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The conventional wisdom says Clinton is doomed. Don't believe it.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:10 PM
Original message
The conventional wisdom says Clinton is doomed. Don't believe it.
Hillary Comes Alive



By John Dickerson
Monday, Feb. 11, 2008

{snippets}

The best news for Hillary Clinton's campaign may be that it's headed over a cliff. In a campaign season where conventional wisdom has been so wrong so often, she can take heart that the current view among the political class is that Obama is marching unstoppably toward the nomination.

. . . all is not lost for those who support Hillary Clinton. Here are a few reasons to keep hope alive (why let Obama own that word?):

1. Clinton has a floor: Despite Obama's successes, he has been unable to make significant inroads with key voting blocs. Women, Latinos, and less-prosperous voters all have continued to support Clinton. Obama is the candidate who is supposed to have the crazed supporters, but when the Washington Post recently asked Democratic voters how adamantly they supported their candidate, it was Clinton whose troops were more committed.

These are the groups that helped sustain Clinton in big states on Super Tuesday after Obama won in Iowa and South Carolina. Obama has had a few scattered wins among them (leading with women in Iowa and Maine), but he has not had great success reaching into these still-for-Clinton groups.

Clinton is banking on her loyal constituencies for her comeback day on March 4, where she hopes working-class whites in Ohio and Latinos in Texas will give her victories. An early test of whether blue collar voters are holding for Clinton might come in pockets of Wisconsin, which votes next week. The college towns will go for Obama, but much of the state resembles Ohio. These areas should back Clinton. If not, she's in trouble.

2. Front-Runner Blues: Who would want to be the front-runner in this race? Every time someone is thus anointed, he or she falters. This isn't just superstition. There are specific pressures that come with being at the front of the field. Buyer's remorse can set in. As more Democrats look at Obama in nominee focus, they might start to worry over his general election liabilities. He may have experience, but he's never really been tested. (These unresolved qualms may explain why voters who make up their mind on Election Day go with Clinton).

3. Cynics for Clinton: The Democratic nomination may come down to the 796 superdelegates. How these Democratic elected officials and party insiders will vote is a mystery. They could back a candidate based on their own independent judgment; they could opt to follow the will of the voters; they could split on that question. If Obama scores some upsets in states he's not supposed to win, he may be able to convince a big chunk of superdelegates that he's the candidate, and that'll be the end of it. But if the race remains close, the backroom battle seems to favor the Clintons. They have more ties to these party insiders, and they know how to play the game (that's in Part 1 of the arguments Obama is making against them). Obama can stir a crowd of 20,000, but it's the Clinton team that can make the insider case. For example, when Clinton talks about being able to fight the Republican attack machine, party insiders who have seen the combat up close may be apt to buy the argument that despite Obama's inspiring language, only the Clintons understand what's necessary to combat the GOP.

In a race where so much that seemed certain has not been, any struggling candidate can find a reason to persevere, especially perhaps a candidate who was once seen as inevitable. Of course the race's switchbacks have now become such a predictable part of conventional wisdom that it may be time now for the undulations to stop and for momentum to start playing a role again. In that case, Clinton is doomed.


full article: http://www.slate.com/id/2184207/
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. I rarely trust 'conventional wisdom'- and don't think this thing is over
by a long shot.

There is no reason to discount either candidate until a nominee is formally chosen. In my opinion, that woud be just plain stupid.

peace~
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surfermaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
25. You are so right
Things happen,
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hogwyld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. My biggest concern as a Barack supporter
Is that he might (I said might) have a slight delegate lead, but Hillary and Bill will find a way to twist some SD arms, and tilt the nomination to them. That reeks of old school politics, but it is the reality we deal with.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. I know it'll be counter to my support for Sen. Clinton
but, I'm bullish against the anti-democratic construction of the SDs. I oppose any unethical or illegal manipulation of the process and I am dead set against the inevitable back-room deals between the campaigns and party insiders.
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hogwyld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Thank you for your good points
I would prefer that the SD's be prevented from either endorsing or committing to any campaign until the last vote of the last state has been counted. This would keep the process transparent, and on the up and up. I would hope either candidate would reject the smoky back room shenanigans of the past. BTW, I would have no problem supporting HRC if she is the nominee.
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. 'The best news is that Hillary's campaign is headed over a cliff'
Then she can visit with Giuliana!
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Devlzown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. It's way too early to count anyone out.
This race is neck and neck and even the loser in any given primary can still win a significant amount of delegates. I think this one is going to be decided at the convention.
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bushisdirt Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
5. If she pulls a Clinton at the last moment and forces the Supers
to vote for her, I will mortgage my house and spend every cent trying to defeat her in November. And I'll be there are tens of thousands everywhere who will do similar things. I do NOT want that woman contaminating the white house. God knows Bush has contaminated it enough.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. how vile and unproductive
I hope she 'pulls a Clinton' and achieves a two-term presidency, paying down the debt with the budget in surplus, engaging in peaceful and productive relationships between and among other nations of the world, and promoting and advancing the planks of our Democratic agenda.

I also look forward to defending her presidency against unwarranted, opportunistic political attacks.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. She won't.
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Oh bullshit. n/t
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aquarius dawning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. Uuhhhmmmm, yeaaah... forget to take your meds this morning perhaps?
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. You feel the same way if the supers vote for Obama?
Or do you only dislike the method if Hillary wins?
That's the theme I seem to get around here. It's OK to brake any rules that help Obama...but you can't stand the thoughts of any rules being bent or broken if they help Hillary. Hmmmmm........... Doesn't seem fair to me.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. Clinton hatred at its best with your post!
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
30. Aren't you full of love and hope?
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bushisdirt Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. If she pulls a Clinton at the last moment and forces the Supers
to vote for her, I will mortgage my house and spend every cent trying to defeat her in November. And I'll be there are tens of thousands everywhere who will do similar things. I do NOT want that woman contaminating the white house. God knows Bush has contaminated it enough.
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. Hmmm, very interesting...............
I'll remember this comment, and several others similar to this one, in November. If she's not in the ticket in any shape or form, I might just buy some popcorn and watch from the sidelines.


:shrug:
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EmperorHasNoClothes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. March 4 is really the key to everything.
I don't think we'll have a good idea which way this thing is going to go until those numbers are in. I, for one, am not counting Hillary out yet, although obviously the greater the pledged delegate lead for Obama, the harder it will be for her to come back.
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
8. Not doomed yet, but there is one intangible...
...none of the pundits can anticipate.

Nobody has ever run against Barack Obama for president before.

He may also surprise folks with a wave that takes him to the front-runner position - and keeps him there.

IMO, March 4 will probably confirm his nomination; but even after tonight, it will be too early to celebrate.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. He is a political force . . . very effective campaigner, and, a good Democrat.
. . . and, he's a gentleman.
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Nobody has run against Hillary for president before either...so? n/t
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
12. Obama's support is a mile wide and an inch deep
The first crisis he flubs, his "crazed supporters" will fold like an origami butterfly. He'd better pray that his "Mo" holds out all the way through November.

After today, he'll be the official Front Runner. Tomorrow and Thursday will be lost to manic gloating, but then his online shills will have a collective "ruh-roh" moment. No more poor-underdog treatment. The press may actually want to ask him some questions.

News cycles last slightly more than a week. Obama has dominated the last two, and did well in three before that. How long will his good fortune last?

If the media really are controlling the election, and want an Obama-v-McCain match-up, the luck will last until August -- and then disappear. Obama supporters think we ought to give the press an even break. This week, anyway.

--p!
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. I think, if Hillary is successful in the upcoming contests where she's favored to win
Edited on Tue Feb-12-08 12:31 PM by bigtree
the race *may be even again, with Clinton slightly ahead. That's not a great comfort zone.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. You're right about that
(Obama supporters: My last post was intended to be wonky, not combative. So is this one.)

I don't think a lot of Obama's team understands just how fragile their momentum is. As soon as the press lets up on Hillary and starts asking Obama a few tough questions, it becomes a very different contest.

By all standards (except those that we internet wackos adhere to), this has been a mild race. Obama's main pro-active campaigning is in issuing mild attacks toward Hillary, and raising enthusiasm among his supporters. But the anti-Clinton slime machine is in full gear again, and she's got her hands full. (Some are imitating Obama supporters, but they are pretty transparent.) The press, as usual, is giving wide AND deep coverage to anti-HRC stories.

But that's politics.

Obama needs to show some serious skills very soon. People are starting to realize that he's only ever run one serious national campaign, and that was against a crackpot even among Republicans (Alan Keyes). He's never had to answer for his mistakes at all, not that he's particularly grimy. (But neither is HRC, and some of the bots around here include one or more unsubstantiated smear per post.) We have no idea how he deals with a dirty attack except for the "muslim/madrassa" chain letter. (And I chipped in to help there by forwarding the debunking material to EVERYONE on every copy I got. How's that for a dirty Hilbot who "will do anything to win"?) The press has softballed him -- as Chris Matthews said, "we love the new guy ... we're fascinated with him!"

We have already seen him debate. He is not a particularly aggressive debater and when he does bare his fangs, he loses control easily. Not all the time, and I certainly doubt that Obama is a weakling, but as soon as he responds to attacks or difficulties, we automatically have something with which to compare him to Hillary. Unless he's very good indeed, it's point Hillary.

And his underdog status is gone. He's running on sympathy fumes. He needs to top Hillary by at least 20 points in each of the primaries today, or Hillary gets a Pyrrhic victory; yet if he wins at all, he loses the underdog mojo for good.

So Obama is facing a political phase change. Tomorrow, he is campaigning in a new race. And that's why his lead and momentum are fragile -- nearly anything will work against him until he changes his tactical game.

If he is a one-trick pony, Hillary will come back strong and win comfortably. If he isn't, the campaign will become a whole lot more interesting.

--p!
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book_worm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
15. No realistic person believes it. This could go both ways.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I believe
"yes, we will"
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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
19. Momentum
One of the (many) things that concern me is the "mile wide and inch deep" support amongst many (not all) who support Obama. I have a client who is one of those supporters. She worked 24/7 for three days before the primary, making and holding signs, canvassing, phoning, on no sleep and in a fervor. Right after the primary, she said, "now that the primary's over, what am I going to do?" and promptly joined a soccer league. She wasn't interested in helping Obama win other states. For many, it seems to be about winning, and that's it. Like a football game--it's about desperately needing to feel recognized and superior.

That's what Hillary does not speak to (to her credit, IMO), and that's why she does not have the "momentum" now. She keeps talking about what she's going to do AFTER she's "won," not about how great those voters are who are on her "team," who are going to "help" her win.

So once these individuals see their candidate getting sworn in, then what? They've put him in there to make changes for them, but what specific changes do they want to see? What changes are they willing to work for, specifically? My guess is, none. Mostly from a sense of despair over the state of the Bush years, they want to feel recognized and superior again.

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cooolandrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
22. Yeah backroom dealings isn't that what we have now. Barack says he wants more tranparency. Which is
fair to voters. To see where money was spent and what arrangement was reached with who.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. I agree with that.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
23. Impeach Dick Cheney.
Believe it.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-12-08 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
28. Who are these self-inflating experts that talk about conventional wisdom?
Has there ever been a campaign that has been the same?
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