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ALago1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 09:33 PM
Original message
How could General Clark secure the nomination?
I have been a Dean supporter since June, but am currently thinking about switching my first choice to Clark. But in pondering this, it came to my attention that Clark is going to have an enormously tough time garnering the nomination.

Dean is absolutely slaughtering everyone in New Hampshire and I don't think that is going to change. Clark isn't even planning on competing in Iowa and thus will probably finish third in both states, with fairly low numbers.

Being that these first two primaries generally set the pace and course for the nomination, what could Clark's strategy be? It seems like he is relying heavily on South Carolina and is neck and neck with Edwards and Dean. If he comes in third there as well, where is there to go from there?

Any supporters or people with expertise in the primary process want to give their opinion? Thanks...
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poskonig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. Clark needs to come in second in NH.
Edited on Thu Dec-18-03 09:37 PM by poskonig
That way, Clark becomes the news story and would get about 50 million in free airtime going into Oklahoma, South Carolina, et cetera, on the third. Kerry would be KIA in this scenario, which would free things up a bit for Clark on the third, who could quite possibly run away with the nomination afterwards.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. yes, but Kerry just gained a few points over Clark in the recent poll
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. Read up on your Democratic Presidential history

Party of the People: A History of the Democrats

You'll notice that being ahead in the polls before Iowa and NH has never meant much.



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ALago1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. But finishing ahead does...
In my post I am assuming he does not finish top two in either.
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. no
Alot of people have won Iowa and NH, but went on to lose the nomination.

I just returned the book, so I can't go quote from it now, but I will try and find the info.
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graelent Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Actually,
Clinton in 1992 and Bush II are the only candidates ever to lose NH and win the nomination.
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. let's look
New Hampshire Primary winner who did not get their nomination

2000
McCain (R)
1996
Buchanan (R)
1992
Tsongas (D)
1988
none
1984
Hart (D)
1980
none
1976
none
1972
Muskie

In the last 3 elections, one of the NH winners did not go on to be nominated.

======================

Iowa Caucuses - winners

2000
Gore
1996
Clinton - unopposed
1992
Harkin
1988
Gephardt
1984
Mondale
1980
Carter (incumbent)
1976
Uncommitted
1972
Uncommitted

In the last 3 elections, minus the 1996 Clinton where he ran unopposed, only Gore won Iowa and went on to win the nomination










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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. I don't assume Clark finishing one or two in Iowa and NH either
Edited on Thu Dec-18-03 11:59 PM by Tom Rinaldo
And I do see a clear, if not easy, path to a Clark nomination. Here it is:

There are absolutely no expectations for Clark to do anything in Iowa at this point. Since that is known by all going into it, Clark can't "lose" any more now from the results there than he already did by skipping Iowa in the first place. There was a real political cost in that for Clark, but he has already paid it. Clark can only win or lose there indirectly, as other candidates fortunes rise and fall. Most candidates will be further hurt by Iowa at this point. All of those who chose to compete there now need a respectable showing in Iowa to not project weakness.

If Dean wins Iowa, he of course cements his front runner status, but since the public already believes Dean is the overwhelming favorite, his upside there is limited unless he absolutely blows out the rest of the field. Oddly enough if that were to happen it might even help Clark, since it would severely damage all of his opponents other than Dean, and Lieberman, who is also skipping Iowa. Gephardt has to win, and even then it would only keep him somewhat in the race. Gephardt won in Iowa last time he ran for President, and went nowhere after it. Gephardt has little money left, and precious little support in most of the states coming up shortly after Iowa. Dean though would be seriously hurt if Gep beat him there, since he would no longer seem so invincible. It would open up the race more, which is certainly to Clark's advantage, since both Dean AND Kerry would be hurt (assuming Kerry camne in third).

Kerry is the only other guy with any outside chance to win in Iowa. A win there for Kerry would be huge but also extremely unlikely. Kerry is hoping to somehow come in second, which would pump a little life back into his campaign. But unless it is a close second, the big story will still be Dean winning big, and Gephardt getting knocked out of the race. If Kerry doesn't pull off any upside surprise it will hurt him, since the cat is out of the bag now and expectations for Kerry have been elevated. Edwards has to hope he can somehow come in third in Iowa, which is becoming ever more unlikely with Dean Gephardt and Kerry all scoring higher than him. Edwards coming in 4th in Iowa weakens him heading into NH.

Therefor the only scenario I see happening in Iowa that can hurt Clark in any way is a very strong second place finish there by Kerry. If Kerry finishs a not close second it's a draw for both of them, and Edwards and Gephardt will be hurt. I think that will cause some Edwards voters to move to Clark in NH. Gephards support in NH, small already, would likely splinter (assuming he loses in Iowa), with little going to Dean. That helps everyone but Dean in NH.

OK on to New Hampshire. Again Dean is now the strong frontrunner and most assume he will win NH handily, so here too his upside is limited. Pretty much all NH will do is terminally weaken some of Deans opponents, and potentially elevate one or two others as serious alternatives to Dean. It is actually to the advantage of those of Dean's opponents who do have the money needed to be mounting TV ad campaigns in the Feb. 3rd battle states now, that those contests will follow only one week after NH. That will force the media to quickly shift attention off of the afterglow of Dean's expected victory in NH onto the new horse races underway in those other States, which likely will remain competitve. Here Clark has a big advantage over most if not all of the other Dean alternatives. Clark has ample money to fuel his campaign for the moment. Kerry is already mortgaging his house to raise money.

So back to NH. The contest there is for spots two, there, and to a lesser extent, four. So right away we can assume that at least three of the upper tier contenders will get mortally wounded. Let's assume Dean wins and Kerry gets one of the runner up spots. That leaves Clark, Gephardt, Edwards, and Lieberman competing for the other seats left at the table. Coming in 5th in NH is simply not a viable option. Anything short of a very close 4th in NH is not an option in fact. I see Edwards having at best a shot at finishing fourth, but a long shot. He would have to beat out Clark Kerry or Lieberman to grab number four, not to mention Gephardt if somehow he wins Iowa. Remember I expect Edwards to come out of Iowa weakened. So I see Clark picking up some of Edwards votes in NH because his supporters will see the handwriting on the wall. Clark is the only other guy running with Southern appeal, and that has been an Edwards selling point.

Clark would get a huge boost out of NH if he came in second there of course, but I don't expect him to do that, and I don't believe he at all needs to do that. Getting beaten by Kerry in NH is nothing that Clark would have to explain away to anyone. Kerry has spent much of a year stomping through New Hampshire and millions of dollars there as well. Kerry was once expected to WIN New Hampshire easily, he comes from right across the border and NH gets much of its media programming from Boston. People know Kerry well in NH. Anything other than a really strong second finish in NH now will discredit Kerry, assuming as I do that he will also have lost in Iowa. Kerry does not have significant strength in most of the Feb. 3rd contests to regroup there. He needs momentuum coming out of NH to be competitive on Feb. 3rd. Kerry runs a very real risk that NH will be his high water mark, and it will be far from high enough.

More important for Clark will be the distance between the 3rd and 4th place finishers, than any of the other gaps in the spread for the top finsihers. If Clark comes in third, and has breathing room over the 4th place finisher, Clark emerges from NH in at least relatively good shape. Third place means Clark beats both Lieberman and Edwards, and Lieberman and Edwards are the only other Democrats who are polling well in the Feb. 3rd battlefield States besides Dean. Since Clark already is highly competitve with both those gentlemen in those states, if not outright beating them already, coming out ahead of them in NH the week before would give Clarka a very strong leg up on both of them heading into those contests.

Under that scenario every candidate other than Clark and Dean will come out of NH weakened, most mortally. Again, Kerry is not doing well currently in those states. The media, the pundits, activists, and the public will quickly size up the race as coming down to Dean and Clark at that point. This in turn will increase pressure on the backers of other candidates to pick another horse. Dean consistently draws the support of less than a third of Democrats polled. Most Democrats have not embraced Dean yet, no matter what Gore or the papers say. There will be a natural tendency for those who have resisted Dean to date to look at, and for, a Democrat who can continue to resist Dean, and that will be Clark, and most likely only Clark. Between now and Feb. 3rd, Clark can afford to allocate the resources he needs to stay competitive in those states, where the terraine is intrinsically less receptive for Dean than in Iowa and NH, where Dean virtually camped out with his army for a year.

Clark will receive a huge boost from the next "primary" held, which will be the annoucemnents of funds raised by candidates in the 4th quarter. Clark may or may not actually beat out Dean there, but he will clearly seperate himself from all of the other contenders by that critical measure. That will give Clark added momentum heading into NH. Under the above scenario the real battle won't begin untill Feb. 3rd, after the field begins to narrow, and the field will narrow again immediately after Feb. 3rd, if not literally with formal withdrawals, then for all practical purposes in terms of remaining voter support for the weaker candidates. Clark should make both of those cuts, gaining strength and building excitement in the process. The fact that Dean will not have been able to put away the nomination with a quick knock out will by then begin to work against him, since all those repeatedly hyped expectations of the inevitable Dean victory will start to lose their bouyancy.

Remember, very very few delegates are actually won during the Iowa and New Hampshire contests. The actual race to win the nomination can shift quite dramatically depending on what happens in the larger states later. Perception and momentum will play a critical role in this nominating process. Clark's movement is growing, and is poised to continue growing. The shift that has occurred here at DU from when Clark was an exotic off brand candidate to now where he consistently draws strong support on DU forums is just now playing out with a broader circle of Democrats who now starting to tune in closer to the election. What Dean once was to Kerry, as the underestimated underdog with support growing below the radar, Clark can now be to Dean. This can still get very interesting.
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ALago1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. You raise a lot of good points. Thanks! n/t
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. Well, if he comes in second or third in NH
Then he becomes the story. The new contender like Clinton did. Then he releases his fundraising totals and gets a big splash. Gephardt and Kerry and maybe some others may have to drop out if they do poorly there. I think many of the other campaigns are having money problems. As the field narrows, it becomes a two man race and Clark gets more attention. The next set of primaries are mostly more conducive to a Clark candidacy and with the additional media coverage and money, he has a great chance to win several of those states. In several, he is in a statistical dead heat with Dean. Then, it's just a matter of keeping up the big mo and winning.
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deminflorida Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. Feb. 3, 2004
Will be a big, big day for Clark.....
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
27. That's the big test
Iowa and NH aren't as important I don't think. They just aren't representative enough anymore. I think Feb 3 is the day.
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nomaco-10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. He seems to be doing something right so far...
Edited on Thu Dec-18-03 10:04 PM by nomaco-10
By not attacking John Kerry directly, he has managed to woo half of Kerry's base over to his camp. They're like rats deserting a sinking ship and they sit around here trying to figure out went wrong. Kerry and his supporters developed tunnel vision when it came to Dean and half their constituency went missing in action, the general didn't have to lift a finger, they fell in line like good little soldiers. I'll be shaking my head about this one for a long time.
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Jerseycoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. This is such bull
How do you know how many Kerry supporters have gone over to Clark? You don't. I don't.
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5thGenDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #14
25. And, in any event, Kerry supporters are not "rats"
John Kerry has earned a chance to be the Democratic nominee for President of the United States. I think he's a good candidate myself (though I prefer Clark), and I'd vote for him in a minute.
I only hope that Kerry supporters can largely line up behind Clark, should the chips fall that way. I like both of them and am content to wait and see how the early primaries shake out.
John
If, though I don't expect it, Clark can't continue his momentum through Iowa and NH (and on to the South), I'll back Kerry.
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. last time I checked a thind of his following checked out
maybe not as right as before
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #8
28. None that I've noticed
Where these ideas come from. :crazy: And do you really think it helps gain Kerry supports calling them rats deserting a sinking ship????
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
9. call up an air strike
oh crap, he can't do that anymore
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #9
34. damn- you beat me to it "call in the Army" www.clarks-army.com
I wa going to say "call in the Army"




Q
What is the advantage of joining Clark's Army, then?

A
Joining Clark's Army puts you on the Official Grassrooters Email list. Once on the list, you will receive periodic "Army Alerts". These Alerts include the ability to participate in internet polls, information on the General's appearances, etc…

http://www.clarks-army.com/InfoJoin.html


Welcome Grassrooter!

You are now on the list to receive Clark's Army ALERTS. Please open any emails, with ALERT in the subject line, as soon as you see them, as they will have info on the General, online Polls to participate in, etc...

Also, when you receive an ALERT, please forward to as many Clark supporters as you can. Please tell your Clark supporting friends about Clark's Army (thanks!) and check both the General's website (www.clark04.com) and the Clark's Army (www.clarks-army.com) website, when you can, as they are both updated often.
==



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mjv135 Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
11. I think
Dean has gotten most of his supporters already, the "anti-dean" are split between 8 other candidates, 4 candidates have most of them, as these candidates start to drop, most of their supporters will not go to Dean. Clark will have the biggest war chest, and I think the biggest momentum, so I think he'll pick these people up. Also, Clark appeals to a large number of independent and moderate repugs who don't show up in a lot of these polls, but will show up to vote. Dean has a lot of repug support too, but for a totally different reason. I think he's poised to take at least second in N.H, and once Edwards drops out, the south is Clarks. The momentum from there takes him all the way.
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. I think some of what you say is correct BUT
the bit about Dean getting support from Republicans is an unjustified slam. The only reason GOP businessmen would give money to Dean is because they think he has a chance to win, and want to be able to point to their support if he does.

As people they would puke blood before voting for a progressive like Dean but politics is money, and nobody wants to be on the bad side of a winner.

This is old politics, of course, but the people you're talking about don't know any better. They don't beleive in the Dean campaign anymore than Dubya does, but they want to hedge their bets. Business has no loyalty and no moral compass. Their bottom line is and always will be the bottom line.

If they're willing to help Dean thrash the GOP, he most certainly take their money. He'd be crazy not to.
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dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #11
32. I think a lot of Gep's labor support will go to Dean
Gep has gotten a lot of his support from labor, but I'd expect that they would go to Dean over Clark when Gephardt drops out. If Dean knocks out Gephardt in Iowa, I expect that he will get a big boost from labor.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
12. He gets the nomination with the support of people like you and me
who truly believe in his message, and his ability to defeat the forces of darkness (sorry for the cliche, but it fits).
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
13. Easy. especially if Dean wins Iowa
Edited on Thu Dec-18-03 10:22 PM by John_H
Dean supporters act like everyones going to be in the race between now and the convention.

Problem is they're not, and Clark will pick up far more of the drop outs' votes than dean will--that's the down side of an "estabilshment" bashing "insurgent" campaign.

If Dean wins Iowa Gephardt is bye bye sooner rather than later. Clark picks up way more of his votes than dean, and possibly even some of his organization. If Clark finishes second in NH things get even easier. Chances are Lieberman's gone after NH and the first round of the south and Clark gets even more lieberman votes than he did Gephardt.

Now we go into south round two where even with gephardt and Lieberman in the race Clark is statistically tied with or ahead of Dean in every state--without either of the others it's a Clark sweep. Edwards then goes bye bye. Unless dean wins HUGE in NY and CA (remember, these are not winner take all states, folks. The delegate count is very close at this point.

If there is a big endorsement going into NY and CA--it's all over.
Not even the most Rove pocketed ho can ignore, say, a clinton endorsement. Clark may even win one of the biggies plus the south.

Even if there is no endorsement, when the smoke clears the delegate race is close, and it's a three way race(or even two way race depending on how Kerry does in the south) going into the midwest and west.

I like those odds, especially as Clark picks up more media coverage, Dean continues to shoot his mouth off, and it become apparent to even the slowest Americans that Clark takes away the chimp's only issue while Dean makes it easier to capitalize upon.


Then instead of running adds killing dean, Chimp spends four months on the defensive, trying to defend his abysmal record.

Chimp gets no mandate just because a fearful America wants a "strong" leader. Clark wins. America is saved.

America back on on course, Vice President Dean beats 2008 and 2012 nominee Bill Frist in a landslide on Nov 7, 2012.
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ALago1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I like your analysis n/t
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
16. Kerry needs to drop out as he and the General are only hurting eachother
Edited on Thu Dec-18-03 10:19 PM by mzmolly
in my opinion. Clark has been an ambush to the Kerry campaign, and it's time for Kerry to surrender. Though I wish it were the other way around personally.
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. He he he....the new Dean fantasy.
you gotta hand it to ther Dean supporters--they have wonderful imaginations. Today they have been imagining that Kerry and Clark will kill each other off. They would prefer Kerry goes first since they get at least a few of his votes.

The trouble is that Kerry's got too much money to go soon. But he will go after the south.

Then the reality will hit even the most necklessness admiring Dean supporters. You'll know you're in for a race, one that you'll likely lose.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Oh, it's not my fantasy. It's common sense they are competing for the
Edited on Thu Dec-18-03 10:33 PM by mzmolly
same demographic. One of them will likely compete with Dean for the nomination. I personally hope it's Kerry, but it looks like it's gonna be the general. :(
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dajabr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. Not true for me!
I'd prefer Clark gets knocked out if Dean is out.

Though, I'm concerned that Kerry will have the moolah to hang in there.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 03:54 AM
Response to Original message
26. Well, I loved reading all of this....
Edited on Sat Dec-20-03 03:55 AM by Frenchie4Clark
"OBJECTS ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR"

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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
29. Great showing in NH, Super Tuesday - take South
That's the big plan. Strategy is only for insiders. ;-)
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
30. Playing along
I'm a Dean guy who would vote for *lark. Here's the only possible *lark scenario.

He will not finish third in Iowa, four candidates poll above 10% in IA(Dean, Gep., Kerry, and Edwards). ALL others are at 7% combined. Second place for *lark in NH is in striking distance, but Kerry's moving up, while Clark is stagnant.

It all comes down to a few states on Feb. 3. SC, where *lark is currently second by only one point to Dean; AZ, where *lark is second to Dean by 2 points; and OK where *lark leads by 13 points.

February 3rd will be a benchmark for *lark. He doesn't cinch it if he wins three states that day, but he's out of it if he hasn't managed to win at least two states by Feb. 3rd.
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
31. He needs to start talking about domestic issues
that's the biggest thing that bothers me about Clark-- he never has clear cut answers on domestic issues. He's solid on foreign policy, I love that, but I wish he'd grow some balls and hammer home some sort of domestic agenda.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. He has been stuck with this in the debates
They haven't asked him a domestic question since the Rock the vote debate. They haven't asked more than one since before that.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-20-03 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
35. He needs more people like YOU
working for him and more people like ME. I USE to be a Dean supporter too. Just remember. Clinton didn't win NH and was in office for 8 GLORIOUS years. Clark can and will win this. Look at how far he has come after just 3-4 months in the campaign. The man is INCREDIBLE and WILL win! They are saying that this may very well be the first time in history that we have 2 candidates at our Democratic National Convention. Clark will be one of the 2. Support him and talk to your friends about him...he can do it! So can you! :bounce:
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