Can die-hard Dean fans point to 1 issue where he was any better than DK?

[RichM]

I simply don't understand the devotion shown to this guy, even though some of the devotees have my respect. I was only able to see him as someone who was 1) admirably feisty, and 2) hit part of the truth, part of the time - compared to Kucinich, who hit most of the truth, almost all of the time.

I'm honestly not looking for a flame war here. It seems to me that the very sorts of reasoning usually advanced to support the case for Dean should have led his supporters to like Kucinich even more. Can anyone try to advance a logical explanation of why this didn't happen? Why weren't Dean supporters happy & willing to move to Kucinich's camp after Dean dropped out? Was the preference for Dean over DK (at least initially) just a matter of perceived "electability?"

[Evil_Dewers]

1. Dean was a lot better at raising money than DK.

Unfortunately, he was a lot better at spending money, too.

[SCDem]

3. DK = Dennis Kucinich not John Kerry

[Evil_Dewers]

6. Fixed the subject.

The post content remains the same.

[genius]

2. I'm with you

I can't believe that Dean's supporters agreed with his conservative positions on most issues.

[JVS]

4. His record on abortion is way better

Where can I get my prize?

[genius]

7. Dennis was best/ most liberal on choice

He was the only one who would have made Roe v. Wade a litmus test.

[JVS]

10. He said name one,

Kucinich consistently voted against abortion rights

[Ediacara]

13. Ya, after his sudden

(and in no way related to his presidential bid so stop saying that!) conversion in 2002, following a long career of being anti-abortion.

[seaglass]

17. That's incorrect.

http://www.prolifeinfo.com/nat5.html

NATIONAL PRO-LIFE NEWS


Presidential Candidate Kerry Again Backs Pro-Abortion Judges
June 21, 2003

Washington, DC (LifeNews.com) -- Once again, Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) has affirmed he supports only pro-abortion judges for various court positions.

In April, Kerry told a campaign audience that if elected president he would nominate to the high court only supporters of abortion and the Roe v. Wade decision. On Friday, Kerry said he is prepared to block any of President Bush's pro-life nominees for judicial positions.

[RichM]

12. Not entirely fair, because Dennis changed on this issue, 16 mos ago.

The committee has decided to withhold your prize, for the time being!

[Ediacara]

15. the sudden change

was clearly related to his presdiential bid. He may not have formally announced in Oct 2002, but he absolutely had it in his head he was running. Sorry but you just don't decide to run for president on a whim, and I'm certain he has been thinking of the run since hmmm 14 Dec 2000.

[OhioStateProgressive]

84. he was drafted to run

So that nullifies your "theory".

[Ediacara]

91. so that's the official story?

Oh that's right.... Dec 13 2000 thinks to himself, "I should run for president;" Feb 2002 gave a speech; spring/summer 2002 was urged to run because of said speech; OCT 2002 CHANGED HIS MIND ON ABORTION; Jan 2003 joined the presidential race.

Sorry you're wrong buster. I know you won't find this on DK's website, but it's a pretty secure chronology for anyone who can find Google and has 5 minutes to spare.

[comradebillyboy]

5. on all issues dean was superior

nt

[genius]

8. name one

nt

[Catholic Sensation]

58. he named more than one

apparently all positions held by Kucinich, even if some were exactly the same as Howard Dean's, were weaker. And some Dean supporters wonder why some much vitriol is directed at them :eyes:

[deutsey]

9. It wasn't an issue for me, it was pragmatism

I felt Dean could appeal to a coalition of the left, center, and even moderate right.

I just didn't see DK doing that (not that Dean did either, ultimately, but he made a valiant attempt). Maybe I'm wrong, but as much as I like everything Kucinich says, I could not see him appealing to the broad spectrum of people needed to beat Bush. That says more about the sad state of the American electorate than it does about DK, I guess.

[sangh0]

25. So the answer is "Dean no better on the issues"?

.

[deutsey]

29. No, not even remotely.

This election, for me, was about making a real transformation in American politics and society. That meant we had to forge a large coalition of different races, interests, clases, etc.

I felt Dean's lack of "purism" empowered him to look at the issues more open-mindedly, which made him more appealing to a broader group of voters.

For example, living in a rural area, I can tell you that his stand on guns appealed to a lot of people here who wouldn't ever consider voting for Kucinich, or even for Kerry for that matter. I made in-roads with conservative friends, too, when I talked about Dean's emphasis on class differences rather than racial divisions in our country. They were at least willing to consider what Dean was saying because he came across as someone who wasn't going to confine himself in an ideological straightjacket (sp?). They just laugh Kerry off as not knowing who he is (someone was talking about how Kerry apparently wouldn't give a direct answer to the question about being a liberal in a debate...I didn't see it, so I don't know how evasive he was). They don't even know who Kucinich is and why he's running.

[sangh0]

32. So the answer is "Dean no better on the issues"?

I see nothing in your response that identifies any issue that you think Dean was better than DK on.

[deutsey]

35. Ok, here's a literal-minded response

Dean's stand on guns is one issue.

Dean's approach to economic disparities is another issue.

Dean's more pragmatic approach to withdrawal from Iraq is another.

Now, if you're capable of doing so, place these issues within a larger strategy that attempted to unite disparate groups in this country and not simply preach to the choir.

[sangh0]

38. That was one issue. Thanks

Guns is one issue, but from the liberal perspective Dean was inferior to DK.

The other "issues" you mention were not issues. They were opinions. "more pragmatic" is an opinion. "Dean's approach" is also NOT an issue. It's an approach.

And it was Dean's job to place those issues in a larger strategy that would unite disparate groups. He failed.

[deutsey]

41. Oh, thank you, wise one

I bask now in the glow of your omniscience. :eyes:

Iraq is an issue as is how we're going to tighten the growing gap between rich and poor in this country.

On Iraq, Dean's stand on the issue of how are going to get out of Iraq and leave it standing made more sense to me than does Kucinich's. The US has so damaged its connections with the UN and the world community that it's unreasonable to think that suddenly all those fences will be mended in the kind of timeframe DK talked about.

Economic disparities is another issue, regardless of whether you want to recognize it as such. Dean attempted to address this issue along class lines, not the traditional racial lines of both "liberals" and "conservatives".

These are my opinions, yes, but they are my opinions about issues. what else does one have on issues except opinions?

And yes, Dean failed to unite the disparate groups, but, unlike DK (who is preaching to the choir) and Kerry (who is defining these issues by the same old strategems the DNC and DLC always uses), at least he tried.

Now we have business as usual. Yippee.

[sangh0]

48. You're welcome, but if you're going to bask

it's going to cost ya.

And Iraq is an issue, but "Dean's pragmatic approach" is merely a comment on Dean's style, and not a comment on Dean's position wrt this issue.

And again, while "economic disparities" is an issue, "Dean's pragmatic approach" is not a comment on his position. It's a comment on his style.

And as far as Kerry not uniting disparate groups, I suggest you read today's NY Times. As they do after each of the primary contests, they have some stats on who voted for who. The title of this article is "Cross Section of Democrats Shows Kerry's Wide Appeal"

[deutsey]

53. We'll have to agree to disagree

But that's what Democrats like you and democrats (small "d" intentiontal) like me do best, I suppose. :evilgrin:

And, BTW, I try to avoid the NYTimes whenever I can (I'm still sore that they neglected to cover the tens of thousands of us in the streets protesting Bush's coronation in 2001, and I didn't appreciate how they, with few exceptions, were among those pounding wardrums the loudest prior to the invasion of Iraq).
:hi:

[Cheswick2.0]

87. The message is Kerry sucks

happy now?

[edzontar]

92. Dean's stand on the deficit was more reasonale

He articulated that very clearly.

I also felt that his position on abortion rights was less muddled--sorry.....

In the end, what i preferred about him was the mixture of a kind of flinty New England pragmatism with a call for rigorous political reform.

He also just seemed tougher than DK.

[mopinko]

57. children

reducing child abuse by half in vermont was what attracted me to dean. it is my pet issue- take care of children, and lots of problems take care of themselves. both pragmatic, and correct.

[Ediacara]

11. Iraq War Exit Honesty

Abortion rights

[w4rma]

14. Dean was better able to successfully communicate and explain his positions

than DK was and, unlike DK, brought many of those positions into the mainstream. In fact, Kerry's platform is now pretty much the same platform that Dean explained on the campaign trail with some minor changes such as a tax cut repeal on only the $200K+ income folks.

[sangh0]

26. So your answer is "Dean no better on the issues"?

.

[w4rma]

28. I very much prefer Dean's position on guns.

I also prefer Dean's tendency towards pro-localism/one-size doesn't fit all on some issues.

[lastliberalintexas]

16. Probably not popular with you

or a majority of DUers, but for my beliefs, Dean was better on gun issues. I personally do not believe in the vast majority of gun "control" legislation that has been passed in the last decade, both on (small L) libertarian/civil rights grounds and for political reasons.

And while I am not looking for a flame war either since I like and respect Dennis, Dean had a better record on choice issues. I know that Dennis had a conversion on this issue over the last couple of years and I do respect that. But for me, the record was important too.

[sugarcookie]

18. Can't speak

for anyone else, but he was too far "left" for me. Also, I'd be lying if said his caucas deal with Edwards in Iowa didn't matter to me.
I do admire his determination to stay in and be heard and respect you for your efforts to promote him.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. So...the Edwards deal offended a lot of Dean supporters, but...

in Minnesota, most Dean supporters went for Edwards. :shrug:

[sugarcookie]

71. As I stated in the very first line of my post

I can't/don't speak for anyone else. Just being truthful..it did bother me.

I respect the decision of any former Dean supporter to support Edwards. I chose not to...I voted for Dean last week in Texas.

[Armstead]

19. The triumph of Velveeta Politics

Apparently, people still want Velveeta politics. Safe and bland.

Here's my own thoughts anyway.

I've always thought Kucinich rocks. His ideas are basically my ideas. And the more I've seen of him the more I like and respect him. And my image of him has gradually come around to the point where I could actually picture him as a president.

After Dean dropped out, DK was the one I have supported because he has tried to get the issues out there, even though it was obvious that he wouldn't be the one to get the nomination.

I think Kucinich hasn't done better for two reasons. The smug media and the Democratic Smug Committee ignored him, so that peopel did not get a chance to hear him out in a reasonable setting.

Also, let's be honest. Kucinich has not been very good as a presidential campaign in these shallow times. He's too individualistic and uncompromising to fill the bill of the image that even liberals have as a president. And he tended to come off as shrill in the debates.

Dean, IMO, was the kind of compromise candidate that the "pragmatic" Democrats seemed to suggest that liberals and progressives should support. Someone who was not in the classic DLC straightjacket, but who was moderate and mainstream enough to get elected.

I also like Dean. He's not as pure liberal oir progressive as DK, but he is what I think of as a classic moderate liberal in the good sense. He was willing to address the core problem of power and money today, at least. And he stood up for the spirit of when libral was not considered a dirty word.

I also think Dean brought a sense of honesty to the campaign. he didn't always speak in soundbytes. He wasn't afraid to think out loud, or use phrases that most peope use in conversation to make a point. Nor was he politically correct -- I like that.

And he seemd "likable" when he wasn't shouting. He had that "guy you'd like to have a beer with" factor when he loosened up.

Anyway, I think the anti-Velveeta vote probably got split too many ways and it all happened fast after Iowa. So there was no chance to change the course of the Kerry ABB bandwagon.

[RichM]

30. "More likable, less accurate?"

So, you envisioned Dean as sort of a trade-off, where he offered more
electability, though perhaps less rigorous merit in his overall analysis?

It sounds like you wound up voting yesterday for Dennis in MA? Might a nosy busybody reasonably infer that?

[Armstead]

34. I'll never tell

I'll let you infer whatever you like. Let's just say I prefer sharp Vermont Cheese over Velveeta. :evilgrin:

No that was just a joke. Wish I'd thought of it earlier in the process when Dean was still in.

But seriously,I'll keep my vote to myself. Just a little personal policy I have about the primaries. But I do hope Kucinich can find some way to take his message to the convention, and I'll be looking for ways to help keep it alive.

In the meantime I'll be looking for as many silver linings as possible. Or, to use my original metaphor, at least try to find some peppers in the Velveeta.

[no name no slogan]

59. Excellent response

If this were 1988, I probably would have supported Dean over Kucinich-- I worked for Dukakis in '88, although my ideals were much closer to Jackson or Simon. However, I felt Dukakis was "electable" and had a better delivery that would appeal to middle America moreso than the others.

But, seeing as the Clinton years didn't do much for Democrats on the whole (we lost ground in congress, state houses, etc), I felt that this year I needed to get behind a solid progressive who not only talked a good game but had a solid record to prove it.

I agree that the media and the party have either overtly or covertly tried to trivialize Dennis Kucinich as just a left-wing wacko, when almost all of his core issues have been Democratic Party tenets for years: universal health care, protecting US jobs, expanded education funding, improving infrastructure, etc.

Unfortunately, this is 2004, and the Democrats are gripped by THE FEAR® that BushCo has been perpetuating since 9/11. People are afraid to follow their convictions because they're so obsessed with THE FEAR®.

As FDR said in a time that was much more trying than this one: "We have nothing to fear but fear itself".

I hope them Dems can overcome this fear. If we can't, then the Repubs have already won.

[eyesroll]

20. For me, it was about Dean's pragmatism

I'm a former diehard, now a waverer (is that a word?) but I still voted for him, with reservation, in Wisconsin.

Not everything about politics is agreement on the issues. I appreciated Dean's willingness to look at facts and make up his mind based on facts, not polls. (Whether this is actually true or not -- it's how I saw him when I made up my mind.) Dean's reasoning for his decisions just resonated with me more.

DK, on the other hand, always seemed to me to be pretty all-or nothing.
Not a lot of nuance. He didn't come off as someone who was willing to compromise -- he wouldn't settle for less than 100% universal, single-payer health care. Would he sign an interim measure, or would he hold out, and risk coming up with nothing (a la Clinton)? His supporters in my area tried to convince me he would compromise, but I just couldn't see it. (Again, all about gut and perception. One could just as easily prefer "sticking to your guns" to compromise.) Dean, on the other hand, said he'd support single-payer if it actually passed and could be paid for, but thought a compromise would be easier to get passed.

Frankly, also, his rhetoric can be kind of off-putting (flaky?) to someone who's not expecting it.

I liked Kucinich a lot; still do. I'd like to see him in House leadership.

Simply put, I liked Dean's style better. He seemed to be running for president of the United States that is; Kucinich seems to be running for president of the United States he wants. I'm more practical than imaginitive, when it comes down to it, though I'm loathe to admit it.

That's me, anyway.

[tobius]

21. Dean is better on any marriage issue.

Dean is married.

[On the Road]

22. Balanced Budgets, for One

Fiscally, I'm more conservative than a lot of other folks here on DU. The danger of growing defecits is even greater than in 1992, and it's being ignored. Dean is the only one who took the bull by the horn and recommended repealing all of the Bush tax cuts.

I agree that Kucinich had all the elements of a progressive platform. His health care plan was far-reaching and definitely the best.

I don't pick a candidate just on a platform, however, but on the ability to govern. I actually don't want someone who governs by picking the top issues of each constituency and supporting those. (That's what Bush does.) I want someone who takes charge of the whole country and thinks though what would be best for the nation as a whole. That's what I saw in Dean -- an independent executive with conviction and the right priorities.

[Ravy]

23. Dean appeared to be able to make it happen....

he talked like it could happen, made you believe it could happen.

DK, although right on the issues, correctly pointed out that he was one of the FEW who took the stands that he did. Very laudable and courageous. The other side of that coin, however, is that he wasn't persuasive enough to get more people over to his side for the votes in the house.

It appears to me that if DK was president, he would be a lone wolf who is correct (to my thinking) on the issues, but unable to bend congress toward his will.

All that being said, I voted for DK today (absentee in the FLA primary) because what DK really offers is a chance to keep Kerry's feet to the fire, to not forget the most progressive among us. And DK staying in the race does just that.

The party (in my opinion) owes great thanks to Howard Dean for taking the stands that he did.. for defining our issues and ultimately our platform. He brought lots of attention and people to the primary process.

We also owe thanks to DK, who has a following far above what his vote tally shows.

[RichM]

27. One objection to this, though, is that Dennis DID succeed in persuading

the House to his side. He led the resistance to the IWR, and got 130 or so Dems to oppose the resolution. That was roughly 60% of House Dems at the time.

Dennis often contrasted himself in the debates with "all the others on this stage..." but that meant just the presidential candidates, not the House Dems.

But I see your point about his potentially becoming a correct "lone wolf," as president. And I certainly agree that Dean deserves a lot of credit for his stands.

And thank you for being one of the Dean supporters who did indeed wind up supporting Dennis.

[Sushi-Lover]

24. For me the difference is pragmatism

I do think that Kucinich's positions on issues like health care and NAFTA probably represent the ideal, but I don't think they represent the possible (at least not in one step). I also tend to support more centrist candidates for the presidency because it is more important that the President be able to communicate effectively with both sides of the aisle then that he represent my views 100% on the issues. Dean's positions are appealing to me because they are intelligent and pragmatic, taking us a workable step closer to the goal.

Another thing is that I think the Democratic message needs a bit of a makeover. People have heard it all before and it starts to sound like a message crafted at a 70s audience instead of 2004. I'm not sure quite how to do it, but our positions need to be repackaged and polished up a bit and then it should be sell sell sell all the time from all Democrats. I think Dean took a step in this direction by making old positions sound new again and by explaining why his positions were the correct ones instead of backing off from them.

It is hard to sum up why I always preferred Dean to Kucinich. Maybe, at first, it was partially about electability, but after I learned a lot more about Dean I realized that his positions were closer to what I think could actually be realized in the near future and I thought his analysis of what the Democratic strategy should be in 2004 was dead on correct.

Now is the part where I state that I really do like Kucinich even if I never supported him as a candidate. He is a good man and we need him.

[maxanne]

31. more noxious flame bait

more opportunity to abuse Dean supporters.


The bottomless need for this is astounding.

[sangh0]

33. ridiculous

Even most of the Dean supporters responding in this thread are saying it was Dean's pragmatism that accounts for their support, and not any issues.

As far as issues go, Dean supporters have mentioned guns and abortion. One poster erroneously said that Dean was more consistently opposed to the Iraq invasion.

[maxanne]

36. thanks

sangh0. I'm glad to see you're interested in uniting not dividing.

[deutsey]

37. I thought us Dean supporters were supposed to be the "true believers"

Many Kerry supporters here fit that bill a lot better...

[sangh0]

39. You shouldn't talk

Your post, short as it is" is filled with hostile words and phrases like "noxious flame bait", "abuse Dean supporters", and "bottomless need" and short on fact

The only hostile word in my post was the subject line "ridiculous", and I included info from this thread.

summary:

You - hostile, no facts
Me - civil and factual

[maxanne]

42. bwaahhahaha

me - rational
you - delusional

[sangh0]

49. more hostile words

.

[Sushi-Lover]

45. Pragmatism is an issue for me

My post was not meant to imply that there were no reasons I supported Dean over Kucinich based on issues. I do not think we can completely remove all US troops from Iraq in the period of time Kucinich is proposing, for example. If the issue is anti-Iraq war alone than you are correct, but I think that differences on how to deal with the situation are legit differences on issues. I was using pragmatism as short hand for all the reasons I agreed more with Dean on the issues while I agree with both Dean and Kucinich on the ideal. I should have targeted my response more toward issue differences than using a summarizing term, I suppose. So let me restate my positions on the issues of guns, Iraq war exit, fiscal responsibility and health care reform are much closer to Dean's then Kucinich's.

That being said, I don't think the original post is flame bait. This is a question that a lot of Kucinich supporters probably have and I can see exactly why they have a hard time figuring it out.

[sangh0]

50. Thanks you

While I Don't think pragmatism is an issue, HD and DK's differences on pulling out of Iraq is definitely an issue.

And yes, I do suspect that some are using pragmatism as short hand for something else. And though I prefer Kerry, and have for a while, I have also wondered about this question.

[Cheswick2.0]

88. so sangho, why do you prefer DK to Dean?

? :eyes:

[Duder]

40. "Better" is subjective but...

You could look at it as DK being a standard 20th - century progressive versus Dean's 21st - century progressive approach. Take for example the issue of healthcare. One might ideally prefer DK's plan but it's not unrealistic to predict that it would fall victim to the congressional process. It would fail and so nobody would benefit. Dean by expanding existing healthcare plans would have a better chance of success and therefore some people would be helped. If you view Dean's plan as a first step towards DK's goal of full coverage, then your choice is which path is better. You can go for it all with a strong possibility of ending up with nothing or you can move ahead with steps towards that same goal. So it's not just a question of the issues but the path chosen to achieve one's goals.

[sangh0]

43. You could say something similar about IWR

One might ideally prefer DK's plan but it's not unrealistic to predict that it would fall victim to the congressional process.

One might prefer Dean's position on IWR but it's not unrealistic to predict that it would fall victim to the congressional process,

[Duder]

51. Not really...

Both Dean and DK opposed the IWR but for different reasons. DK's opposition was more from pacifistic grounds whereas Dean's opposition was more from a lack of proven necessity. Of course had either been Commander-in-Chief there likely would not have been an IWR before Congress.

[sangh0]

56. But either way

it wouldn't have been irrational to predict that Congress would get in the way of that opposition. In fact, it did.

[GreenArrow]

DK's position was not pacifistic

it was based on the fact that the whole stinking war was sold with LIES.

[mrgorth]

44. Death penalty

I'm for it.

[GumboYaYa]

47. A woman's right to choose.....

DK came late to the party on that one. I still question the strength of his conversion on this issue.

[NoPasaran]

52. Dean is better on national security

While opposing Bush*s idiotic invasion of Iraq in 2003, Dean supported our intervention in Afghanistan to topple the Taliban terrorists and the 1991 Gulf War to expel Iraqi forces that had invaded and occupied Kuwait, a friendly country. Over the course of numerous debates I heard Kucinich express his opposition to all of these actions. This leads me to believe that DK doesn't believe that any use of military force by the US is justified outside our borders. I don't aggree with this position. And it certainly would be a suicidal stance for our party to adopt.

[ozone_man]

54. I think it is much more than any one issue.

Dean is a pragmatist and knows which issues can be pressed forward at this point in time. He is an executive and knows how to work a consensus to get things done and had a track record of achievements from Civil Unions to health care in Vermont.

We can't achieve every progressive goal in one fell swoop and this seems to be the approach Kucinich takes. We are not going to get single payer health care in 2004, but maybe 2008. Things like this take time, and the pendulum may be swinging back but slowly. Kerry is only marginally better the Bush, but the pendulum, or more accurately TPTB and media, would not let us get a Dean or Kucinich at this point.

It hurts the left to be marginalized as "fringe leftists" by a flake candidate that represents us, no matter how good and progressive the message is. I agree with most of DK's positions, except his past abortion position. But he just is not presidential material IMO. He should stay in Congress where he can be effective.

But you are right about one thing. That the progressives should have gotten behind one candidate instead of being fractured as they were. That candidate should have been Dean, who got ever so close this time.

My own favorite politician is Bernie Sanders, and I vote for him every time, but I am not going to suggest that he run for President, even as a Democrat. I think Dean was the best choice for progressives to actually get a candidate elected who would fight for real (achievable) progressive change.

[dsc]

55. Several things

First, and this may not be everyone's definition of an issue, but Kucinich at times felt he was running for dictator and not President. Way too many times he talked about using executive orders to override Congress or the Supreme Court, and his talk of ending NAFTA, no matter the merits of that issue, sounded dictitorial. The amount of power a President has or should have is an issue to me.

Second, Kucinich had the wrong position on DOMA when it mattered. Record matters. I don't think it is unreasonable for either pro choicers or pro gay rights people to wonder what his real position is.

Third, Kucinich's Iraq position now that we are in there is unrealistic. We can't just leave the mess we made. Both Dean and Kucinich were correct to oppose the war, but even bad promises have to be kept on occasion.

[no name no slogan]

65. IMHO DK's Iraq position has been misinterpreted/misrepresented

DK in no way believed we should "cut and run" in Iraq. He has said, repeatedly, that we should pay for the mess we made, and give control of the country to Iraqis-- not to Halliburton and other western multinationals who are eagerly waiting to privatize Iraq's economy for their own benefit.

DK advocates bringing in a true international coalition to supervise the rebuilding of Iraq-- one that is not obligated to do things the way BushCo thinks they should be done.

At this stage, the Americans are seen as an occupying army, and are losing the battle day by day. Keeping the Americans in Iraq to rebuild the country would be a bit like letting the Nazis stay in control of Germany after WWII so they could clean up the mess they made.

I understand your concerns re: executive power, and the points are well taken. I can also relate to your concerns re: DOMA, as well. IMHO Dennis supported it because his district is socially conservative, and he was reflecting the views of his constituents. After all, even Paul Wellstone voted for DOMA at the time, a vote he later regretted.

Being an elected representative is always a balance between doing what you feel is right and representing your district. I admire anybody who can successfully balance these interests and stay true to their beliefs.

You posted a very good response. Nice work!

[dsc]

68. thank you

[Cheswick2.0]

89. Exactly, and I am not happy with DK's votes on several bills

one was the vote to allow children to be tried as adults. That is a big issue with me. His vote for the anti-flag burning legislation was incomprehensible to me. Pair those with his voting record on Choice and I conclude he is an authoritarian lefty while I am a libertarian lefty.
His little deal with Edwards in Iowa turned me off to him for good.

[9119495]

60. THE ANSWER IS... Education!

Dean never did (and would not have) voted for No Child Left Behind. Dennis did, regardless of his feelings about it now. This is a HUGE issue as it is little more than a ploy to get vouchers and private schools (read: religious schools) to take over education.

[ChiefJoseph]

61. He once actually had a good chance of being elected President.

[rucky]

62. I think Dean has a better stance on guns

The way I see it, If you're into the whole respect for personal decisions/personal responsibility thing, it would be consistant to kick the gun issue to the states.

[progressivebydesign]

63. Here are my reasons to choose Dean.

I liked that he is a physician. That is important to me. I have a lot of respect for the profession.. and I think it shows his level of caring for others.

I liked that he had domestic management experience (no, he wasn't a housewife), he was a very successful governor. Proved by his stunning 5 time re-election.

I liked that when Dean spoke of health care in America (a number one issue for me) he came from experience as both a provider and as a manager.

I like what he did for Vermont. I was quite envious of their insurance and domestic programs. The work they did to help abused women was just phenomenal.

I just like him. I like that he always has a laugh going, I like how passionate he is about domestic issues, I like that he plays guitar. It's like choosing a friend or a spouse.. there are certain things that speak to you, that are indescribable. If it were soley issues.. then Dukakis or Tsongas would have won handily. Both are/were brilliant men. It's about personal preference. It's about what you bring to the equation.

I got behind Dean right after I read an article in which the writer described going into Dean's house, while Dean helped his son with a kayak. The writer was left in the house alone by Dean, who said.. 'snoop around, open the medicine cabinets, whatever you want', and left for a little while. The description of the house, Dean's clothing, and his attitude told me that he was different, and he was real. I want real.

It's not a referndum against DK. It's just personal preference.

[OhioStateProgressive]

83. you chose stupidly(nt)

[Cheswick2.0]

90. I am sure we are still taking more delegates to Boston, so perhaps

it is not us who chose stupidly.
DK supporters remind me of Nader supporters. They think everyone will love their candidate if they just had the guts to not go for the safe choice. It is always a suprize that many of us who are liberal might just happen to dislike their candidate for reasons they ignore as being unimportant.
My secound never would have been DK based on my perception of him as a know it all authoritarian. CMB was my 2nd. I am a staunch pro-choice feminist.

[progressivebydesign]

64. But it's not about one issue... it's about personal preference..

I liked that he is a physician. That is important to me. I have a lot of respect for the profession.. and I think it shows his level of caring for others.

I liked that he had domestic management experience (no, he wasn't a housewife), he was a very successful governor. Proved by his stunning 5 time re-election.

I liked that when Dean spoke of health care in America (a number one issue for me) he came from experience as both a provider and as a manager.

I like what he did for Vermont. I was quite envious of their insurance and domestic programs. The work they did to help abused women was just phenomenal.

I just like him. I like that he always has a laugh going, I like how passionate he is about domestic issues, I like that he plays guitar. It's like choosing a friend or a spouse.. there are certain things that speak to you, that are indescribable. If it were soley issues.. then Dukakis or Tsongas would have won handily. Both are/were brilliant men. It's about personal preference. It's about what you bring to the equation.

I got behind Dean right after I read an article in which the writer described going into Dean's house, while Dean helped his son with a kayak. The writer was left in the house alone by Dean, who said.. 'snoop around, open the medicine cabinets, whatever you want', and left for a little while. The description of the house, Dean's clothing, and his attitude told me that he was different, and he was real. I want real.

It's not a referndum against DK. It's just personal preference.

[ChiefJoseph]

66. Oh, and Dean didn't flip-flop on abortion.

Flip....flop.

[ldoolin]

67. 1. Abortion 2. Guns

nt

[CTLawGuy]

69. Dean does not want to start

trade wars with other countries by repealing all our trade agreements.

[ashular]

70. a kucinich supporter, so not exactly on topic

but a large part of you say you supported dean based on his pragmatism. call me an idealist, but how are we ever supposed to go above and beyond if we're always willing to settle for less?

[mvd]

76. Welcome to DU!

As a fellow Kucinich supporter, I find Dean better on the flag burning issue and maybe on being more committed to a balanced budget - though I would redistribute the taxes quite a bit to do it. Kucinich IMO is not an idealist - he's a big thinker. Even bigger than Dean. That's what we need IMO. There's no reason we can't have a better America for many. I agree with DK on everything from trade agreements to health care to the Iraq war to abortion (current position) to death penalty to guns (agree with Kucinich on national control, licensing, and a fingerprint database of guns used in crimes - agree less on ban of assualt weapons as I think a ban should be based on actual danger instead, and not many should be banned.) Dean was my #2 when he was in, so I feel I can comment.

[REP]

72. Reproductive Rights, Gun Control and Health Care

Not to mention he was able to win his home state - even after he'd withdrawn.

There's nothing about Kucinich's politics of expedience that I find admirable.

[DFLforever]

73. I had a feeling of confidence with Dean I've never had with DK

While I often liked what DK said and felt he was inspired, I never had any confidence in his ability to implement his ideas. Some of his proposals like the Dept of Peace seem a million miles away from the imperial USA of today.

I have a special respect for Dean which developed over many months of support. He seems a man of integrity, all of a piece in his public and private life; and most importantly, fearless, when it counted most, and outspoken in conviction when so many Democrats were appeasing the Bush regime.

[MercutioATC]

74. "Better" is a matter of preference. Dean was "better" to me on nearly ALL

of the issues.

I preferred his position on abortion, education, the war and what to do with it now, trade agreemements, gun control, same-sex union rights, what to do with the Patriot act,...well, just about everything.

I also thought his pragmatism was "better" than what I see to be Kucinich's blind idealism.

[Mick Knox]

75. Deans tall!

last guy to win at DK's size was Madison.

That being said.. Kerry is Taller than Buuuuzh

Yea!

[hellhathnofury]

77. My reasons. I'm to tired to argue them.

1. Abortion, record matters.

2. Guns.

3. Healthcare and childrens issues-realism and passion.

4. Trade, you can't just repeal things like that.

5. Education. DK voted for NCLB.

6. Death Penalty.

7. Fiscal Conservatism.

8. IWR, I wasn't all out against doing something about Saddam. I just thought that Bush was the wrong guy to give authority to do it. I wanted a more limited approach.

[dkf]

78. Everything but especially fiscal responsibility

I thought he did a fabulous job in Vermont and I'm starting to really envy Vermonters.

He could have brought this magic to the entire United States but his own party decided to bring him down in order to anoint a guy who doesn't say much because he doesn't want to take any risks.

The Democratic Party needs to be overhauled big time. And that is now my main and #1 goal.

We need to expect more from our higher ups. Expect integrity and decency. That is why I am having to bring a barf bag to the polls in November. And if I don't need a barf bag its because I voted 3rd party.

[Guava Jelly]

79. Dean doesnt resemble Gollum

looks are alot Dennis looks like a troll

[OhioStateProgressive]

82. shallow

You are.

[OhioStateProgressive]

80. there aren't any real issues he was better on

So basically every answer you get that lists a position that Dean was better on is pure bullshit.

[mandyky]

81. I liked that Dean was NOT an ideologue

and that made me trust him. While some people think it is flip flopping, I like a person who will change their mind on issues, if facts warrant.

[CWebster]

85. Personal preference, I suppose

Kucinich, in my opinion, preaches to the choir--it is not his message, it is the candidate that comes up wanting. I found Dean more approachable and better grounded in reality - with a broader appeal. For example, I can't imagine Dean taking some of the strickly ideological positions Kucinich has championed, notably on women's rights. I was uncomfortable with Kucinich's willingness to throw his supporters to Edwards, trivializing the issues he presently claims to take a strong stand on. Plus, I have strong connections to Vermont, and am familiar with the views of many Vermonters who enthusiatically speak of Dean's accomplishments as a solid Governor.

Just some random thoughts.

[messiah]

86. After looking at this thread

it seems that we are literally centuries away from electing A Kucinich type progressive president in this country:thumbsdown:.