The Dilemma (Mary Lyon)

[Tace]

Mary Lyon, From The Left -- World News Trust

It's the Feast of St. Agatha, virgin martyr from the early days of Christianity. It falls on Super Duper Tuesday this year.

I voted early this morning. Wanted to get it over with. It's been torture so far. I have been torn adunder by all this. Is this electoral waterboarding, perhaps? We're told the legendary St. Agatha herself was tortured. To death. Some might say -- "hey -- it's a GOOD torture." The anguish arises from the many fine, high-quality candidates from the Democratic Party, from the very beginning. Now it's down to two, and therein lies the dilemma. And yes. It's been torture. For us Democrats, the hardest and most painful part this year is trying to settle on the best of the best. But what do you do when each of them is a best in one way or other? Our problem is: We really like everybody, the exact inverse of what agonizes our opponents: they really don't like anybody. If ours is an embarrassment of riches, the GOP's woes stem from a richness of embarrassments. All things being equal, I'd rather have our problem.

Now that we're down to the final two, the choice is even harder. I like them both. Hillary and Barack. Obama and Clinton. I can see both of them at work, seated at the Resolute Desk. I have concerns about each, and admiration for each. Either one has the chance to make history. Kinda cool that it's coming from the Democrats, but not terribly surprising.

Unfortunately, among the partisans on our side, things have grown ferocious and shrill. Obama fans and Clinton-ites are at each other's throats. Both sides have equal merit to equal claims to the top spot. When the Democrats prevail in November, it will mean we have either the first African-American president in history, or the first woman president in history. Either way we ALL win, as Americans. Either way, we will have broken through The Greatest Glass Ceiling. Either way we will have engineered a course correction -- a major league change. So in a way, my pains are eased by a Publishers Clearinghouse sweepstakes overtone: "you may already be a winner!"

It's her brains. It's what he represents.

We'd have one of the country's most powerful intellects brought to bear in an intense and executively-focused manner upon the legions of ills presently plaguing this nation. We'd be able to bring a new, more activist view to fixing things, since Hillary Clinton has already said she's almost too impatient to roll up her sleeves in Washington and get crackin'. We already know of the tireless efforts that the smartest girl in the class has brought to the issues so far, and what ails America fairly screams for a towering intellect and boundless energy. On the other hand, we would present a most welcome switch from the face we've shown to the world for years by now. Looking outward, Barack Obama would present newness, healing, and inclusion. By his very nature, he's a uniter. Many different bloodlines flow in his veins from all corners of the world. We desperately need a new face to the world, one that offers reason, circumspection, respect, deep resonance, and positive engagement -- instead of a menacing, threatening arrogance pointing a "my-way-or-the-highway" gun at a spot between another nation's eyes.

more

http://www.worldnewstrust.com/commentary/the-dilemma-mary-lyon.html

[Radio_Lady]

1. K&R. Thanks calimary... excellent article. Also kudos to Tace.

I'll read it on my next audio show -- depends on timing -- on Friday 2/8. There are now NO incoming phone lines to AccessInfoNet, or I'd welcome you to read it yourself. They are in a information gathering sequence to figure out how the migration to digital will affect their radio station(s) and TV as well. (Long story about television conversion and not going there yet.) Thanks, and have a good week!

Radio Lady in Oregon

PS. See your PM, please, to find out how you can help out.

[Tace]

2. Cheers

[calimary]

4. Hi Radio Lady!

I appreciate that, and Thanks!

:hi:

[Tace]

3. A Kick For Mary

: )

[calimary]

5. Thanks, Tace!

Everybody I've talked to, among friends to whom I've sent this, say they're exactly like me: NO cuticles left this morning. Chewed 'em all off last night. In some cases, nails too.

[calimary]

6. Shameless kick.

Oh, God - my cuticles...

PAINFUL to type anything today...

WTF did I do last night????!?!?!? :silly: :crazy: :hangover:

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

8. Kick for...

The Writer Babe. ;-)

[calimary]

12. Oh MAN!

I've been called a lot of things, but THAT ONE is indescribably delicious!

I lost a great job once because the new supervisor who moved MY supervisor aside didn't care for me much, and always picked on my writing. The very next job I got - I suddenly started winning awards for writing. Go figure.

This is a sweet moment for me, T_S! Thank you!!!

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

7. We still have to trudge through a few more miles of mud before we reach the end

I'm trying to look for a silver lining. I'm hoping that all this debate and out-and-out fighting will transform itself into a resolve to seriously kick some GOP butt when the real mudslinging begins. Right now we, and our candidates are in training for the bigger battle that still lies ahead.

[calimary]

9. I think we'd all be wise to do that now. Because sooner or later we're all

going to HAVE TO come together. We have no choice.

I am absolutely resolved to vote for Barack if he becomes the nominee instead of Hillary. And for Hillary if she winds up as the last one standing.

I just hope everyone else here who's wavering or upset or feeling alienated or confused or discouraged can eventually come to that conclusion too. I'm seeing more distress in the posts today around here.

No two ways about it - this IS a dilemma!

[Lone_Star_Dem]

11. It is a disaster

But have you encountered the same level of distress among your local Democrats? In my county meet up, we're not all in agreement as to who we're going to vote for in the primary either. Yet we're not anywhere near the point of coming to blows over it. Also, I don't know one person who is entertaining the idea of sitting out if their choice doesn't get the nomination. Far from it actually, our membership has been growing at a steady pace since last November. We're energized and committed to doing our part. Most importantly we all realize that if it comes down to either one of our two choices we'd pick ours over theirs hands down.

I really hope that this is the predominate mindset among Democrats across the US. We have too great choices and either one is better than the alternative.

[calimary]

18. They're rather combative in some spots.

My daughter, in the Pacific Northwest in college: Mom! DON'T vote for Hillary! NOBODY I know likes her!!!

My son, in - well, of course, an all-boys high school: Mom! DON'T vote for Hillary! I just canvassed the entire senior class - since they're the ones who are old enough to vote. They HATE Hillary!

And it goes farther than that. Our neighbors who did an about-face and put up an Obama sign after a shared LIFETIME of rigid, relentless republi-CON-ism (to the point of snarky remarks when I finally got to the point where I could actually afford a nicer car. They came out to look at it and started needling me - hey, you better watch out - before you realize it you're gonna start voting REPUBLICAN!!! nyuk-nyuk-nyuk...) were very mellow about it but - man, if you brought up the name "Hillary" - you got blistered.

VERY polarized around here.

[EFerrari]

10. Thanks, Tace! K&R

[calimary]

13. Luv U!

Cheers and Many Hugs!

from the "C.C.D." - calimary conundrum department

:hi:

[EFerrari]

14. Kick @ss and take names, my dear!

:kick:

[calimary]

17. I hear and obey!

:patriot:

[H2O Man]

15. Nominated.

Very good! Thank you for posting it.

[calimary]

16. Thank you for kicking it!

And dammit, the calimary conundrum CONTINUES.

I STILL don't know who I like best. I voted for one of the two. But I was happy to hear of both their triumphs last night, and while I remain confused and perplexed and frustrated, I was happy for everybody on ourside who was cheering. I'd still be happy to vote for either one. Can I vote twice?

Dammit.

What I hate most is the toll this takes on my hands. I somehow still have fingernails, but the cuticles around them are raw as hell! Gonna take about a week before everything's healed over, I think. OW! Funny enough, I lost count of all my friends who are in the same predicament today. EVERYBODY's gonna be hitting the Maalox bottle before this is over.

:silly: :crazy:

[Samantha]

19. Such a thoughtful, introspective post, perhaps I should just kick

it and remain mute on my thoughts. But perhaps that would be just being too polite, and these times are not meant for simple politeness.

I am not agonizing over my decision as many here seem to be. I have certain lines I will not cross even for the perceived greater good. The salient issue (for me) in choosing a candidate has to be credibility and character. In that regard, I eliminated one some time ago and have listened very closely to the other for some time now.

I have arrived at a decision and neither the gender of one or the race of the other was a factor. To me it seems like discrimination in the reverse to anoint a person for a job because of one of these issues, especially when that job is President of the United States. The line in the sand I have drawn is absolutely not based on "if my candidate doesn't get the nomination, I will not support the other." That in itself is very childish and punitive. The fact of the matter is the two remaining standing were never both in contention for my vote. One had been eliminated for reasons stated above.

All that aside, the tenor on this website last evening was so disturbing my passion for the race is greatly diminished. We vote here in Maryland Tuesday, February 12; I will show up early and with no hesitation cast my ballot for the person I feel brings to the table the best of character, the highest level of integrity and candor, and greatest chance to bring our nation together. After February 12, regardless of how the nomination process ends, I will never look back on my vote with regret.

But I am not so sure the Dems will now prevail if the tenor of the debate does not ratchet down to a note of civility. It appears the bloodletting among the Dems has already commenced; once the general election campaign starts, the Republican leeches will hasten our political demise if we allow them. Disallowing that to happen requires an immediate suspension of the verbal castigation this Dem is heaping on that Dem. It appears to me this will not occur but rather will grow in magnitude and deepen in ferocity. In short, we Democrats are acting like the Republicans we have sat here for years and condemned for their conduct. We looked into the political abysses, well you know how that story ends....

Love your thread ... wish I could be more positive about the Dems' sprint across the finish line .. but tomorrow is another political day and perhaps when the sun comes up, we will remember who we are, and more importantly, who we are not.

Sam

[calimary]

23. Hey, Thanks, Sam!

That's the one thing that bothers me more and more every day. The more we all fight with each other instead of aiming outward at the schmucks and pirates and assholes who REALLY deserve to be on the receiving end of those barbs - the worse it's gonna go for us in November. There will be such bruised feelings among the base here and elsewhere that people who are badly needed will get frustrated and say "Pox on BOTH your houses!"

We HAVE TO unite. We just HAVE TO.

I am seriously fed up with our apparent talent for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. There are precious few things I actually admire the enemy for, but getting into the lockstep position IS one of them. They damn well unite when they need to, regardless what side feelings are stirred up. They keep their eyes on the prize ALL THE TIME. AND they learn from their mistakes - AND from others' mistakes:
From Vietnam, for example, they learned that the media MUST be controlled so the American people can't see the bodies, the dead soldiers in their flag-draped coffins, the funerals, the return to Dover AFB, the carnage and so forth. 'Cause when they lost Cronkite, as LBJ was forced to admit, they LOST. PERIOD.
From Watergate, for instance, they learned about sneakiness and secrecy, and what hurdles you have to jump in terms of "national security" excuses and obstructing justice. I mean - bush recruits FRED FIELDING, even.
From Clinton, they learned - WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES GO UNDER OATH!!!!!!!!!!! That's the ONLY way Clinton got caught in his zipper. They had him testify under oath (and he did so on camera - so we have that video to play back and relive, as often as we want. Ever see bush OR cheney interviewed for the record, under oath? Ever wonder why they refused to go on the record for the 9/11 Commission - no notes, no transcripts, no oath, and bush got to have cheney sitting with him as his "protection."

These assholes LEARN!!! And our people just - well - oh, hell, what's the point? They sure won't listen to me... (Or to anybody else in Their Base!)
Oh yeah - and that's another thing they do better than our Dems do: They listen to their base, and take its wishes seriously.

:puke: :banghead: :eyes:

[Samantha]

25. Remember your thread the other day about your Republican

neighbors? My Republican brother has called me twice about Obama. This brother is a Huckabee guy. I just posted in another thread that in the 55 years I have known this brother, I have never heard him say anything nice about a Democrat. This brother is extremely successful; he's lived all around the world, so not exactly sheltered. Total Bush* loyalist. Got the picture?

The other day he called and started off, "If the Florida and Michigan Delegates are seated at the convention because Hillary demands it, the African-Americans attending will walk off." I just posted that in another thread because I totally agree. He said it would be decades before the Democratic party could win elections again, if it severed that portion of its base. I totally agree with that as well.

The truly big thing (besides his god-awful policies) that has made Bush* an absolute failure is the stain of illegitimacy that followed him into office. I believe if something along the lines of a Let's Change the Rules in the Middle of the Election phenomenon happens, that same stain will mark the instigator of that underhanded maneuver. And should a candidate prevail, he or she will also be marked with the stain of the Scarlett letter I, as in "illegitimate" (at least in the eye of a good portion of the Democrats) and will be impaired from waging a successful campaign against the Republican. If this should happen, we will have no one to blame but ourselves.

But back to my brother, he called again this morning and once again started off talking about Obama. "The only reason he lost California last night was due to the early voting. He only lost by 10%, and that was cast in the early voting before the momentum started to erupt for him."

I found those two statements remarkable, coming from my Republican brother. But here is something even more remarkable: he was a lot kinder to the Obama campaign than many DU'ers here.

Think about that, and the statement I made earlier - if we lose this one, we can only blame ourselves. And I am not so sure we won't after last night.

The Dems can easily self-destruct on this one, if we don't start to pull our punches against each other made in the heat of our passion in the political competition. Some people who did not pull their punches last night came to DU today singing that old Shirelle's refrain, "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow?" That remains to be seen.

[calimary]

28. That's a really good point.

We've spent years, as Democrats, building our ties with the black community. Valuable years and valuable ties. I mean - look - the Congressional Black Caucus is made up of - guess what? ALL DEMS. Now that the ridiculous J.C. Watts is out of office, the republi-CONS have nobody. One of the Google listings on him describes him as a "rare breed" - an African-American who is also a GOP'er. I would NOT want to compromise that support base in any way, especially when the bad guys are hardly that interested in the black community's issues (any more than they give a rat's ass about Hispanics, really). The black community has a longtime home with the Democrats, and I don't want to see that relationship end.

I SO DEEPLY long for a woman president. But I voted for Obama. When a frank luntz-type schmuck goes on TV and says "I don't know how to beat this guy" - that ought to count for something.

And we simply MUST stop sniping at each other.

PLEASE! FELLOW DEMS! BROTHERS AND SISTERS - HOLD YOUR FIRE! Yes, I'm SHOUTING!!! Save your biggest jabs for the targets that are most deserving: the republi-CONS!!! THAT'S where we should all be focusing, anyway.

[Samantha]

29. I agree with Susan Sarandon on this

I too truly support seeing a female sitting in the Oval Office -- just not this female.... I am not a Hillary basher or hater -- I just oppose her policies. Those same policies are ones we here at DU have recoiled in horror against in the past years. Those policies have not changed. In that context, I cannot understand why people here at DU are voting for more of the same Bush* platform. It really amazes me. Why do logical people think gender is more important than position on issues in a political environment?

And the potential loss of support of the African-American base as a result of a procedural miscall -- the ramifications of that are inconceivable to this party ....

I think it's okay to debate facts like this as long as it's done in a civil manner. But you are correct in shouting and encouraging Dems to hold their fire against each other -- I hope many posters here will hear your plea and take notice of the fact that we are now operating in self-defeat mode.

Kicking for the night crowd ....

Sam

[calimary]

31. You can say that again! Funny about the Sarandon quote.

I have a very close friend who said the SAME thing. I want very much to vote for a woman for president. Just not THAT woman.

I read some stuff here and elsewhere about how Howard Dean is supposedly ready to sit them both down if we get through primary season and we're still tied up like this - and knock their heads together until somebody gives up and bails out. I hope that's true - if it comes to such a point. But I hope, even more ardently, that it doesn't come to that. I have great faith in The Good Doctor - I'm STILL a Deanie, if you really wanna know. But he's correct as you and so many others of us are, here - the circular firing squad MUST STOP. NOW!!!!!!!!!!! Before we self-immolate and there's little left to fight the war for November.

Guys - how 'bout we be leaders in this one?

It just this moment made me think of a moment with my son in the car on the way to some appointment of his, several years ago. He wanted to drive in the WORST way. He was NOT of age!!! So I'd give him driving tips, occasionally doing a "play-by-play" of how I was driving. And I remember telling him in detail about watching the road. You watch just ahead of you, of course, BUT you also have to remain aware of what's DOWN THE ROAD - maybe as much as several hundred yards ahead, so you can anticipate what to do and leave yourself plenty of maneuvering room. And of course there's the quickie side-to-side and mirrors checking, also. But it's predominantly forward - short-range, and long-range. Well, for us, we always have to keep that long-range view (November) in our sights, as well as looking ahead to just the next 24-hours.

Hugs to ya!

[Samantha]

20. Oops, sorry I forget to mention,

I highly recommend your Dilemma!

Sam

[Samantha]

21. Kicking for the night crowd

This forum is moving at such an incredibly fast pace, I believe a lot of people missed this.

Sam

[DemReadingDU]

22. a dilemna for me too

I like both of the candidates. Sure each has some negatives, but either will make a fine president. I am thankful that our primary in Ohio is on March 4th, and hopefully by then, the decision will already be made for me. :)

[calimary]

24. That's how it used to be all the time for us here in California.

But it's such a muddle that even moving our primary up didn't make any difference.

LORD I hope we're not in splinters by the convention. DAMN. I remember when Ted Kennedy gave a really serious challenge to Jimmy Carter when Carter was running for reelection. FUCKING ASSHOLE TED. Splintered the party. Jimmy prevailed at the convention, but was further damaged going into the G.E. And yes, OF COURSE there was all the other stuff that started stacking up against him - reagan, the hostages in Iran, the economy, the "malaise speech" and the rest of it. But that lovely little wedge that ol' Teddy stuck in and kept pounding farther into position did NOT help.

Wouldn't it be great if they presented you with a Partisan Peace ticket - both of them uniting as running mates? I realize, though, that even if they agreed on that in principle, we'd have a whole new fight on our hands about who gets the top bunk.

:eyes:

[Samantha]

26. I am just an old-fashioned, family values kind of woman who

believes the man should always be on top ....
:bounce:

Sam

[calimary]

27. Indeed!

:evilgrin:

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

32. It is little DU exchanges like these...

That put me in danger of an attack of the vapours. ;-)

[Skwmom]

30. Clinton failed the DC bar exam so how is she such an intellectual

genius? To infer that Clinton is smarter than Obama is ludicrous.

[calimary]

33. It's her brain that does intrigue me.

Never meant to imply that Barack does not have one also. He certainly does!!!

She's just always impressed me for the quickness of her responses, her ability to think on her feet and most of the time sound very coherent. She does have a deep grasp of issues considering the specifics she cites. She started out a long time ago saying "I believe that government can be a force for good." And I think she used the first person plural pronoun during Bill's first campaign. And for some reason, especially after a solid wall of reagan/bush for 12 years, to hear that from a politician (back then more distinguished as a politician's wife), that got burned into my mind. I've seen her since then try, if imperfectly, to apply that view in various ways when she was in position to do so, whether that meant getting some assignment from president/spouse or trying to carry out something for her constituents. Even those in the enemy camp concede she's been a good senator for New York - the whole state, not just the big city liberal enclaves. I've seen her NOT sit back and make cookies. I still have a tug-of-heart toward her because she electrified me as the first woman on the national political scene to whom I (in MANY ways smaller and slighter) could actually relate, personally. Our lives did have some parallels. And she felt pretty much like I did about issues and how you deal with them.

Obama, too, has a nimble mind - which you NEED in this particular game.

She has had more experience facing the worst the republi-CONS have ever thrown in general, or at all-things-Clinton in particular. It's merely because she's physically been on the national scene longer, and has been a target longer. He's there now but didn't start in 1991 or so. I have read a number of different observations and essays about why John Edwards presumably has not yet endorsed Obama - the supposition is that Edwards is waiting to see how hard Barack fights back, and hits back, against some of these assholes and their taste for hitting WAY below the belt. Who knows if that's true, but it's worth a moment's consideration if people start making lists - who's best of the two in the most objective, detached, and strategically beneficial ways. And also, that's the overall length of exposure I MYSELF have had to all-things-Clinton, as opposed to becoming more extensively aware of Barack Obama's credentials, background, commitments through the years, the kind of stands and attitudes he brings to the issues of present - only in the last several years. I live in California. I did not know of his accomplishments on the state level in Illinois. Give me time to finish leveling that playing field.

There are reasons on the "pro" side for both these people. I must say I tried to vote in what I thought was the most objective, detached, and strategic of ways. And I went for Obama. Much as I long to have a woman president. Well, we haven't had a president of color yet, either. That's equally compelling! And I must also say Obama has thrown some rawther delicious punches lately. And hey, unlike Harvard's MBA - that's been so badly besmirched by that IDIOT in the White House now - a Harvard law degree is still a MOST respectable item to have earned. To say you are a graduate of Harvard Law - still says a lot of good things about you, just in general. You can't be a dumb-ass and get one of those, especially if you have no blue-blood connections to drag you along from start to finish.