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Hillary and Obama. A Comparison.

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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:33 PM
Original message
Hillary and Obama. A Comparison.

Hillary = Work to Accomplish Change.

Obama = Inspire People to Want Change.

To me, both are valid appoaches that carry some flaws.

Hillary's flaw is assuming people will fight with her for the change we need.

Obama's flaw is assuming the GOP cares what the people want.

Hillary's strength is she knows what levers to pull and whose butts to kick. Lyndon Johnson was also good at this.

Obama's strength is getting the mass of people behind him. Ronald Reagan was also good at this.

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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. kick
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. Excellent post, maddiejoan ! K&R
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jakem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. getting people behind him...

RR is ghe only example of this you can think of?

really?
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Give me a better one.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Obama used him of such an example.
Why do you object to maddiejoan doing so?
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I was using the examples
they have both used for themselves.

correct.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Isn't it funny how nobody objects when St. Obama does it
But they rant and rave when a "Hillbot" does it?
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. It's actually not funny.
it drives me crazy.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. I didn't mean funny "ha ha"
I meant funny "fucked up".
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Then I'd say
BINGO!
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jakem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:40 PM
Original message
i just though it was an odd choice. Obama gave Reagan as a very specific example-

but lets see-


FDR, MLK, JFK, Gandhi, Washington, Churchill,

every leader of, you know, political cults...
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
30. And maddiejoan gave Reagan as a very specific example.
A leader of, you know, a political cult.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
45. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. You know that name-calling is against DU rules?
jakem Donating Member (939 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-09-08 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
45. thats a good answer


for, you know, an ass.




Sorry if the truth hurts that bad.

Not.






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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
57. Not true.
The leaders you named did not make it all about them. They dealt with issues and ran on the strength of their programs, not on their personalities.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. Another difference I notice...
Hillary makes it about what SHE will do on behalf of the people.

Obama makes it about what WE will do together.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. That's actually
the same difference I'm talking about.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. It may explain the difference in supporters...
Edited on Sat Feb-09-08 06:41 PM by polichick
Older and poorer voters may need more help and like the idea of someone acting on their behalf ~ younger ones and those of us who are doing pretty well want to feel engaged and part of changing the country. ('Course that's a generalization.)
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
7. Brilliant brief analysis.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Thanks, Bonobo.
I know we have had bad bouts on the board, and I'm glad you seem to like my pithy analysis.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
8. And either one would be light years better than anyone the GOP could ever conceive of.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. No question in my mind.
It's the difference between laser beams and flint knives.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
32. I wish I could be more optimistic, but neither will change anything.
Will either of them...
  • End the war?
  • Establish single payer health care?
  • Close down foreign bases?
  • Break up media monopolies?
  • Change trade policies?
  • Make the tax system more progressive?
  • And many more...

I don't see either of them really changing anything. Maybe they will slow the advance of fascism a bit, but they are both corporate operatives.

--IMM
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
13. Can we list what they each have "done" to change things?
I'll go first:


Barack Obama can honestly claim to have made a difference on a matter of life and death.

While an Illinois state senator, Obama was key in getting the state's notorious death penalty laws changed, including a requirement that in most cases police interrogations involving capital crimes must be recorded.

The changes enacted in 2003 reformed a system that had sent 13 people to death row, only to have them released because they were later determine to be innocent or had been convicted using improper methods.

"Without Barack's energy, imagination and commitment I do not believe the very substantial and meaningful reforms that became law in Illinois would have taken place," said author Scott Turow, a member of the state commission that recommended many of the changes.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/12/obama.death.penalty.ap/

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
17. Ethics reform "done" by OBama......
This is another example of the main quality that distinguishes Sen. Obama from Sen. Clinton: leadership. The ethics bill is NOT perfect. But the bill was the first major ethics reform legislation with teeth in a long, long time. Sen. Obama worked to make government accountable, and Sen. Clinton stood on the sidelines, supporting the bill at the time but now bashing it. And given that Sen. Clinton is the one taking fundraising money from lobbyists, who represent "real people" after all, you would think she could take a clearer stand on the issue. But she hasnt, and thats not leadership.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/1/15/182839/252
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
18. LBJ had a record of serious legislative accomplishments before becoming President
Edited on Sat Feb-09-08 06:43 PM by Radical Activist
Hillary doesn't. I don't think she offers hope or competence at enacting change, either one.

Johnson was also willing to sign the Civil Rights Act knowing it would cost elections in the South. I've never seen any sign of Clinton ever standing up for an issue when she knew it would be a political loser.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Really?
Health Care.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. She failed to get us universal health care.
I think you made my point. She gave up even pushing for it for 10 years after it failed and instead pushed for small measures far short of universal coverage. Her incremental approach never reached its goal.

So she 1) failed miserably at trying to get it passed in '93 and 2) didn't have the conviction to keep pushing hard for universal coverage despite her claim that its the top issue of her life. She looks incompetent AND spineless.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. She lost a lot of political capital
sticking her neck out for a (at the time) very unpopular issue.

She deserves praise for her efforts, not derision.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Clinton got elected in '92 promising universal health care.
If there was ever a time when it was politically feasible to be for universal coverage it was then. He had a mandate for it.

Her failure to stick her neck out since then doesn't impress me.

Its funny that you bring up LBJ. Comparing LBJ's lasting legacy to the fact that Bush completely erased Clinton's legacy within two years is a major reason why I don't want another Clinton in the white house. We don't get a Democratic President very often and I want one who is really going to use the powers of the office to change things in a way that Bill never did. I can't see Hillary doing that.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. lacking a crystal ball
I don't see how you see into the future so well.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior.
We've seen enough of Hillary to know what kind of political animal she is and I don't see her changing dramatically. I think she'll shift back and forth with the polls and propose small changes that are politically safe and poll-tested, just like she has in the past.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. If that's true
How are you predicting Obama's being capable of effecting any change at all?
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Obama has a long progressive record and many legislative accomplishments.
Most of it is in the Illinois State Senate where he was very effective but he has gotten major bills passed in the US Senate as well. I'll match up their record of accomplishment any day. Obama measures up very well.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. It's not as impressive as Hillary's
But it's solid for a Illinois State Senator.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
19. Good thread, and I agree that Hillary knows what levers to pull
But I'm not sure that any amount of lever pulling is going to be able to take on the powerful lobbies that we are up against.

Either way if she is the nominee she will have my full support. She will make a much better President than McLame.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
20. Expanded Children's health coverage in Illinois
Obama sponsored a bill that expanded health insurance programs for low-income families in Illinois. Following that bill's passage, more than 150,000 additional people reportedly received health insurance through the programs.
---------

In 2003, Obama sponsored a bill that expanded eligibility for KidCare and FamilyCare by amending "the Children's Health Insurance Program Act to provide that a child with a household income of 200%, rather than 185%, of the federal poverty level is eligible to participate in the Program." The House version of the bill was sponsored by state Rep. Sandra Pihos, a Republican. On July 1, 2003, Illinois Gov. Ron Blagojevich (D) signed the bill into law.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200712170003
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
22. And certainly, Obama "did" grassroots work that made a difference
.....


Vote of Confidence
A huge black turnout in November 1992 altered Chicago's electoral landscape—and raised a new political star: a 31-year-old lawyer named Barack Obama.

In the final, climactic buildup to November's general election, with George Bush gaining ground on Bill Clinton in Illinois and the once-unstoppable campaign of senatorial candidate Carol Moseley Braun embroiled in allegations about her mother's Medicare liability, one of the most important local stories managed to go virtually unreported: The number of new voter registrations before the election hit an all-time high. And the majority of those new voters were black. More than 150,000 new African-American voters were added to the city's rolls. In fact, for the first time in Chicago's history-including the heyday of Harold Washington-voter registrations in the 19 predominantly black wards outnumbered those in the city's 19 predominantly white ethnic wards, 676,000 to 526,000.

None of this, of course, was accidental. The most effective minority voter registration drive in memory was the result of careful handiwork by Project Vote!, the local chapter of a not-for-profit national organization.

"It was the most efficient campaign I have seen in my 20 years in politics," says Sam Burrell, alderman of the West Side's 29th Ward and a veteran of many registration drives.

At the head of this effort was a little-known 31-year-old African-American lawyer, community organizer, and writer: Barack Obama.

To understand the full implications of Obama's effort, you first need to understand how voter registration often has worked in Chicago. The Regular Democratic Party spearheaded most drives, doing so using one primary motivator: money. The party would offer bounties to registrars for every new voter they signed up (typically a dollar per registration).

The campaigns did produce new voters. "But bounty systems don't really promote participation," says David Orr, the Cook County clerk, whose office is responsible for voter registration efforts in the Cook County suburbs. "When the money dries up, the voters drop out." Nor did the Democratic Party always vigorously push registration among minorities, Orr says. "It's not that they discouraged it. They just never worked hard to ensure it would happen."
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/January-1993/Vote-of-Confidence


Obama's Community Roots per the Nation

13,000 a year, plus $2,000 for a car--a beat-up blue Honda Civic, which Obama drove for the next three years organizing more than twenty congregations to change their neighborhoods.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070416/moberg




Project Vote is the voter-mobilization arm of ACORN. It is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization whose professed purpose is to carry out "non-partisan" voter registration drives; to counsel voters on their rights; and to litigate on behalf of voting rights -- focusing on the rights of the poor and the "disenfranchised."

Project Vote’s major program areas include the following:

Voter Participation Program: “, Project Vote has helped more than 4 million Americans in low-income and minority neighborhoods register to vote, including 1.1 million in 2003-04. In the same period, Project Vote reached more than 2.3 million low-income and minority voters to educate them about the importance of voting. Our methodology is based on face-to-face contact between voters and trusted community messengers, generally a representative of a local community organization.”

Election Administration Program: “ encompasses every aspect of election implementation, from voter registration application design to voting booth placement to vote counting and everything in between. Working in neighborhoods nationwide, Project Vote documents voting problems and works closely with elections officials, secretaries of state, and state legislators to enact proactive, pragmatic solutions. A central component of our work is the inclusion of low-income and minority voters through the involvement of our community partners.”

NVRA Implementation Project: “ partnership between Project Vote, ACORN and Demos aims to improve voter registration services at public assistance agencies. Section 7 of the National Voter Registration Act of 1993 requires states to offer voter registration to public assistance clients upon application, recertification or renewal, and change of addresses. The Project ... offers technical assistance.” The National Voting Rights Institute and the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights Under Law have recently become co-administrators of this initiative.

The stated purpose of Project Vote is to work within the system, using conventional voter mobilization drives and litigation to secure the rights of minority and low-income voters under the U.S. Constitution. However, the organization's actions indicate that its true agenda is to overwhelm, paralyze, and discredit the voting system through fraud, protests, propaganda and vexatious litigation. In this respect, Project Vote is following the so-called "crisis strategy" or Cloward-Piven Strategy pioneered during the Sixties by Columbia University political scientists Richard Cloward and Frances Fox Piven.
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6966

The Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN, is the nation's oldest and largest grassroots organization of low and moderate income people with over 200,000 members in over 90 cities. For 35 years, ACORN members have been organizing in their neighborhoods across the country around local issues such as affordable housing, safety, education, improved city services, and have taken the lead nationally on issues of affordable housing, tenant organizing, fighting banking and insurance discrimination, organizing workfare workers, and winning jobs and living wages.

Over the last decade, ACORN chapters have been involved in over fifteen living wage campaigns in our own cities, leading coalitions that have won living wage or minimum wage ordinances in St. Louis, St. Paul, Minneapolis, Boston, Oakland, Denver, Chicago, Cook County, New Orleans, Detroit, New York City, Long Island, Sacramento and San Francisco.

In addition, we have led coalitions to win statewide minimum wage increases in five states - including the huge 71% ballot victory in Florida in November 2004 - which delivered a raise to an estimated 850,000 workers. ACORN is following up that exciting victory by promoting a National Campaign to Raise the Minimum Wage through states and cities. This campaign includes cutting edge efforts to win citywide minimum wage increases - as well as ambitious statewide minimum wage ballot initiatives in the battleground states of OH, MO, AZ and CO for November 2006.

In 1998, ACORN established the Living Wage Resource Center to track the living wage movement and provide materials and strategies to living wage organizers all over the country.
http://www.livingwagecampaign.org /



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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
23. That's a really nice post, maddie.
:-) :hug:
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
25. Thanks, maddiejoan.
I might add that I think Reagan's strength was in getting mostly older people behind him, whereas Barack is usually perceived as mobilizing the youth. Whether that energy continues or fizzles out after the initial burst of enthusiasm remains to be seen.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Guess we'll find out!
At this point, I'd be quite happy with Obama as our next President.

Not as happy as I'd be with Hillary --but still --quite happy.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
31. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't get the "comparison"....
because no one is posting Hillary's record of having "changed" stuff? :shrug:

Obama "gave" us a voice against Iraq, when there weren't many out there....


Delivered on 26 October 2002 at an anti-war rally

I don’t oppose all wars. And I know that in this crowd today, there is no shortage of patriots, or of patriotism. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other arm-chair, weekend warriors in this Administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income – to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.

That’s what I’m opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.

Now let me be clear – I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity.

He’s a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.

I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.

I am not opposed to all wars. I’m opposed to dumb wars.

So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the president today. You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s finish the fight with Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to make sure that the UN inspectors can do their work, and that we vigorously enforce a non-proliferation treaty, and that former enemies and current allies like Russia safeguard and ultimately eliminate their stores of nuclear material, and that nations like Pakistan and India never use the terrible weapons already in their possession, and that the arms merchants in our own country stop feeding the countless wars that rage across the globe.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to make sure our so-called allies in the Middle East, the Saudis and the Egyptians, stop oppressing their own people, and suppressing dissent, and tolerating corruption and inequality, and mismanaging their economies so that their youth grow up without education, without prospects, without hope, the ready recruits of terrorist cells.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to wean ourselves off Middle East oil, through an energy policy that doesn’t simply serve the interests of Exxon and Mobil.

Those are the battles that we need to fight. Those are the battles that we willingly join. The battles against ignorance and intolerance. Corruption and greed. Poverty and despair.

The consequences of war are dire, the sacrifices immeasurable. We may have occasion in our lifetime to once again rise up in defense of our freedom, and pay the wages of war. But we ought not – we will not – travel down that hellish path blindly. Nor should we allow those who would march off and pay the ultimate sacrifice, who would prove the full measure of devotion with their blood, to make such an awful sacrifice in vain.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama's_Iraq_Speech




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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. How does that speech differ from Hillary's speech
on the Senate Floor on October 10th of 2002

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSu0zXCR9sE

I mean --apart from the fact that it's written better.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Hillary repeated Bush's lies about the threat Iraq posed
and voted for it. Big difference.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. where is the speech different?
and where exactly does Obama even mention the IWR vote?
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. The part where Hillary repeats Bush's lies about Iraq's WMD's and ties to Al Qaeda.
Obama doesn't. Link a transcript and I can quote it if you like.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. She had different information than Obama
by which I mean --Obama had no information at all, and even has said he doesn't know how he would have voted had he been given the information that the Senators had.

In any case --please point me to the portion of Obama's speech where he said the IWR was something to vote against.

Here's a link to Hillary's speech. Though you will only cherry pick it to death --both talk about "dumb wars" both talk against "preemptive war"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4329338&mesg_id=4329338
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. She voted for what he specifically called a "dumb war"?
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. IWR
was not a vote for the war.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Funny, cause it could have fooled me, millions of others and
George Bush. They all thought that the resolution titled.....

Authorization to use Military Force against Iraq
http://www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf

See section three, at above link; at the President's discretion.


Maybe she could have voted for the Levin Amendment, at the very least....but she didn't.


Remember, the Levin amemdment; The Forgotten Choice?
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/01/opinion/01chafee.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Read
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
49. If we look past the throne -- which has the draw to help down ticket races?
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Both
How's that for an answer.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #52
61. Its an answer!
:hi:

Have a good weekend, Maddiejoan! :)
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #61
67. You too, hon
:)
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OneSelf Donating Member (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
51. Great post!
Cheers.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
53. Here, I fixed your post
Hillary = Work to Accomplish Change.

Obama = Inspire People to Work for Change.

Their is no I in team.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. No I had it right
I don't see Obama inspiring people to 'work' for change.

I see him inspiring people to want it though.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Then you aren't watching his speeches or have read his community service proposals...
Edited on Sat Feb-09-08 07:31 PM by Bread and Circus
Nor has he been elected yet.

I think you are just uninformed.

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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. wrongo
I have watched his speeches on the internets and read his books and all of that. I try to stay informed.

I agree that he is trying to inspire people to work for change --I just see no evidence that he in fact DOES inspire them to work for change

That's more from talking to supporters.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Two words: Cluster Bombs.
Edited on Sat Feb-09-08 07:45 PM by Bread and Circus
Is that the kind of "work to accomplish change" we want?

In case your memory fails you in 2006 there was an amendment put forth to the Senate that would ban use of cluster bombs in civilian areas. Clinton voted against the ban. Obama voted for the ban.

But that's not even the half of it, time and time again on foreing policy Clinton has chosen Hawkish positions and Hawkish advisors. She also won't disclose her tax returns, nor swear off lobbyists, or disavow earmark abuse to private corporations and defense contractors. . She has worked against Obama in order to block greater transparency in government. Further, she is a member and current leader of the DLC, whose policies are part of what has gotten us into the predicament we are in now (NAFTA, Chinese Free trade, outsourcing to India). But don't take my word for it go to www.fpif.org or more specifically http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4803

First you have to "WANT" change in order to "work to accomplish change".

On the other hand the notion that you fail to see that Obama is motivating people to make change doesn't mean it's not there.

p.s. Cluster Bombs that fall unexploded become de facto landmines which maim, dismember, and slaughter thousands of children and other innocent civilians and villagers. Partly because they look like silver toys to children. Why in the world would Clinton, champion of children, vote AGAINST a ban on such evil. I am proud to say Obama voted for that ban.

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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. What you fail to mention is
that over 50 nations currently use cluster bomb technology, and the newer cluster bombs that are used by the United States are far more advanced (less prone to non detonation) then the one's used by the other nations. Limiting their use (Obama did not vote to Ban them --the Feinstein/Leahy amendment merely limits their use --it does not stop them) places our troops at greater risk where cluster bombs are used by other forces (very prevalent in the Mid East)

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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. What part of Civilian Areas don't you understand?
This is a strange Democratic Party indeed when we have people like you rationalizing the slaughter of children.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Obama's vote
doesn't prevent it either.

Nobody's vote does. Read the amendment.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. And most Democrats voted for that ban. Clinton sided with the Republicans.
There's your change.

Spin all you want. You are still wrong.

Good bye.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Good bye
your position is disingenuous and places too much importance on an amendment to a funding bill.


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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
55. No mention of Bill there. Regardless of whose name is on the ballot...
I think it's pretty silly to do any kind of evaluation of Hillary that omits Bill from the equation. And no, just because he was a decent but flawed president doesn't mean a) that his flaws are irrelevant, or b) that he will make an equally decent first spouse.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. Why would I mention Bill Clinton?
I'm supporting Hillary Rodham Clinton.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #59
69. It's a two-fer. Like it or not. So that is relevant.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
68. here's something different....
although it does require reading...

http://www.illinoistimes.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3a2984
MARCH 11, 2004:
Barack Obama banks on his progressive legislative record to win a seat in the U.S. Senate. Is that enough for Illinois voters?

By Todd Spivak
Despite his weary voice, Obama began the day with an extra bounce in his step. Just weeks before the election, he suddenly became the front-runner in most statewide polls for the first time since announcing his candidacy in January 2003. The Chicago Tribune had endorsed him in that day's paper, calling him "one of the strongest Democratic candidates Illinois has seen in some time."
-------------------------------------------------------
Obama, 42, graduated from Columbia University and Harvard Law School, where he became the first African-American president of the prestigious Harvard Law Review. He journeyed to Chicago as a civil-rights attorney and community activist. In 1992, during Bill Clinton's first presidential campaign, Obama was director of Illinois Project VOTE!, a massive voter-registration and education drive credited with helping elect Carol Moseley Braun to the U.S. Senate.

In 1996 Obama was elected to the state Senate, representing Chicago's 13th District. He teaches constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School, and lives with his wife, Michelle, and two daughters in a high-rise building overlooking Lake Michigan just outside the U. of C. campus in Hyde Park.

Although Obama has achieved much during his tenure in Springfield, he is counting on his stellar performance in the legislative session last spring to catapult him ahead of the pack in the March 16 primary.

Obama rode a publicity wave by sponsoring such legislation as a bill banning the use of the diet supplement ephedra, which killed a Northwestern University football player, and another one preventing the use of pepper spray or pyrotechnics in nightclubs in the wake of the tragic deaths of 21 people during a stampede at the now-notorious E2 nightclub in Chicago.

Other legislation sponsored by Obama was monumental for the state and the entire country, according to one political ally, House Majority Leader Barbara Flynn Currie, D-Chicago. "Barack passed some particularly outstanding legislation last year that reflects his progressive values and progressive ideals," Currie says.

Obama's bill requiring police to record interrogations of homicide suspects was the first of its kind in the country. It has been hailed as the most far-reaching reform the Illinois legislature has passed in its efforts to repair a crippled criminal-justice system.

With another bill, Obama sought to combat racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of stopped motorists. In accordance with the new law, the collected data will be forwarded to the state Department of Transportation, which will analyze the information to determine whether motorists are being pulled over on the basis of race.

Other significant Obama-sponsored legislation expanded the Kid Care program to take in an additional 20,000 children who lacked health insurance, provided an estimated $26 million in tax relief to low-income families by making the state Earned Income Tax Credit refundable, and protected the state Open Meetings Act by requiring public bodies to tape closed-door meetings.
-----------------------------

More surprisingly, Obama has garnered significant union support that had been expected to go to Illinois Comptroller Dan Hynes, whose father, former Senate leader and Chicago ward boss Thomas Hynes, had deep ties to organized labor. The Service Employees International Union; the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees; and Illinois' second largest teachers' union all have endorsed Obama.

http://www.illinoistimes.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3a2984
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