Lets cut the crap. If Chicago had been hit instead of NY....

[Reciprocity]

and Obama had to vote, would he have done the same thing Hillary did? It's so easy to say what you would have done when you have no blood in it. What do you think would have happened if Chicago had been hit and Obama had voted no, as he claims would have done? Voted no, after seeing the smoldering ruins and tried to give comfort to the bereaved. Would he still be a senator?

[Occam Bandage]

1. Wait. You're defending the decision to go to war with Iraq...with 9/11?

:eyes:

[neutron]

41. People in Obama's district had Radioactive Drinking Water

and Obama was supposed to go to bat for them. He introduced a bill
to force Nuclear Plants to inform the public of a Leak.

Then he took hundreds of thousands of dollars from Nuclear interests.

Then he watered down his bill until it protected the interests of the NUCLEAR industry
and not his constituents.

So why aren't we discussing THAT?

Iraq is important. But why don't we discuss something that hasn't been hashed
into the ground.

[sfam]

62. Of course! Don't you know that Saddam was responsible for 9/11? That's why Hillary voted for it!

Ridiculous thread. So Hillary HAD to vote for the war with Iraq because of 9/11?

If there was ever a case of a Hillary supporter admitting the vote was taken for political reasons, this thread is it!!!

Was this supposed to be a Hillary bashing OP, or am I misunderstanding something?

[BringBigDogBack]

69. haha

:rofl:

Rofl waffles.

Enjoy that guilty conscience.

[sidwill]

2. SOOOOOOOOO IRAQ attacked us on 9/11?

O'really.

<insert oreally Owl here>

[Tweed]

3. Sorry, no Guiliani supporters are allowed to be on this board

[Occam Bandage]

6. Apparently, now that the Ghoul is out, Hillary's going to be the new Candidate of 9/11.

[TomClash]

4. What did Iraq have to do with 9/11?

And most NYC residents opposed the War.

I was there that day, precariously perched at one point, and I'd vote for him.

[Colobo]

5. Iraq=9/11? That what Republicans say...

[VolcanoJen]

7. So you're saying "What if Sadaam hit Chicago instead of New York City?"

Is that ass-backward hypothetical really what you're employing here?

[Stephanie]

8. A million New Yorkers marched against the war on February 15, 2003

I was one of them. I live in lower Manhattan. You are talking out of your ass.

[Occam Bandage]

10. I bet most of them were aware that Iraq did not attack us on 9/11, too.

[Stephanie]

16. Thanks. I was so furious I forgot to include that.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

59. Saved me the time.

The world marched that day.

One of the most under-reported stories of the 21st century.

[HeraldSquare212]

9. Many considered Chicago and the Sears Tower potential targets

for him to stand up and speak out took courage. If Hillary had done the same and voted no, maybe other Senators would have voted no, too.

[Muttocracy]

11. A lot of NY-based soldiers are or were in Afghanistan or Iraq

(10th Mountain division) - I bet those military families would rather the mission in Afghan. had been given resources than the diversion to Iraq - and perhaps we would not still be in BOTH countries now.

[Occam Bandage]

14. We'd still be in Afghanistan had we not invaded Iraq. The difference, perhaps,

is that we'd be winning.

[Muttocracy]

18. or at least some level of progress or stability

I listened to the senate hearing on Afghanistan last week and the stats on what we're spending in Iraq vs. Afghanistan are astounding.

(edited my post above to reflect that many are or were in Iraq too).

[Occam Bandage]

24. Well, that's what I'd define as "winning" in a nation-building effort.

It's a mess, though. I hardly know what's progress. Take Balkh province. On one hand, opium production has cratered due to the expansion of rule of law, and the Taliban has no influence there. Warlords have all gone 'respectable.' On the other hand, those same warlords now rule the government, including the judiciary--people have been jailed (and even, in the most recent scandal, sentenced to death) simply for being related to journalists that publish unfavorable articles about the government. Corruption has skyrocketed. Economic stimulus plans are going into effect, but it's hard to tell if they're actually helping anything. I wonder what it would be like with a few more American liasons, a few more Americans able to protect the honest, and a few more dollars towards fixing the infrastructure and providing loans to farmers (eliminating the necessity of warlord paragovernments).

[Bongo Prophet]

50. We should buy the heroin and give it to people in places with shortage of pain meds

There is a shortage in Africa and elsewhere, including Iraq.

[Occam Bandage]

57. Purchasing opium would be a useful part of a comprehensive effort.

The only problem with it, really, is that in areas in which we have adequate presence to collect opium and protect farmers from retribution are often the same areas in which we can eradicate the crop. Still, there are areas in which I believe it would be useful.

[Bongo Prophet]

63. Thanks for the thoughtful reply - I think we should not eradicate at all

At least until world need is met.
Drugwar mentality has warped us to the point that good opiate use is thwarted by the fear and bureaucracy.
My dad's passing would have been long and painful without morphine, as well as a best friend, and a niece.

I would also repeal world treaties against cannabis and let countries trade in that as well, both medical and recreational -(ok, I'd have to control both US and UN for that, but just thinking)
But that's another issue, albeit related to freedom of self and conscoiusness ... ;)

[Tweed]

One thing is for sure

Richard M. Daley would have won the Iowa caucus and had the foresight not to start in Florida.

[blm]

12. Cut ALL the crap. 9-11 happened because the books were closed on BCCI, IranContra

and CIA drugrunning.

Who closed those books to protect Poppy Bush and his powerful cronies like Jackson Stephens, Marc Rich, AQ Khan, James Bath, various Dubai and Saudi royals and scores of other operatives?

The BCCI report was released in Dec 1992 and handed over to the outgoing Bush and the incoming Clinton.

Who is Jackson Stephens and why would Clinton choose to protect his secrecy and privilege along with BushInc's?

[GrimReefa]

13. LMAO, so this is what Hillary supporters are reduced to...

as Obama sprints towards the nomination.

I normally don't taunt other Democrats, but this post merits an exception.

Your horse is going down in flames, and this post is proof. Haha!

[madrchsod]

15. having a problem with your facts today?

iraq/saddam did not attack america -----the Saudi financiers of bin laden and his friends did.

[BooScout]

17. You're really not helping

with this post. I'm a Clinton surporter and 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq.

[Muttocracy]

20. thank you - this is why we can't stereotype supporters of candidates n/t

[rodeodance]

19. The fact that she dealt with the aftermath--the horror--was a factor in her decision. I

have said this repeatedly. It falls on deaf ears.

[VolcanoJen]

21. Hillary factored in the aftermath of 9/11 when she voted for the IWR?

I really don't think it's ever been her position that 9/11 was somehow tied to Iraq.

[Occam Bandage]

26. That she had to deal with the aftermath of Iraq's attack on the WTC?

[rodeodance]

34. You are assuming that this was a vote for war. Your premise is wrong therefore

your conclusions are wrong.
I, and others have argued repeatedly about this issue.
It is impossible to reason with blind-faith posters. Have a good day.

[Occam Bandage]

35. Are we back to claiming that "Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq" was not

a vote for war?

[rodeodance]

42. you are back there. I am not.

[Occam Bandage]

44. You just claimed that the Authorization for Use of Military Force against Iraq

was not actually a vote for war. :crazy:

[VolcanoJen]

39. Bunk.

"As opposition to the war has grown, some of the Democrats who supported it began to claim their vote was to put pressure on Iraq - that they voted merely to give the president the option to go to war. Bunk. The war resolution was a blank check. Senator Robert Byrd told his colleagues during debate on the resolution that they were "handing the president unchecked authority." The language of the resolution could not have been clearer: "The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate" against Iraq."

- Paul Begala/James Carville, "Take It Back"

[Reciprocity]

22. Of course I know Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

But yes, I do think it makes a difference on how you see things, if you had been through that experience. That it did color her view of the evidence that all the powers that be where showing at our elected officials.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

27. I don't think your OP is salvagable.

[VolcanoJen]

33. That's easily the best OP response I've read on DU in days.

Thank you for that. :-)

[Occam Bandage]

30. Yeah, I don't think you're gonna be able to spin this one back to the left. Just let

it die and be forgotten.

[PassingFair]

61. This REPUBLICAN had the guts to vote against it....

He's written a book about it:

http://www.projo.com/news/content/LInc_Chafee_01-27-08_PD8NPTK_v103.279fc7c.html

snip>

“I find it surprising now, in 2008, how many Democrats are running for president after shirking their constitutional duty to check and balance this president,” writes Chafee. “Being wrong about sending Americans to kill and be killed, maim and be maimed, is not like making a punctuation mistake in a highway bill.

“They argue that the president duped them into war, but getting duped does not exactly recommend their leadership. Helping a rogue president start an unnecessary war should be a career-ending lapse of judgment.”

Chafee was the only Republican senator to vote against prosecuting the war. “The top Democrats were at their weakest when trying to show how tough they were,” writes Chafee. “They were afraid that Republicans would label them soft in the post-September 11 world, and when they acted in political self-interest, they helped the president send thousands of Americans and uncounted innocent Iraqis to their doom." <unsnip

[Stephanie]

73. That should be Obama's speech. That sums up the case against HRC perfectly.

“They argue that the president duped them into war, but getting duped does not exactly recommend their leadership. Helping a rogue president start an unnecessary war should be a career-ending lapse of judgment.”

[PassingFair]

75. That goes for ALL of them, including LIEBERMAN.

As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't vote
for any of them if I had another choice.

[Captain Hilts]

23. Yes, it created a pressure - albeit misdirected - to be pre-emptive. nt

[leftofthedial]

25. Dude. Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9-11.

[1corona4u]

28. True dat.

:-)

[HCE SuiGeneris]

43. Yawwwnnnnnnnnn.

That is some select company you are associating with.

[still_one]

29. Excuse me? Iraq was NOT Afganistan. It had NOTHING to do with 9/11

Let's cut the crap, there were quite a few Democrats who voted against the IWR. They knew that the IWR over-rode the War Powers Act, and removed any congressional oversight of the executive branch in regard to the execution of that conflict

Obama spoke out against that vote when it occurred

Hillary voted for it

[Mojambo]

31. Way to buy into the rightwing Iraq spin. n/t

[salinen]

32. As Borat would say

"What?"

[PassingFair]

36. Oh IRONY!

Your name is RECIPROCITY!

:rofl:

[sniffa]

37. Wow.

First, I didn't know Hillary was from NYC. Second, how the fuck does that justify Iraq in any way, shape or form?

It doesn't.

[neutron]

38. The thing is, what Chimp did is unprecedented

There was no way anyone could know he would go totally apeshit.

But what I"m trying to figure is why everyone isn't talking about how Obama
took money from the Nuclear industry, then diluted his safety bill till it
protected the industry against his constituents?

I mean what if YOU had radioactive waste in your drinking water, and your
politician screwed with his bill so that you would never know?

Yesterday's topic has been hashed and rehashed.

Isn't it time to "Move On" to other subjects?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

47. Maybe you need to post it another 57 times. You just know that will work.

:eyes:

[PassingFair]

48. Yeah, who could have foreseen?

You are a dork.

Anyone watching KNEW.

The WORLD knew what the authorization meant.

[Occam Bandage]

56. Everyone knew that meant war. Everyone.

[cali]

60. bwahahahaha. No way to know what bushy would do? what utter stinking shit

I knew. My Senators both knew. My rep knew. Millions upon millions of people knew. Fuck the bullshit.

[PassingFair]

40. Let's cut the crap. If Chicago had been hit instead of NY...

Obama would have voted to bomb the shit out of CANADA.

What do you THINK would have happened if Chicago had been hit and Obama had had a chance
to vote on bombing Canada after seeing the smoldering ruins?

Good bye Toronto, THAT'S WHAT!!

:sarcasm:

[Blarch]

45. Fuck It.

[Quixote1818]

46. Is this the Sean Hannity show thread? nt

[Avalux]

49. WTF? 9/11 and Iraq are not connected!

I knew this, so did millions of others. Why didn't Miss Experience?

[LowerManhattanite]

51. You know what?

I'm a lifetime New York resident.

My wife worked on the 48th floor of 2 WTC.

By the grace of God she was late for work that day from voting in a local election and getting my stepson a sandwich for school lunch. She found herself downstairs half a block away on the phone telling her co-workers to get out when the plane hit her tower from the southwest.

I worked 11 blocks north of the towers and can recall for almost three months seeing the smoke plume from the crater from my 9th floor window. I remember the stink of death wafting as far north as Houston Street and across the East River the Brooklyn Heights on still evenings.

We lost three friends in on 9-11. Paul Benedetti, Lorenzo Ramsay and Sharon Balcom.

And I vividly recall a large number of NYers being dead set against the war in Iraq when that possibility became more concrete. We filled Broadway marching downtown and I marched with two of my children.

“No blood in it”?

The linking of 9-11 to Iraq as some sort of “okay” for feckless maneuvers is just that—“an okay for feckless maneuvers”, and a large number of NYers have been against the war from the moment it was posited as a “retaliation”. This new tack of defending Senator Clinton's vote simply smacks of desperation. It is an indefensible position, so now folks are trying to reset its rationale to give it a patina of respectability.

I'm a New Yorker who was directly affected by the attack and I'm absolutely NOT alone in my disgust for the whole idea of the Iraq war. Its waste. Its stupidity. Its criminality. And yes, the awful way it was enabled by a lot of cowardly politicians for whom my respect level has since plummeted.

[PassingFair]

67. Yea! Your post ACTUALLY DOES cut the crap!

Thank you.

Sorry for your losses, thank you for your perspective.

[Muttocracy]

76. thank you for a terrific post

[blm]

77. Thank you.

Period.

[LowerManhattanite]

78. Thank you guys...

The “pimping” of 9-11 lately as a cheap excuse for craven decisions rankles the living hell out of me and a LOT of other NYers.


The Iraq War and September 11th are TWO SEPARATE THINGS and believe it or not, MOST NY'ERS GET THAT.

We—Senator Clinton's constituents are by a huge majority against the war. I remember walking west on 23rd Street near Madison Avenue on my way to the optician with my kids when we saw the Anti-War march flowing down Broadway. We picked our way across towards 5th Avenue to the appointment, but the kids were so fascinated by the mass of people, and I figured that would be as good a chance as any to get them “involved” in a bit of activism—so we joined in and marched 10 blocks down to 14th St. and Union Square where it was amazing. The energy, the passion and most of all—the show of force. There were tens of thousands of folks there in the Square in full-throated cry over the stupidity of the war that was coming.

And this was less than two years AFTER 9-11, a mile and a half from Ground Zero.

The NY City Council—which met less than five blocks away from the smoldering pile of what was the WTC CAME OUT IN MAJORITY AGAINST THE IRAQ WAR!

These are folk who lost friends like I did, who can feel the difference in the downtown weather patterns from the loss of the buildings—who feel the odd blaze of sun on their faces because the buildings aren't there to block the sun any more. My wife worked there for over a decade. I proposed to her in the plaza near the Tobin statue in January of '01. I stood there the night before calling her on the pay phone just outside the Burger King 200 feet from Five WTC and remember how still and warm the night was.

We don't appreciate the “fear” bullshit. If Giuliani couldn't capitalize on it here (he was losing to McCain in polling here before his campaign—Thank God—imploded), what makes anybody think Sen. Clinton's gonna get any slack on it here? Dem or Gooper, you play 9-11 for votes, or sympathy, or CYA bullshit and you're gonna catch hell for it.

They need to move off this meme and either say “I made a mistake”, “I got caught up in the fervor of the time”, or “I thought I had to look strong”—something, ANYTHING but this “I did it for yoooooooooooou” crap.

Sorry for rambling—but thank you for your kind words.

best,
LowerManhattanite

[Cha]

52. You cut the crap...now.

All you're doin' is pushin' crap.

[patrioticintellect]

53. Hilliani or Giulary?

You know, I think they both wanted to be uber tough on terrorism.

[Capn Sunshine]

54. "let's cut the crap"

If Martians had zapped congress, would the Senate have over ridden Bush's veto?

It's hilarious to state let's cut the crap and then lay a huge Cleveland Steamer of a post.

[VolcanoJen]

66. ROFL

[sf_331]

55. They Didnt Attack New York -- They Attacked America

You're Wrong.

[Occam Bandage]

58. Who is "they?" Iraq?

[JackRiddler]

64. Let's cut the crap? What about your disgusting exploitation of New Yorkers?

The New York City Council voted by a 2/3 margin to recommend AGAINST an invasion of Iraq. (If you didn't even know that, then you are clueless and should keep your mouth shut.)

If they could do it, then a) they are surely reflecting what New Yorkers want and b) they are showing more integrity and courage than the total frauds who voted for the Iraq war authorization, including above all Hillary Clinton - the primary enabler on the Democratic side.

One million New Yorkers took to the streets (and were caged up by the police) in protesting the imminent invasion authorized by their fraudulent senators.

All polls showed a large majority of New Yorkers opposed the war from the start.

SO DON'T YOU **DARE** EXPLOIT THE TRAUMA OF SEPTEMBER 11th IN NEW YORK
TO JUSTIFY HILLARY CLINTON'S GREEN LIGHT FOR MASS-MURDER IN IRAQ!

The rules forbid what I'd really like to say to you. Disgusting.

[Stephanie]

72. What Jack said.

The OP is infuriating.

[ieoeja]

65. So we can count on her to do the wrong thing if we are attacked again? n/t

[newmajority]

68. Cut the crap indeed. It's not as though Hillary is FROM New York.

She had "lived" there an entire 9 months before the Bush Crime Family committed 9-11, and how much of that time did she even actually spend in the state?

[sab3rX]

70. So Iraq=9/11 now??

[TheDonkey]

71. Iraq made a mockery of 9/11 and the tragedy that occured. It was a political distraction!!!

and Hillary took the bait. I'm sorry she did. I know democrats were in a tough spot but Obama had the courage to call it like it was. Yes he was not in the same position but he was still in a politically risky spot at a time when 70% of Americans had been brainwashed to Bush's war drum.

[rug]

74. You need to cross post this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=125

[truebrit71]

79. Umm..the hijackers were from WHICH country again?

I would expect this sort of shit from folks that don't know any better, but HERE?

:eyes:

[snooper2]

80. WHAT THE FUCK DID 911 HAVE TO DO WITH IRAQ

Never thought I would see DU'ers sounding like Bush....

Fucking amazing, why did MILLIONS show up in the streets again "NO BLOOD FOR OIL"

Guess you were watching FAUX NEWS

[Jai4WKC08]

81. I think you're exactly right

Of course Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11, but that's not how the VAST majority of Americans felt at the time. Especially those who lived or worked around ground zero. I remember how my friends in NY felt. I remember how my friends around the country felt. And I remember what all the polls showed.

Too bad so many DUers have either forgotten, or they don't read well enough to realize you are talking about how people felt back, not the facts of which nation was responsible.

I wish Hillary had shown more political courage and not rationalized away her vote. But I have seen no evidence AT ALL that Obama is any more courageous. Certainly not from his voting record.