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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 06:37 PM
Original message
"Same skeletons, different closet"
On Oct. 9, 2002 John Kerry participated in "a long list of clear misleading, clear exaggerations," to put it mildly. In his speech on the floor of the Senate just before voting to authorize Bush to invade Iraq, Kerry said: "Why is Saddam Hussein attempting to develop nuclear weapons when most nations don't even try? ... According to intelligence, Iraq has chemical and biological weapons ... Iraq is developing unmanned aerial vehicles capable of delivering chemical and biological warfare agents..."

Kerry became famous by asking senators "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" Kerry is now himself a senator.

Mr. Kerry: How do you ask someone to die for your support of the invasion of Iraq? How do you ask someone to die for this mistake? More than a "mistake," how do you ask someone to die because you voted for an illegal , unconstitutional invasion? How do you ask Iraqis and Americans and others to die because you backed Bush?

How can you tell us that Bush was deceitful when you uttered many of the same falsehoods? How can you hold him accountable when you refuse to be held accountable yourself?


http://www.rense.com/general48/closet.htm
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Been there done that - *takes cover*
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. That's what makes him "electable" :)

He says a lot of the same things, but he's a much better speaker and doesn't need an ear bug.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. David Horowitz led the left the same way back when Nixon needed him.
Boy, he sure did sucker those on the left who were gullible enough to believe he was one of them. A real propaganda spreader.

Made sure Nixon won in 72.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. oh I am so busted.

yes, that's me. secret bush operative. damn you're good.:eyes:
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
30. No, the real SBO's have a plan
.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. you're just trying to keep blm from getting in trouble with Mr. Rove

You know perfectly well at the last meeting he said for both of you to stop talking about the plan and stop outing me.

You are going on report.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. Are you allowed to post this?
Really, what are tens of thousands of dead people compared to John Kerry's desire to win the Presidency at all costs?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. OH, if only Biden-Lugar had passed, instead.
Edited on Mon Mar-15-04 07:08 PM by blm
Then what would be said by those who NEED to blame Kerry instead of Bush?

Coalition of the willing to elect Bush 2004.
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Exgeneral Donating Member (511 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
46. But it didn't
and kerry had another chance to vote NO. He chose not to.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #46
86. Yes, but then
Edited on Tue Mar-16-04 07:16 PM by blm
the same people who support Dean because of Iraq would have to come up with something else to pin on Kerry, as we would STILL be in Iraq today under Biden-Lugar which Dean supported, too.

IMO, they use it as an issue, but if they were half as sincere as they claim they would have been against Biden-Lugar, too, like Kennedy, Kucinich, and other anti-Iraq war politicians.

Trashing Kerry for over a year for a position so close to Dean's actual position is just plain old hypocrisy.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. The only thing I can say is John Kerry did not have the same access and
Edited on Mon Mar-15-04 06:49 PM by mzmolly
to the intelligence as W.

Kerry may be guilty of being naive about Iraq and George Bush, but to insinuate that he has the *same skeletons* is a huge stretch IMHO. :shrug:
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. The information that was the background for the vote came from the
Bush administration.

The Congress was briefed buy Cheney and Rumsfeld and Powell which is the information that the vote was based on.

It is bogus to blame the Congress because they had the same information as Bush when the information came from Bush.

That's like a chicken blaming the new born chick for the egg it hatched from.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I think the point might be that MCs should be deeply skeptical
Especially, frgodssake, of the BushCo regime! Jeez, I wouldn't believe them if they told me what time of day it was. Would you?
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Qutzupalotl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. NOW, no. Then, maybe.
Surely the Bush administration wouldn't be so crass as to LIE about the reasons for a war? Well, they outdid themselves, didn't they? He doesn't trust them NOW. Granted, if he had opposed the war entirely, we'd be in a very different campaign. If he'd been able to stop it, he might have inherited a fixable deficit.

But we've been dealt what we've been dealt. Your choices in November are now: Bush, Kerry, 3rd party, or stay home.
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Hav Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. .
Yes, according to the "intelligence" the Senators and other lawmakers got fed, Iraq posed a threat. False Intelligence relying on informations from the likes of Chalabi but Kerry and other lawmakers did not get told that it was from Chalabi. Kerry said he would have valued that information in a different manner if he knew from where they got the information.
They thought there was a threat and wanted to avoid harm from America.

And what Kerry made clear again and again, he wanted UN weapons inspections and force only as last resort.
The blame needs to be put on Bush, on how they gathered their information and on how the whole gang handled the situation.
Kerry didn't sign "Go to war as first option".
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. So he was criminally naive? That's a recommendation?
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Hav Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. To a degree you are right about being skeptical about information
Edited on Mon Mar-15-04 07:21 PM by Hav
One always has to be skeptical to the information you are given.

But do you remember the French President (de Gaulle I think) who believed the US that there were missiles in Cuba? When asked whether he wanted to see proof he replied that he doesn't need prove because he believed them. He had trust in them that they wouldn't lie about an important issue like that.
I see Kerry's decision in a similar light.

I repeat myself, but the political system can only work when there are certain crucial topics where all parties can work together.
A topic like that is national security. A Senator needs to have some trust in the Admin when it's about securing the country. And a Senator also needs to have trust that they don't get presented fake intelligence.
You know, we can sit at home, pretty safe, because there are people who do make the decisions for us concerning our security. They have a far greater responsibility than you and me. When we are wrong, we can say oops and it most likely it didn't affect anyone else.
When the lawmakers screw up (well like Iraq), it can affect millions.
We are all smarter now, but politicians had to make a decision back then and many relied on the information they were given. They believed in a grave threat and they were concerned about the well being of the American people, the Bush gang excluded of course.
What they didn't consider was, that the Bush Admin would lie in such an irresponsible way.

As much as I was against that war, I can forgive Kerry that vote.
Kerry cared about the American people, the Bush gang didn't.
Kerry cared about the servicemen, the Bush gang didn't.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
82. Was Hans Blix "criminally naive"?
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/16/international/middleeast/16BLIX.html

"Ex-U.N. Inspector Has Harsh Words for Bush

...In the book, written in the same judicious and patient style that Bush administration officials disparaged when they criticized his approach to inspections, Mr. Blix concedes that as late as a month before the war, he still thought the Iraqis were concealing banned weapons...."
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
54. How was he misled, while millions of ordinary folk weren't?
Millions of people around the world were not "misled" by any spurrious BushCo intelligence. They were in the streets of every major city in the world, speaking out against GeeDubya's illegal pre-emptive war.

And if JFK bought into the lie, why on earth would we want to elect him??? If a smirking chimp and his criminal cronies were able to deceive him, can we really trust his judgement on other matters?

It simply boggles the mind.
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Hav Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #54
62. We couldn't have known for sure
They didn't have the access to the information the lawmakers got and they surely didn't had total knowledgeto about Iraq.
Those millions might have been persuaded that Iraq posed no threat but they had no access to the information others had. They were against the war and would have preferred UN inspections, that was what Kerry wanted. In the end they were right but not because of their access to classified information.
Further, if they had been wrong, most of them didn't have to take direct responsibility for the consequences of their mistake.
Those who have to finally make the decisions like our lawmakers have that responsibility.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #62
73. Look at the sources though...
Ahmad Chalabi: a criminal banker who stole millions of dollars via BCCI. A wanted man in Jordan, where he was sentenced to 12 years in prison for his role in BCCI. He was "in exile" in London at the time of the IWR. Now he's part of the Iraqi governing council, despite the fact that he had not even lived in Iraq since the 1950s.

GeeDubya Bush, and cronies: including many of the same people who worked for his daddy and lied to get us into the FIRST Gulf War (remember that 500,000 troop buildup on the Iraqi/Saudi border, and the babies removed from incubators in Kuwait?).

Now, look at the others arguing AGAINST the invasion:

Scott Ritter: former UNSCOM inspector, who was very certain that Saddam no longer had WMD-- and if he did, he had no means to deliver them, and therefore did not pose a threat.

Hans Blix: the "new" head of weapons inspections, who did NOT find WMDs in Iraq, even though they were allowed unfettered access to the places they wanted to look for them.

Not to mention the TWELVE YEARS of sanctions against Iraq, which prevented almost everything for any kind of WMD production from getting through, even through smuggling.

Like I said, how is it possible that ANYBODY who had done even a little homework on this issue could be convinced that Iraq had WMD? And how could ANY Democract TRUST GeeDubya one bit, after the theft of the 2000 election????

Like I said, it simply boggles the mind. I sure have a hard time trusting the judgement of somebody who can be hoodwinked by an unelected chimp, while millions worldwide knew the truth.
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Hav Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. .
You are right but Kerry didn't know that the likes of Chalabi were involved. Kerry already said he would have seen that information in another light if he knew that important information was coming from Chalabi.

Also down in the thread is this piece:

Mr. Blix concedes that as late as a month before the war, he still thought the Iraqis were concealing banned weapons...."


Amd Blix was surely privy to more information than most of us.
It also shows that this issue is not only about trusting Bush.
Blix surely didn't have that opinion because he trusted Bush but because of how he, as an expert, saw the situation.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #74
87. How could he NOT KNOW Chalabi wasn't involved? Bush was in w/ the IRC
GeeDubya was getting fed lies by the Iraqi National Congress, Chalabi's group. The INC had been dismissed by the CIA and NSC as not being credible when it came to their WMD intelligence-- even though the IRC was being funded by US taxpayers!

And if Iraq was such a threat, why weren't Iran and Saudi Arabia calling for an invasion? Wouldn't they be the two nations most directly threatened by Saddam's WMD programs? They would be the two nations with the most to lose, if we take recent history into account.

Kerry made a purely political vote regarding IWR. If he were to admit it, he would gain a huge amount of credibility among those of us who knew that Iraq was not a threat and knew that BushCo was following the PNAC blueprint (which, incidentally, was also available on their web site before the invasion). Unfortunately he keeps claiming he was "mislead" by BushCo.

Even if that was indeed the case, can we really trust a man who was misled by a bunch of pathological liars and con men to be our president? IMHO, that's a VERY frightening prospect.

Yeah, I'll probably end up voting for him, albiet grudgingly. I really miss the old pre-Dubya John Kerry, who wasn't afraid to be called a liberal, and knew enough to see through the bullshit that Reagan/Bush I/Bush II were peddling. I only hope the old Kerry steps front and forward for the remainder of this campaign.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
9. Poop
Edited on Mon Mar-15-04 06:57 PM by WilliamPitt
Oh...wait...I'm not a Dean person, so I actually have to respond with substance. :)

Substance: The author of this piece makes an excellent point. Kerry's comments on the Senate floor parroted very closely the rhetoric from the Bush folks that had come before, and continued later. We were ginning these comments up for use in the Kucinich campaign, because they are quite damning. I went through his October 9th floor comments with a highliter pen to capture the more egregious stuff, and by the time I was done the yellow was running off the page.

I think there are few real excuses Kerry can make here. While I don't agree with his decision to 'trust' Bush and the Bund, I can see the argument that a UN resolution for inspections needed to have the threat of force behind it in order to be effective. This doesn't excuse his use of the rhetoric, however.

I guess, in the end, you either live with it or you don't. You vote for him or you don't. I wrote the first book on this topic, one that has yet to be proven wrong, and it was delivered to his office some days before he made this speech. It galls me to no end to read his October 9th comments because of this.

That having been said, I plan on voting for Kerry because a) I don't think we'd be in Iraq if Kerry had been President in 2003; b) There are somewhere around 500 issues where his views and my views meld pretty much perfectly, the environment being only one; c) I am not a one-issue voter; and d) Bush freed from the need to win another election in 2005 frightens me so badly that I am willing to deal with this.

Or, in other words, "Poop."

:)
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. WTF does this thread have to do with Dean supporters?
:shrug: The OP supports the guy you worked for, remember?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. It was a joke
:) <----
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Oh HA HA HA HA
I can't contain myself knowing your true intent. :eyes:

:pals: Some of us who make such jokes, have posts containing said jokes, *cough* deleted.

Guess I'll send you my jokes from now on.

Ever hear the one about the Rich Liberal Elitist Kerry supporter...? :P

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. "Ever hear the one about the Rich Liberal Elitist Kerry supporter...?"
No. Is it funny? Will I poop from laughter?

Your ESP is amazing to have gleaned my 'true intent.'

Or not.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #27
61. "Will I poop from laughter?"
A: Depends on what you've had for lunch...

If you had caviar at the Kerry mansion you may. :P
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #61
76. I had Kaschi with Kucinich
so I might poop whether I like it or not. :)
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #76
89. Yes... poop you shall. I believe there is about 8 grams of fiber in a
bowl of Kashi?

:hurts: Will Pitt after his luncheon with Dennis Kucinich...
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. It's why Will's apologies carry all the weight of a feather
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. So it's a good thing I wasn't apologizing for anything
Run back to your other website now.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #32
77. awww
my other reply was too much huh? :cry:
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
80. Exactly
"You vote for him or you don't"

What is the benefit of this thread? We need to stand strong together - there was not a perfect person amongst any of the 10 candidates. The PEOPLE obviously thought Kerry was the most qualified to take back our country.

If you don't intend to vote for him - sit down and shut up - he's our candidate now and will remain so.
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
10. My god! You're right! I'm voting bush or nader and so should everyone else
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
12. Kerry is as culpable as Bush, so don't vote for him?
Edited on Mon Mar-15-04 07:07 PM by jpgray
How many different ways are we going to hear this line? The argument has all the logic of a fever dream.

No one denies that Kerry was wrong to throw in with fragmented and dressed-up intelligence. However when articles make the argument that Kerry is no different from Bush on Iraq they make a mockery of the issue. The one who believes the lie is as guilty as the liar himself? In that case, 80% of the public are as guilty as Bush. The article's claim that the intelligence was all 'known lies' on October 9th is false, as any cursory review of the reports from the media at that time will tell you. Some claims were contradicted outright, but others, as Scott Ritter would tell you, could only be discounted by guesses and assumptions from the extant data. In no case were 'all' the claims debunked by October 9th. When this article obfuscates the facts and distorts the truth for its political ends, it is engaging in the same nonsense as the Bush administration.

I take Iraq very seriously. When I see articles like these, I wonder if others take it as seriously as I do. It seems people are more interested in scoring 'points' through false and limited interpretations than they are in presenting the facts to the public.
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Exgeneral Donating Member (511 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
47. Is anyone saying DON'T VOTE FOR KERRY?
What I think they are saying is, take a close look at what you are offering as an alternative to * and think up some good BS to smooth over those similarities.

And pray that the left will hold their noses and vote for him

So far, you people have done everything short of pull a knife to make sure the left stays out of this election.

Just when it looked like we had a chance to win.
How totally Bob Dole.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #47
71. Ouch!
Great post. Doubt it will help, however much I wish it would.
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
16. Pffffft!
Kerry:
"According to intelligence, Iraq has chemical and biological weapons"
Hmmmm...who was it that vetted the intel again?


Bush, and Bush through his mouthpiece:
Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons.
George W. Bush September 12, 2002

If he declares he has none, then we will know that Saddam Hussein is once again misleading the world.
Ari Fleischer December 2, 2002

We know for a fact that there are weapons there.
Ari Fleischer January 9, 2003

There of course are many, many more certainties bush* spoke of, along with his teammates. What closet? It's public record. Both skeletons? Perhaps...but not skeletons of the same beast by any means.




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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
19. The whole statement here, for your reference
TEXT FROM THE SPEECH JOHN KERRY MADE ON THE SENATE FLOOR

October 9, 2002

Obviously, with respect to an issue that might take Americans to war, we deserve time, and there is no more important debate to be had on the floor of the Senate. It is in the greatest traditions of this institution, and I am proud to take part in that debate now.

This is a debate that should be conducted without regard to parties, to politics, to labels. It is a debate that has to come from the gut of each and every Member, and I am confident that it does. I know for Senator Hagel, Senator McCain, and myself, when we pick up the newspapers and read about the residuals of the Vietnam war, there is a particular sensitivity because I do not think any of us feel a residual with respect to the choices we are making now.

I know for myself back in that period of time, even as I protested the war, I wrote that if my Nation was again threatened and Americans made the decision we needed to defend ourselves, I would be among the first to put on a uniform again and go and do that.

We are facing a very different world today than we have ever faced before. September 11 changed a lot, but other things have changed: Globalization, technology, a smaller planet, the difficulties of radical fundamentalism, the crosscurrents of religion and politics. We are living in an age where the dangers are different and they require a different response, different thinking, and different approaches than we have applied in the past.

Most importantly, it is a time when international institutions must rise to the occasion and seek new authority and a new measure of respect.

In approaching the question of this resolution, I wish the timing were different. I wish for the sake of the country we were not here now at this moment. There are legitimate questions about that timing. But none of the underlying realities of the threat, none of the underlying realities of the choices we face are altered because they are, in fact, the same as they were in 1991 when we discovered those weapons when the teams went in, and in 1998 when the teams were kicked out.

With respect to Saddam Hussein and the threat he presents, we must ask ourselves a simple question: Why? Why is Saddam Hussein pursuing weapons that most nations have agreed to limit or give up? Why is Saddam Hussein guilty of breaking his own cease-fire agreement with the international community? Why is Saddam Hussein attempting to develop nuclear weapons when most nations don't even try, and responsible nations that have them attempt to limit their potential for disaster? Why did Saddam Hussein threaten and provoke? Why does he develop missiles that exceed allowable limits? Why did Saddam Hussein lie and deceive the inspection teams previously? Why did Saddam Hussein not account for all of the weapons of mass destruction which UNSCOM identified? Why is he seeking to develop unmanned airborne vehicles for delivery of biological agents?

Does he do all of these things because he wants to live by international standards of behavior? Because he respects international law? Because he is a nice guy underneath it all and the world should trust him?

It would be naive to the point of grave danger not to believe that, left to his own devices, Saddam Hussein will provoke, misjudge, or stumble into a future, more dangerous confrontation with the civilized world. He has as much as promised it. He has already created a stunning track record of miscalculation. He miscalculated an 8-year war with Iran. He miscalculated the invasion of Kuwait. He miscalculated America's responses to it. He miscalculated the result of setting oil rigs on fire. He miscalculated the impact of sending Scuds into Israel. He miscalculated his own military might. He miscalculated the Arab world's response to his plight. He miscalculated in attempting an assassination of a former President of the United States. And he is miscalculating now America's judgments about his miscalculations.

All those miscalculations are compounded by the rest of history. A brutal, oppressive dictator, guilty of personally murdering and condoning murder and torture, grotesque violence against women, execution of political opponents, a war criminal who used chemical weapons against another nation and, of course, as we know, against his own people, the Kurds. He has diverted funds from the Oil-for-Food program, intended by the international community to go to his own people. He has supported and harbored terrorist groups, particularly radical Palestinian groups such as Abu Nidal, and he has given money to families of suicide murderers in Israel.

I mention these not because they are a cause to go to war in and of themselves, as the President previously suggested, but because they tell a lot about the threat of the weapons of mass destruction and the nature of this man. We should not go to war because these things are in his past, but we should be prepared to go to war because of what they tell us about the future. It is the total of all of these acts that provided the foundation for the world's determination in 1991 at the end of the gulf war that Saddam Hussein must:

unconditionally accept the destruction, removal, or rendering harmless underinternational supervision of his chemical and biological weapons and ballistic missile delivery systems... unconditionally agree not to acquire or develop nuclear weapons or nuclear weapon-usable material.

Saddam Hussein signed that agreement. Saddam Hussein is in office today because of that agreement. It is the only reason he survived in 1991. In 1991, the world collectively made a judgment that this man should not have weapons of mass destruction. And we are here today in the year 2002 with an uninspected 4-year interval during which time we know through intelligence he not only has kept them, but he continues to grow them.

I believe the record of Saddam Hussein's ruthless, reckless breach of international values and standards of behavior which is at the core of the cease-fire agreement, with no reach, no stretch, is cause enough for the world community to hold him accountable by use of force, if necessary. The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons.

He has had a free hand for 4 years to reconstitute these weapons, allowing the world, during the interval, to lose the focus we had on weapons of mass destruction and the issue of proliferation.
The Senate worked to urge action in early 1998. I joined with Senator McCain, Senator Hagel, and other Senators, in a resolution urging the President to "take all necessary and appropriate actions to respond to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end his weapons of mass destruction program." That was 1998 that we thought we needed a more serious response.

Later in the year, Congress enacted legislation declaring Iraq in material, unacceptable breach of its disarmament obligations and urging the President to take appropriate action to bring Iraq into compliance. In fact, had we done so, President Bush could well have taken his office, backed by our sense of urgency about holding Saddam Hussein accountable and, with an international United Nations, backed a multilateral stamp of approval record on a clear demand for the disarmament of Saddam Hussein's Iraq. We could have had that and we would not be here debating this today. But the administration missed an opportunity 2 years ago and particularly a year ago after September 11. They regrettably, and even clumsily, complicated their own case. The events of September 11 created new understanding of the terrorist threat and the degree to which every nation is vulnerable.

That understanding enabled the administration to form a broad and impressive coalition against terrorism. Had the administration tried then to capitalize on this unity of spirit to build a coalition to disarm Iraq, we would not be here in the pressing days before an election, late in this year, debating this now. The administration's decision to engage on this issue now, rather than a year ago or earlier, and the manner in which it has engaged, has politicized and complicated the national debate and raised questions about the credibility of their case.

By beginning its public discourse with talk of invasion and regime change, the administration raised doubts about their bona fides on the most legitimate justification for war--that in the post-September 11 world the unrestrained threat of weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein is unacceptable, and his refusal to allow U.N. inspectors to return was in blatant violation of the 1991 cease-fire agreement that left him in power. By casting about in an unfocused, undisciplined, overly public, internal debate for a rationale for war, the administration complicated their case, confused the American public, and compromised America's credibility in the eyes of the world community. By engaging in hasty war talk rather than focusing on the central issue of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, the administration placed doubts in the minds of potential allies, particularly in the Middle East, where managing the Arab street is difficult at best.

Against this disarray, it is not surprising that tough questions began to be asked and critics began to emerge. Indeed over the course of the last 6 weeks some of the strongest and most thoughtful questioning of our Nation's Iraq policy has come from what some observers would say are unlikely sources: Senators like CHUCK HAGEL and DICK LUGAR, former Bush Administration national security experts including Brent Scowcroft and James Baker, and distinguished military voices including General Shalikashvili. They are asking the tough questions which must be answered before--and not after--you commit a nation to a course that may well lead to war. They know from their years of experience, whether on the battlefield as soldiers, in the Senate, or at the highest levels of public diplomacy, that you build the consent of the American people to sustain military confrontation by asking questions, not avoiding them. Criticism and questions do not reflect a lack of patriotism--they demonstrate the strength and core values of our American democracy.

It is love of country, and it is defined by defense of those policies that protect and defend our country. Writing in the New York Times in early September, I argued that the American people would never accept the legitimacy of this war or give their consent to it unless the administration first presented detailed evidence of the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and proved that it had exhausted all other options to protect our national security. I laid out a series of steps that the administration must take for the legitimacy of our cause and our ultimate success in Iraq--seek the advice and approval of Congress after laying out the evidence and making the case, and work with our allies to seek full enforcement of the existing cease-fire agreement while simultaneously offering Iraq a clear ultimatum: accept rigorous inspections without negotiation or compromise and without condition.

Those of us who have offered questions and criticisms--and there are many in this body and beyond--can take heart in the fact that those questions and those criticisms have had an impact on the debate. They have changed how we may or may not deal with Iraq. The Bush administration began talking about Iraq by suggesting that congressional consultation and authorization for the use of force were not needed. Now they are consulting with Congress and seeking our authorization. The administration began this process walking down a path of unilateralism. Today they acknowledge that while we reserve the right to act alone, it is better to act with allies. The administration which once seemed entirely disengaged from the United Nations ultimately went to the United Nations and began building international consensus to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. The administration began this process suggesting that the United States might well go to war over Saddam Hussein's failure to return Kuwaiti property. Last week the Secretary of State and on Monday night the President made clear we would go to war only to disarm Iraq.

The administration began discussion of Iraq by almost belittling the importance of arms inspections. Today the administration has refocused their aim and made clear we are not in an arbitrary conflict with one of the world's many dictators, but a conflict with a dictator whom the international community left in power only because he agreed not to pursue weapons of mass destruction. That is why arms inspections--and I believe ultimately Saddam's unwillingness to submit to fail-safe inspections--is absolutely critical in building international support for our case to the world. That is the way in which you make it clear to the world that we are contemplating war not for war's sake, and not to accomplish goals that don't meet international standards or muster with respect to national security, but because weapons inspections may be the ultimate enforcement mechanism, and that may be the way in which we ultimately protect ourselves.

I am pleased that the Bush administration has recognized the wisdom of shifting its approach on Iraq. That shift has made it possible, in my judgment, for the Senate to move forward with greater unity, having asked and begun to answer the questions that best defend our troops and protect our national security. The Senate can now make a determination about this resolution and, in this historic vote, help put our country and the world on a course to begin to answer one fundamental question--not whether to hold Saddam Hussein accountable, but how.

I have said publicly for years that weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein pose a real and grave threat to our security and that of our allies in the Persian Gulf region. Saddam Hussein's record bears this out.

I have talked about that record. Iraq never fully accounted for the major gaps and inconsistencies in declarations provided to the inspectors of the pre-Gulf war weapons of mass destruction program, nor did the Iraq regime provide credible proof that it had completely destroyed its weapons and production infrastructure.

He has continually failed to meet the obligations imposed by the international community on Iraq at the end of the Persian Gulf the Iraqi regime provide credible proof war to declare and destroy its weapons of mass destruction and delivery systems and to forego the development of nuclear weapons. During the 7 years of weapons inspections, the Iraqi regime repeatedly frustrated the work of the UNSCOM--Special Commission--inspectors, culminating in 1998 in their ouster. Even during the period of inspections, Iraq never fully accounted for major gaps and inconsistencies in declarations provided to the inspectors of its pre-gulf war WMD programs, nor did the Iraqi regime provide credible proof that it had completely destroyed its weapons stockpiles and production infrastructure.

It is clear that in the 4 years since the UNSCOM inspectors were forced out, Saddam Hussein has continued his quest for weapons of mass destruction. According to intelligence, Iraq has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of the 150 kilometer restriction imposed by the United Nations in the ceasefire resolution. Although Iraq's chemical weapons capability was reduced during the UNSCOM inspections, Iraq has maintained its chemical weapons effort over the last 4 years. Evidence suggests that it has begun renewed production of chemical warfare agents, probably including mustard gas, sarin, cyclosarin, and VX. Intelligence reports show that Iraq has invested more heavily in its biological weapons programs over the 4 years, with the result that all key aspects of this program--R&D, production and weaponization--are active. Most elements of the program are larger and more advanced than they were before the gulf war.

Iraq has some lethal and incapacitating agents and is capable of quickly producing and weaponizing a variety of such agents, including anthrax, for delivery on a range of vehicles such as bombs, missiles, aerial sprayers, and covert operatives which could bring them to the United States homeland. Since inspectors left, the Iraqi regime has energized its missile program, probably now consisting of a few dozen Scud-type missiles with ranges of 650 to 900 kilometers that could hit Israel, Saudi Arabia and other U.S. allies in the region. In addition, Iraq is developing unmanned aerial vehicles UAVs, capable of delivering chemical and biological warfare agents, which could threaten Iraq's neighbors as well as American forces in the Persian Gulf.

Prior to the gulf war, Iraq had an advance nuclear weapons development program. Although UNSCOM and IAEA International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors learned much about Iraq's efforts in this area, Iraq has failed to provide complete information on all aspects of its program. Iraq has maintained its nuclear scientists and technicians as well as sufficient dual-use manufacturing capability to support a reconstituted nuclear weapons program. Iraqi defectors who once worked for Iraq's nuclear weapons establishment have reportedly told American officials that acquiring nuclear weapons is a top priority for Saddam Hussein's regime.

According to the CIA's report, all U.S. intelligence experts agree that Iraq is seeking nuclear weapons. There is little question that Saddam Hussein wants to develop nuclear weapons. The more difficult question to answer is when Iraq could actually achieve this goal. That depends on is its ability to acquire weapons-grade fissile material. If Iraq could acquire this material from abroad, the CIA estimates that it could have a nuclear weapon within 1 year.
Absent a foreign supplier, it might be longer. There is no question that Saddam Hussein represents a threat. I have heard even my colleagues who oppose the President's resolution say we have to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. They also say we have to force the inspections. And to force the inspections, you have to be prepared to use force. So the issue is not over the question of whether or not the threat is real, or whether or not people agree there is a threat. It is over what means we will take, and when, in order to try to eliminate it.

The reason for going to war, if we must fight, is not because Saddam Hussein has failed to deliver gulf war prisoners or Kuwaiti property. As much as we decry the way he has treated his people, regime change alone is not a sufficient reason for going to war, as desirable as it is to change the regime.

Regime change has been an American policy under the Clinton administration, and it is the current policy. I support the policy. But regime change in and of itself is not sufficient justification for going to war--particularly unilaterally--unless regime change is the only way to disarm Iraq of the weapons of mass destruction pursuant to the United Nations resolution.

As bad as he is, Saddam Hussein, the dictator, is not the cause of war. Saddam Hussein sitting in Baghdad with an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction is a different matter. In the wake of September 11, who among us can say, with any certainty, to anybody, that those weapons might not be used against our troops or against allies in the region? Who can say that this master of miscalculation will not develop a weapon of mass destruction even greater--a nuclear weapon--then reinvade Kuwait, push the Kurds out, attack Israel, any number of scenarios to try to further his ambitions to be the pan-Arab leader or simply to confront in the region, and once again miscalculate the response, to believe he is stronger because he has those weapons?

And while the administration has failed to provide any direct link between Iraq and the events of September 11, can we afford to ignore the possibility that Saddam Hussein might accidentally, as well as purposely, allow those weapons to slide off to one group or other in a region where weapons are the currency of trade? How do we leave that to chance?

That is why the enforcement mechanism through the United Nations and the reality of the potential of the use of force is so critical to achieve the protection of long-term interests, not just of the United States but of the world, to understand that the dynamic has changed, that we are living in a different status today, that we cannot sit by and be as complacent or even negligent about weapons of mass destruction and proliferation as we have been in the past.

The Iraqi regime's record over the decade leaves little doubt that Saddam Hussein wants to retain his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and, obviously, as we have said, grow it. These weapons represent an unacceptable threat.

I want to underscore that this administration began this debate with a resolution that granted exceedingly broad authority to the President to use force. I regret that some in the Congress rushed so quickly to support it. I would have opposed it. It gave the President the authority to use force not only to enforce all of the U.N. resolutions as a cause of war, but also to produce regime change in Iraq, and to restore international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region. It made no mention of the President's efforts at the United Nations or the need to build multilateral support for whatever course of action we ultimately would take.

I am pleased that our pressure, and the questions we have asked, and the criticisms that have been raised publicly, the debate in our democracy has pushed this administration to adopt important changes, both in language as well as in the promises that they make.
The revised White House text, which we will vote on, limits the grant of authority to the President to the use of force only with respect to Iraq. It does not empower him to use force throughout the Persian Gulf region. It authorizes the President to use Armed Forces to defend the ``national security'' of the United States--a power most of us believe he already has under the Constitution as Commander in Chief. And it empowers him to enforce all ``relevant'' Security Council resolutions related to Iraq. None of those resolutions or, for that matter, any of the other Security Council resolutions demanding Iraqi compliance with its international obligations, calls for a regime change.

In recent days, the administration has gone further. They are defining what "relevant" U.N. Security Council resolutions mean. When Secretary Powell testified before our committee, the Foreign Relations Committee, on September 26, he was asked what specific U.N. Security Council resolutions the United States would go to war to enforce. His response was clear: the resolutions dealing with weapons of mass destruction and the disarmament of Iraq. In fact, when asked about compliance with other U.N. resolutions which do not deal with weapons of mass destruction, the Secretary said: The President has not linked authority to go to war to any of those elements.

When asked why the resolution sent by the President to Congress requested authority to enforce all the resolutions with which Iraq had not complied, the Secretary told the committee: That's the way the resolution is currently worded, but we all know, I think, that the major problem, the offense, what the President is focused on and the danger to us and to the world are the weapons of mass destruction.
In his speech on Monday night, President Bush confirmed what Secretary Powell told the committee. In the clearest presentation to date, the President laid out a strong, comprehensive, and compelling argument why Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs are a threat to the United States and the international community. The President said: "Saddam Hussein must disarm himself, or, for the sake of peace, we will lead a coalition to disarm him."

This statement left no doubt that the casus belli for the United States will be Iraq's failure to rid itself of weapons of mass destruction.

I would have preferred that the President agree to the approach drafted by Senators Biden and Lugar because that resolution would authorize the use of force for the explicit purpose of disarming Iraq and countering the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.
The Biden-Lugar resolution also acknowledges the importance of the President's efforts at the United Nations. It would require the President, before exercising the authority granted in the resolution, to send a determination to Congress that the United States tried to seek a new Security Council resolution or that the threat posed by Iraq's WMD is so great he must act absent a new resolution--a power, incidentally, that the President of the United States always has.
I believe this approach would have provided greater clarity to the American people about the reason for going to war and the specific grant of authority. I think it would have been a better way to do this. But it does not change the bottom line of what we are voting for.

The administration, unwisely, in my view, rejected the Biden-Lugar approach. But, perhaps as a nod to the sponsors, it did agree to a determination requirement on the status of its efforts at the United Nations. That is now embodied in the White House text.

The President has challenged the United Nations, as he should, and as all of us in the Senate should, to enforce its own resolutions vis-a-vis Iraq. And his administration is now working aggressively with the Perm 5 members on the Security Council to reach a consensus. As he told the American people Monday night: "America wants the U.N. to be an effective organization that helps keep the peace. And that is why we are urging the Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough, immediate requirements. Because of my concerns, and because of the need to understand, with clarity, what this resolution meant, I traveled to New York a week ago. I met with members of the Security Council and came away with a conviction that they will indeed move to enforce, that they understand the need to enforce, if Saddam Hussein does not fulfill his obligation to disarm."

And I believe they made it clear that if the United States operates through the U.N., and through the Security Council, they--all of them--will also bear responsibility for the aftermath of rebuilding Iraq and for the joint efforts to do what we need to do as a consequence of that enforcement. I talked to Secretary General Kofi Annan at the end of last week and again felt a reiteration of the seriousness with which the United Nations takes this and that they will respond.

If the President arbitrarily walks away from this course of action--without good cause or reason--the legitimacy of any subsequent action by the United States against Iraq will be challenged by the American people and the international community. And I would vigorously oppose the President doing so.

When I vote to give the President of the United States the authority to use force, if necessary, to disarm Saddam Hussein, it is because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a threat, and a grave threat, to our security and that of our allies in the Persian Gulf region. I will vote yes because I believe it is the best way to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. And the administration, I believe, is now committed to a recognition that war must be the last option to address this threat, not the first, and that we must act in concert with allies around the globe to make the world's case against Saddam Hussein.

As the President made clear earlier this week, "Approving this resolution does not mean that military action is imminent or unavoidable." It means "America speaks with one voice."
Let me be clear, the vote I will give to the President is for one reason and one reason only: To disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, if we cannot accomplish that objective through new, tough weapons inspections in joint concert with our allies.
In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days--to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force. If he fails to do so, I will be among the first to speak out.

If we do wind up going to war with Iraq, it is imperative that we do so with others in the international community, unless there is a showing of a grave, imminent--and I emphasize "imminent"--threat to this country which requires the President to respond in a way that protects our immediate national security needs.

Prime Minister Tony Blair has recognized a similar need to distinguish how we approach this. He has said that he believes we should move in concert with allies, and he has promised his own party that he will not do so otherwise. The administration may not be in the habit of building coalitions, but that is what they need to do. And it is what can be done. If we go it alone without reason, we risk inflaming an entire region, breeding a new generation of terrorists, a new cadre of anti-American zealots, and we will be less secure, not more secure, at the end of the day, even with Saddam Hussein disarmed.
Let there be no doubt or confusion about where we stand on this. I will support a multilateral effort to disarm him by force, if we ever exhaust those other options, as the President has promised, but I will not support a unilateral U.S. war against Iraq unless that threat is imminent and the multilateral effort has not proven possible under any circumstances.

In voting to grant the President the authority, I am not giving him carte blanche to run roughshod over every country that poses or may pose some kind of potential threat to the United States. Every nation has the right to act preemptively, if it faces an imminent and grave threat, for its self-defense under the standards of law. The threat we face today with Iraq does not meet that test yet. I emphasize "yet." Yes, it is grave because of the deadliness of Saddam Hussein's arsenal and the very high probability that he might use these weapons one day if not disarmed. But it is not imminent, and no one in the CIA, no intelligence briefing we have had suggests it is imminent. None of our intelligence reports suggest that he is about to launch an attack.

The argument for going to war against Iraq is rooted in enforcement of the international community's demand that he disarm. It is not rooted in the doctrine of preemption. Nor is the grant of authority in this resolution an acknowledgment that Congress accepts or agrees with the President's new strategic doctrine of preemption. Just the opposite. This resolution clearly limits the authority given to the President to use force in Iraq, and Iraq only, and for the specific purpose of defending the United States against the threat posed by Iraq and enforcing relevant Security Council resolutions.

The definition of purpose circumscribes the authority given to the President to the use of force to disarm Iraq because only Iraq's weapons of mass destruction meet the two criteria laid out in this resolution.

Congressional action on this resolution is not the end of our national debate on how best to disarm Iraq. Nor does it mean we have exhausted all of our peaceful options to achieve this goal. There is much more to be done. The administration must continue its efforts to build support at the United Nations for a new, unfettered, unconditional weapons inspection regime. If we can eliminate the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction through inspections, whenever, wherever, and however we want them, including in palaces--and I am highly skeptical, given the full record, given their past practices, that we can necessarily achieve that--then we have an obligation to try that as the first course of action before we expend American lives in any further effort.

American success in the Persian Gulf war was enhanced by the creation of an international coalition. Our coalition partners picked up the overwhelming burden of the cost of that war. It is imperative that the administration continue to work to multilateralize the current effort against Iraq. If the administration's initiatives at the United Nations are real and sincere, other nations are more likely to invest, to stand behind our efforts to force Iraq to disarm, be it through a new, rigorous, no-nonsense program of inspection, or if necessary, through the use of force. That is the best way to proceed.
The United States, without question, has the military power to enter this conflict unilaterally. But we do need friends. We need logistical support such as bases, command and control centers, overflight rights from allies in the region. And most importantly, we need to be able to successfully wage the war on terror simultaneously. That war on terror depends more than anything else on the sharing of intelligence. That sharing of intelligence depends more than anything else on the cooperation of countries in the region. If we disrupt that, we could disrupt the possibilities of the capacity of that war to be most effectively waged.

I believe the support from the region will come only if they are convinced of the credibility of our arguments and the legitimacy of our mission. The United Nations never has veto power over any measure the United States needs to take to protect our national security. But it is in our interest to try to act with our allies, if at all possible. And that should be because the burden of eliminating the threat posed by weapons of mass destruction should not be ours alone. It should not be the American people's alone.

If in the end these efforts fail, and if in the end we are at war, we will have an obligation, ultimately, to the Iraqi people with whom we are not at war. This is a war against a regime, mostly one man. So other nations in the region and all of us will need to help create an Iraq that is a place and a force for stability and openness in the region. That effort is going to be long term, costly, and not without difficulty, given Iraq's ethnic and religious divisions and history of domestic turbulence. In Afghanistan, the administration has given more lipservice than resources to the rebuilding effort. We cannot allow that to happen in Iraq, and we must be prepared to stay the course over however many years it takes to do it right.

The challenge is great: An administration which made nation building a dirty word needs to develop a comprehensive, Marshall-type plan, if it will meet the challenge. The President needs to give the American people a fairer and fuller, clearer understanding of the magnitude and long-term financial cost of that effort.

The international community's support will be critical because we will not be able to rebuild Iraq singlehandedly. We will lack the credibility and the expertise and the capacity. It is clear the Senate is about to give the President the authority he has requested sometime in the next days. Whether the President will have to use that authority depends ultimately on Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein has a choice: He can continue to defy the international community, or he can fulfill his longstanding obligations to disarm. He is the person who has brought the world to this brink of confrontation.
He is the dictator who can end the stalemate simply by following the terms of the agreement which left him in power.

By standing with the President, Congress would demonstrate our Nation is united in its determination to take away that arsenal, and we are affirming the President's right and responsibility to keep the American people safe. One of the lessons I learned from fighting in a very different war, at a different time, is we need the consent of the American people for our mission to be legitimate and sustainable. I do know what it means, as does Senator Hagel, to fight in a war where that consent is lost, where allies are in short supply, where conditions are hostile, and the mission is ill-defined. That is why I believe so strongly before one American soldier steps foot on Iraqi soil, the American people must understand completely its urgency. They need to know we put our country in the position of ultimate strength and that we have no options, short of war, to eliminate a threat we could not tolerate.

I believe the work we have begun in this Senate, by offering questions, and not blind acquiescence, has helped put our Nation on a responsible course. It has succeeded, certainly, in putting Saddam Hussein on notice that he will be held accountable; but it also has put the administration on notice we will hold them accountable for the means by which we do this.

It is through constant questioning we will stay the course, and that is a course that will ultimately defend our troops and protect our national security.

President Kennedy faced a similar difficult challenge in the days of the Cuban missile crisis. He decided not to proceed, I might add, preemptively. He decided to show the evidence and proceeded through the international institutions. He said at the time:

"The path we have chosen is full of hazards, as all paths are... The cost of freedom is always high, but Americans have always paid it. And one path we shall never choose, and that is the path of surrender, or submission."

So I believe the Senate will make it clear, and the country will make it clear, that we will not be blackmailed or extorted by these weapons, and we will not permit the United Nations--an institution we have worked hard to nurture and create--to simply be ignored by this dictator.

I yield the floor.

http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/kerry-iraq.html
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Ah Christ, Will...
...I read Truthout before my work e-mail...even before my first cup o' coffee. I trust you, man.
That said, I've posted links to that speech in a couple of places in DU for other reasons. IMO, there's far too much weight being given here to the Kerry statements on Hussein's "weapons". A large majority in Congress went with what they were told the intelligence was when they voted. Is each member supposed to be able to interpret that data independently before voting? Did they even have access to the raw data? I don't know myself, I believe it would help if that were cleared up.
Beyond that, I believe Kerry's repeated referrals to the administration's promised position of exhausting diplomatic means and his likewise repeated insistence that he was giving his yes vote based on those reassurances renders his wmd position moot. Even if he had access to the CIA's raw data and interpreted it incorrectly himself, his insistence that proper paths be followed before one soldier "steps foot on Iraqi soil" makes the existence or non-existence of weapons less important.
In one instance you placed emphasis on this one sentence,

"Yes, it is grave because of the deadliness of Saddam Hussein's arsenal and the very high probability that he might use these weapons one day if not disarmed."

In all fairness the remainder of that paragraph in its entirety is what deserves the emphasis...
"In voting to grant the President the authority, I am not giving him carte blanche to run roughshod over every country that poses or may pose some kind of potential threat to the United States. Every nation has the right to act preemptively, if it faces an imminent and grave threat, for its self-defense under the standards of law. The threat we face today with Iraq does not meet that test yet. I emphasize "yet." Yes, it is grave because of the deadliness of Saddam Hussein's arsenal and the very high probability that he might use these weapons one day if not disarmed. But it is not imminent, and no one in the CIA, no intelligence briefing we have had suggests it is imminent. None of our intelligence reports suggest that he is about to launch an attack."

Where our anger should more properly be directed we may draw from this quote from the speech...
"I believe the work we have begun in this Senate, by offering questions, and not blind acquiescence, has helped put our Nation on a responsible course. It has succeeded, certainly, in putting Saddam Hussein on notice that he will be held accountable; but it also has put the administration on notice we will hold them accountable for the means by which we do this."

We ultimately couldn't hold the administration accountable for one reason and one reason alone...because the republicans on Capitol Hill wouldn't allow it, and the president knew they wouldn't all along. If people feel they were betrayed, that's where they should look first, because that's where the system of checks and balances we rely on so heavily went tits up.


That's just my opinion though. Keep up the good work! :)
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. We most certainly CAN hold Bush* accountable
on Election Day 2004.
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. That's gonna feel soooo good!
Still and all, I would have loved to see the knucklehead get the impeachment he so richly deserved.
I have so few dreams these days...that would have been sweet. The fact that Clinton's "offense" unbelievably rose to that level but this moron's crimes are actually approved of by half the country does nothing to reassure me as to the overall health of the process. :(
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. I prefer the sound of the word
"indictment" myself. YMMV
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. No kidding...I really wanted to say "perp walk"...
...but I figured I'd be accused of dreaming too big!
:yourock:
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Go ahead and say it!
"Cake walk"

It make you feel better instantly!
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. P-p-p-per-per-per-
Perp walk that mizruhbull, murderin', country-stealin', Connecticut cowboy sonuvabitch!!
That felt good...damned good! I am forever in your debt for my liberation from misguided civility.
Unlike bush*, you have actually set someone free!

:toast:
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 10:36 PM
Original message
Surprised I Have To Do This For You, Will
Ok, at least two points are just plain wrong. The assassination attempt was bogus, and the inspectors were pulled out.

Beyond that, Kerry is clearly relying on the information the intelligence community is providing him (he can't go out there himself). He states clearly that this is the opinion - strong opinion - of the intelligence community regarding Iraq's capabilities, and there is little he mentions that France, Germany, and Howard Dean didn't also believe existed. No one had any idea that NOTHING would show up. Let me rephrase that - no one with access to intelligence had any idea (I realize the geniuses on the internet figured it out a long time ago).

Based on Saddam's ambitions throughout the 90's - well-documented ambitions for WMDs, including a nuclear program prior to the Gulf War - and his history of trying to play games with inspectors ("Presidential zones" and such), it could be reasonably be drawn that the threat of force was necessary for compliance. Bill Clinton thought so, and I agree.

So, yes, much of this does not hold up AFTER inspectors were allowed in, but that doesn't change Kerry's fundamental position for multilateral disarmament through the exhaustion of peaceful means.

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
53. I hear you
but what galls me is the use of the inflammatory rhetoric. He parrots, and often augments, Bush's rhetoric in this. All I am saying - and you can take this to the bank - is that some of the choicer quotes from this are going to come back to haunt him.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #53
72. Gee, really?
Are you sure they won't ask Kerry for an explanation before these are blasted on every op-ed page in the country?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
21. Brought to you by the Coalition of the Willing to Elect Bush 2004.
After all, it's not Bush's fault that Kerry voted for a Resolution. He deserves no blame, when we have Kerry around.

I don't blame Kucinich for the gains made by the prolife movement since the GOP gained control of Congress....even though some feminists do.

In fact, I supported DK even when he WAS prolife because I believed in his heart he was more liberal than some of his positions.

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Exgeneral Donating Member (511 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #21
48. This is what I'm talking about
NO critique of Kerry's positions will be tolerated. You will be assimulated.

This ain't how to make nice to half your party folks.
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #48
60. Exgeneral - that's what DU is like. It's mostly a bunch of
frothing-at-the-mouth party-line Democrats, & nothing more. There's a sprinkling of independent opinion & attempts at honest analysis mixed in. But for the most part, don't expect better than conformist zealotry here.

If you ever want to test the mental health of this place, try starting a thread with the word 'Nader' in it, & see what happens. :eyes:

There is one limited exception: sometimes, you can get away with small criticisms of Kerry, but you have to include in your remarks an apologetic comment like, "Now, don't get me wrong, I'll vote for Kerry and I'm of course ABB, but...."
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
22. Way To Cherry Pick...Your...Quotes
"According to the CIA's report, all US intelligence experts agree that Iraq is seeking nuclear weapons. There is little question that Saddam Hussein wants to develop nuclear weapons. The more difficult question to answer is when Iraq could actually achieve this goal. That depends on is its ability to acquire weapons-grade fissile material. If Iraq could acquire this material from abroad, the CIA estimates that it could have a nuclear weapon within one year.

Absent a foreign supplier, the CIA estimates that Iraq would not be able to produce a weapon until the last half of this decade. Nevertheless, Saddam Hussein's quest for nuclear weapons and his proven willingness to use weapons of mass destruction underline the very serious threat that the Iraqi regime could pose to the United States and others in the international community if left unchecked."

"Every nation has the right to act preemptively if it faces an imminent and grave threat. But the threat we face, today, with Iraq fails the test. Yes, it is grave because of the deadliness of Saddam Hussein's arsenal and the very high probability that he will use these weapons one day if he is not disarmed. But it is not imminent.

None of our intelligence reports suggest that Saddam Hussein is about to launch any kind of attack against us or countries in the region. The argument for going to war against Iraq is rooted in enforcement of the international community's demand that Iraq disarm. It is not rooted in the doctrine of preemption."

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2002_1009.html

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Yeah, but check post 19
He threw a lot of shit on the floor.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
81. Yet at that time he has access to Scott Ritter's data
and your book,or galleys of it, did he not?

I don't know how anyone could have read Ritters stuff and NOT known the intel was cooked.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. So did Hans Blix
but he also thought that Iraq had WMD's.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/16/international/middleeast/16BLIX.html

"Ex-U.N. Inspector Has Harsh Words for Bush

...In the book, written in the same judicious and patient style that Bush administration officials disparaged when they criticized his approach to inspections, Mr. Blix concedes that as late as a month before the war, he still thought the Iraqis were concealing banned weapons...."
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #22
38. Taking quotes out of context to misportray a Dem?
Edited on Mon Mar-15-04 09:49 PM by sangha
Now that's a new one!
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
26. Kerry puts some considerations ahead of Bush's, obviously.
... and the BFEE's -- for instance, the national security of the United States. Here's something Kerry knew, but I bet you Bush didn't know...

A bomb for the Ummah

By David Albright & Holly Higgins

Some of Pakistan’s nuclear scientists believe that the bomb should be shared with all of the Muslim community, even—or especially—with Al Qaeda.

In June 2000, two Pakistani nuclear scientists, Sultan Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood and Chaudiri Abdul Majeed, founded Ummah Tameer-e-Nau, “Reconstruction of the Muslim Ummah,” or “UTN,” an organization whose purported purpose was to conduct relief and development work in Afghanistan.

A few weeks after September 11, however, Pakistani authorities detained Mahmood, Majeed, and other UTN board members amid charges that their activities in Afghanistan had involved helping Al Qaeda in its quest to acquire nuclear and biological weapons as well. The U.S. government, which pressed for Mahmood’s and Majeed’s arrest, later placed them and their organization on its list of individuals and organizations supporting terrorism.

Although Mahmood and Majeed had met several times with Al Qaeda, Pakistani officials insisted that they lacked the specific scientific know-how to help Al Qaeda build nuclear weapons. “For that kind of operation you need dozens and dozens of people and millions of dollars,” a senior member of Pakistan’s Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC) told the October 28, 2001 Mercury News. “That sort of technology transfer takes 50–60 years. The chance that gave the Taliban nuclear arms is zero—less than zero.”

However, the November 1, 2001 New York Times quoted other Pakistani officials who said that such denials should not be taken at face value. According to the Times, one Pakistani official recalled the instructions he received in the mid-1990s about contacts with American officials. He was told to deny that Pakistan was developing nuclear weapons, even though the country had fully assembled nuclear bombs at the time. “It’s just one of those things you can’t be absolutely straightforward about,” he told Times reporter John Burns.

CONTINUED...

http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/2003/ma03/ma03albright.html
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
29.  Yes. bush has only bombed Pakistan a tiny bit. Big chance for Kerry here

This is his opportunity to stress the dangers of the Muslim Menace, and declare zero tolerance for non-Christian countries who dare to develop weapons that could prove an obstacle or impediment to US military objectives.



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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. You never can worry too much
For your next act, I suggest worrying about how Kerry is going to send anthrax through the mail.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Get a clue. What do you think the FBI is for? Duh.
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. They are very busy right now
It's time for my annual colonscopy.

Managed care is a bitch
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. Kerry, as far as I know has nothing against Muslim countries.
Pakistan used funds laundered through BCCI to develop its nuclear weapons.

Then, Pakistan sold the technology to everybody with the money to pay for it.

So, in reply to your statement, Kerry doesn't want terrorist groups to possess nuclear weapons.

That makes two of us.

FYI: I do not equate Islam with terrorism.

Nuclear Bombshell: The Truth that John Kerry Knows

K SUBRAHMANYAM
< SUNDAY, MARCH 14, 2004 11:00:27 PM >

The myth that A Q Khan's proliferation activities were conducted without the knowledge of the Pakistani army chiefs and prime ministers and further that the US administration was fully satisfied with this explanation stands demolished. Consider the following.
 
One, in an interview to the Far Eastern Economic Review US deputy secretary Wolfowitz indicates there was a deal between the US and Pakistan for the cover-up.
 
Two, according to Khan's friends, General Zia-ul Haq directed him to respond to the 1987 Iranian overtures for nuclear technology but told him not to go too far.
 
Three, two former assistant secretaries of state of the Bush (Sr) administration, Harry Rowan and Henri Sokoslki, have disclosed that General Aslam Beg told them in 1990 that if the US were to cut off aid to Pakistan it might be forced to share nuclear technology with Iran at a price.

CONTINUED...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/559873.cms
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Just think of the US as a stern father with many, many children

The children are America's properties around the globe, or as the terrorists call them, "other countries."

If the children do as they are told, and are careful to always put their Father first, they may be rewarded with privileges, like a limited amount of Father-approved autonomy, or even the privilege of defending themselves from their siblings.

When the children disobey, or put their own selfish interests above Father's, they must be punished. Some very naughty children try to get out of their punishment, and they must be punished more severely.

After an especially severe punishment, the naughty child's toys are taken away, and its privileges revoked, and Father keeps his all-seeing eye on the recalcitrant one, to ensure obedience.
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. So what's that mean?
No pudding for Pakistan?
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. It means that Kerry can score big points by promising to bomb it

And upgrade the occupation there to a full Gaza-style extravaganza, just like the ones he'll be running in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Iran and most of Africa.
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. So why hasn't he promised it yet?
.
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Exgeneral Donating Member (511 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-04 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. I guess he needs to check with DU first
after all we're all so ....influential
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #50
63. So DU is going to approve another invasion?
Sounds like more of that fringe theory I'll never understand.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
55. Well, he made a mistake. Sadly, most of our legislators did on this issue.
Edited on Tue Mar-16-04 01:53 AM by Zorra
But Sen. Kerry has an overall very solidly liberal voting record and has sponsored some excellent legislation. I am not someone that believes in squashing free speech or dissent, but IMO we need to move beyond this issue and the few mistakes that Kerry has made because dwelling on these issues at this point is relatively counterproductive and divisive. And unity among Democrats really is essential right now, because it is critical, literally a matter of life and death, that Bu$h be removed from power. There is no real alternative but to vote for the Democratic nominee. No one else can win this election but the Democratic nominee or Bu$h. We all realize this. We all know what we need to do in order to get rid of the fascists.

I am going to vote for Kerry, and although he was not my first choice as a candidate, the majority has spoken, and I accept that. I think John Kerry will be a good President, maybe a great one.

But.....after reading this thread, it looks like Mr. Kerry could really benefit from having Dennis Kucinich as a VP. Dennis is obviously very perceptive, judging from his views on Iraq prior to the invasion. (Incoming!)

November 2002 issue
The Bloodstained Path
by Dennis Kucinich

Unilateral military action by the United States against Iraq is unjustified, unwarranted, and illegal. The Administration has failed to make the case that Iraq poses an imminent threat to the United States. There is no credible evidence linking Iraq to 9/11. There is no credible evidence linking Iraq to Al Qaeda. Nor is there any credible evidence that Iraq possesses deliverable weapons of mass destruction, or that it intends to deliver them against the United States.

http://www.progressive.org/nov02/kuc1102.html

Obviously Oil
By Rep. Dennis Kucinich
AlterNet
Tuesday 11 March 2003

Meanwhile, the justifications the Administration has made for this war can be rather easily dismissed. Contrary to Administration assertions, a war against Iraq will not be in self-defense: Iraq does not pose an imminent threat to the United States. It doesn't have the ability, nor has it ever had the ability, to shoot a missile or send a bomber to harm America. Iraq does not possess nuclear weapons. Furthermore, there is no credible evidence that Iraq had anything to do with the terrorist attacks of 9/11.

http://www.pnnd.org/kucinich_obviously_oil.htm

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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 01:58 AM
Response to Original message
56. Doesn't matter one tiny bit to me
call me cold
call me callous
call me Machiavelli
I just really don't care
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Doomsayer13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
57. The war was used to divide us
I think in many ways, this war was political. It divided the Democrats right down the middle, and I'm sure RoveCo was hoping this division would carry into the election and sink us just like how it sunk Humphry and McGovern. Well, I'm not willing to play into their hands and suffer under 4 more years of Bush. I think Kerry voted with his best intentions and I wouldn't have done the same but I'm not willing to give Rove and his neo-con buddies the benefit of knowing that their divide and conquer tactics worked. Democrats must stand united or else we lose. Kerry is not a perfect candidate, but he's a good man and he's strong on nearly all of the other issues. For me, the idea of me waking up to a headline of "Bush re-elected" is just too scary to comprehend.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
58. The primaries are over. The time to air this crap was then.
Edited on Tue Mar-16-04 02:43 AM by w4rma
We need to pull together and focus the attacks on BUSH until November. After the November elections we can go back to tearing one another apart, imho.

I don't think that the anti-establishment-at-all-costs folks understand the situation we're in.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. Do you really think BushCo isn't going to "air this crap"?
The John Kerry of the liberal record whom blm and Funk love and respect isn't the John Kerry who's the presumptive nominee. The presumptive nominee is a different, more right-wing, less-principled John Kerry who just happens to share a history with blm's one.

BushCo is not going to give this John Kerry a pass. We can either deal with that, or shove our heads in the sand, but Kerry did what he did: he bought into the lies told by a psychopathic usurper who has no right to the office wherein he sits. Why would ANYone in their right mind believe such a creature? The deepest and most complete skepticism should have been the immediate response to ANY statement by that cabal. Especially on the part of a guy whose job description is to act as a brake on lunacy.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #59
64. Correct as usual, Mairead
Those attacking us here are going to have to come up with some better responses, because all of this is going to be brought up over and over, and just attacking in response isn't going to win an election. We DUers aren't the only ones thinking these thoughts.

"Kerry did what he did"... yup. And we gotta deal with it. It's definitely out there. One fine albatross.

You can trash us, and decimate the voter base further, or you can find a way to enthuse the rest of us who are seeing the albatross.

Kanary

Another Delusional Diehard for Dennis!!

Kucinich 2004!

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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #59
65. I think BushCo is going to lose support when they "air this crap"
And seeing as how you used an article that dishonestly quotes selected Kerry phrases while editing out the context in order to misportray his actions, I think there's a strong argument to be made that your arguments have no relationship with reality.

The deepest and most complete skepticism should have been the immediate response to ANY statement by that cabal.

UN Inspector Hans Blix said in an interview that until the last few weeks before the invasion, even he thought Iraq had WMD's and was trying to build more. I guess Blix is also a "right-wing, less-principled" version of some person formerly known as Hans Blix.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. Ex-U.N. Inspector Has Harsh Words for Bush
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/16/international/middleeast/16BLIX.html

"Ex-U.N. Inspector Has Harsh Words for Bush

...In the book, written in the same judicious and patient style that Bush administration officials disparaged when they criticized his approach to inspections, Mr. Blix concedes that as late as a month before the war, he still thought the Iraqis were concealing banned weapons...."

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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #59
78. Yeah. OK. But
Bu$h has to go. Can you give any sane alternative? No third party is going to win this election. It's down to Kerry or Bu$h. And I think you will agree, Bu$h is not an option.

It's true, they'll attack in every way possible, and we can't hide our heads in the sand. Knowledge and information are power. But the bottom line is that the republicans want to divide us, they need to divide us, and they are counting on dividing us. We cannot afford to be divided. While Germany squabbled and divided, Hitler took power. We simply can't let that happen in America.

Check out this quote that Redqueen posted in another thread. I think DK is expressing the reality of the situation here:

"We're talking about the essential mission of government -- and John Kerry is going to need a lot of help. He may not be able to say the things he needs to say, so we need to say the things that must be said. We need to present the issues. We need to set the priorities of our party, and we need to set a direction for the Democratic Party, so when people come in November they’ll be lining up outside the polls." -- Dennis Kucinich in speech to PUSH Coalition.

I agree with this.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. This is the key part for me: "we can't hide our heads in the sand"
Truthful criticism is good. Just think where we'd be now if Kerry had practiced truthful criticism at even one point in his career: standing up with the CBC to oppose the Coup!!
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #79
84. "Can you give any sane alternative?"
It was a simple question. Why don't you try to answer it?
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revcarol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
67. If Kerry believed the lies, he was naive,stupidly naive,
as from the moment Bush was selected he has only told the truth ONCE: "I'm a uniter, not a divider." Bush HAS united most of the world against us!!

NOW that Kerry KNOWS he was deceived, what's he gonna DO? NUTHIN'. Just "internationalize" the WAR OF OCCUPATION a little more, and give the new nations some contracts for reconstruction to reward(bribe) them.SAME-O,SAME-O.

THAT'S what I can't forgive.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #67
69. Please read
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
68. Dems have already traded the truth for "electabity" - & may get neither.
The cowardice & lack of principle so characteristic of Democrats has already resulted in rejection of the only candidate who told the truth - Dennis Kucinich. Even Howard Dean, who was guilty of occasionally blurting out some uncomfortable truths, had to be canned, in favor of a candidate more agreeable to the Establishment -- precisely because he's proved he can be trusted to keep quiet about the right things.

Dem party zealots can rant & rave about this all they like, but a candidate who is complicit in the Iraq war crimes & in allowing the Pentagon budget to hit $400+ B (essentially theft from the American people for the benefit of defense contractors) is simply not going to arouse wide enthusiasm. Kerry's platform is, "Vote for me - I lie somewhat less than Bush!" Some people will buy this; many won't.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #68
70. Someone who portrays DK as a savior
probably has little credibility when speaking of how a candidate can "aroude wide enthisiasm", IMO
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #68
85. Okey doke, RichM. I counted to 100 and it didn't help at all.
I'm still pissed.

"The cowardice & lack of principle so characteristic of Democrats"

Bite me, alright? I can hear that crap on Hannity & Cannity if I'm so inclined. I'm principled and I damned sure ain't no coward. Perhaps you paint unintentionally with too broad a brush, but after 1000+ posts I seriously doubt a lack of intent, so in return for your directed insult, kiss my Democratic ass.

"a candidate who is complicit in the Iraq war crimes"

Bull.

"Dem party zealots can rant & rave about this all they like"

Rant? Rave? It struck me as rationalization. If you had a better candidate for this particular year I imagine he'd be the nominee, or at least close. If you don't have a better candidate, I'm afraid you'll have to wait.Your act more closely resembles ranting and raving. See there's something very basic going on this year...you hear this 'electable' talk all the time. Why do you think that is? It's because before we get anywhere we have to take back the process. Screw taking back the country this year. We have to take back the process first. Four more years without any checks or balances beyond a freaking filibuster here and there and our ability to ever win another election will be seriously endangered. Don't think so? Watch 527's go bye-bye, if not for this election then certainly next. Media consolidation? Forget about it. Done deal. They'll own the news. Then what? Do you have deep pockets? I sure as hell don't. I give 10 stinkin' bucks a week to Kerry's campaign and it hurts. You think you can match the right-wing's corporate funding sitting on a street corner with a tin cup and a "Vote For D.K." sign?
We get Kerry in, he fixes the major leaks and starts the bilge pumps so we at least stop sinking. He gets re-elected off that, and hopefully, hopefully we can start voting our conscience again in 2012, with a primary in which we can actually vote for ideals. There won't ever be a perfect candidate...not for you, not for me, not for anybody. If that's what you're waiting for you can expect only bitter disappointment.
I've already got friends in Canada begging me to emigrate, so you go ahead and sit this one out because Kerry offends you. If enough people do that you and they can figure out what to do with the wreckage. Me and mine will hit the bricks. You can even have my stinking trailer, which no doubt puts me on bush*'s list of contented homeowners (yet another sure sign the economy's fine!).
You go ahead and keep calling me a coward, dude. Don't call me unprincipled though because I must have those...I never succumbed to the temptation to tell you what I thought of you for saying it.



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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. Well, I must admit, I sort of like your post, even though you're
saying mean things about me. O8)O8) However, I don't think you have properly understood my perspective.

I agree with much of how you lay out what will happen if Bush wins (with the exception that some of it has ALREADY happened - such as the media being fully in the hands of rightwingers).

Also, I did have a better candidate - Dennis Kucinich. His being better bears no relation at all to whether or not he's the nominee. He spoke many truths that are unacceptable to those who hold power in our society; therefore, they shut him out of the media entirely. These truths were equally unacceptable to powerful people in the Democratic Party, who were complicit in shutting him out.

The reason there was this talk about "electability" is related to why I call the Democratic Party (not necessarily every individual who supports it, by the way) "cowardly & unprincipled." The "electability" meme was seized upon by those who demanded that the party put forth ONLY an Establishment-acceptable candidate. Even Dean, who is pretty damn Establishment, didn't qualify -- precisely because he had this disturbing habit of blurting out uncomfortable truths, now and then.

For the party as a whole to fall for this, to go along with nominating someone who has signalled to the big power-brokers that he won't rock the boat in any way -- this is utterly disgraceful. It is ALREADY a defeat and a betrayal. Kerry cannot campaign as someone trying to bring "truth to the people." He is COVERING UP for the Busheviks, by pretending that the Iraq War was based on WMD and Saddam being evil, when it was always about OIL and BASES and global domination. Kerry won't mention a word of that. He can't - he's already on record with TOTAL SILENCE about this massive lie.

Don't take my remarks personally. But realize that your party has already sold you out, by nominating a disgraceful & compromised candidate - an enabler of the war, and a facilitator of all the lies of silence that allow the Big War Lie to continue. With a pro-war Democrat now nominated, the campaign CAN NOT EVEN APPROACH the question of why we went to war. This issue is already off the radar-screen, down the memory hole. The WORST of the Bush lies can't even be brought into play, because the Democrat now basically AGREES with Bush about the general framing of the issue. All that's left to argue about are little details, like whether or not we should have gotten the allies on board first.
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. Heck! Since it wasn't personal...
...I hope you'll accept my apology. :toast:
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