing schools?

[PurityOfEssence]

10. And people wonder why Edwards hasn't endorsed him

Just what this world needs: more religion.

This last six weeks has been a disaster for the human race.

[BlackVelvet04]

88. He's said and done many things that would be

totally unacceptable to many of his supporters if said and done by a republican or another Democrat.

[jackson_dem]

136. Yup. Obama is more DLC than much of the DLC's official membership!

[jenmarie]

147. OMG!! YES!!

Imagine if Hillary had said this!!!

[BlackVelvet04]

148. I've listened to the guy....

I gave him a chance after Edwards dropped out but I think he's a fake.

[jillan]

188. omg - could you imagine?

unbelievable that true Dems think this is okay.

[onehandle]

11. I predict no great liberal age anytime soon.

Just more of the same.

[Occam Bandage]

12. If research shows they work. Research doesn't show they work.

[madfloridian]

13. Correction: charter schools is the DLC project. Also a form of privatization.

It is also a corporate agenda. Who do you suggest we vote for?

DLC is strong on Charter Schools, which bother me.

I believe the Rubin's Hamilton Project is for vouchers. Obama might be for that. The DLC is all for charter schools.

Charter schools are not required to keep students who don't perform, and they may be able to have agendas public schools can not have.

[carlotta]

21. Wrong!

Hillary is strongly opposed to vouchers. And she wants to do away with No Child Left Behind. Obama does not--he'll tweak it a little.

[pdxmom]

115. Umm...she has said she wants to do away with NCLB, but her website

actually doesn't say that. What she says is:

I believe that every child should be taught by a qualified teacher and that schools should be accountable to the parents of the children they serve. That is why I supported the No Child Left Behind Act in 2001 and continue to believe in the principles behind the landmark law...The President's budget leaves behind 2 million students who would receive after school services if the were funded at the level promised in the No Child Left Behind Act.

She likes the ideas behind NCLB, but because Bush doesn't fund it, it isn't working. But nowhere does she say she's going to do away with it...to me, it sounds like she wants to tweak it as well, and then just give it a new name.

[paulk]

23. no she doesn't

She is opposed to vouchers and always has been.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/265088/hillary_clinton_on_education.html

[brentspeak]

25. Wrong. This is something that Hillary can't be accused of

She is a corporate Democrat, but one thing she's not is a supporter of the Wall Street "let's privatize the public schools and make ourselves a ton of money" takeover/scam artists.

[dsc]

26. total, complete and utter falsehood

She has never, not one single solitary time, supported vouchers.

[MonkeyFunk]

38. Wrong

she has consistently spoken out against vouchers.

But why bother with facts when making shit up is so much easier?

[Maven]

89. I think with all the Obamaspeak entering the vernacular

we should call total falsehoods like the one you just posted "Obamalies."

[madfloridian]

95. I corrected it from vouchers to charter schools.

Now, all you have to do is go to www.dlc.org and do a search on charter schools.

I don't like vouchers, I don't like charter schools. Both are a step toward privatization.

Frankly neither of our choices are especially liberal. Neither was Dean in 2004. However, it comes down to who we choose to vote for.

I do not like the closeness of the Clintons and the Bushes. I don't not like the fact of the two for one. I do not like that the Clintons knew what the war was about and still supported it.

I made a choice for sure when Hillary went after Florida delegates.

[jackson_dem]

137. Rubin's Hamilton Project. Guess which hero of anti-DLC folks is affiliated with it...

[demo dutch]

170. Charter schools are a back door to privatization of the public school system

[jody]

14. More BO BS, "supporting private school vouchers if research shows they work." NO!

The issue is whether private school vouchers are more effective and efficient than public schools.

So far, that has not been proven.

If anyone has a credible report that proves otherwise I would like a link to it.

[goodgd_yall]

166. Right---what does "work" mean?

"Work" to allow parents to take their kids out of public school?

[bunnies]

19. "he is open to supporting private school vouchers if research shows they work"

so?!

[rodeodance]

28. metanalysis show its a washout--in the meantime these funds directed away form public education.

[Horse with no Name]

35. So are you even the slightest bit interested in the fact that MANY RW think tanks

have all the "research that shows they work" that anyone might need? They've had hardons to destroy the public school system for YEARS.
You have to ask the question...is Obama, in his quest for "bipartisanship" and "reaching across the aisle"...willing to use THAT research to make the case?
My answer is I don't know. But it IS a possibility and that should scare the SHIT out of ANYONE who pretends to be a liberal.

[ProgressIn2008]

110. Bingo - this is precisely why some of us can't swallow "bipartisanship"

What does it mean? Does it mean an Obama administration will take seriously RW think-tank data? Will split the difference between that propaganda and the truth? I don't know and neither does anyone else, and that is indeed scary shit.

[BlackVelvet04]

90. Lots of things work that aren't the right thing to do....

I don't want my money paying for religious schools PERIOD.

[MichiganVote]

27. Who's "research" genius?

[Neshanic]

29. Oh well...at least he starts off with the small flippy-floppys.

[Alexander]

32. Research shows vouchers don't work. So he'd be against them.

More BS from the Shillbot liars.

[ProSense]

39. "I will not allow my predispositions to stand in the way of making sure that our kids can learn,"

They prefer to ignore that part!

Glad he's not Bush!

[Alexander]

48. It reminds me of FDR's "If this doesn't work, we'll try something else."

This just shows open-mindedness on Obama's part, not a desire to push vouchers on us.

Strange how supposed progressives can bash someone for being open-minded.

[Horse with no Name]

50. Espousing EXTREME right wing views...YOU can fucking embrace THAT kind of open-mindedness

I'll take it out with the trash, right where it belongs.

[Alexander]

62. Looking at research is right-wing? You really love making shit up.

By the way, making shit up in ALL CAPS doesn't mean it's any more true.

:rofl:

[Horse with no Name]

64. The research has ALREADY been vetted and looked at. Vouchers do NOT work.

At least the research that is from fairly legit sources.
I guess Obama hasn't vetted the research from the RW think tanks who have been creaming in their panties for YEARS in order to get someone to implement their policy.
Don't come crying to this board when your hero lies down in bed with the uber RW zealots screaming you didn't know and had no idea...etc.
The proof is there...for those willing to see. You, however, are not.

[Alexander]

71. Dupe

You're so full of shit, I had to respond to your nonsense twice.

And the song that is your screen name completely sucks.

[Alexander]

Then he'd be against it. You're so delusional that you didn't even read the OP.

I think you need to lie down, the hallucinations must be getting to you.

"...Senator Obama said this week that he is open to supporting private school vouchers if research shows they work."

Gee, imagine that. A Democrat basing his opinion on research. :eyes:

He said exactly the same thing about medical marijuana. He's for that, because research shows it does work. This sounds almost exactly like his MMJ statement. There's no there there.

"I guess Obama hasn't vetted the research from the RW think tanks who have been creaming in their panties for YEARS in order to get someone to implement their policy."

A baseless assumption. If and when Obama trusts right-wing research, then I'll worry. But you can't provide any evidence that he has. Because no such evidence exists.

"Don't come crying to this board"

Crying? You're the one typing in ALL CAPS. You're the one shitting bricks because your candidate isn't winning. You're the one offering zero evidence for any of your assumptions.

No, the only crying, whining and lying is being done...by you and your fellow Shillbots. Keep hate alive!

"The proof is there...for those willing to see. You, however, are not."

If there's proof, you can show me. Otherwise take your tripe elsewhere and shut the fuck up. Your negative, constant whining and lying does your candidate no favors.

[Horse with no Name]

75. Keep drinking that Koolaid

Cause your willingness to buy into the scam is of amazing proportions.

[Alexander]

78. Keep posting your insane rantings with zero facts or evidence.

I source my claims. There's a name for people who don't.

Bullshit artist.

Which describes you perfectly.

[Horse with no Name]

83. You've sourced nothing

And you are a lot like your candidate--full of bullshit without substance. You can go the way of all of the other delusion worshippers.:hi:

[Alexander]

99. You made the allegations. The burden of proof is on YOU.

Apparently you can't back up a single ridiculous claim that you made.

Meaning you're full of shit.

Get out of your mom's basement already.

[anigbrowl]

72. I thought that was Truman, but excellent point. /nt

[Alexander]

80. "Try something, above all try something. If it doesn't work, try something else."

Truman may have said it too. It was a wise statement. :-)

[OzarkDem]

47. Then why is he still talking about them?

Does he want to keep trying them regardless of the research?

[Horse with no Name]

52. He is just courting the RW religious zealots who want this so they can shove God down everyone's

throat without the pesky Constitution getting in the way. He has adopted their codewords in order to reach out to them.
When the republicans got in bed with the religious nuts, it ruined their party.
Now someone in OUR party wants to do it and all of his supporters are singing Zippity Doo Da.

[OzarkDem]

56. We don't need them

there are plenty of sane voters left who want a change from the GOP. Very, very odd that Obama would feel the need to cater to these extremists. Maybe he has more in common with them than we know.

[QC]

91. He's really been up the fundamentalists' asses, hasn't he?

Funny how Bush's incessant godtalk was bad but Obama's is good.

[ProgressIn2008]

114. I'm starting to wonder - what *won't* be okay with them?

How far will Obama need to go with the religious and RW dogwhistles before his fans pull the ripcord?

[QC]

116. I don't think anything will finally push them away.

So far they seem willing to embrace anything he proposes.

[krabigirl]

135. totally agree!

[earth mom]

182. Obama is absolutely courting the fundies! It is disgusting!!!

They did a short bit about the Obama cult on Nightline the other night and it was GLARINGLY obvious what his m.o. is because every other word out of Obama's mouth was "pray". :puke:

[OzarkDem]

33. Bad idea, we know they don't work

and we also know they're incredibly expensive. Religion belongs in the home, church or private schools, not in public schools w/ public funding.

This is what worries me most about Obama, his love of failed GOP policy.

[FrenchieCat]

34. mydd is fast becoming a source that I don't use......

"I will not allow my predispositions to stand in the way of making sure that our kids can learn," --Barack Obama

THAT MEANS THAT HE IS PREDISPOSITIONED NOT TO SUPPORT VOUCHERS.

HOWEVER, HE IS OPEN AND WILLING TO LISTEN......

SHOW HIM SOME DOCUMENTED PROOF TO ILLUSTRATE THE OTHER POINT OF VIEW. HE'LL LOOK AT IT.

THAT IS ALL.


That is a Liberal person talking, Tom. A real one.

Remember this?
We live in a liberal democracy....That’s what we created in this country. I think we should be very clear on this. You know, this country was founded on the principles of the Enlightenment... It was the idea that people could talk, reason, have dialogue, discuss the issues. It wasn't founded on the idea that someone would get struck by a divine inspiration and know everything right from wrong. I mean, people who founded this country had religion, they had strong beliefs, but they believed in reason, in dialogue, in civil discourse. We can’t lose that in this country. We've got to get it back.



If that's not clear to you Tom, then I guess that I cannot help you. :shrug:

[brentspeak]

40. But he IS "predispositioned" to be listen to corporate lobbyists peddling school privatization scams

That much is clear to me.

[sandnsea]

45. Corporations spend a bundle on our schools

Did you know that? They give money for computers, school supplies, art, sports, music. Local businesses are also huge supporters of schools, from providing career internships to booster clubs. If you want their money, you have to be respectful enough to listen to their ideas.

[brentspeak]

162. "Local businesses" are not "corporations"

Meanwhile, Obama is working for the venture capitalist crowd that's pining to make a fortune via our public schools.

[robbedvoter]

201. So, DON'T TAKE THEIR MONEY - AND DON'T LISTEN TO THEM! NO CORPORATION

should have a say in our kids education! We pay taxes! Take some away from "spreading democracy" and put it in our schools. And keep corporations the hell away!
Ah, the good ol' days when "D" on DU was standing for "Democrat"

[barb162]

195. It's clear to me too. n/t

[Cha]

42. Thanks Frenchy, I was looking

for someone to post someone to post some sanity on this thread..it's like they're looking for crumbs..it's the Hansel and Gretel politics of hilaryland.

Obama is all about Education and that doesn't mean abandoning Public Schools..but, of course, all the hand wringing on this thread is about ways to tear Obama down and build up the inevitable one.

[Tom Rinaldo]

44. You don't have to be snide with me Frenchie

or maybe you think you do have to be, but I never am snide with you. This is a valid topic for discussion. Many Democrats believe that school vouchers are and should remain a clear line in the sand that should not be crossed regarding privatization. You know that. If you want to proclaim the advantages of a liberal democracy then don't jump down the throat of someone who raises a legitimate topic for discussion and dialog:

"...It was the idea that people could talk, reason, have dialogue, discuss the issues."

"Documented proof" is a standard on less solid ground than the theory of evolution that Huckabee doesn't believe in. There is always "documented proof" of one kind or another being turned out by Right Wing think tanks to justify privatizing everything under the sun.

Many Democrats hold some things to be self evident, and the reasons to oppose school vouchers is one of them. They may be right, they may be wrong, but it is something that can be discussed by fair minded individuals. There is "documented proof" in favor of the Death penelty also, and in favor of strict drug laws for fighting crime. There is "documented proof" that capitalism is the most efficient way to operate everything; including prisons and armies. There is "documented proof" that huge tax breaks for large corporations stimulate the economy and "provide jobs" also.

[grantcart]

216. I think you may be the only person in here in which I have completely agreed with

Which if I were you would really make me worry.

I wonder how I(or any of these others) would feel if I lived in a place like Compton

where the school system has literally collapsed and the local political leadership is being investigated and the Sheriff had to come in and take over the police service.

I suppose waiting another 20 years for something to happen might look good on paper. If I lived in Compton and a voucher was the only way to get my kid out of that misery I think I would be predisposed to take it.

Here is where he is a real liberal because he has actually been working in those types of neighborhoods for the last 20 years while the rest of us liberals read about it.

That is why I value his community service over 2 full terms in the Senate - its not theoretical. Since he is going to be our leader it might be interesting to actually let him lead us. We can always slam him after he makes a mistake, which he has already admitted he will do.

[K Gardner]

41. Why can't we have a president who is dogmatic, unmoveable, NOT open to new ideas, NOT open

to change, thinks one position is the ONLY position, NOT open to compromise.. oh, wait.. we have one of those !!

People, wake up. Gads, you get some "ideal" in your mind and refuse to even be open to alternatives, and parse them in the most abrasive and partisan terms to prove your point. You're not doing anyone any favors.

No wonder half the "dems" on this board don't even KNOW what real universal healthcare is.

[carlotta]

43. There are plenty of areas where one can compromise, but

No Democrat should compromise on one of our most important Democratic tenets--that of always supporting Public Education. Any voucher system weakens the public schools, diverts money and resources and will ultimately destroy the system. That's what the Republicans want.

Maybe Obama learned this from his Senate mentor Joe Lieberman who supports vouchers.

[K Gardner]

46. This whole thread is a knee jerk reaction to something that wasn't even said. Its just sad.

[Horse with no Name]

49. What is even sadder is the level of denial that obamamites

will stoop to when EVIDENCE is presented that he doesn't care about some of the social contracts in this country.
Privatization has ruined just about everything GOOD in this country...and you applaud his decision to think about privatizing PUBLIC education.
It is sickening...it really is. And by the way...MOST of the DEMOCRATS on this board understand what Universal Healthcare is, and is not. Universal means ALL.
It is not some.
It means all.
I find it especially disconcerting when people who previously supported John Edwards and his vision for this country embrace these kinds of word games.
Whatever rocks your socks, K.
But you are wrong on the vouchers and you are wrong on the knowledge assessment of Universal Healthcare.

[readmoreoften]

55. That's why they scare me. They are as irrational and deluded as Bush voters.

If Obama said schools ought to teach creationism as well as evolution, they'd say it was change. It's not Obama that's the problem. It's the lack of critical thinking. People think they're progressive because the word sounds nice. They think it means "going forward" and any ol' 'forward' will do. Not all Obama supporters, mind you, but too many of them for my comfort.

[anigbrowl]

70. Denial nothing. We just have a different attitude from you.

but by all means continue with your depersonalization and demonization of those whose politics you don't share. 'Obamamites'...hehe.

[K Gardner]

87. There you go again, putting words in people's mouths. I never advocated

vouchers. Point to the place where I did, for fuck's sake. I advocated people halting the attacks before they HEAR what is or isn't being proposed, I advocated open-mindedness and..

yanno what. Not worth the time to type. I wonder if some people here even read or comprehend. Have a nice night. Or not. It really doesn't make a flip to me anymore. I'm sorry the fact that I supported Edwards and now support Obama upsets you so. Get over it. Or not.

When people start working together for change and working to build a coalition, SOME people will be over here on what will then be the equivalanet of FR, bitching and complaining and moaning and attacking. Enjoy that. I'll be working.

[Horse with no Name]

93. We all read and comprehend just fine but thanks for your "concern"

The problem is, we are willing to point inconsistencies in the Democratic platform that we INSIST on in YOUR candidates platform and I have done the same with Hillary.
I do NOT have a candidate but I could care less about your sell-out to Edwards. That is your cross to bear, not mine.
I will do my work locally as I have ALWAYS done, but tell you what, when your candidate shows his true colors, I promise not to say I told you so.
Those "some people" that will turn this place into FR will be ones that you are well-acquainted with. Your fellow obamites when he sells you all out for his political benefit.

[rodeodance]

219. As usual very few engaging in the issue--just more dissing/denial/ ect.

[readmoreoften]

53. What are you 12? It's a well-known and established fact that charter schools do poorly.

The only people who like them are religious fundamentalists who want tax dollars to pay for their children's specialized, religious educations. This isn't a NEW idea. This is an idea that's been failing for over a decade now. The only research that would show that it isn't is slanted, right-wing FOX NEWS crap. You know, when someone brings up one of Hillary's bad ideas, the Hillary supporters avoid the issue. You Obama people are so out-of-your-mind delusional about your candidate that you fight for THE RIGHT WING POSITION whenever he stumbles upon it.

[Greyskye]

63. charter does not necessarily equal private or vouchers

Some states have done it right. In California, Charter schools ARE public schools, DO have to have state accredited teachers, and DO have to teach to state standards.

Other states have 'charter' schools which are absolutely guilty of the charges you make.

But please, PLEASE, recognize that not all 'charter' schools can be tarred with the same broad brush that you are using.

Thanks! :hi:

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[readmoreoften]

101. You know what? Fuck it. You're not worth it. Delete.

Another Obamacan on ignore.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

51. Why the Teachers Union backed Clinton...Obama agrees with Bush on education including NCLB

[557188]

59. No candidate that supports vouchers will get my vote in November

Or those even open to the idea of vouchers.

This is one of my core issues of fighting against.

[Cameron27]

60. Damn

[calmblueocean]

61. "You think vouchers work? Prove it. Then we'll talk." A smooth way to win some R's and I's.

I'm not terribly worried about it. It's pretty clear to me that this is Obama's way of snagging some more moderate Republican and Independent voters, and at the same time, challenging those who support vouchers to prove that they work or go home. Smart politics, from my perspective.

[carlotta]

66. You should be worried

This is how Obama works--he takes a stand, and rather than stick with it, he folds.

Take this example from his time in the Illinois senate when he proposed legislation after worries about nuclear leaks:

A close look at the path his legislation took tells a very different story. While he initially fought to advance his bill, even holding up a presidential nomination to try to force a hearing on it, Mr. Obama eventually rewrote it to reflect changes sought by Senate Republicans, Exelon and nuclear regulators. The new bill removed language mandating prompt reporting and simply offered guidance to regulators, whom it charged with addressing the issue of unreported leaks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/03/us/politics/03exelon.html?hp

This is what you're gonna get, kids.

[calmblueocean]

105. Read that. Have you read this?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/03/AR2008010303303.html

Consider a bill into which Obama clearly put his heart and soul. The problem he wanted to address was that too many confessions, rather than being voluntary, were coerced -- by beating the daylights out of the accused.

Obama proposed requiring that interrogations and confessions be videotaped.

This seemed likely to stop the beatings, but the bill itself aroused immediate opposition. There were Republicans who were automatically tough on crime and Democrats who feared being thought soft on crime. There were death penalty abolitionists, some of whom worried that Obama's bill, by preventing the execution of innocents, would deprive them of their best argument. Vigorous opposition came from the police, too many of whom had become accustomed to using muscle to "solve" crimes. And the incoming governor, Rod Blagojevich, announced that he was against it.

Obama had his work cut out for him.

He responded with an all-out campaign of cajolery. ... The police proved to be Obama's toughest opponent. Legislators tend to quail when cops say things like, "This means we won't be able to protect your children." The police tried to limit the videotaping to confessions, but Obama, knowing that the beatings were most likely to occur during questioning, fought -- successfully -- to keep interrogations included in the required videotaping.

By showing officers that he shared many of their concerns, even going so far as to help pass other legislation they wanted, he was able to quiet the fears of many.

Obama proved persuasive enough that the bill passed both houses of the legislature, the Senate by an incredible 35 to 0. Then he talked Blagojevich into signing the bill, making Illinois the first state to require such videotaping.

Regarding your link, with respect, I think the author of that piece missed the real story in Obama's work on regulating the nuclear industry. It largely revolves around this sentence near the end: "The revised bill was never taken up in the full Senate, where partisan parliamentary maneuvering resulted in a number of bills being shelved before the 2006 session ended." Obama, while threatening the nuclear industry with regulatory legislation, was in essence pointing an unloaded gun. The bill, because of the makeup of the Senate at the time, was being blocked in committee. Had Obama not revised the bill, it would've been clear that it was moribund. But by revising the bill, there began to seem to the nuclear industry a chance that the legislation might indeed make it to a vote. This threat induced the industry to begin voluntary reporting, even though the bill was actually locked into place by Republicans. The story here was not one of capitulation, but of how smart moves enabled Obama to achieve at least part of his goal, even when he was being shut out.

I'm under no illusions about Obama; he's a moderate and a pragmatist, not a progressive. But Kucinich didn't catch fire this year, and Obama is sparking a prairie fire of young people who will, indeed, grow into progressives. Hillary isn't. All in all, I'm happy with Obama as the Democratic nominee, if he gets it. We could've done a lot worse.

[nonconformist]

67. This is what happens when someone wants to negotiate and compromise with the right wing

And people wonder why we question his "progressive" credentials.

[Tatiana]

69. He is not going to privitize public education.

That will never happen. He didn't try to do that in Illinois, and actually, what he did here was expand public education opportunities (Head Start, Preschool for All, After-school learning centers).

[Maribelle]

73. One of the key reasons I chose Hillary over Obama - his weak stand on Public Education

Our children deserve more than this. Obama's backward stance on this vital issue is truly sad. In school district after school district, republicans are attempting to dismantle public education brick by brick - - and vouchers are their biggest bulldozer.

[demo dutch]

173. Reason why NEA and AFT have endorsed Clinton. The undoing of public schools

will be the undoing of this country, because Public education is the cornerstone of this nation. The other backdoor to privatization is charters. All in all hey have made huge strides in the destruction of the system over the last 20yrs. People have no idea!

[jasmine621]

74. People had better wake up soon to this Obama mania. ..before it's

too late. I see a floundering President who will throw himself into the waiting arms of the Republican-neoconservative-RW-funddie arms.

[elizm]

76. "If research shows they work"....operative words here.

They don't work. And I am a public school teacher of 27 years. I like the fact that Obama is open to ideas and will consider whatever is needed to improve public education. But I also trust him in that I believe he will use good judgment in determining what is worth trying and what is not.

[stillcool]

77. Where does it say...

that he said anything about vouchers?

[Tom Rinaldo]

85. Here is the more complete story that confirms it

Obama Open to Private School Vouchers
By ELIZABETH GREEN
Staff Reporter of the Sun
February 15, 2008 updated 2/16/08 10:21 am EST

Senator Obama said this week that he is open to supporting private school vouchers if research shows they work...


...When Mr. Obama filled out questionnaires for both national teachers unions last year, the American Federation of Teachers and the National Education Association, he told the unions that he did not support vouchers. But on Wednesday Mr. Obama opened his remarks to the Journal-Sentinel's question on vouchers by saying he had to admit that he has been a "skeptic" of vouchers.

He said he was astonished to learn that a voucher program in Milwaukee had never been tested in a longitudinal study to find out whether it had helped children or not. "If there was any argument for vouchers it was, all right, let's see if this experiment works, and then if it does, whatever my preconceptions, my attitude is you do what works for the kids," Mr. Obama said.

Told a current longitudinal study is ongoing, Mr. Obama said he would respond to its findings with an open mind.

The executive director of the lobbying group Democrats for Education Reform, Joseph Williams, said the response was unusual for a Democratic politician, praising Mr. Obama for making his bottom line helping children learn rather than ideology."
http://www.nysun.com/article/71403

[stillcool]

118. don't you think that's reaching?

just a tad? Damn. If you're looking for a nail to put in the coffin you need something a little sharper.

If there was any argument for vouchers it was, all right, let's see if this experiment works, and then if it does, whatever my preconceptions, my attitude is you do what works for the kids," Mr. Obama said.

[Tom Rinaldo]

121. No. You asked me where Obama said anything about Vouchers

and I showed you where. I also left a link to his campaingn's own clarification about his comments below. Obama supposedly talked on this subject for six minutes, there are multiple quotes we all can ponder the implications of from vasrious angles.

We all know that there are many groups strongly in support of school vouchers who already claim to have clear evidence that "the experiment works". This is not a new issue in America, it has been debated now for decades. It mostly becomes a matter of what "evidence" one is willing to accept in either direction at this point.

You know there are those who believe that progressive income taxes have been proved to hurt the economy by unfairly penalizing the creativity of those who innovate in our society, by reducing their motivation to profit from their own creativity. That in turn is argued cuts off new job creation and ultimately hurts the poor. Most Democrats happen to firmly believe in progressive taxation and most Democrats also strongly believe that school voucher programs undermine the viability of quality public education. It is all of course a matter of opinion but on some matters Democrats and Republicans tend to have deeply rooted and strongly differing opinions.

[Joanne98]

81. No! That's not true!

[Abacus]

82. I think your subject line is an exceptional stretch,

but here's a video of the interview; you can draw your own conclusions.
http://www.myfoxmilwaukee.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=5802837&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=3.2.1

[BlackVelvet04]

84. And so it starts....

it's just the beginning folks.

[Straight Shooter]

96. And it will end with Obama nominating "moderates" for the Supreme Court.

Appeasement.

[FrenchieCat]

97. No...the Gotcha has been going on for some time......

Call it Old time Gotcha POlitics.....just like what was done with the Reagan Bullshit. This is just more of the same.

The debates are tomorrow, and hopefully, the Hillary supporters will have new material by then. :eyes:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

94. He totally wants to bomb Pakistan too.

:eyes:

[readmoreoften]

104. I'm sure he doesn't "want" to. But he's admitted to planning for it.

Why can't you just we honest about your candidate instead of turning him into someone he's not? I mean, that's the question we're all asking.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

109. I don't understand what you mean. I was being sarcastic.

I'm tired of seeing people trying to turn Obama into something he isn't. It's particularly galling coming from progressives. At various times on this board Barack Obama has been portrayed as anti-choice, homophobic, and a Reagan lover, among other things. Now he wants to dismantle the public school system (the gist of some of the posts on this thread) because he made a thoughtful comment about vouchers.

[readmoreoften]

152. I don't see how his comment on vouchers is thoughtful.

Since we don't have much info on Obama every statement he makes will be scrutinized. It's only natural. If he voices opinions or "thoughtful comments" that point to the conservative camp, there will be a strong reaction. The anti-choice accusations are wrong given the context. I've never seen anyone say Obama himself was homophobic, only that he pandered to those who are. His comments about Reagan were somewhat insulting to the party. Regarding vouchers, the progressive opinion is to keep tax dollars in the public school system. The conservative position is vouchers. This has been studied for almost a decade. The verdict has long been that vouchers rob the tax base, create a poor educational climate, and shuffle money to religious groups as a backhanded 'faith-based funding.' There is nothing to be 'thoughtful' about here really.

Privatization of public services is a traditional Republican position. If he is going to make comments that point to him considering taking a traditional Republican position on an issue, you can bet there will be backlash from progressives and rightfully so.

[Tom Rinaldo]

98. OK, I tracked down a statement from the Obama campaign about this

Here is part of it (I would include more but I couldn't "copy" off this web page and so had to type this in myself):

"There have been misleading reports that Senator Obama voiced support for voucher programs in an interview with the editorial board of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. Senator Obama has always been a critic of vouchers, and expressed his longstanding skepticism in that interview..."

Here is a link to all of it:
http://www2.edweek.org/media/obama_vouchers_response.pdf


Here is an analysis of Obama's clarification of his comments made by an organization that supports school reforms that might include school vouchers:

"Obama's Damage Control on Vouchers
Barack Obama dared to declare that he might be open to vouchers if there's evidence to back up this controversial education reform effort and, more importantly, if it's what's "best for kids."

Imagine that—a presidential hopeful being in favor of a program if there's research to support it, and if it helps kids!

Well, now the Obama campaign is in damage-control mode because vouchers are one of the most polarizing issues in education reform, and fiercely opposed by the teachers' unions. After all, the National Education Association's endorsement is still up for grabs.

Obama's campaign sent Education Week this statement, offering a different interpretation of Obama's interview last week with the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel. According to the campaign, Obama "repeated his longstanding opposition to vouchers." Not quite. What Obama did was give a six-minute, thoughtful response indicating he was a skeptic of vouchers, but that he might change his mind if there was research to back it up..."
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/campaign-k-12/2008/02/obamas_damage_control_on_vouch.html

[calmblueocean]

113. You've gotta love Hil's response on the vouchers issue

She "claims they could be used to fund training grounds for 'jihad'"!

Hillary still makes me smile. She's a hell of a politician. Hard for a right winger to argue with *that* line! I'll have to remember it.

[Sybbis]

100. Open to it? It was settled YEARS ago...

What the fuck is wrong with Barack Obama on this issue? Every Democrat worth a damn knows that vouchers have already proven a failure. They divert money away from public schools in desperate need. THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT THIS. Ted Kennedy needs to bitchslap that young man, pronto.

Is this guy another let's wait for the "Committee on How to Set Up a Committee" to report back to us before we really get into discussing this issue? That's George W. Bush country, he's been slagging us off with that shit for years.

Is he simply (and cynically) pandering to Republicans? Yeah, that's CHANGE!

Edit: typo

[BlackVelvet04]

103. At best

"moderates".

[KaptBunnyPants]

106. I'd support them if research showed they work too.

Isn't that kind of like saying "I'd smoke crack if it was good for you"?

[DURHAM D]

107. Once again Obama's positions raise the question?

Is he a Democrat?

[ulysses]

111. you're reaching with the subject line.

Still, it's not as if the jury is still out of stupid fucking vouchers.

[Tom Rinaldo]

112. It was the subject line of this Newspaper story

That was quoted by the Mydd Diary and I (openly) quoted the Mydd Diary in my OP.

http://www.nysun.com/article/71403

[MoonRiver]

119. OBAMA THE DINO!

:thumbsdown: SUCKERS

[pdxmom]

120. So let's look at what the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel actually reported:

Waukesha - Democratic presidential hopeful Barack Obama said Wednesday that he is skeptical of private school voucher programs, such as the one in Milwaukee, but added if studies prove the programs are successful, "you do what's best for kids."

<snip>

School choice: Obama said he has been a strong supporter of charter schools "as a way to foster competition in the public school system."

He pronounced himself a skeptic of private school vouchers, saying: "My view is you're not going to generate the supply of high-quality schools to meet the demand."

Obama said he was surprised to learn from Gov. Jim Doyle that "there was no assessment process" for the Milwaukee program but indicated he might be open to supporting voucher programs if studies show they work.

"If there was any argument for vouchers, it was 'Let's see if the experiment works,' " Obama said. "And if it does, whatever my preconception, you do what's best for kids."

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=718193

So mydd has a story taken from the New York Sun, who seems to have taken it from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel, and it appears that the Sun took a little liberty with the quote. The actual article I found in the Journal-Sentinel presents his statements in a totally different light.

[Tom Rinaldo]

123. I already tracked down a link to the Obama campaigns own response

to questions about that interview, and I posted it above for any who want to read it. I am in favor of honestly looking at what is said by our candidates for President, and always providing as much real context as possible.

After chasing down links tonight I agree with you that the Sentinel story may present this discussion in a different light, but far from a totally different light. That's my opinion anyway.

[pdxmom]

127. The way I was reading it was that Obama was trying to respond without

offending. I know nothing about the education system in Milwaukee, but from that article, it appears that they have a voucher system in place. If you're running for the nomination in that state, in a tight race, you don't slam the school system in that city. He couldn't just say "Vouchers suck and you guys are fools for having them." He says he's skeptical, but that he would look at research. I think it's a very diplomatic response to make and it looks to me like the Sun story was pretty misleading.

[TheDonkey]

126. Wow, a completely intellegent response to school vouchers. SO OUTRAGEOUS!!!

[cd3dem]

122. His kids are in Private School... what else is new?

[BootinUp]

124. Is there any issue that Obama is to the left of Hillary on?

He is running for a mandate to be DLC in an era when we can do much better. :(

[Renew Deal]

131. That's about as confusing an argument as there is.

Aren't you a Hillary supporter? She's the princess of the DLC. What am I missing?

[QC]

132. Is he to the left of Lieberman on anything? n/t

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

125. Doesn't my favorite liberal state Vermont have a system of vouchers?

I think I have heard that it works great. Any Vermonters like to comment?

[UALRBSofL]

129. You can always google Reagan and vouchers

and find how it worked for him. Also, I don't think many progressives want to give there money away to private schools when there kids go to public schools. We pay tax for public schools and I don't think tax dollars should go to a private school that is promoting the so called "privileged kids". All kids are the same and should not be given favoritism to family's with a higher income.

[Renew Deal]

128. I'm glad to see Obama is willing to put kids in front of dogma

This what people have been voting for. Very powerful.

[Tom Rinaldo]

138. The Republicans say they are willing to put kids in front of dogma too

but it is always Democratic dogma that they want to over turn; for the kids, for the poor, for the fill in the blank...

In many ways Barack Obama is headed down the path Bill Clinton trail blazed in 1992. Sometimes the irony of this race overwhelms me.

[Renew Deal]

139. The dishonesty overwhelms you.

Your subject line does not reflect the story.

[Tom Rinaldo]

141. My subject line WAS the story's subject line

And I said so immediately in my OP.

[Jamastiene]

130. Oh, NOW, he decides to unleash his Republican stances

on issues. Saw it coming. Told people so.

[Iceburg]

133. Let's just skip the middleman & home school all the children, Obama /nt

[Horse with no Name]

144. Actually I have some pretty dandy books to do just that

I gathered them in case of this happening during a republican presidency.
Never thought I would even have to contemplate them during a Democratic presidency.:(

[krabigirl]

134. I truly hope this is not the case. This is terrible!!

[jackson_dem]

140. "Open". This is Obama's MO. Read his book

He likes to be as vague as possible so he can give as much possible for folks on all sides of an argument to cling onto if they want to "hope" he is what they "believe" he is. He is a political Rorschach test. The only times he takes clear stands are on Democratic boilerplate. There is a reason rethugs vote for him by more than 40 points...

[BootinUp]

154. yep. nt

[Iceburg]

143. Boils down to: Public(not for profit) versus For Profit Education; Obama leans to the latter

just as he does on health care.

[Sybbis]

145. Public education is a core Democratic principle...

CORE. DEMOCRATIC. PRINCIPLE.

Vouchers are wrong - they don't work for schools, they don't work for kids (other than in Reaganesque anecdotes). They take funds away from public schools, many already in dire straits. This doesn't show me that Obama's some kind of "new, brige-building Democrat" it shows me that he's willing to betray one of the few core Democratic principles we have left. Same with Health Care. Same with Social Security. Same with what else? We don't even know yet.

That's right, kids, it's time to get off of the peace, love and togetherness bus. We do not want unity on these issues. We do not want to build Privatization Bridge with the Republicans. We do not want to sit down and endlessly discuss the Great and Glorious Republican Plan for America. We've seen their plans for years and they are damaging to most Americans. What the hell, people? The answer is NO.

[Tom Rinaldo]

146. One of my favorite Wes Clark quotes:

"Somebody once told me in business that when you're going to negotiate a business deal, you stake out (Clark SLAMS the table) your position and stand on it! Don't go in there and ask what they want. Say, `Here's what I want!' (SLAMS table again).

"You've got a Republican Party under Gingrich and Tom DeLay that says, `Here's what I want' (SLAMS table again). "Then you've got the Democrats over here saying, `Yeah, ah, yeah, we could, some of what you say makes pretty good sense.

"The result is the American people don't see the full spectrum. Before the 2002 election there were a lot of Democratic politicians apparently who said, `I don't have the information. I can't battle with the president on the information. He's got the intelligence. What if there is a smoking gun in there? I can't fight the president in my congressional district.'

"What we've got to do is stake (SLAMS table again) out our position. For instance on tax reform, stop (SLAM) saying (SLAM) you agree with simplification of the tax code. . . . We stand (SLAM) for progressive taxation. We're proud of it. If you make more, you should pay more, period!"

[Sybbis]

150. That's a really good quote...

I can just see him slamming the table! He's right. We cannot back down on core issues that really matter in the name of "unity" or "hope" or whatever the word du jour is lately. We can't do it just to make ourselves look friendly to Republicans, either. That's "unity" we can't afford and the General's absolutely correct. It's an amateur's bargaining position to boot.

John Edwards was right too. The Republicans aren't in the "Giving Ground" business. We'll have to fight them and take it. Being "open" to privatization schemes on Social Security and Public Education along with making Health Care a choice rather than the right of every American is no way to run as a Democrat.

[bridgit]

151. "if research shows they work", that data has been well massaged: No Bush Left Behind

Obama seems to be hedging a bet somewhere, as vouchers have been very good for the Bush Family, their friends, and 'faith based' programs

No Bush Left Behind - The President's brother Neil is making hay from school reform

'Across the country, some teachers complain that President George W. Bush's makeover of public education promotes "teaching to the test." The President's younger brother Neil takes a different tack: He's selling to the test. The No Child Left Behind Act compels schools to prove students' mastery of certain facts by means of standardized exams. Pressure to perform has energized the $1.9 billion-a-year instructional software industry.' http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_42/b4005059.htm

Former first lady's donation aids son - Katrina funds earmarked to pay for Neil Bush's software program

The gift that keeps on giving - ABOUT IGNITE LEARNING

'Former first lady Barbara Bush donated an undisclosed amount of money to the Bush-Clinton Katrina Fund with specific instructions that the money be spent with an educational software company owned by her son Neil.

Since then, the Ignite Learning program has been given to eight area schools that took in substantial numbers of Hurricane Katrina evacuees.

"Mrs. Bush wanted to do something specifically for education and specifically for the thousands of students flooding into the Houston schools," said Jean Becker, former President Bush's chief of staff. "She knew that HISD was using this software program, and she's very excited about this program, so she wanted to make it possible for them to expand the use of this program."' http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/3742329.html

I would, that Obama would have been a bit more definitive, a bit less accommodating toward privateers. As he seems to have sent a signal to people that have been gaming the educational system via privatization for some time.

[HuffleClaw]

153. that is a pretty big 'IF'

hillary-style waffling !

[Enrique]

155. not correct to say he is open to privitizing

that vouchers constitute privitizing is your opinion. You might be right, but Obama did not say he is open to privitizing. He said he's open to vouchers.

[robbedvoter]

156. He must be the only one left in US not to know what a disaster those are

This is one issue that rallies people of all political spectrum. parents that is, as opposed to profiteers.

[Tatiana]

158. Interesting to note that neither candidate has secured the endorsement of the largest teachers union

Valuable NEA Political Endorsement Remains Up for Grabs
Democratic presidential candidates have yet to make their case for support from America ’s public school employees

WASHINGTON — Political leaders and advocacy organizations are stumbling all over themselves to declare their choice to carry the Democratic standard in the presidential contest this fall. With the failure of Super Tuesday to define a clear-cut favorite for the Party's nomination however, the most valuable, and perhaps the most important, endorsement remains unclaimed by either Sen. Barack Obama or Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton.

The 3.2 million-member National Education Association, the nation's largest labor organization as well as the nation's largest professional association, remains on the sidelines in the competition for endorsements by the two remaining Democratic presidential candidates.

According to NEA President Reg Weaver, neither Obama nor Clinton has made the case that would earn them the Association's recommendation. "There have been dozens of debates but less than a handful of questions about the future role of the federal government in public education," says Weaver.

"Both Democratic candidates have strong records on education, but our members want to know about their visions and their plans for the future, and we haven't really heard that yet. If they haven't made education a central part of their campaigns, how can we feel confident that they will make education a central part of their administration?"

(more...)

http://www.nea.org/newsreleases/2008/nr080206.html

[LWolf]

159. Yet another of the many reasons why

Obama will never get my vote.

What kind of "Democrat" supports privatization?

Not the kind of Democrat I want leading the party or the nation, that's for sure.

:banghead:

[LizW]

160. Well, Obama reached my line in the sand

No. No. No.

No charter schools. No for profit education schemes. No vouchers.

As the poster upthread said, public education is a Core Democratic Principle.

His campaign needs to address this today.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

161. if the research shows they work conclusively

wouldn't it be irresponsible not to do it?

I think vouchers mights work in certain instances(districts), but probably not nationwide. I think it's worth investigating at least...

[brentspeak]

165. There is no research that shows any such thing

There are, however, Wall Street-funded propaganda "studies" which do. See under: The Hamilton Project.

[demo dutch]

168. It's a back door to get rid of public education, which is the cornerstone of this

nation. Jeb Bush has tried to destroy Public education in Florida in much the same way. It was found unconstitutional, but he neverthe less pushed the envelope. He even started a foundation when he got out of office. Please if Jeb Bush and GWB advovate vouchers you know it should send a signal for a red flag!

[sabbat hunter]

163. The quote

comes out of the NY Sun, which is a far right wing rag of a paper. It would not surprise me at all to learn that they misquoted him or took it out of context to completely discredit him and hope to take wind out of his sails with progressives/liberals.

[Tom Rinaldo]

177. Obama's campaign acknowledges the quote

There was a long similar story about this interview in the Milwaukee Sentinel also. I posted a link to the Obama campaign clarification above. They claim that the quotes have been used by some to misrepresent his intent.

[demo dutch]

167. The reason why the NEA and AFT have endorsed Clinton! because they get fucked over in every election

[Khaotic]

174. Chill People

Obama is saying he's open to talking about it.

That's light years away from agreeing with it.

If he's like me, and I believe he is on this, he knows that vouchers are a joke, he knows why he believes they're a joke, but he's willing to hear people out on why they think vouchers are the answer.

That's it.

Bottomline, he believes in scraping No Child Left Behind and paying teachers what they're worth. I believe he'll advance the career field of teaching so that our high school graduates are attracted to the career field again and will pursue it through college.

Right now teachers get paid so little why would any high school graduate pursue the career field and get a college degree just to turn around and only make $28K/yr. starting. It's a joke.

Teachers are molding the leaders of tomorrow, they should make as much as the doctors healing the wounds of today.

The reason why doctors get more is because their career field takes a lot smarter person and a lot more of an investment of their time be in that career field, but if we raise the bar a LOT higher in achieving the education related to teaching, then teachers should be paid more.

Better educated teachers, more pay, ... should equal better education for our children.

That are other problems like the censored text books and history rewrites, shitty school lunches, etc., etc.

I think Obama would be a lot better bet on going head to head w/ those issues than DLC-Lando Hillary.

No worries, Obama won't be privatizing public schools. In reality, those words might only get him some additional Libritarian votes, but it will never happen on Obama's watch. You can take that to the bank.

[jillan]

186. Reminds me of Lieberman in 2000. He was pushing for vouchers.

[xmas74]

194. Which is why my best friend,

her mother, her father, her brother, her sister and her stepfather-all teachers/professors-voted for HRC.

She said this sounded too Repub for her tastes.

[robbedvoter]

202. Right you are! The faith based thingy - no child left behind= we'll rapture them all

and use schools to make them saintly enough for rapture - whether you like it or not

[michaz]

187. There are many good private schools out there.

Many of the public schools are having many problems and the kids in them are horrendous. I have seen for myself what private schools with smaller classes and well behaved kids can accomplish. Not all public schools are a good thing!

[DuaneBidoux]

190. He should be open if they work--but they don't (research has shown that)

[Emillereid]

191. Senator Obama said this week that he is open to supporting private school vouchers if research shows

they work. Since research indicates they don't work any better Obama is off the hook. But I agree with him that the needs of the children should trump ideology. I would prefer public schools - but if they keep failing so many children, then we have to search for other solutions. Personally I think the biggest difference between public schools that work and those that don't is parent involvement. I have always thought that the real solution would be to mandate parent education.

[LizW]

193. I think the biggest difference

between public schools that work and those that don't is adequate and equitable funding.

[Creideiki]

192. Makes my decision to leave education an even better one

Hey, I've got a master's degree. Why would I submit to the NCLB-level of abuse?

[robbedvoter]

203. My best friend - also a master and gifted teacher- did the same 2 years ago

for the very same reason. This is someone who could reach out to the most problematic student and get him/her to want to learn, but got crushed by the NCLB red tape.

[xmzx]

199. ...

McCain to the Republican party is Obama of the Democratic party. Both are pretty moderate. People will never realize this because they're simply blinded by his wit, seeming to be a nice guy, and the Democratic label he has.

[AllieB]

217. McCain is no moderate. He gets an 85% approval rating among conservatives.

Stop believing the mainstream media.

[NastyRiffraff]

200. Oh my god, I'm not believing this came out of the mouth of a Democrat!

Where the hell has this guy been? Study after study has shown either no significant difference in student performance in charter schools or downgraded performance.

That's charters. Let's talk about vouchers. This is a Republican idea to do away with the public school system. They've made no secret of this. What happens with vouchers? They bleed money from public schools...that's the point of the program. No Democratic candidate should be even "open" to discussion about this thing. Every voucher given out means that much money taken out of the public school system. The Republicans know this very well; why doesn't Obama?

I agree with Obama that "something has to be done;" I don't know of a single person who disagrees with that. A lot has to be done about our public school system, including equalization of moneys that go into them. And yes, accountability, once they're funded. Privatization will do something, all right. It will fulfill a longtime Republican, and fundie, dream.

[LizW]

209. Dead on, NR

And, by the way, I love reading your posts because of your sig pic.

[Dark]

204. So, if research shows something works, he's open to it rather than adamantly sticking by principles

that don't work.

The exact opposite of president shit for brains.

That doesn't sound bad to me.

[robbedvoter]

205. "research" also shows there is no global warming - it can show anything you pay it to

Practice OTOH, shows it's a failure - as people of all political persuasions now agree. parents that is, as opposed to investors.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

207. I was so hoping that someone would ask about NCLB and education last night

[RestoreGore]

211. What a "reaganesque" statement

And what reasearch? It is already out there. It doesn't work.

[Infinite Hope]

212. If research shows they work, most would support it. He knows research won't show they work, so he's

off the hook. No dice.

[jackson_dem]

213. But he isn't a card carrying member of the DLC!!!!!

:rofl:

[jackson_dem]

214. Tom we need you to talk some sense in this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4726737

[DefenseLawyer]

215. That seems like a reasonable thing to say.

He didn't say he supported vouchers. In fact he said he opposes vouchers. All he said was, he wouldn't simply refuse to discuss the issue if it turned out that he and the rest of us, are wrong. That doesn't imply that he thinks they work or that he will change his mind. After 8 years of "leadership" which valued stubbornness and blind faith above all else, I don't mind someone saying they are open to other points of view. It's not like he said he wanted to expand their use or pour money into them. Personally I think you are reading too much into it.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

218. omg thry will defend Obama even at the cost of the Democrat's most core principles thrown under bus

[rodeodance]

220. He was pandering for votes in WI. as Milwaukee has long history of supporting vouchers

under Tommny Thompson---who pushed for them as Governor. case went to Wisconsin SC.




"I will not allow my predispositions to stand in the way of making sure that our kids can learn," Mr. Obama, who has previously said he opposes vouchers, said in a meeting with the editorial board of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel. "We're losing several generations of kids, and something has to be done."
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/20/105444/139

[cooolandrew]

221. There is world of difference between "if" and "will". ...

The system has aspects of privatisation already, if he totally spoke against it then he would have huge amounts to do to reverse it when entering office.