Where will the Arab and Israel-first Jewish votes go?

[Mairead]

Will his all-sides-of-every-issue stances lose Kerry both of them?

At the meeting, attended by the heads of major Jewish groups and Jewish politicians, he also repeated what he said in the televised debate earlier on Sunday: that the barrier Israel is erecting to separate Palestinian territories from Israeli ones is a fence, not a wall.

...

Mr. Kerry "said he'd push other Arab countries harder" to help bring a new Palestinian partner to the negotiating table, Mr. Rosen said. "But the question is whether a different set of politicians, as well meaning as they are, will be asking Israelis to give something up with no one on the other side to respond to them."

Mr. Rosen, a longtime Democrat who gave $100,000 in so-called soft money to the Republican National Committee in 2002 to show support for the administration's Israel policy, said he did not expect to decide whom to support until November.

He also said that if American Jews continued to see terrorism as a priority, particularly terrorism against Jews, "it will be harder for Democrats to maintain the high percentages of the Jewish vote that they have in the past."

...

Mr. Foxman {of the ADL} said that Mr. Kerry "came very close to where the president is" on several fundamental positions. "There was very little room between him and Bush," he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/01/politics/campaign/01KERR.html

[fujiyama]

1. .

[Cassandra]

2. What do you mean by Israel-first?

Are you bringing up the dual-loyalty canard? Can I ask the same thing of the Irish?
This Jew is a Democrat who will vote for Kerry.

[Mairead]

5. I mean the Jews who, instead of starting their thought processes

by asking 'what's best for the world' as Torah and the Talmud nearly command, or even 'what's best for the Jews' as more limited thinkers are wont to do, ask only 'what's best for Israel?' and act accordingly.

Does that help?

[Cassandra]

6. Did you have any specific Jews in mind?

or are you just making a blanket statement?
Why is it that Jews are expected to put the concerns of the world above their own safety; an expectation that other populations don't have aimed at them?

[_Jumper_]

9. All Americans are expected to vote based on American interests

What makes you think that this is only expected of Jews?

[Cassandra]

10. We can't get half of the country...

(the repukes)to vote based on American interests. And who determines the specifics of American interests, anyway. Bush thinks he does but here we don't agree with him. Perhaps you are automatically assuming that what's in Israel's interests could not be in America's; oh ye of the Canadian persuasion.

[_Jumper_]

12. Response

I didn't say anything about Israel's interest conflicting with US interests. I merely said that all American groups, not just Jews as you said earlier, are expected to be patriotic and vote based on American interests, not the interest of any foreign country or entity.

The Republicans vote based on their view of American interests. There is a difference between what they do and someone voting based on a candidate's stance on a foreign issue.

It is a mindset. People that vote based on American interests attempt to to vote for policies that they think will help America the most. Those that vote based on foreign interests vote for a candidate who will help the foreign country or entity they are loyal to.

[Mairead]

18. No, why would I? Do you have specific ones in mind?

Why is it that Jews are expected to put the concerns of the world above their own safety

Who's saying that? I'm not. Depending on what you mean by 'put above', pekuach nefesh might prohibit it, for one thing. But Torah and the Talmud are fairly clear about responsibility, don't you think? For example: Who can protest and does not is an accomplice in the act (Talmud, Shabbat 54b); Shimon bar Yokhai's parable about the boat; the parable about the planting of the carob tree though it won't bear fruit during the planter's lifetime. They seem both clear and admirable, to me.

[Jai4WKC08]

7. Kerry won't lose the Jews

I'm a Jew who happens to think what's best for Israel IS what's best for the world. You know, that little thing about being a democracy? And, compared to any of her neighbors, an open, pluralistic, progressive society.

This is not to say that I believe everything Israel does is always best for Israel.

But doesn't matter. With the exception of the extremely socially conservative (who would vote for Bush in any case), the Jews will vote Democrat, just like we always do. Social justice is usually our first concern.

Fwiw--imo. Can't speak for every Jew, anymore than you would expect a member of any other minority to speak for the whole. I started to assume everyone would know that, and decided better.

Edited to add: Clark pulls in both Jews and Muslims, and was endorsed by many in both groups. Another good reason for his being VP. Thought I'd add that.

[ODBPROS]

3. He loses nothing.

People like politicians who are on both sides of the issues. it gives them a warm feeling inside, that suggest: "maybe this guy won't unilaterally start a war with a contained third world country that my Daddy didn't like and poses no threat to us".
Politicians on the fence are comforting, like seeing a warm cottage with a gentle fire after walking in the rain. Playing both sides will work for Kerry, even if you disagree with it.

[mobuto]

4. Jews will vote overwhelmingly Democratic

as they have in every election since 1924, when Harding won a narrow plurality after half of the Democrats split and voted Socialist.

[_Jumper_]

8. They will go to Kerry

Kerry's I/P policy is virtually identical to Bush's I/P policy ( support anything Israel does) so the issue is off the table. Both Jews and Arabs will vote for him based on other issues.

[David Dunham]

11. Kerry will get 80% plus of both groups.

[regnaD kciN]

13. You're probably not too far off...

Arab voters went heavily for Bush in 2000, recalling how his father's pressure on Yitzak Shamir brought about the Oslo accords, and as a protest against what they saw as the Clinton administration's tilt toward Israel. They expected Chimpy to revert to his father's evenhanded approach. When Fratboy, instead, adopted the fundy "Israel is always right" policy, many in that community viewed it as a betrayal of a key constituency. Don't look for them to vote in the same manner this time.

[mobuto]

14. Not correct

Arab Americans have traditionally voted Republican because they are much more conservative than the population at large, particularly on social issues. 2004 may be a change, as they react to perceived hostility from the Bush Administration. But they are not a demographic we can rely on in the long term.

[_Jumper_]

15. Why not?

They are in the most precarious position of any ethnic minority in America. They are not far from internment. We can lock up the Arab and Muslim vote for decades because we are the party of civil rights.

[foo_bar]

16. fascinating choice of words

They are not far from internment.
...
We can lock up the Arab and Muslim vote for decades

ouch.

[_Jumper_]

21. LMAO

:P

[DuctapeFatwa]

20. ROFL Good one Jumper!

:toast:

[Sensitivity]

17. Please stop the "all-sides" Repub stuff. It is such self-hatred among Dems

[Mairead]

19. Sorry that you don't like it. He's my senator, I helped put and keep him

in office, and that's my considered judgement of his behavior. I would like you to retract that 'Repub' charge please.

[mrgorth]

22. Great. Courting the "Likud vote".