Non-Obama supporters, how valuable (or not valuable)is it that Obama has drawn so many young voters?

[Levgreee]

I strongly feel that mobilizing the people, while not all important, can be just as powerful as a person's ability to pick legislature and get it passed. It is a hard asset to measure, but my opinion is that it is definitely an asset, both in getting elected, and making change through the dedication of an inspired populace.


What is your opinion? Is it an empty asset? Would you consider it an advantage Obama has over Hillary, in terms of what he will be able to accomplish with his presidency, or not?

[Metric System]

1. But what if he turns off older voters, generally the most reliable of voters, in the process?

[Levgreee]

3. I don't think he is, to much of an extent... he is definitely bringing in more young than losing old

and, like I said... it's not only about votes, it is about what he can actually achieve during his presidency. Manpower, volunteering, is an extremely effective way to make progress and change. You can't just throw money at the right issues.

1,000 young people is more valuable than 200 old people, in that regard.

[readmoreoften]

12. How is 1000 young people better than 200 "old" people? What sick, undemocratic logic.

And what's old? I'm 37 your American Idol sound byte leader leaves me cold. So what? You don't care about my vote for the next 30 years because someone else might vote Dem for 40 years or 50 year? Or vote Dem once, then turn Republican when he realizes the baggie of hope is full of baking soda? This is the kind of sound thinking that's been winning us elections for sure.

You know what? If you want to win the young, then vote pro-gay. According to one poll I read awhile back only 3% of 18 year olds have a good impression of the Religious Right.

[Levgreee]

15. I never said they were "better", I said they provide more manpower and volunteer effort

"Manpower, volunteering, is an extremely effective way to make progress and change. You can't just throw money at the right issues.

1,000 young people is more valuable than 200 old people, in that regard."


You can't dispute that 1,000 is generally greater than 200. And young voters have the benefits of having more free time, less responsibilities, and to a lesser extent better health.

[readmoreoften]

17. No, you said "more valuable", which is even worse. /nt

[Levgreee]

22. More valuable, in the sense of manpower and volunteering

I don't feel you should be bashing young people at all, because your reading comprehension is much worse than most young people I have met.

It is basically an indisputable fact that 1000 young activists can get more volunteer work(which is often labor-intensive) done, than 200 older voters. Do you disagree? That is all that I was saying.

[rch35]

36. your making an issue out of a non issue

he is saying for every 200 old people he excludes, he is bringing in around 1000 younger people.

this is probably not statistically valid, but its making a point to illustrate that Obama brings in much more young voters than he loses old.

So, he could have said that having 1000 volunteers as opposed to 200 was more valuable, and you wouldn't have disagreed. Since you had a stick in your butt, you took exception to the fact that he framed his point in relation to the topic of the discussion (Obama alienating older voters). And yes, it is true that young people generally have more free time and less responsibilities than most middle aged and up people. That's not bashing on older people. That is fact.

So just reach back and give it a good tug.

Should come out easy.

[readmoreoften]

50. It's a fact that more "young people" are involved than "old people"? Really...

Really....

So, I assume the caucuses are filled with college students. When I go to vote, how come it's always the elderly and middle aged manning the booths? When I go to a protest, how come there are more fifty-somethings than college kids?

And what makes you think young people have more free time than older folks? Half the college students I know work at least part time and have internships. And we all know you're not talking about working class kids because they're not terribly attracted to Obama.

And what makes you think this "free time" is going to be spend on politics instead of, say, MySpace, bands, celebrities, getting drunk, clothes, gossip?

You have a fantasy of what young people do these days. This is no 'youth movement'. Give me a break.

If Obama wins, it won't be because kids are working hard for him. It'll be because the media perpetuates the idea that "the youth are motivated" and everyone is emotionally excited by the prospect of "a new generation" that will "make a change."

I live in a college town. Last year I taught almost 200 college aged students at a different university. You're describing a feel-good media fantasy. A bubble. It's not happening.

[rch35]

51. Gee really?

Because, not only do I live in a college town, I'm also 18, and attend college, and I know that there are hundreds upon hundreds of young people that are very motivated about Obama and working hard for him just at my college.

Maybe when you go to vote, there is always older people voting because no one has inspired the younger voters like Obama has.

So this college student is kind of insulted by what you're saying. I live, work, and go to school in the middle of a youth movement for Obama. My newly Democratic friend, who I just convinced to register that way, who has a family full of Republicans is voting for Obama. His lifelong Republican dad is voting for Obama, as is his lifelong Republican mom.

I am also a working class kid, and yes, while partying and MySpace do provide me with hours of entertainment, I also take politics very seriously, as do many of my peers. Many of them are voting for Obama.

So, while you're going on trashing the new generations in some half assed way to tear down Obama because he has enthusiastic youths working for him all over the country, there IS a youth movement going on. I'm sorry that you don't see it.

And I never said young people are more involved than old people. I said in sheer numbers, 1000 is better than 200.

[emilyg]

23. This granny takes exception to your post.

[Levgreee]

26. Please read my clarification, I feel I was making a completely non controversial remark

if you disagree with my reasoning, that 1000 youngsters is more manpower for volunteer work than 200 older people (who have less free time, and to a lesser extent less energy/health), please tell me why and I'll detract my statement.

[Big Blue Marble]

2. Young voters energize the party.

Young voters energize the country. They are extremely important. They are the future.

I worry for young people today. What have they had to look forward to
declining democracy, more wars, shrinking economic opportunities, and global climate crisis.

Suddenly, someone awakens their hopes and dreams. Someone tells them yes they can make a difference
That together we can change the world. Every few generations a leader like this comes along and
stirs the passions of the coming generation.

As a child of the sixties, I have been disheartened as I watched our dreams trampled by the right.
And each succeeding generation became preoccupied with their individual interests with no concern
for the greater good.

Now I am encouraged. Finally we have a leader and a young generation who are ready for transformation
again. Our country's dormancy is over and we can begin again to face the real challenges of our time.

[dkf]

4. I wish I had someone like Obama when I was young.

Michael Dukakis was the commencement speaker at my university graduation and I'm sorry but it was a SNOOZER.

all my life I voted straight line Dem because my family is straight Dem and didn't start getting interested in politics until the Lewinsky melee.

Todays kids are so lucky. They are starting their adult lives hearing someone who inspires them to be better people.

[DiamondJay]

5. how very true

that is one thing I worry about if Hillary gets the nomination, will she be able to keep the young voters out there supporting her? I don't think old fart McCain is getting any younguns, but there's gotta be some way we keep these kids out there somehow. There is the VP possibility for Obama, but I worry about electability because maybe that is too much change. you also gotta figure how many young people are actually gonna get out an vote on election day

[FrenchieCat]

7. If Obama is the nominee, be certain that they will show up......

in answering your question....."but I worry about electability because maybe that is too much change"

That would be the right kind of change.

[DiamondJay]

9. what about older voters and middle age

i worry if the older generation, the part who is not liberal or democrats will vote for both a woman AND a black. we can't just rely on younger voters, they only make up about 15% of the electorate. I still think there is a lotta this country who won't tolerate both

[Levgreee]

13. People have a stronger distaste for Bush, than Blacks or Females

In the democratic party, I'd say that less than .001% would have a problem with voting for a black or female canididate. I think your concern is unfounded. So, he gets the BASE Democratic vote, plus all these new young voters. It's a bonus, not a trade off.

Obama's goal is to get a working majority, hopefully around 60% or so. He can get that without the racist/sexist independents and republicans.

[DiamondJay]

25. i know about in the democratic party...

but how about this independents and republicans we're supposed to get. Do you really think that we will get enough votes in all states to at least get the popular vote with Clinton/Obama? Or to get at least everything kerry got electorally plus enough to win the white house?

[Levgreee]

27. Yes, he has pretty strong Independent, and some Republican support, And MORE importantly...

he definitely has more of their support than Hillary. So if that is a concern for you when it comes to electability, Obama should worry you the least out of the remaining candidates.

Of course, the Democratic nominee gets a larger boost among Is and Rs from the weakness of the Repub's position. But, Obama can take advantage of that weakness, while Hillary can't as much.

[FrenchieCat]

28. So you think they'll sit at home?

Geeze! We win by 10% and I'm good!

I'm 49, my hubby is 59.....my daughers 18 and 20....and we are all going O.

[Levgreee]

6. I love how he repeatedly says "but you are going to have to work hard. This won't be easy."

Many of them will grasp onto this... take it as the truth it is. Obama doesn't mention it quickly, then stop telling them about how they'll have to do a lot of work. He drills it in, keeps reminding them. And they love that he telling them this (at least for now). They are getting the rewarding feeling you get, from realizing a since of duty, a higher purpose.

People have to work hard! Anyone knows, from their personal lives, the rewards that hard work and dedication brings. It works the same way, on a larger, national scale.

[readmoreoften]

16. And no generation of college kids knows hard work like this one...

The generation of back-patting, grade inflation, and total entitlement. Of course the working class kids have it worse than ever, but he's not attracting those 'types', is he? No kids from the school of hard knocks for Obama, thanks... They have a kind of sixth-sense for bullshit.

[rch35]

37. A message from a college student to you:

Go fuck yourself, hombre.

[piesRsquare]

8. Frankly, the whole thing is giving me the creeps.

I see thousands of young people rallying around a charismatic personality. Some of them remind me of the Bush-adoring loonies in their facial expressions and fanaticism. It's like a cult, and it scares the shit out of me.

For 25 years, sociologists who study the collective traits of generations (i.e. Baby Boom generation, Generation X, etc) have warned that this particular generation (now named/identified as Generation "Y") would be at high risk of massively rallying around and blindly supporting a highly charismatic and manipulative personality to "lead" (much like Hitler's followers), due in particular to their under-developed critical thinking skills, lower-quality education, and immaturity (when compared with previous generations). I believe this is exactly what's happening.

Obama is a very smooth talker, and it makes me nervous.

[Levgreee]

10. Obama has been getting the highest percentage of voters with a college degree also

Furthermore, I think you are quickly, almost insultingly, dismissing all these young, college voters. THESE are the ones who drive many a political campaign, probably INCLUDING the Edward's campaign. They are often enthusiastic, and sufficiently informed about the issues, even if they don't know all the details of the history of USA politics.

Also, I think they are just as capable as being informed as older people, of course, older people generally have an advantage, but MANY don't take advantage of their longer life experience. They didn't spend years 20-40 of their life researching the issues, making it quite easy for young voters to be on the same level as them. I know I hear plenty of ignorant statements from older voters.

[readmoreoften]

14. They didn't spend years 20-40 of their life researching the issues...

Yeah, there's the kind of voter a good candidate wants. A team of uninformed, impressionable cheerleaders with no sense of history. :crazy:

[rodeodance]

42. It is 'no sense of history" that scares me--both off and ON this board.

[Levgreee]

43. Obama understands history, and he understands that we need to aspire for greater change

a new type of politics. That is his promise, that is one of his greatest goals. Transparent government, honesty with the people, open discourse and open discussion of his reasoning for the choices he makes... among other things.

You're stuck with thinking we have to stay with what we have always had, where some progress is made, but not nearly enough. Time for the new!

[rodeodance]

45. He does not articulate his Vision thingy--la la rhetoric full of glitter.

[stillcool]

49. How about a return to the good old days?

1855 Connecticut adopts the nation's first literacy test for voting. Massachusetts follows suit in 1857. The tests were implemented to discriminate against Irish-Catholic immigrants.
1870 The 15th Amendment is passed. It gives former slaves the right to vote and protects the voting rights of adult male citizens of any race.
1889 Florida adopts a poll tax. Ten other southern states will implement poll taxes.
1890 Mississippi adopts a literacy test to keep African Americans from voting. Numerous other states—not just in the south—also establish literacy tests. However, the tests also exclude many whites from voting. To get around this, states add grandfather clauses that allow those who could vote before 1870, or their descendants, to vote regardless of literacy or tax qualifications.
1913 The 17th Amendment calls for members of the U.S. Senate to be elected directly by the people instead of State Legislatures.
1915 Oklahoma was the last state to append a grandfather clause to its literacy requirement (1910). In Guinn v. United States the Supreme Court rules that the clause is in conflict with the 15th Amendment, thereby outlawing literacy tests for federal electio
1920 The 19th Amendment guarantees women's suffrage.
1924 Indian Citizenship Act grants all Native Americans the rights of citizenship, including the right to vote in federal elections.
1944 The Supreme Court outlaws "white primaries" in Smith v. Allwright (Texas). In Texas, and other states, primaries were conducted by private associations, which, by definion, could exclude whomever they chose. The Court declares the nomination process to be a public process bound by the terms of 15th Amendment
1957 The first law to implement the 15th amendment, the Civil Rights Act, is passed. The Act set up the Civil Rights Commission—among its duties is to investigate voter discrimination.
1960 In Gomillion v. Lightfoot (Alabama) the Court outlaws "gerrymandering."
1961 The 23rd Amendment allows voters of the District of Columbia to participate in presidential elections.
1964 The 24th Amendment bans the poll tax as a requirement for voting in federal elections.
1965 Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., mounts a voter registration drive in Selma, Alabama, to draw national attention to African-American voting rights.
1965 The Voting Rights Act protects the rights of minority voters and eliminates voting barriers such as the literacy test. The Act is expanded and renewed in 1970, 1975, and 1982.
1966 The Supreme Court, in Harper v. Virginia Board of Elections, eliminates the poll tax as a qualification for voting in any election. A poll tax was still in use in Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, and Virginia.
1966 The Court upholds the Voting Rights Act in South Carolina v. Katzenbach.
1970 Literacy requirements are banned for five years by the 1970 renewal of the Voting Rights Act. At the time, eighteen states still have a literacy requirement in place. In Oregon v. Mitchell, the Court upholds the ban on literacy tests, which is made permanent in 1975. Judge Hugo Black, writing the court's opinion, cited the "long history of the discriminatory use of literacy tests to disenfranchise voters on account of their race" as the reason for their decision.
1971 The 26th amendment sets the minimum voting age at 18.
1972 In Dunn v. Blumstein, the Supreme Court declares that lengthy residence requirements for voting in state and local elections is unconstitutional and suggests that 30 days is an ample period.
1995 The Federal "Motor Voter Law" takes effect, making it easier to register to vote.
2003 Federal Voting Standards and Procedures Act requires states to streamline registration, voting, and other election procedures.

[FrenchieCat]

11. Read Lakoff's take on Obama.....

Since you're so creeped out! :scary:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4305263

[my3boyz]

18. Old people don't like change

I truly believe that is why Obama is not popular with older people. I think that is why my FIL was hesitant to support him at first. Well, that in addition to not being sure if an African American could actually win.

[DURHAM D]

29. Old people don't like change - I keep hearing this from Obama supporters.

Young people are all stupid.

Neither statement is true and both insult a whole class of people.

I have repeatedly seen this old people don't like change statement posted by Obama supporters. I have never seen anyone assert the young people are stupid idea in this forum.

Jeez - and you wonder why we don't like Obama supporters... Arrogant little jerks they are.

[Levgreee]

35. "I have never seen anyone assert the young people are stupid idea in this forum"except in this post

[DURHAM D]

38. Good - I was checking your reading comprehension.

But what you posted pisses me off.

It is simple minded to say that old people don't like change so they don't support Obama. We want change, we crave change, but we don't support Obama as we frankly see him as too conservative and too weak. And, he underestimates the opposition. Like John Edwards said - if you try to have lunch together they will eat your food.

[Levgreee]

40. ah, well I didn't post that , my3boyz did <nm>

[DURHAM D]

41. Sorry - I noticed most of the responses upthread

were from you so I missed that another Obama supporter had joined in.

I am angry about the nasty attitude of Obama supporters but by comparison your posts are quite civil.

[rodeodance]

44. Lakoff praises Reagan Personality-then applies it to Obama--but does NOT talk about

the outcome of the Reagan years --its terrible effects we are still living with.

Yes, indeed--lets ante up the personality criteria for electing a President.
(NOT)

[nonconformist]

19. That is very interesting.

I'd like to learn more about what the sociologists say, if you have a link. I'm a Gen X'er, btw.

And I'm with you on the creepy factor.

[thoughtcrime1984]

21. OK, now I see why you said what you said in the other thread

You can shove it where the sun doesn't shine. I gave a fairly detailed response as to what I like personally about Obama. I didn't say he was magical, or can't put on a finger on why I like him. Just because a few million folks don't agree with you on your choice of candidate, it doesn't mean that you are somehow blessed with better thinking skills. Get over yourself. I think there are more groupthinkers in the other two campaigns. You just can't think outside of the proverbial box that there just might be a chance that Obama would be good for this country. Be as nervous as you'd like, but if you're going to insult me, it's coming right back at you as I'm tired of the same old attacking fellow Democrat shit that is going on here.

[Jamastiene]

34. VERY nervous. n/t

[Bluebear]

20. Creepy and personality-driven.

"I then said, "give me some of that" and the guy shook my hand with the same hand he had just clasped with Barack's. A woman friend of mine who was standing next to me saw me shake hands with the guy. I turned to her and said "He just shook hands with Barack," to which she responded..."Hey, give it up." We then shook hands...I call this hand-shake scenario the "BAM" because, descriptively, it takes a bit of Obama's name and it's the sound of a collision, of People Coming Together!"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4057783

[nonconformist]

24. Ok, that's very creepy.

I'm rendered speechless...

[FrenchieCat]

30. That would be nice.....

Not to have to read your creepy posts, I mean.

[piesRsquare]

31. Same here...

It's worse than I thought...

[DURHAM D]

33. Oh goodness... n/t

[rodeodance]

46. my gawd--i went to the link--I shuddered.

[Jamastiene]

32. Considering how many young people I have met who are out and out

pro Bush and cannot be reasoned with, I'd say mostly it's a bad idea that so many of them ALSO support Obama. With friends like that, who needs enemies?

[rch35]

39. Wow, what amazing reasoning.

Some stupid young people like Bush, so all young people must be stupid, and if you have young people supporting you, you better watch out.

Shit.

By that reasoning, since SOME adults are pro Bush and cannot be reasoned with, having adults support your campaign must be the kiss of death!

[mmonk]

47. It's great. But we don't know if they will stay if he doesn't win.

[Zorra]

48. Although I believe that this phenomenon is largely charisma based,

I think it is a good thing, because, inevitably, many of the more conscious and intelligent young people attracted to Obama will examine the core Jeffersonian ideology of the Democratic Party, and will subsequently come to understand how important it is that they fight corporate rule and attempt to re-establish democracy in the US.