There is a far greater disenfranchsiment if Florida is seated

[Perky]

Going into the florida primary everyone understtod that the votes would not count. Hundreds of thousands og people stayed away from the polls on that basis.

To turen around and now say that the ballots that were cast suddenly count is disenfranchising to the people who were told by the Florida Democratic Party and the local that it was nothing more than a straw poll that had no bearing on the result.


To npow seat the delgation based on the outcome of that election...is a bait and switch...a deception it should not stand as the election of record.

Is this not a democracy. Should not the votes of all who think thier votes should matter have the oppotunity to vote?

[hiaasenrocks]

1. I think you have a good point, however, the people who did not vote

made that decision themselves. I don't think that fact makes you wrong, it just makes the case a little less black and white, in my opinion.

(Requisite disclaimer: No, I don't support The Clintons.)

[lligrd]

4. I Agree That A Better Decision Should Have Been Made

up front. Maybe they could have just lost a percentage of delegates. But changing the rules now is just wrong.

[hiaasenrocks]

5. I agree. The whole thing stinks. But, as you said, the rules are the rules.

Maybe there should be a re-vote. And one in Michigan as well. At the very least, it will make for some good TV. :)

[lligrd]

13. I'd Go Along With That

Leave it up to the states, a new vote or no delegates. I'd be pissed at my elected officials if I lived in either of those states. Maybe this will mobilize the democrats in those states.

[hiaasenrocks]

16. "Do over!" :) .... n/t

[truedelphi]

36. I like the idea of a re-vote n/t

[DaLittle Kitty]

55. SEAT NOOO DELEGATES... BOTH CANDIDATES VIOLATED THE Agreement!

Hillary had paid staff and a BIG PARTY AT THE FLORIDA STATE CONVENTION... CLEAR CUT VIOLATION... OBAMA RAN COMMERCIALS... ON CNN. Only one who DID NOT VIOLATE RULES was Edwards........

So I do not want to hear any plans to count the MOTHERFUCKING BULLSHIT VOTES FROM EITHER FLORIDA OR MICHIGAN...

[Perky]

6. People should not have to upset their daily schedult to participate

in a civic duty that has no bearing on the presidency.

That is what they were told...That is what the DNC said, That is what the statet party said. That is what the media presented to the people.

It is unreasonable to expect them to show up to vote under those circumstances.

[hiaasenrocks]

10. Why was there a record turnout?

[NoBorders]

20. People were coming out to vote on an important property tax initiative

It was a big deal in FL.

[hiaasenrocks]

23. And?

When they got to the polls, they just skipped the Presidential Primary section?

The OP said: "Should not the votes of all who think thier votes should matter have the oppotunity to vote?"

They did have the opportunity. Every registered voter in Florida did. Some chose, on their own, not to vote. That's their responsibility.

[Perky]

25. What about people who did not own property?

[hiaasenrocks]

29. Did they not have the right to vote?

Did they not have the opportunity?

Are they not responsible for the decision they made to NOT go to the polls?

You're acting as though there were people who were locked in a cell somewhere and not allowed to vote.

[Perky]

43. They were told the cote woulod not matter...By the stte...By the party

by the media

[hiaasenrocks]

51. So, in other words, they were not denied the right or opportunity.

Again, if you can present any information to the contrary, let me know.

[Perky]

56. Thet were told thatit would not count towards nominating the next nomiee

Do you deny that?

[K Gardner]

35. Did you not know that people turned up at their polling places on Feb 5th to vote? That Floridians

called the registrar's office, hundreds of them, asking when they could vote? This was reported in Florida and on the national news, all channels. What about those people? And the others who didn't think they needed to go?

[Thrill]

2. Its going to be hard to keep Hillary and her crew from stealing this nomination

[busymom]

3. Oh Come on guys...

It's not like a handful of people showed up...it was a recordbreaking 1.8 million dems or something....The people demanded to have their voices heard even though their party screwed them over.

[lligrd]

8. But The Candidates Didn't Get To Campaign There And

that puts the lesser known at a distinct disadvantage. It is too late to change the rules.

[busymom]

11. He campaigned there...

His national ads ran there...Hillary had no ads.

[lligrd]

14. Hillary Went In Person

But neither broke the rules. Give it up.

[ArkySue]

44. Hillary DID NOT CAMPAIGN there

She attended some fundraisers, as did Obama and others. That's allowed. What ISN'T ALLOWED is campaigning, i.e. RUNNING ADS ON TEEVEE. Obama DID do that in violation of the rules about no campaigning in Florida.
And don't give me the BS about it being a "national ad" and couldn't be helped. Seems Edwards and Clinton didn't have any problem not airing ads in Florida.
Frankly, I think Obama bought "national ads" for the exact reason that they WOULD be shown in Florida.

Hey Florida, Hey Michigan! Obama thinks your votes shouldn't count! So don't bother showing up in Novemeber.

[Perky]

12. Of course they do. but given the peole who did not show up

because they were told it did not matter and then to tell them it does matter but they can no longer vote...is reprehensible.


That is a lawsuit wating to happen/ THe people...all the people have a right to be heard.

[UALRBSofL]

17. Perky I don't know where you got the idea we were told our votes didn't count

This came after the fact. And yes, people are not happy.

[Perky]

22. Oh Please... People were told that Florida lost their delegates.

People were never officially told that the results of the beauty contest might actually wind up counting.

[seafan]

39. We Floridians were told last August that it was going to be just "a beauty contest."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/25/AR2007082500275.html?hpid=topnews">DNC Strips Florida Of 2008 Delegates

No Convention Slots Unless Later Primary Is Set

By Michael D. Shear
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, August 26, 2007; Page A01

The Democratic National Committee sought to seize control of its unraveling nominating process yesterday, rejecting pleas from state party leaders and cracking down on Florida for scheduling a Jan. 29 presidential primary.
The DNC's rules and bylaws committee, which enforces party rules, voted yesterday morning to strip Florida of all its delegates to the 2008 Democratic National Convention in Denver -- the harshest penalty at its disposal.

The penalty will not take effect for 30 days, and rules committee members urged officials from the nation's fourth-most-populous state to use the time to schedule a later statewide caucus and thus regain its delegates.

.....

Asked what Hillary Rodham Clinton's plans are for the state, Harold Ickes, a DNC member and adviser to the New York senator, said, "I don't think anyone's going to answer that question, or cross that bridge, until we see what happens in the next 30 days."
Bill Burton, a spokesman for Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.), said, "Hopefully, in the next 30 days, Florida and the DNC can reach agreement so Florida's delegates can contribute to the nomination contest."

Florida's state party chair, Karen L. Thurman, showed no signs of backing down yesterday. The former congresswoman said she will consult with state Democrats but added that she expects all the presidential candidates to ignore the national party's edict and campaign vigorously in advance of the Sunshine State's primary.
"Whether you get a delegate or don't get a delegate, a vote is a vote," a defiant Thurman said. "That is what Floridians are going to say is important."

The DNC rules stipulate that states that have not been granted a special waiver must schedule presidential nominating contests after Feb. 5.

.....

Though the DNC's action was well-telegraphed, it came after emotional pleas from state party leaders, who blamed the initial selection of the date on Republicans who control the legislature. Thurman said she and her staff spent "countless hours" trying to persuade the legislature to pick another date.

.....

Under the caucus alternative proposed yesterday, voters could still go to the polls on Jan. 29 to express their preferences for a presidential nominee, but the results would be ceremonial, much like the results of the Republican straw poll held in Ames, Iowa, this month.

"It's essentially a beauty contest. . . . There are no delegates now," said Alexis Herman, co-chair of the rules committee.

Thurman and other state leaders said there are several problems with the caucus suggestion.
She said a caucus could cost the state party as much as $8 million -- money she said the party and its benefactors do not have. She said a caucus in a state the size of Florida would be impractical and would have the effect of allowing far fewer people to participate.
State party officials also said they prefer to keep the official voting on Jan. 29 because a property tax initiative they hope to defeat will be on the ballot that day. Turning the Democratic presidential primary into a meaningless event would probably mean lower turnout among the party's faithful and make it harder to defeat the initiative, they said.

"Defeating a horrible referendum on Jan. 29 . . . is a top priority for every constituent group I am aware of," said Terrie Brady, a DNC member and former chair of the Florida state party.

.....

And that very important, but damaging Property Tax Amendment referendum on the ballot? It passed. And that was likely due to the fact that many voters stayed home because they already knew their vote in the Democratic primary on that same day was worthless.


So, thanks, Ms. Karen Thurman and Florida Democratic Party leaders. You turned Florida's Democratic primary into a meaningless event AND we couldn't defeat the Tax Referendum. A two-fer.

You are utter fools.

[thoughtcrime1984]

59. Lie

This was announced WAY before FLA's election!

[Coexist]

15. there was a Constitutional Amendment on property taxes

that filled my voicemail and mailbox for weeks. Commercials galore. Most homeowners made sure to get out and vote.

[jab105]

7. The ONLY solution is to have a caucus for those two states at the end. n/t

n/t

[ArkySue]

46. NO CAUCUSES!!

How many of the record number of voters will get to participate in a caucus. Caucuses are inherently exclusionary in that many voters would not be able to attend. There is no early voting, no absentee voting (leaves out our military serving everywhere). Many elderly voters (and there's a lot of them in FL) would not be able to participate in a 2 hour, intensive meeting.
Add the fact that Florida, and Michigan, have never held caucuses before and you're looking at a real messed up situation.

Count the people's votes. It's the Democratic thing to do. Enough of voter dis-enfranchisement!

[Xipe Totec]

9. Sure let's stand on formality

Tell the Florida voters they needn't bother to show up in november either.

That'll learn them.

[Fresh_Start]

18. No, it was the highest turnout of democratic voters in FL history

for any primary.
so there isn't any real indication that people stayed home.
1.7 million people came out to vote.

[Perky]

19. does not matter if 17 or 1.7 Million voted

We have had massive uptick across the coutnry. People were told by offical in the party and in state government that it was a beauty contest.


If one voter was disenfranchised because they now want the election to be valid...that is one to many. You have to allow people the right to vote when the election is one that has cosequencex.

[Fresh_Start]

21. people can't vote in primaries all the time

for example, I could never vote in NY primaries even though I lived there for and was a registered voter.

You think discounting 1.7 million actual votes for some unknown but definitely smaller number of votes is fair?

[hiaasenrocks]

26. They DID have the "right to vote"

And when you said: "Should not the votes of all who think thier votes should matter have the oppotunity to vote?" you're clearly missing the fact that they not only had the right, they had the opportunity. What they DID NOT have, apparently, was any personal responsibility.

[Perky]

34. and you are ingnoring th cact that every floridian who cvted or did not vote

was told that it did not matter. Suddnenly it might and they have no recourse.

If the ballot said in effect they were choosing delegates.. It was faudulent on the fact... If it said it was a straw poll. you can not change the impact after the fact.

[hiaasenrocks]

38. Once again, if you can demonstrate how people in Florida

were denied the right or opportunity to vote, I'll sign on with your view.

[Perky]

41. They were told it would not count. That is all that matters.

[hiaasenrocks]

52. If that's all that matters...

then why do you keep using the words "right to vote" and "opportunity to vote"?

They were denied neither.

What happened was: MANY people voted, some did not, and those who fall into the latter category made a CHOICE not to vote.

[Perky]

57. I never used "right to vote"

No one was denied the right to vote. they were told their vote was meaningless....

SOme folks want to change the rules after the election and that is when the right and opportunity ar denied.

This has to be fully resolved before the convention because it will create a blood bath...If Obama is ahead on delegates and Hillary tries to have the delegates seated.

[UALRBSofL]

27. OK, then in the GE we'll be sure not to turn out since our vote doesn't count

:)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

50. What A Crock Of Shit.

"If one voter was disenfranchised because they now want the election to be valid...that is one to many."

Oh give me a break. Every damn election there are people who couldn't take off of work, got sick, couldn't make it to the polls, etc. Under your terms every single election has inaccurate results and the results should therefore never be used. How ridiculous.

There's a 300,000 vote differential here. That's HUGE. There's no reason to believe that those who stayed home would've overwhelmingly voted for Obama. No reason to believe that. Zip. Nada. None.

This was a completely fair election and the fact that it was a record breaking one, with 1.7 million people letting their voices be heard, and no reason whatsoever to believe that any other voters who didn't vote would've leaned heavily one way or the other, makes it completely legitimate and the only disenfranchisement would be if those 1.7 million voters DID NOT have their vote count.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

53. if Fl delegates are seated, then the DEM party colluded with Billary n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

58. If The FL Delegates Aren't Seated, Then Obama Is An Alien Clone Here To Eat Our Children.

[RiverStone]

24. If the DNC allows FLA or MI to be seated...

It will certainly cost Hil the nomination. Can't change the rules in the middle of the game!

Way too many folks would be so pissed off, that it would slam her chances in the upcoming states.

Fine with me. Speed up Obama's nomination!

[Perky]

31. It would also mean lawsuits from the disenfranchised Floridian

[truedelphi]

37. But we won't know if the votes really count until the convention?

Correct me if I am wrong.

So it won't matter how much people are pissed off - if Hillary uses the MI andd FLA votes to get the mnomination, people can be as pissed as they want, but won't have any way to show their outrage other than handing the win to McCain.

[mohc]

28. One of the great tragedies

That was brought on by this debacle was the result of the property tax amendment that passed during the Florida Primary. While the national media focused on Guiliani's demise, Edwards departure, and the revocation of the Democratic delegates, the lead story here in Palm Beach county that night was the passage of the property tax amendment. Everyone assumed it was going to fail, many polls showed it failing. The amendment needed 60% to pass, the polls showed it around 45%. And then election night it passed. Why? Because Democratic turnout, while high, was much lower than what it should have been compared to the Republican turnout. No doubt this was because of the party's decision to move up the date in violation of the rules. To add insult to injury, the opposition to this amendment by state Democrats was the main reason they gave for not changing the date after they set it. The argument was that if they had the Democratic primary on a different date, they would no show up in January to oppose the amendment during the Republican primary. Anyway I just wanted to rant about how messed up this all was.

And my 2¢ on seating the delegates. The local news covered the Republican contest as one would expect, but the Democratic contest was an after thought. The primary night Clinton's "victory" celebration was the 6th story, coming only after the amendment, McCain's win, Rudy's demise, Romney's defeat, and Huckabee. As a general rule, I am hesitant to take a position that denies voter's a voice, but there was no Democratic race here, no campaign. What we saw that night was basically an expensive opinion poll, with 0% MoE.

[RockaFowler]

30. A little more information about Florida's election

The Democrats in Florida voted for who they wanted. More people turned out for this primary than ever before. Over 40% of Democrats. Why should those people be disenfranchised?? I voted for John Edwards. That vote should count. The 700,000 people that voted for Hillary should count as well. The DNC is wrong on this. They should have said - you cannot campaign in Florida. After the primary ended, they should have let the votes count. I am sick of the crappy way that we the people of Florida have been treated. From 2000 to 2004 to today. Stop the insanity here, or we will never win an election as Democrats again!

[Perky]

32. They were told the election was meaningless becuase the DNC has stripped FL

That is all that matter.

You can not change the rules after the cact and disenfranchise people who were told that the "primary" held no value.

[Capn Sunshine]

33. This makes too much sense

Don't tell the Borg; you'll be assimulated.

But yeah, kinda "Funny" how everyone was told "nothing will count" so many campaigns took them at their word and devoted resources elsewhere.

Except one.

[Maribelle]

40. #1 It is incorrect for you to say everyone understood that the votes would not count

#2 You are also incorrect that hundreds of thousands of people stayed away from the polls on the basis.

#3 Again you are incorrect in your claim that the FDR and the Local said it was nothing more than a straw poll that had no bearing on the result


I do know the the truth will probably hurt you, but here it is anyway:


September 23, 2007 - - FDP made the announcement that the January 29th elections WILL be binding! This means that every Floridian will have their vote counted.

January 24, 2008 - - All the Democratic presidential candidates still in the race will be on the ballot, according to the Florida Democratic Party, and state and Leon County party officials are encouraging Democrats to vote

January 27, 2008 - - “The votes will count and that’s the thing we keep trying to convince people of is the votes will count,” said Browning. “When we get through with that election, we will certify that election and then it will be up to the Democratic National Committee or the Republican National Committee to decide what to do with those votes.” If and when that happens, Florida’s election leaders vow to be ready. “What we want to do is—regardless of when the election is held—we want to conduct that election with the very highest standards, make sure we get accurate, right numbers and get it certified timely,” said Browning.

January 28, 2008 - - "I believe that it absolutely will happen," Florida Democratic Party Chairwoman Karen Thurman said. "Our voices do count and we're going to be heard and we're going to vote."

January 29, 2008 - - Governor Crist The Florida primary is a day for the people, and the nation is waiting to hear what Floridians have to say.

[Hippo_Tron]

42. I think having new primaries would be the best solution

[flyarm]

45. there was only one candidates commericals coming into Fla and those were for Obama.

and i as well voted for Edwards as he was viable..his decision to suspend may have been partly a result of the Florida election..a re-do will negate my vote and not allow me to vote for who i wanted primary day.

I also worked at 2 precincts and then did a rally on the streets for Edwards..

it is I and those who voted for Edwards who would now be disenfranchised if a re-vote were to occur..i did not vote for the other two, because i did not like them..i would now be basically forced to vote for them if i wanted my vote to count in the primary if there was a re-do..well that does not sit well with me..i followed the rules as were laid out by the state and the florida democratic rules...well my vote was supposed to count on Jan 29th. at least i thought my vote was going to count, i stood on a line over an hour to make it count!

if this vote does not count why bother voting in the future?..why bother standing in line and following rules as a voter if the party can change the rules mid stream?

i have worked as a poll watcher..and seen people here stand in line in the heat, in early vote and the general for up to 5 hours..who the heck wants to ever vote again if the rules get changed after the fact?

fly

[Perky]

47. So what?

Stop trying to change the subject.

[dsc]

48. There was an incredibly important property tax vote on that ballot

so no one stayed home. The turnout proves that.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

49. Oh What Utter Bullshit.

And what makes you think that hundreds of thousands stayed away? What makes you think that out of whatever number it was of those that stayed away, that the split in how they would've voted would've been any different than those that DID show up?

Hey, here's some news for ya: 1.7 MILLION fucking people voted that day. Record breaking. Well over double what voted in 2004. You trying to make a claim that hundreds of thousands stayed home? Those numbers would tend to indicate otherwise.

Furthermore, since there are no factors whatsoever to suggest that one side's voters would've been more apt to stay home than the other side's, is it not reasonable to assume that for the most part, they would've broken out similarly to the 1.7 MILLION PERSON SAMPLE that was done?

There was more than a 300,000 vote difference. More than 1.7 MILLION people voted. Record breaking. More than double the numbers of 2004. You're going to seriously have the audacity to sit here and attempt to claim that the intent of the voters WASN'T heard? That the state of Florida DIDN'T let their voice be known? You've gotta be kidding me.

1.7 MILLION fucking voters. 300,000 vote difference between the candidates. THAT's called disenfranchisement, if you don't seat them. Your ridiculous notion that the unknown number of people who stayed home would've swayed the results somehow, is just beyond insane.

[cooolandrew]

54. I know what is going on in DC do they not understand the word democracy. It should be re-voted.