"Only Dennis Kucinich had the courage to vote against the war."

[HFishbine]

To dispell the myth that Dean is still dissing Kucinich on his opposition to the war, please view this appearance by Dean in Ames, Iowa on Sunday.

Dean gives Kucinich props, saying, "Of all the people running from congress, only Dennis Kucinich had the courage to vote against the war."

It's at 18:34: rtsp://video.c-span.org/project/c04/c04122803_dean.rm

[redqueen]

1. Dean has earned more respect from me with that act.

Not completely redeemed himself politically, I still have to consider a candidate's record. :)

[WiseMen]

2. Dean can say this NOW. After co-opting anti-war base, flooding mailboxes

with literature which make the voter base think otherwise.

[MuseRider]

4. That is my main problem

with this. I was very happy when Dean mentioned this during the debates. My concern at that time was that thousands of people had already seen the ads and may not have watched the debates. This is the same deal, thousands have those flyers and possibly many did not hear Dean this time either. For the uninformed and the disinterested but voting public this is a dirty trick. I really would like to believe this was not intentional and I did after the first time when he apologized but to do it again, I just do not trust that this was accidental. Sorry. It is the primary after all and everything is fair in my book except outright lying.

[redqueen]

8. How many got lying flyers? How many saw this speech?

Very good point.

Sneaky, he is.

[Hep]

3. Will it calm Kucinich and his supporters down?

The jury is out.

[MuseRider]

5. See post above.

I am calm, it just points out the obvious differences between your candidate and mine. We all are willing to overlook some things but the things we overlook are different.

[Hep]

7. I definitely understand your issue

and I can't say you're wrong. Dean's saying that he was the only one, or his LITERATURE saying it, bothers me.

[HFishbine]

11. How honest was it of the Kucinich campaign

to send out an e-mail two days ago implying that the Dean campaign was still sending out the offending flyers?

[redqueen]

12. How honest is it of you

to assume that the flyers are not still being sent out?

Let me put it this way:

Of the two men, which one is more forthright and honest, Dean or Kucinich?

So, why are you assuming that the flyers are not still being mailed out?

It seems a reasonable person might wait for evidence before making accusations about how the Kucinich camp is lying, especially considering how many times Dean has been caught being 'less than completely forthright and honest'.

[HFishbine]

16. Good Gawd Man, Think!

Kucinich sends out an e-mail, unsupported by evidence, that those flyers are still being sent out and you say "wait for the evidence?" Shouldn't the evidence have come before the accusation?

[redqueen]

23. You missed a part

The part about which man / campaign is more credible.

Without evidence, from either side, all one has to go on is the credibility of the person / campaign doing the accusing / defending.

This distinction makes all the difference in the world.

[HFishbine]

26. "Without evidence..."

Fine. We can leave it at that and let it speak for itself.

[Demobrat]

6. It's not like Dean actually has a choice.

He has to refer to Dennis one way or the other. His only choice is whether to just dismiss Dennis by referring to his "major" opponents, thereby covering himself, or give Dennis props by name, which is the route he chose.

[MuseRider]

9. I disagree with you

on that. Of course he has to refer to Dennis, he is running for the same office. Not lying is not giving someone else props. He can couch his statement any way he pleases but DK voted against it and Dean did not. It is up to our specualtion if he would have or not. He shouldn't use this to boost himself because when it comes right down to it DK is the one who acted. Dean had no opportunity to do that. If he must paint himself as anti Iraq war then he should not try to convince people he is the only one.

[Demobrat]

10. And by mentioning that Dennis was the only one

who voted against the war, Dean is trying to convince people he was the only one how? Dean has two choices. Dismiss Dennis as a contender, which he could easily do, or not. He chose not. Which is decent of him, considering K's standing in the race.

[MuseRider]

13. I see nothing decent

about not dismissing your opponents. It seems only fair to acknowledge that there are others in the race besides yourself. I am trying to understand why Dean feels the need to misrepresent an opponents obvious record, one that he agrees with, rather than find the other ways they are different. If he feels like he must misrepresent the others to boost himself then that concerns me. As far as the comment about dismissing DK as a contender I will refrain from commenting. Democracy can be messy sometimes.

[Demobrat]

20. Kucinich is not an opponent.

That's the point.

[revcarol]

22. Them's fightin' words.

Not one vote cast yet.

[redqueen]

14. That's funny

You seem to think Dean took the high road to begin with.

Reminder: he didn't. He had to be confronted and forced to admit reality first.

Wow... that Dean, he's some 'straight shooter'.

[Hep]

15. Somemight believe differently

But considering his numbers, I don't consider Kucinich among the potential nominees anyway. I'm glad he's still in it, but HONESTLY he's statistically insignificant. I mean, if LaRouch raises more money than you, what's the point? Is Kucinich even running for president anymore, or is he buying all the face time he can get?

[redqueen]

24. How again does your post respond to mine?

I was talking about how silly it was for another post to seem to reflect a reality that does not exist: that being the reality where Dean took the high road from Day One and didn't have to be cajoled and coerced into doing the right thing.

This has nothing to do with whether Kucinich is worthy of Dean's respect, your respect, or anyone else's respect.

This has to do with knowing the difference between right and wrong. Also known as knowing how to actually be forthright and honest, and not having to worry about what the definition of 'is' is.

[revcarol]

18. He got caught, AGAIN,

and I'm sure his campaign took a lot of flak, not to mention all the LTE's that will appear in the next few days and the local newscasts that will mention his lying.

So NOW he's the white knight for saying this? Don't need another lying President. Reminds me of the McCain smear lying.Dean has gone to the bottom of my list, along with Lieberman.

[HFishbine]

21. Again?

When?

[revcarol]

27. Didn't you see the AFL/CIO debates in which DK called out Dean for

this same lie, and Dean retracted his statement on national television?
And you followed that 300 post thread in which there was an article from the DesMoines Register, that Dean was distributing brochures with the same claim, in Iowa a couple of weeks ago.

So this NH brochure distribution is the third, as recorded in the Concord, NH paper.

Dean does not have a good record of honesty.:-( And I wish he did. I would like our front-runner at this point to be a person I could respect.:( So sad.

[HFishbine]

31. Get Your Facts Straight

Look, as I've stated before, I'm open to any credible evidence that would support what you think happened, and I'm trying not to be abrasive, but seriously, let's keep the facts straight.

FACT #1) The Dean campaign sent out a flyer in November in New Hamshire and ran some TV ads in Iowa, both of which erroneously claimed Dean was the only candidate to oppose the war. Dean took the heat for this, including some from this supporter.

FACT #2) Dean publicly retracted that statement at an AFL-CIO meeting, pulled the ads, and stopped the mailings. He has since taken to pointing out, during debates and on stump speeches, that Kucincich is the only candidate who voted against the war.

Those are the facts that can be documented. Let's examine your embelishments.

Embelleshment #1 The Article from the Des Moines Register
You claim, in the above post, that the 300 post thread (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=39573) included an article from the Des Moines Register which reported that Dean was distributing the same flyer in Iowa a couple of weeks ago. Such an article does not exist in that thread.

Furthermore, a search for such an artcicle on the Internet comes up empty. You claim the article reports that Dean was making the same erroneous claim again, yet the source you cite doesn't exist. There remains no proof that such a flyer was distributed in Iowa a "couple of weeks ago" as you assert.

Embelleshment #2 It's the Third Time, According to a Concord Newspaper
The e-mail from the Kucinich campaign does indeed mention an article of Dec. 27 in the Concord Monitor. It clearly does not say, as you assert however, that an erroneous brochure was sent for the "third" time.

What is does say, is that Dean "recently mailed brochures to homes in New Hampshire with a headline stating that Dean is the only candidate who 'opposed the war from the start.'" There is no indication that this refers to anything other than the orignal flyer from November.

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/politics2003/122703_kucinich_2003.shtml

Quite clearly, there is zero evidence that any erroneous brochures were mailed to anyone a "couple of weeks ago" or that this isn't anything other than a re-hash of the original flap. Like I said though, I'm willing to look at evidence to the contrary, there just hasn't been any yet.

Until something comes along to convince me otherwise, I think Kucinich supporters have been had by recycled flame bait.

[rucky]

17. That's the best way to turn it around

class act

[revcarol]

19. No class act to obfuscation.

Class act would not be lying in the first place.

Not against you personally rucky. Love your avatar. I have a bumper sticker just like it, next to my Kucinich bumper sticker, because DK is so great for labor.

[rucky]

28. wtf? I wasn't being sarcastic for once.

DK IS a class act.

[revcarol]

29. Musta misunderstood.

falling down on knees begging forgiveness...:eyes:

100% correct DK is a class act!!

[ErasureAcer]

25. don't be sorry, don't be stupid

Howard.

You're done in my books.

NEXT!

[Myra]

30. Did Dean really say that!? Good for him!

Because lots of people in NH are still staring at
Dean's brochures stating that Dean is the only candidate
who 'opposed the war from the start.'"
But it's good that he's stopped the dissing.

Maybe now he'll send out corrected brochures?!
...I can always hope.

[diamondsoul]

33. Myra, if you have one or know someone who does

and still has the envelope with postmark, please ask around and see if they'll scan it and post it. The proof is most urgently needed as to the latest dates the flyers were mailed and recieved.

[LWolf]

32. Thank you, Dr. Dean.

I appreciate that.

Now make sure that no one has brochures from your campaign in their homes saying differently, just in case they weren't in Ames, Iowa or on CSpan to hear it.