I am very disappointed in the progressive community...We have learned nothing

[debbierlus]

So, after eight years, THIS is what we get....

Rallying around corporatist candidates who are not even PRETENDING to offer any kind of substantive change, in the name of hope.

Hope.

It is like we are trying to pretend the last eight years didn't even happen. Our treasury is bankrupt, our military is broken, and we have lost our place in the world economy. We have financed the mass killing of over a million innocent people in Iraq. We have set fire to a new generation of anti-american extremists. The global corporate machine is turning all of humanity into slave labor. Our health cares system is broken.

Jesus tap dancing Christ. You are supporting candidates who won't even TALK about the real issues. Kucinich tried - he was ignored & dismissed by the progressives as unelectable (hell, if WE can't rally behind a candidate who speaks truth and allow the media to dictate our candidate, how our we different from the repukes???). Let's post on a message board & clap our hands for what he said, but elect candidates who will not practice or implement ANY of it.

Granted, Edwards is addressing a key factor in the broken system - corporate ownership. However, the media has shut him off, & I see people on this board defecting to one of the 'electable' canidates. The corporate powers that be must be wetting their pants laughing at us. All they have to do is change the look & the message, & offer candidates who we can FEEL good about. And, that is what this is about, isn't it? Because, it is certainly not about anything substantive like talking about reality, consequences, sacrifices, & sufferings. It isn't about addressing a accelerated global warming that threatens to destroy all life on the planet within the next fifty to hundred years.

We must ask ourselves, what is our GOAL? And, how do we accomplish it? Are we really committed to changing the healthcare system so that everyone has access to decent affordable care? How exactly do you do that with candidates who won't address the core issue of what is destroying it (PROFIT OVER PEOPLE)? And, do you really think we stand a snowball's chance in hell of addressing the crisis of energy & global warming with people who believe that NUCLEAR power plants can be part of the solution? The reality: you DON'T.

What is happening right now is incredibly dangerous. If we allow the corporate fascist powers that be to place a person in the White House that will give the ILLUSION & not the action of change, we will have been complacent in a masquerade that could set the progressive movement back years.

But, hey, as long as we can hope and feel good? Who cares about reality?

[Armstead]

1. A depressed K&R

You're right.

I'm probably guilty of it myself. I was hopeful in the pre-nomination days that the issue od Wealth and Power would actually be on the table this time.

Now I find myself fatalistically gravitating towards Obama -- even though Kucinich really spoke for me, and Edwards is the next closest -- and now even he is being marginalized and ignored, despite his appeal to many people who actually see him, and learn about him.

With Obama, all I can do is hope that Ted Kennedy is right and I'm wrong.

A Clinton vs. McCain or Romney election would be very ennervating and stagnant. An Obama vs McxCain or Romney might be socially more interesting, but in terms of Wealth and Power....who knows?

[SammyWinstonJack]

9. And another.

:-(

[flor de jasmim]

43. K&R

As a newcomer I am unfamiliar with this abbreviation and have tried unsuccessfully to figure it out. Will someone please clarify? Thanks.

[iris5426]

50. It means kick and recommend....I was confused when I first got here too :-)

Welcome to DU :hi:

[bagrman]

85. To kick somthing you just have to reply in some way thus k & r

[loudsue]

224. To reply to something does help to kick it. To recommend....

To recommend a post, you go to the gray bar at the bottom of the original post. On the left side of the gray bar, it says "Alert" and then "Hide Thread" and then "Recommend". You click "recommend" and it sends you to a little verification page, where you say, yes, you recommend it, and then you select an option to go back to the thread you were recommending.

[bagrman]

245. So by k & r'ing a post it doesn't help kick the post in the ratings?

[loudsue]

253. Sure it does!

;)

[earth mom]

67. Don't put your faith in other peoples "opinions" -especially the power elite.

Look where that has got us. Look at how disappointed must of us are in Pelosi. :(

[Gonnuts]

88. It's a set-up ... the fix was in from the beginning

We never really had a chance. Not by playing in their ball-park, by their rules.

There is no way any candidate that actually represents the people and isn't corporate approved can get past skewed polling and the BIG BAD Media Machine without being ignored, marginalized and ridiculed out of contention. And if by some miracle a true progressive were say through the power of the Internet by-pass the M$M and get to be the nominee, they'd never make it past Diebold.

My spin, if it's Hillary she will drive every Republican in the land to the polls and keep many democtratic voters home and Obama can't defeat the ingrained bigotry we have in this country, every closeted red-neck in the country will crawl out from under their rocks to defeat him.

So hence whomever the Rethugs put up gets the nod in yet another "very close race" - one more time - and we continue our slide into Hell.

[defendandprotect]

120. And everytime I ask, what is Plan B for Democrats . . . we have a BLANK in response . . .

'cause evidently Democrats are only willing to sit and let the DLC run the party like good
Republicans supporting corporate-fascism --- ???

[pokercat999]

196. "every closeted red-neck" and most of them live in PA, OH,

IL, IN, MO, KS, NY, MA, you get my drift. In the north and mid-west. They are not closeted in the South.

[crud76]

203. Ted Kennedy

IS wrong. His support of Obama came out of frustration with Bill Clinton being too imposing more than anything.

Since Kucinich is out, Edwards is the choice. Or CNN.

[crud76]

218. We've been had

again.

[debbierlus]

2. I honestly do not know which is best (worse)...

A pseudo-dem in the White House putting a happy face on it & perhaps, stemming some of the damage....with the real risk of the person bearing the burden of Bush's policies coming home to roost. This President could be the scapegoat for the very long term consequences of our policies.

Or, a Republican who we can defeat in four years with the chance of putting a reality/for the people President in the White House, a person who will not bear the burden of the people's anger and MAYBE could ellicit real change.

Neither scenario is great.

[HERVEPA]

12. Why do you think there's a snowball's chance in hell of a true progressive..

being elected in 4 years, if after Bush people would still vote for McCain or Mittens.

Dreaming is great, but the fact is that a hell of a lot of people (mostly poor, of color, glbt, etc.) will be significantly better off with either Clinton or McCain than a Repug.

[JAbuchan08]

23. Perhaps if real progressives voted for real progressives there would be a snowballs chance in hell

but half of the Democratic community seems to be more interested in sabotaging progressivism than anything else.

When you boil it down both the "pragmatic" wing of the Democratic party and the Republican party are saying the same thing "liberalism is bad."

[HERVEPA]

26. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately, from what I've seen here lately),

the DU community is in no way representative of Democrats in general.

[JAbuchan08]

35. I'm not sure either

On the one hand DU'ers seem to be somewhat better informed than the general populace, but they still have their petty loyalties and ideological purity tests. I'm not immune, but... I know that I'm primarily looking for a candidate that will fundamentally change the system so that this kind of behavior is not rewarded.

I think that the Dems are going in the right direction with their changes in the primary system, but we have a long way to go before we have true representation, and perhaps even longer before that is as a result of informed voting.

[creeksneakers2]

97. Not really

Its more of a question about how to get there. Kucinich didn't stay at 1% because of Diebold or a conspiracy by the media. He stayed at 1% because he and his followers believed having the right goals is enough. Its not.

Its a fight that won by yards in the mud and sleet. We don't get anywhere without calling smart plays and keeping the team together. The teams made up of members who all want to be quarterback and all want to quit if their play isn't called loses.

Pragmatists didn't sabotage progressivism. There wasn't enough there to ever float. The rest of the world is more concerned with results than symbols.

[JAbuchan08]

98. Maybe if people believed that doing the right thing was enough - it would be.

Your football metaphor is apt however. What the fuck difference does it make if the Giants beat the Patriots? In other words if we win, what do we win besides a football game?

[creeksneakers2]

100. Everybody has a different idea about what the right thing is

What do we win? Progress toward the goals the left shares. Its not going to all come overnight.

Some choose a political philosophy by picturing an ideal world and then making everything else either part of or contrary to the ideal world. The pictured ideal world though comes with no plan for how to construct it. Everybody else is supposed to imagine the same utopia and just make it happen. Its all supposed to just happen. Things don't just happen.

[defendandprotect]

123. While you "imagine" you still have to face reality--of stolen elections . . . since the mid-1960's??

And your own DLC setting you up for failure by soliciting "blue dogs" ---
what do you do with that information?

[creeksneakers2]

249. I'm not DLC. I don't believe election fraud took place

Except for the well known voter suppression efforts.

The answers to these things is to find like minded people and organize. 1% can't accomplish much on their own. We have to all stick together. We even have to reach out to the blue dogs sometimes. A blue dog Democrat may be the best we can do in some districts and they might help us sometimes.

[RaleighNCDUer]

199. That's easy for you to say now

after all your anti-Kucinich bullshit over the past couple years.

fuck the DLC!

[creeksneakers2]

250. I don't remember spreading anti-Kucinich bullshit

I said that the ideas he represents aren't popular enough to get somebody elected and his followers ought to compromise more.

Do you mean John Edwards? I was really mad at him and trashed him every day for about three weeks and a few times since then. I was mad at Edwards for hurting party prospects, which is what I'm talking about here. We all have to work together.

I'm not DLC. The DLC wants to continue the military industrial complex and the huge military it requires. I want to get rid of most of the military.

[RaleighNCDUer]

254. You have been anti-anyonenotHillary. And it is really amusing to

hear you claim to not be DLC when Hillary is THE DLC candidate.

[flasoapbox]

209. Please no football analogies

Let's leave that to the rightards.

[Ken Burch]

70. ER...did you MEAN to say "with Clinton or MCCAIN than a Repug"?

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

[defendandprotect]

122. McCain is a Repug . . . ???

[HERVEPA]

237. Whoops. My post above should have read Clinton or OBAMA!

[bobbolink]

25. Which is best? Remember the story about the frog and the boiling water?

The slow boil kills the frog.

Putting the frog into boiling water, and it jumps out and saves itself.

I think that little proverb is having more and more meaning in real life.......

:(

kick for a great OP!

:kick:

[Ken Burch]

58. Why assume we HAVE to settle for a "pseudo-Dem"?

The polls show majority for progressive positions on almost all major issues. We AREN'T outnumbered anymore, people, we can win on what we want!

[defendandprotect]

124. Unfortunately, we have a corporate-media which doesn't want that to work --- !!!

[defendandprotect]

121. I don't see how the GOP could let any Democrat move into the White House???

They have too much to hide --- though Democrats are usually so accommodating that they probably
can count on Dems keeping much of this covered up for them --- and leave behind a lot of landmines
to keep other things covered up. But, I'm not sure of this --- I think we'll see another computer
steal.


A pro-war vote for the little old guy?

[fenriswolf]

3. hay don't look at me

I gave all I could to kucinich including time and money. Did my part.

[Skittles]

171. same here

it makes me sick how many DUers dismissed him because the media did

[KoKo]

4. We still are not loud and well funded enough to get our voices heard

in the MSM. Until we are...there will always be a "Compromiser" followed by cheering throngs throwing bread crumbs to the masses that are treated like gold nuggets by the MSM.

[defendandprotect]

125. The elite are organized in every way --- the public barely at all ---- !!!

[denem]

5. People here feel good about hating.

A rabid denunciation of corporate and entrenched interests is what they want "They are stealing your children's future" - what could be more raw and fear mongering than that.

FDR, the icon of liberalism, did not use particularly confrontational language about knocking business lights out. He was selling a message of hope. His New Deal, remained fuzzy and difficult to pin down. It was only once he was in the White House that it became clear that the New Deal was a sharp to the left.

Edwards message needs to be heard loud and clear. It's popular will that can turn the tide. But announcing to all and sundry "I am your enemy" is simply poor politics. Unless you are clearly heading for a landslide, it's not smart to overplay your hand

[Armstead]

7. Class war was declared about 30 years ago by the elites

Return fire is long overdue.

[amborin]

241. not serious, are you?

30 years ago??????


when did you last open a us history text?

never?

don't you know the struggles of workers in the 20s, 30s, and earlier, to unionize?

don't you know what happened during the mccarthy era?

huh????

[Afje]

20. FDR had no choice -

it was the dismal conditions that led to the popular support for the New Deal. The old deal just wasn't working for people. We are well on our way for another new deal. It just ain't bad enough yet and Americans are famous for their capacity of denial.

[defendandprotect]

126. Let's not ask any Democrats to hid who they are --- and, I don't think FDR

knew the full extent of the problem until he took office --- and the response required a total
shift to the left.

Additionally, FDR was eloquent, but he didn't pull any punches with the elite ---
read or listen to some of his speeches.

No -- Edwards has simply been honest --- and his message is as a populist message should be.

On the other hand, we have two corporate-candidates --- and that is sticking out all over.
Let's look at that!!!

[jasmine621]

6. You know, progressives have to get into office first before they can

make a real difference.

[debbierlus]

8. And?

That is kind of my point, what the hell are we doing?

[yurbud]

10. if the candidates talk a solid progressive line, corporations will shut them out like Kucinich, so..

So once one of the surviving candidates gets into office, we need to pressure them to change the system to make it more possible for a true progressive to get in with media reform, clean money, and election protection.

[JAbuchan08]

24. It's only successful if you listen

re: corporations will shut them out like Kucinich.

[defendandprotect]

127. Excuse me ... are you saying the corporatists don't KNOW who will do their bidding

and who won't ... probably from the day these people enter politics --- ???

You're kidding, right???

[Lorien]

131. And where are the Progressives?

the media sure isn't showing us any, so we just vote for whoever the heck has a (D) behind their name. Often that (D) doesn't denote anything more than the fact that that person's district has historically voted for Democrats, and saying that they are a democrat was the way to win their seat.

[corkhead]

11. Spot On!

concise and to the point. I wish I knew why this is happening. I thought it would be different this election.


I should know better.

[asdjrocky]

13. Great post, K&R!

[OneGrassRoot]

14. Okay, I'm seeing two takes here on DU:

First, I couldn't agree more with the OP. I've been posting the same myself, and specifically asking those who denounce the label of "class warfare" why they fear acknowledging it?

My impression is there are two camps:

1. The hope camp. Those who really want unity and equality but feel the only want to get someone elected who can bring this about is to work within the system. They may agree with the OP, but they have to hope the candidate will do something about the way our country has been taken over by Corporate America. Even though the candidate hasn't come out and addressed this issue - for fear of a) being ignored by MSM like Edwards and Kucinich; or b) scaring the electorate and beltway with talk of anything but bipartisan unity - they hope that this will be done even though it's too risky to come out and say it during the campaign.

2. The flat-out, in-your-face, here-is-the-truth about our democracy camp. We believe the situation is so dire that platitudes and nuanced language and, indeed, working within the given system will get us nowhere. We believe we have to acknowledge the corporatocracy our nation has become, call it out loud and clear to bring awareness, and then get people into power who have also acknowledged it and called it out for what it is. Loud and clear. Changing the system in regards to HOW he/she gets into office, let alone changing the system once in office.


Edit for damn speedtype software snafu

[Armstead]

15. I think the Wellstone -- Bernie Sanders model is the answer

They are between those two extremes.

Their underlying message is (was) the truth about the corporatocracy.

But they have (had) a way of "packagning" it in ways that average working people can understand and support. And they had a basic honesty and passion that people respect, even those who disagree.

Bernie doesn't get sidetracked by wedge issues. He speaks for working people, and they see it. Therefore he has been able to build a large coalition that ranges from lefties to latte liberals to cantankerous working class yankees and the poor.

Wellstone did much the same in Minnesota.

[OneGrassRoot]

19. I've always loved Vermont...lol

Do you see Edwards as having the same message but not packaging it in a manner to appeal to the groups you listed? I think he does it well, it just doesn't get heard and gets lost in the midst of the silly, non-issue-oriented coverage in the media.



http://bernie.org/?page_id=77#corp

CORPORATE CONTROL OF THE MEDIA -
Perhaps earlier than any other member of Congress, Bernie Sanders has been leading the charge against the growing consolidation of media in America and the dangers imposed on our democracy when a handful of corporations control what we see, hear and read. During the last year Bernie held the first Congressional Town Meeting on Corporate Control of the Media and has invited such media activists as Bob McChesney and John Nichols to Vermont. He has also introduced legislation that would rescind the terrible FCC decision of June 2, 2003 that would allow for more media consolidation and has presented the Speaker of the House with a letter signed by over 200 members demanding a vote on a Resolution of Disapproval with regard to that FCC decision.

[Armstead]

29. Bernie is unvarnished -- That's the key

Frankly, I don't think it's rocket science why people like Bernie and other progressives are successful.

The thing about Bernie, and Wellstone and numerous other SUCCESSFUL progressive Democrats in Congress is that they have been consistent. They seldom shade things or equivocate, and they act according to their beliefs.

Unlike the Centrist Democrats, there's very little of the kind of Kremlin Watching necessary to interpret their positions. "Did Bernie vote for this bill because he is trying to appeal to red-headed soccer moms?"

Generally, agree or disagree, people know that folks like Bernie are voting for what they believe in, and they see what they do as advancing the interests of the people they represent. And people appreciate that.

Frankly, although I believe he is totally sincere, Edwards suffers in part from his earlier centrism. That dilutes the impression people have of him, and makes too many peopel suspicious that his message now is spin rather than heartfelt.

[Lifelong Protester]

235. Senator Edwards was in Minnesota last night

on a very cold night where NO travel was advised, and 1200 supporters heard his message, especially liking his invocation of the spirit of Paul Wellstone.

I am just so glum this morning, I don't know what to do. I feel like I should still cast my vote for Edwards in November. It will have to take some act of bravery (or overcoming my common sense) to cast a vote for the corporatists who are yet running.

[vanboggie]

220. I'm in the 2nd camp

I'm done. I know why the Mayan calendar stops in 2012 now.

[OneGrassRoot]

244. I know...I'm devastated right now. n/t

[Yael]

16. Good post - K&R

HIGHLY kicking and Overwhelmingly recommending.

[blues90]

17. I hear you and agree .

[cobalt1999]

18. Who cares about reality? I do which is why I voted today for Hillary.

You are correct, this country is in a hell of a mess here and internationally.

You know what I want now? Someone who is intelligent and effective.

Kucinich is correct on the issues, but I never believed he'd actually get anything implemented.

If I may use an analogy: It's like you are starving and you have two cooks offering you a meal you need to have. Kucinich is offering you a nice steak, the others are offering a hamburger. However, Kucinich is the bumbling cook who can't find or cook anything. You can either gamble he MIGHT be able to make that steak, or you order your hamburger from someone you know will be able to provide it.

It may sound silly, but the media wasn't part of many of us not supporting the most progressive candidate, it was more about who will really be able to get this country out of the ditch it is in.

Once it is on the road again, maybe we can gamble a bit.

[debbierlus]

37. You mean the woman who just voted to declare Iran's independent army terrorists.....

She can keep her f*)*)King hamburger.

[flasoapbox]

210. LOL LOL LOL

Indeed!

[defendandprotect]

128. Good Heavens! . . . these are the only choices you think you have???

You're describing an express train to Auschwitz --- or a local --- !!!!

Look at any of the Populist uprisings ---
they didn't decide on letting someone else have a say in where they were going!!!

Maybe . . . ??? You can live for "maybe" . . . ???

What you've accepted in Hillary is a DLC candidate --- who will give you more corporate-fascism and nothing that you want ---

that is . . . even if she gets elected --- and that's a huge question.

The attacks will begin and it will be Bill Clinton's penis all over again ---

[amborin]

240. exactly

kucinich's agenda was great....but could you really trust him to have the capability to implement even one item?

as for edwards....sure his rhetoric was great....but his actions repeatedly contradicted his rhetoric

empathy for the working man? okay, but don't get a $400 haircut, that is obscene

worried about global climate change? then don't go out and have two more children, there are currently 336 million americans and counting....the planet simply cannot sustain the energy drain, pollution, loss of bio diversty, etc....

going to go after the big, bad corporations? how, exactly?

filing lawsuits for patient plaintiffs is not the same thing as controlling corps' political power....edwards would not have a clue

[Desertrose]

21. Excellent post. Progressives have NOT been able to get it together....

I completely agree. But why haven't we? For one thing, it has been made very difficult for us to do so.

Even here on DU -democratic underground for gods sake...UNDERGROUND? Maybe once but no more....

Progressives have been made to feel very unwelcome here and any link to other sites has been banned, removed and most likely it'll get you (or maybe even me) a tombstone.

We get a progressive candidate like Kucinich- a dem and even here on a Dem site, he is shouted down by...well, I leave that to the imagination of those who have a clue.

What really pisses me off is that all those who want to feel good are electing a corporate candidate (take your choice of any of the top 3) for all the rest of us who see those candidates for what they are...part of the problem and they will not solve or change anything that will make a real difference... but our choices have been removed.

Counting the votes means nothing if there is nothing to vote FOR in the first place. Just keep the progressive voices silenced, ridiculed and scattered. That'll take care of the "problem", right?


Not all progressives are complacent, but we are sure as hell all frustrated and pissed off. Maybe that's enough to just keep us going.

DR

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. Who needs assassination when you get people on a Democratic board to

bad-mouth the very politicians who are trying to bring up the issues that are killing this country?

Ridicule and marginalization are the 21st-century versions of the "magic bullet."

[Desertrose]

40. So true, Lydia. Many ways to silence someone, isn't there?

The more the truth attempts to be heard, the more they ratchet up the ridicule machines.


How sad is it that so many just cannot see through all the BS?

[ChiciB1]

81. It's Mind-Boggling & So Many People I Talk To Say The Very Same Thing!!

I just got a call from a friend in Chicago! He's headed down here to Florida tomorrow and told me he was SO FED UP with Clinton & Obama that he MADE sure he voted early so he could vote for Edwards!! Once big on Clinton, he asked me "Can you BELIEVE the S--t going on?" I told him I was ready to take "the leap" and find some place else to practice Democracy!

Hey, it's getting spread around, just doesn't seem to be happening here! He laughed, but we BOTH know it's a "hollow" laugh!

If I wasn't experiencing this first hand, I might think I was reading a "fiction" novel!!!

[NikolaC]

92. Horribly True

We don't even need the Pugs or M$M to do it for us, we have been doing it ourselves.

[Cardboardurinal]

110. um...

maybe it is just me...but when do the issues ever truly get brought up? I do not see any substantive debate on anything in this primary season. All I ever hear are goals, never anything about how they are going to get to those particular goals.

The entire primary season, I have been saying one thing: The Democratic Party and the progressive movement is in more danger of a faux-Democrat than a Republican. At least with the Republicans we have a semi-united front against them...with a faux-Democrat, the Democratic Party is forced to act against its own constituents, just look at the Bill Clinton's "accomplishments," the worst being setting the Democratic Party back 10 years.

This is why we snipe at our candidates...we need someone who actually respects our views and doesn't take us for granted, as pretty much every Democrat does. If we do not show our teeth, we are ignored all together.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

118. Well, yes, but I was talking about Democrats bad-mouthing

first Kucinich, and then Edwards, while H. Clinton and Obama seem to be most interested in sniping at each other instead of trying to solve the country's problems.

The only two candidates who were bringing up serious issues are dismissed as "not serious," while the "front runners," declared as such before a single vote had been cast, solely on the strength of their contributions from wealthy donors, spout vague platitudes and carp at each other as if they were running for eighth grade class president instead of president of the most powerful country in the world.

Maybe Americans, for all their gullibility and willingness to swallow whatever the mass media dish out, don't deserve to have their country fixed.

[defendandprotect]

129. As long as Democrats have no PLAN B -- no plan outside of . . .

the Democratic Party, then they can and will be betrayed ---

[blindpig]

22. Question #1

What is a progressive?

Mind you, I agree with your evaluation of the perilous state of affairs we find ourselves in, but what would you expect of a progressive in the White House? What would he/she be able to do?

[debbierlus]

34. Acknowledge Reality

A progressive above all would rule in the realm of reality. A courageous leader who realizes true HOPE stems from acknowledging TRUTH. Yes, we may be marching off a cliff as a nation, but that person SEES the cliff and thus is capable of leading in another direction.

I would expect a TRUE progressive to do the following:

Acknowledge that you can not provide equal access, high quality health care to all citizen without removing the PROFIT
factor. Not for profit single payer health care system. Period.

The center of the Presidency would have to focus on the EMERGENCY of global warming. Did you read Gore's update last week?
In five years the ENTIRE NORTH POLE could be melted in the summer. We are ten seconds to midnight only make that FIVE. All this
is pretty much nonsense, if all life is gone from the planet within the next hundred years.

Economically stimulate the economy by green energy research & implementation.

Go google Al Gore or read Dennis Kucinich's campaign platforms. You will get the idea.

[ChiciB1]

83. A Progressive Is The "Cute" Name Democrats Decided To Use Because

Ronnie Rayguns ran the word LIBERAL into the ground!! Being called a Liberal was akin to being a Russian Spy!

From there, it went down hill to becoming the DLC! And now, I have NO IDEA what Democrats are!!

I'm almost sure I'm not one anymore... but I will hang in until the GE, find some way to vote for Edwards and then LEAP onto a lilly pad and croak all by myself!

[defendandprotect]

132. That's crap--- I'm proud to be a liberal --- and a progressives --- but NOT DLC --- !!!

[defendandprotect]

130. A progressive certainly doesn't support the DLC or their candidates --- !!!!

[readmoreoften]

27. The first problem is that there is no party that recognizes the progressive community.

The second is that the progressive community is shut down by the pseudo-democratic system we've come to accept: a 'democracy' that means all opinions are equal; that all can compete in the 'marketplace of ideas.' Well, the 'marketplace of ideas' is like any other marketplace: it's controlled by powerful interests.

I'm coming to the belief that democracy is not just some bankrupt pluralism (where brute force and big money always win) but the conviction that all persons are created equal and the willingness to fight for such conditions. A democracy that allows total exploitation of working families for the benefit of the rich and the legalization of discrimination against people for who they love (and largely turns a blind eye to blacks and latinos and women even though such discrimination is illegal) is not a democracy in practice, but a democracy in fantasy only.

Unfortunately, we may need to assert ourselves beyond the spectacle of contrived and controlled elections if we're going to stop this machine.

[defendandprotect]

Right . .. so what might Progressives do about that on their own?

Are progressives suitably organized --- or have they been sitting here waiting for the DLC to
bow down to them?

[defendandprotect]

133. Right . .. so what might Progressives do about that on their own?

Are progressives suitably organized --- or have they been sitting here waiting for the DLC to
bow down to them?

[DaDooRonRon]

28. I wish I could recommend this

It is spot on.

The hypnotist says "just look closely at the sparkly 'D' that I hold in front of your face" and everybody falls for it. For the millionth time.
I am so glad that you (and others) GET IT. It is one party - it just calls itself Corporate Red or Corporate Blue depending on who wants what this time around. But hey, ranting on a message board and signing petitions and making fun of Bush will REALLY help, you know?

Now, should I vote for Clinton or Obama to get my "change" on.

They're not laughing with you, they're laughing at you.

Or are they crying?

[OzarkDem]

30. Thanks for pointing out the hypocrisy of some

Although I understand how it might be easy to get caught up with celebrity candidates.

Democracy is hard and sometimes we have to make the choices we know are right.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. Too many confuse politics and Party with ends, instead of means to an end. K&R

It's kind of like selecting which bus to take to L.A. One says it's going to N.Y. Another says it's going to L.A.

So, assuming you have your wits about you, you get on the one going to L.A. Alas, it drops you off in Dallas.

The point being that the goal is to get to L.A. not the means of conveyance. The point of politics and Party isn't to "support" politicians or be a "real" member of whatever party. It's to find a means to get where you want to go.

If it fails to do so, maybe it's time to look to other means.

[defendandprotect]

134. Well stated . . . but at DU there can only be one outlook . ..

a solution which involves the Democratic Party ---

The point being that the goal is to get to L.A. not the means of conveyance. The point of politics and Party isn't to "support" politicians or be a "real" member of whatever party. It's to find a means to get where you want to go.

If it fails to do so, maybe it's time to look to other means.

I agree with you, however, anyone here is being encouraged to see only one door out of this ---
a Democratic doorway .... no matter how many concessions or compromises with corporate-fascism
have to be made.

Is there no other path? Of course there is!!!

[balantz]

32. I'm totally with you.

The question I have is this:

How can it be, in this dire and crucial time, that we don't have a whole slew of competent LIBERAL PROGRESSIVE POPULIST candidates to choose from? And when we do have one (currently only one, Edwards) how is it that Americans cannot see that is what we need to take our country back? After seven long years, stolen elections, all of the horrors of this administration, and all of the major difficulties facing us, and Americans are STILL being fooled into choosing one corporate puppet over another?

I just don't understand the foolishness and ignorance that abounds in this "Barbie-Nintendo" world.

[debbierlus]

36. They have the American people drugged on television, sports, & petty bickering

A full blown depression will be the ICE water that wakes up the country. They won't have the luxury of a slow awakening, people are going to be shocked at something that was right there in plain view.

Heaven help us.

[tom_paine]

41. Now that is as close to a total encopssaning picture of reality that is briefly stated

They have the American people drugged on television, sports, & petty bickering.

Yep. Drugged and so far asleep that even in this fitful ngihtmare, all we can do is toss and turn confusedly, unable to even understand the scope and outline of the problem, let alone come up with solutions.

We as a People know nothing about history, and thus are doomed to repeat it. The Bushies, with no small assistance from the "pragmatic" wing of the Democratic Party, had repackaged and rebranded totalitarianism for their "target audience".

Maybe it's darkest before the dawn, but I think it's going to get a whole lot darker, and perhaps the dawn will not come sonn enough to be relevant in the lifetimes of anyone reading this post.

[defendandprotect]

136. As RFK, Jr. says . . . this country is the most entertained and the least well informed --- !!!

And that's no accident, folks -- !!!

And, I will add to those here involved with football and the rest of the sports nonsense which
takes up so much time here in America --- it's simply a distraction that ends up picking your
pockets and stealing your Constitution!!!

[mzmolly]

33. I support Edwards, but I am disgusted at the refusal to understand the qualities of all the

candidates we have in the running. I'll gladly for the nominee.

[defendandprotect]

137. I'm disgusted at the failure to understand a DLC/corporate candidate vs ...

a populist independent candidate like Edwards --- !!!

[cottonseed]

168. Hear hear! I agree, it's getting a little emotional n/t

[Individualist]

38. K&R

[PerpetuallyDazed]

42. What bothers me is all the rhetoric about bringing America "back together"...

Bi-partisanship. :puke:

I'm sorry, but I simply cannot reconcile with the Republicans and what has occurred over the last seven years!

I'm still pissed off and I'm not going to settle for gathering around the campfire and singing Kumbaya with the enemies of our country. Edwards is the only one engaging in the battle lingo.

[frog92969]

45. Agreed, enemies of the State.

Though the last year+ we've seen enough bipartisan shredding of the Constitution ("cooperative compromise").

[debbierlus]

46. Bipartisanship = Complicity & Compliance with CRIMINALS

I don't like Obama OR Clinton. However, Obama's rheoteric about pulling this nation 'together' drives me NUTS. You don't work with criminals, you put them in JAIL.

You are so right. It is insane & it is incredibly distressing Americans aren't in a pitchfork kinda mood.

[Yuugal]

188. You need this video

Whenever I get depressed about how incredibly sold out our party is to corporate interests, I get angry and feel the need for some escapism. I like to watch this video and imagine that there will be a tidal wave of a dem majority in January and the bi-partisanship shown on our side will look like this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vEr6bC7lO-o

Then reality comes back and I realize we are probably going to lose seats thanks to Pelosi and Reid and Hillary will have zero coattails, just like her husband had.

[quiet.american]

223. And the thing is, if any Republicans showed up, it would be to throw us into the fire, not to sing.

Then they would turn up on the house floor with crocodile tears to bemoan the lack of "bi-partisanship" because we had the audacity to "be troubled" about their scheme to throw us into the fire.

[frog92969]

44. K&R

No Comment.
:shrug:

[flor de jasmim]

47. K&R

Thanks.

[debbierlus]

48. Very pleased to see the positive response to this post

It seems many DU'ers know exactly what is going on.

[iris5426]

49. I'm still rallying around no one but Edwards...

a girl can hope :)

(the real kind, not the hey lets try to get along with the Repukes kind and I don't mean that as an Obama bash, I just didn't want it to be seen as gravitating towards Obama's message given the OP)


on edit:

Now that I've read the rest of the responses, I'm not only depressed, but relieved that there are others out there who feel the same way I do. How can there not be more people screaming at the top of their lungs about how wrong everything is? Global warming by far being the biggest issue that is still just an elephant in the room not being dealt with. Everything is going green cause that's the cool thing to do, but none of it is to the extent that we need to truly make a difference before that clock hits midnight. If we don't do something serious soon, like another response said, none of the crap we are all arguing about here will matter anyways. And none of the glazed over sheeple will have any idea what hit them. SO sad that if the media was truly out there to serve a real purpose it could spread the fear that is necessary to cause the action that is needed. Not that I really support the idea of spreading fear, but in this instance I think it might be warranted. Ugh. The hope I was talking about before editing has somewhat faded.

[madrchsod]

219. please vote for him if you can

maybe we can send a message that at least some of us believe in progressive democratic policies.

that is why i`m voting for dennis this tuesday..i know it "does`t count" but my statement does

[Steely_Dan]

51. I Completely Agree...

But this, we all knew. However you have stated it is a concise and profound way.

This is why I believe that Joe Biden would have been our best choice.

As far as I'm concerned Dennis Kucinich is the heart and soul of the progressive movement, such that it is. However, I am a firm believer that the pendulum must swing to the left and NOT magically appear on the left. Change takes time and requires unending determination. I truly felt that Biden represented not only our best chance at getting back the WH, I felt that he was the candidate that could begin to turn around this ship of state before it crashes into the rocks. He was no Kucinich, but he would have gone a long way towards getting that pendulum to swing.

I believe that Foreign Affairs is at least as important as are domestic issues. We live more and more in a global community and Biden would have served us well.

Lastly, one must begin to ask themselves why the most experienced and qualified candidates did not get past Iowa. Is is the media, the caucus system, the candidates themselves, or all of the above. I just find it amazing that people like Dodd, Biden and Richardson did not do better in the primaries when they were easily the most qualified candidates out there.

I've lost faith in this country, the media and the election process. I don't believe that I will return to the same view(s) I had before this election cycle began. I am completely and utterly discouraged.

-Paige

[FiveGoodMen]

53. "the pendulum must swing to the left"

I think the pendulum needs to be dismantled, chopped into tiny little pieces, set on fire, and buried in nuclear waste where no one will ever want to go dig it up.

The idea that we have to become virtual Nazis every decade or so because there's some law of nature that demands it is a bad one.

We have to insist on better behavior from our countrymen.

[Steely_Dan]

57. I Assume...

that you understand that the pendulum is referring to "change." Do you think that change happens instantly? Just like anything else, it takes time and determination to bring about change.
Not sure that I understand your post. Maybe I'm just confused.

-P

[FiveGoodMen]

60. What I mean is this

Every time the country has swung to the right since I've been alive, I've argued -- with anyone who would listen -- that we can't just keep giving up all our hard-won progress. People fought and died to create a nation that had the Bill of Rights as its heart and soul. Now we're letting a bunch of crazy-evil people shred it and most of the people I know (offline) don't even care.

Then you talk to someone who has slightly more sense, and they agree that things should be better, but ... "the pendulum swings back and forth" they say, so we just sit on our hands and let the wingnuts steal another decade, loot another treasury, start another war, outlaw another harmless activity because we know that's how it's supposed to work.

Fuck the pendulum. We should never be willing to take one step backward -- ever!

(I do realize that you were making a point about change taking time. I wasn't attacking that at all. The pendulum reference just triggered one of my personal favorite rants.)

[Steely_Dan]

61. Got It...

and I agree with you.

-P

[FiveGoodMen]

62. .

:toast:

[leftcoastie]

114. If you keep

turning right, you eventually arrive LEFT!

[FiveGoodMen]

246. Not really

[defendandprotect]

138. The people don't swing to the right --- look at Operation Gladio . . .!!!!

And I'd be fairly sure that they've been running an Operation Gladio in America, as well!!!

In fact, we've had the electronic computers installed for voting since the mid-1960's . .
after the coup on JFK -- that was an overt attack and from there it was a freewheeling
opportunity for them.

Liberals got a very slow start on this new fascist surge --- mainly because of Democrats who had been bought and Democrats who had been targeted --- and that served to keep anyone from standing up to the GOP fascists as they established themselves here.

No fight back on the assassination -- in fact the long list of political violence since the end of WWII.

Then you talk to someone who has slightly more sense, and they agree that things should be better, but ... "the pendulum swings back and forth" they say, so we just sit on our hands and let the wingnuts steal another decade, loot another treasury, start another war, outlaw another harmless activity because we know that's how it's supposed to work.

We're not going to have the time it takes to sit on our hands --
Global Warming will leave us all "Katrina'ed" ---

And, your paragraph above describes how far we are from what the founders could have ever imagined re atomic weapons, nuclear wars, false flag operations, two million Iraqis killed ---
it's hell on earth!!! We're all being tortured by this administration.

And, supposedly the people here are the ones who are most active politically --- !!! ???

Ye gads!!!

[Lifelong Protester]

242. I just wanted to say

that I, too, thought that Biden, Richardson, and Dodd, were dismissed MUCH too early, and anyone of the three have more experience and ideas to offer than the two 'front runners'.

And just for added measure, I'd like to say I'm getting pretty sick and tired of being left out of the 'democratic' process. If you live in a state like Wisconsin that did not get to take part in the 'me first, me first' primary bickering, your voice is not heard.

I am still voting for Edwards in our primary. I think my husband will vote for Richardson. It will get us no where but I am tired of going against my conscience to support the 'party'.

[mother earth]

52. I'm not defecting, I am supporting Edwards more now than ever.

You won't see me rallying around corporatist candidates, I am sickened by MSM and their soap opera dailies starring Obama & Clinton. This race was decided before it ever began, now it is little more than a game.

Votes mean nothing when the ELECTION PROCESS HAS NO INTEGRITY and MSM CHOOSES the winners and losers. When we awaken from our dream, perhaps we will be ready to effect real change, until then we deserve the pResident that MSM and their corporate owners decide upon.

We are witnessing the fall of our empire, welcome to the third world.

[MagsDem]

54. You nailed it!

I'm sickened by the Obama support, and pretty sickened by the Clinton support. In the case of Obama I am really disgusted because people are supporting a media creation, and nothing else. It's like the American Idol of politics. And the base is falling for it, right here before our eyes, hook, line and sinker.

I really, really used to think that Dems overall were so much smarter than rethugs. Now, not so much. It's pathetic to watch so many people here that are completely hoodwinked by our media, and suckered into nominating either of them. At least Hillary has some experience. Obama is an empty suit and nothing more, and possibly has the most gigantic ego of any politician I have ever seen.

The rethugs dig themselves into the biggest grave they have dug themselves in 20 years, and people want to nominate Obama? It's like our base is intent on us losing. And even if we did win, what will we win? An unqualified, empty suit with a a giant ego that doesn't have the guts to even have a vote recorded on the hard issues. He's going to fight for us? Har de har har har. Yeah, right.

[sloppyjoe25s]

101. Out of touch with the real world

It's a shame to see so many with good intentions and ideas out of touch with the real world.

As the son of a Socialist & close personal friend of Michael Harrington, who worked hand in hand for the poor in this country, I know what progressive means, and what liberal means - and Obama has it. He has lived it - and he is both.

It is a shame people here dont want to learn to actually win.

While you are all busy lamenting the end of Kucinich - you are missing the rise of a very important opportunity. Do you even care about speaking to real average people? Do you realize that people DO WANT TO BE INSPIRED? Or are you the elitist, patronizing nanny's that the republicans paint you out to be?

Obama a media creation? Sure he does well with the media, but to say he is nothing more is truly base. An "Empty Suit?" Look at his life. His education, the challenges he overcame. What he has actually done at a very young age. "Empty?" That is a gross thing for someone who claims to think to say. Perhaps he could have a few more years of seasoning, perhaps he still has more to learn about the world, or about the "bare knuckles" world of politics. Perhaps. But what have YOU ACTUALLY DONE? Anything even remotely close to what he has? YOU PERSONALLY? don't shirk it? How old are you? List your accomplishments and tell us what gives you the right to call Obama and "Empty Suit?" - why - because you are online in a forum?

What have YOU done to convince us of your judgement?

I am not yet Obama's age by 8 years, and I have accomplished a modest list of things in my life, but I am still dumbfounded by who and what Obama is at 46. I realize I'm not half the person he is. I willl do whatever I will do, but it wont be as much as he has by 46.

And to suggest Clinton is slightly better than Obama? Just recal Clinton's War vote. Looking ahead to how to get elected, voting to taking us into a disaster just to make herself "look more hawkish" so she would "run better in the general election" - Is that kind of "do anything to get elected" calculation the benefit of her 'years of experience'

Obama represent BY FAR our best hope, not false hope, but actual ability to get enough support to enact change. As someone on this thread said - progressives work on the street - exactly where Obama started. DEAD RIGHT on the Iraq war. Dead right on policy after policy. Obama has a brilliant mind.

Yeah - deride him because he is a great speaker - with the courage to use a word like "hope."

Deride him because Oprah Winfrey supports him - and you find that foolish or silly. You probably find her silly as well. I guess you've accomplished more than her too? I suppose she is "Empty" as well?

Deride him because you are totally out of touch with real people.

Real people live and breath the real "average" culture you see out there and deride. They don't analyze policy positions in details, the go onto myspace, go to work, live their lives. But guess what they get to vote. It is still the way it works. Even if you don't respect them. They call the shots.

Average people who use myspace, listen to hip hop, and barely watch the news.

Go out and take a look at America - the FarRight is well organized, well funded, well managed - and DEEPLY committed to understanding how to win. They understand the average american psyche better than the left, and they are shaping the vocabulary of the debate, and the narratives, and the whole playing field.

I am sad to see so many on the left on this thread - unable to get in touch with reality. Getting in touch with bare, average, reality is the only way to win, and the only way to enact change.

[CaptJasHook]

119. Wow, Excellent Rant

I would only add that ALL of the candidates are much more active and accomplished people than I will ever be. If you are looking at resumes.

Your point about average America is well taken. However, we can either bring average America down, let it be, or try and lift it up to new heights.

Sometimes I think progressive minded folks are content to be the ones who pick up everyone else's trash, to change their diapers and enable the average person's laziness. And then afterwards, after we have let them get a way with any shit, complain about it.

We are a political philosophy of den mothers and co-dependent fathers. Passive-aggresive busy bodies.

I agree with the above poster. We need to start demanding that our natural allies (ie. the working class and the middle class) get off their ass and pitch in.

On the Presidential level we need another "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" candidate. On a policy level, we need public, energy and green works minded members of the Congress and at State and Local levels.

Screw the war on Iraqis, we need a war on Apathy.

[defendandprotect]

141. What has Obama done?

Obama a media creation? Sure he does well with the media, but to say he is nothing more is truly base. An "Empty Suit?" Look at his life. His education, the challenges he overcame. What he has actually done at a very young age. "Empty?" That is a gross thing for someone who claims to think to say. Perhaps he could have a few more years of seasoning, perhaps he still has more to learn about the world, or about the "bare knuckles" world of politics. Perhaps. But what have YOU ACTUALLY DONE? Anything even remotely close to what he has? YOU PERSONALLY? don't shirk it? How old are you? List your accomplishments and tell us what gives you the right to call Obama and "Empty Suit?" - why - because you are online in a forum?

I don't see the accomplishments you seem to see ---
where are they?
In Congress? No . . .

As far as I can see he's totally naive ---

AND, deep in corporate pockets --- !!!

We are the voters and we understand who candidates take $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ from --- !!!!

Do you . . . ?

What Obama needs to learn, Edwards already knows ---
and many others would be more fit that Obama ---

[JuniperLea]

55. Hear hear!!! eom

[stillcool]

56. Has it ever been different?

It is delusional for me to think that any person could ever, or has ever risen to the level of Presidential Politics without murmuring the correct buzz words, and been backed by some heavy hitters. I don't pretend to know what any candidate would actually do once ensconced in the White House, but like playing the lottery, I pick a number and hope for the best. With each and every one of these candidates what you have is 'words'. So pick a string of words and place your bet.

[defendandprotect]

143. Do you understand that you are not being given real choices --- ??

That the corporate-media is feeding you your choice?

[stillcool]

150. I understand that I have 'never' been

given real choices. And it's not the corporate 'media' it's the 'corporate government'.

Lundberg, Ferdinand. The Rich and the Super Rich. New York: Lyle Stewart, 1968.

Shows with overwhelming evidence who rules and specifically how they rule. Although decades have passed since this book was written and the individuals have changed, the families in power haven't changed. This book allows someone with perceptiveness to look through the news, peek behind distractions of current events and see what probabably is really happening. OUT OF PRINT

available for free download at the following website
http://www.soilandhealth.org/03sov/0303critic/0303socialcriticism.html

[defendandprotect]

165. Yes . . . technically you're right . . . but I think people are watching

watching "corporate-media" and waiting for them to tell them what to do !!!

And, rightfully, a free press should be suggesting solutions to our problems ---
wish we had one!!!

I'm not familiar with the book you noted --- I'll look for it next time I'm in my library.

The elite recognized immediately we had a Constitution that democracy was a threat to them . .
but that they had time to defeat it. It's been a long battle!!!

I'd also point to "Operation Gladio" in Europe and Japan --- violence used to keep liberals out
of office.

And, IMO, brought here to America --
We've had decades of political violence in America unacknowleged by our "free press."

The myth of a free press died with the coup on JFK ---

The elite are well organized --- we aren't ---

[Ninga]

59. There lies the problem...the progressive community isn't. n/t

[TechBear_Seattle]

63. If we elect more Democrats, everything will automagically get better

:sarcasm:

[berni_mccoy]

64. The Progressives are a Minority in the Democratic Party.

[defendandprotect]

144. Progressives are not the minority in America -- unfortunately, they're not organized ....

and neither is that accidental --- !!!

Unions would be the logical way to organize Americans ---
but they've been under attack from the day they got started in America --
using MAFIA hit men -- and every other corrupt means to destroy unions.

Failing that, liberal organizations would be the next logical way to organize voters ---
but even the liberal organizations don't come together to fight this --- !!!

[Myrina]

65. Thank you

:patriot:

[earth mom]

66. The ridiculous Obama rock star crap is really the last straw. Put a fork in the U.S.-it's done.

But Thanks for the reality check, even though it will fall on deaf ears around this echo chamber previously know as DU.

:cry:

:argh:

[AGirl]

68. That's the way it goes.. same old crap..

[Beam Me Up]

69. Without verifiable elections, it is all a dog and pony show anyway.

I'm not going to be the least big surprised if we find an "R" in the WH this time next year. That is how bad it has gotten.

Which leads me to the conclusion that we're not going to "vote" our way out of this mess. I believe 9/11 was an inside job and if this is correct -- and I don't see how anyone who has grasped the significance of the evidence can deny it -- then we haven't been in 'politics as usual' mode for two consecutive terms. The fascists have gotten away with treason, mass murder and war crimes in broad daylight -- and very few within the political left has attempted to hold them accountable.

Progressive? Give me a break.

[Desertrose]

91. Yes! That's the truth....

"very few within the political left has attempted to hold them accountable.
"

Too few!

[defendandprotect]

145. It's much longer a road than you're imagining . . .

but I agree with your conclusion about 2008 ---

First, the electronic computers came in during the mid-1960's . . .
so every election since then is in some question.

And, I can tell you that nothing has been right since the JFK coup --

America really hasn't come to fully understand "Operation Gladio" what it was doing post WW-II
not only in Europe, in Japan, of course ---

and more than likely in America, as well ---

intended to keep liberals out of office

That show was brought home to America --- as soon as they learned what they needed to know about "shock and awe" and how populations reacted to their false flag operations.

I also agree with you about 9/11 --- and while DU is blocking people here from the opportunity
to have to face the facts of it, very few of them who even learn something about it are curious
enough to go further. It's amazing!!!

It doesn't seem real to me because there are so many intelligent people able to understand all of this --

Who in the heck makes up the DU?

[KatyaR]

71. It's not just the country that's broken, it's the citizens, too.

I can't believe the things I hear coming out of people's mouths anymore--that the government has no responsibility for us, that we have no responsibility to manage the country's infrastructure, that people don't deserve a living wage or healthcare, that if you fall on bad times, it's all your fault and you don't deserve help, it's okay to torture prisoners and hold them without charges or trial, if you care the least little bit about anyone or anything, you're a commie bleeding heart liberal, blah, blah, blah.

There's a story in the local newspaper today about a situation with a factory in Tulsa back in 2002 where a factory owner was basically holding 53 men from India as slaves, paying them $2 a day under forceable detainment, taking away their passports and threatening them if they ever spoke out. These men were tricked into coming to the US with the promise of high-paying jobs. Some dumbshit left a comment that he didn't understand the problem if they were being paid $2 a day and getting room and board. These people were SLAVES and this is how someone reacts? Unbelieveable.

We have allowed these bastards to turn us against each other, and I'm not sure we will EVER be able to recover.

[FiveGoodMen]

77. Hate radio and the megachurches have destroyed what was best in our culture

[KatyaR]

80. I totally agree, especially on the megachurches.

I don't know one person who attends one of those things that can think for themselves. I call them "the plastic people."

[defendandprotect]

147. Right-wing propaganda certainly works--!! And the GOP are just as successful

masters of it as the Hitler/Nazis were ---

In fact, in Nixon's White House, they were studying Nazi propaganda films ---

[mdmc]

72. We are strong enough to win the white house in 2008. But we are very weak.

Super cool guy Arlo Guthrie, son of Woody Guthrie, has apparently endorsed the Right, Honorable Dr. Ron Paul -
http://www.ad-hoc-news.de/CorporateNews/15227752/Ticker
Sad state of affairs for our the party, imho.

[greenman3610]

73. right. And there's not a dime's worth of difference between George Bush and Al Gore

remember that one?

[FiveGoodMen]

78. Gore sure would have been better than Bush!!!

But if anything had happened to him while in office, we'd have President Lieberman -- because that's who Gore chose to run with! I'm not sure that would have been much better.

The front-runners now seem to echo Bush's talking points whenever they can and they both speak admiringly of Reagan.

That's not enough difference.

[defendandprotect]

148. Remember Liebermann . . . ??? Quite a Trojan Horse --- !!!

[donheld]

167. Lieberman's not really a Trojan Horse. more like a

Trojan Jack-ass.

[defendandprotect]

172. You don't think getting him into the VP spot with a Democratic president ...

would have given the Repugs an even wider berth in the Democratic Party?

And, needless to say, even more control over the Democratic Party than they already have?

[scarletwoman]

74. I've been saying it for awhile -- quietly & carefully, of course, lest I get booted -- there is NO

salvation to be found in electoral politics.

Seriously. What progressives REALLY need to do is to stop putting all their eggs (so to speak) into electoral politics.

The Ruling Class OWNS electoral politics. The chances for progressives to achieve anything through electoral politics is infitesimally small. Not that we shouldn't keep plugging away it at the local level -- far from it.

But as far as the level of NATIONAL politics -- it's a rigged game, and we are not going to make ANY headway by confronting it head-on. They have all the heavy weaponry, they have almost all of the money.

Our only hope of changing the political realm in this country is by building up progressive programs and institutions outside of electoral politics.

MLK didn't run for office, he worked on the streets. That's what progressives have to do: work on the streets.

Not saying don't vote, but stop looking to voting as the end-all be-all of expressing our values. Voting is the LEAST effective way to promote the progressive message.

We need to be working down on the ground, changing people's consciousness. Until the consciousness of the People is changed, voting won't do shit.

sw

[bagrman]

87. If we were French we could strike, but we ain't and we hate the French, why do we hate the French?

[defendandprotect]

166. One reason is they don't like war --- they like love making --- phooey!!!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

208. The French still have real communities

They don't live 25 miles outside the city and spend two hours a day in their cars. They also have a culture that values thinking and reading.

Actually, the same seems to be true of all of Europe. While the UK has its tabloid newspapers that make The National Enquirer look like a doctoral dissertation, I was really impressed by the quality of writing and depth and range of coverage in The Guardian, The Independent, and even The Times, as well as the quality of writing and thought in the LTTEs.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

90. Politics is highly overrated as a force for change.

Particularly, party politics.

[scarletwoman]

95. Political consciousness is absolutely essential. ELECTORAL politics is the problem.

ELECTORAL politics is "highly overrated as a force for change." My point is, there is ALOT more to "politics" than electoral politics -- which, of course, presumes party politics.

For me, "politics" is the intersection between the individual and the collective. Political consciousness is absolutely essential to effecting change -- and it is absolutely essential to understand that politics is about much more than elections.

Elections are useless without political consciousness. And elections do very little to raise political consciousness -- in fact, they outright inhibit it.

sw

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

99. I couldn't agree more. Electoral politics often serves as a substitute for action.

Or, as an evasion of responsibility. "I voted", is a lousy way of pretending to have done something that actually has an effect on peoples lives or changing anything.

[scarletwoman]

255. Thank you so much for understanding what I was trying to say!

I don't know how I missed your post 2 nights ago, I'm hoping this is better late than never.

"I voted", is a lousy way of pretending to have done something that actually has an effect on peoples lives or changing anything.

EXACTLY!

Thanks again,
sw

[eridani]

94. Well, people on the left have been recommending ignoring electoral politcs since the early 70s

Say, how's that been working our for us? :sarcasm:

[scarletwoman]

103. You're missing my point. I'm saying that unless you build a progressive infrastructure, electoral

politics is not going to give you any power to effect structural change.

I've voted Dem in every damn election since 1972. Can't say as how it's worked out all that well, so far, can you?

[eridani]

105. You're certainly right about the lack of infrastructure

The 50 state strategy is helping with that, but we have a lot of lost time to make up for.

[varelse]

96. Until the consciousness of the People is changed, voting won't do shit.

Damn straight.

But how to convince them to turn off their TV's and listen to their "loony-left bleeding heart liberal" peers instead? Face it, we're a joke to the average American and a bogeyman to those on the far right.

Not many are born with MLK's natural charisma, talent, intelligence and drive. I sure don't have it.

What to do?

Oh, yeah and I recommended the OP - this is the "kick" ;)

[defendandprotect]

149. You're absolutely correct . .. but we don't have time . . .

additionally, our local politics are already taken over ---
We have corporate-local governments, as well!!!

And though I agree with your "on the street" idea --- I can assure you that the Democratic Party isn't going to support that!!! No street educations. That was killed long ago!!!

Liberals are the majority --- they have to be organized into larger and larger groups ---
quickly. Unions would have been the preferred, logical way. That's blocked.

And, one of the most mind-boggling things to me is that liberal organizations don't come together!!!!
Never have!! Though feminist leaders dreamed of coming together with labor unions!!!

Global Warming, of course, has put a time limit on us ---

we don't have much of it left!!!

[Twist_U_Up]

239. Not with HR 1955

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wJsovPRTEM

[Lifelong Protester]

243. I agree, nothing is left to us BUT the streets

those of us oldsters who lived through the '60s and 70s know that. If Edwards gets out of the race for president, perhaps he can be an organizer in the classic model of MLK. WE NEED TO TAKE IT TO THE STREETS, people (sorry, I hate typing all in caps but I am passionate about this). ONLY if we take it to the streets, a la francais, will the government HAVE to listen.

[ErnestoG]

75. Sometimes you have to figure out your play with what you are handed.

Do I think we have the ultimate Progessive candidate among the Dem line-up left? Hell no. None of them. But what do you think the chances are that one will come out of nowhere and take the convention to be the nominee? I'm sure you have heard the one about a snowball and hell.

So what do you do? All you can do is pick the one that is closest to your views out of those who have a shot at this thing. That's all. Complaining and weeping and wailing about the way things should have been won't keep the GOP out of the White House. DENYING them the White House by our votes, will.

[L0oniX]

76. I am voting for a woman...uh no I am voting for a black...uh no I am voting for whoever looks good

...uh no I am voting for whoever makes the best speeches...uh no ...I fucking give up!

[7horses]

79. Agreed...

we are about to blow the chance we have been given to make changes in the country.

Go John go!

[bagrman]

82. If the MSM wants the Clintons or Obama, we should definatly be voting for someone else.

[dchill]

84. Jesus tap dancing Christ.

Indeed. K & R

[Tulkas]

86. NO LOBBYIST MONEY IS CHANGE!! HE HAS ALREADY CHANGED THINGS !!!

WTF is the matter with you ???/


Has any other candidate in modern history gotten this far without taking money from Lobbyists?? NO!!!!



He has already created a blueprint on how to fight the corporate influence in government, now he needs support to win this fight. Not your ignorant slander!!!

[defendandprotect]

151. Dean, of course, also changed things --- what can we do to help Edwards now --- ????

[NikolaC]

89. Well Said

This has been my frustration for a long time. I can no longer understand the logic behind voting for what is safe over our best interests. So many do it because they feel that there is no choice. The sad reality is that there were choices, but those choices were winnowed down due to external influences and opinions and many bought into it. Sad.

[Beregond2]

93. Disappointed...

I understand your anger. It is the same feeling of impotent rage I felt after McGovern lost. And it kept me out of politics for many years thereafter, because I thought: "What's the point?" And what did that apathy get us? Reagan and the neocons.

Politics is the art of the possible. There has never been, and will never be, a candidate who perfectly embodies every quality one could wish for. And like it or not, anger is not somethng that the majority of Democrats respond to. In the face of all these years of right-wing rage and bile, it is very tempting to want to respond with our own fury. Don't I know it. But Obama is right about this. The right isn't going away, and if we were to put up a candidate they intuitively hate, who threw down the gauntlet, that would be the one thing that would guarantee four more years of Repug rule; and that would be the end of us.

I don't like the idea of voting for a corporate-funded candidate either, but look what happens when a candidate refuses that money: you get 15% of the votes, if you are lucky. It is a big leap to assume that because a candidate has taken that money, he or she will therefore be beholden to those donors. At any rate, until the system is fixed they have little choice, and the system won't be fixed until Democrats are back in power.

When you get to my age, you realize that the changes that last happen in small increments. What you are crying out for is revolution, and yes, that is enormously appealing. Throw the bums out! Re-write the laws! Change, now! But if you look at history, revolutions rarely succeed, and when they do, the results are disastrous.

The only way change is going to come to this country is if we have a leader who inspires, not threatens; who holds out his hand, rather than shaking his fist. It has taken me some time to reach that conclusion myself. There is so very, very much to be outraged about. And I'm not saying those responsible shouldn't be held accountable. But above all, people need a beacon of hope. I think Obama is the one candidate who understands that, and has the personality to BE that.

I also sincerely hope he takes Edwards along for the ride, because, as I've said before, when being conciliatory doesn't work (and if often won't) he'll need an attack dog!

My reasons, as I hope you see, are thought-out, and backed by a lifetime of experience. I would appreciate not having them written-off as selling-out, or being credulous.

[Disincorporate]

104. A truly brilliant opening post, Debbie...

and if you _really_ want the Great Compromiser to take Edwards "along for the ride," Beregond, you've got to support JRE in the primaries, period. Without Edwards delegates, there'll be no impact on the party platform, no cabinet offers, no future media attention, zip, nothing, nada.

But I got news for you: Obama wants absolutely no part of him. Way too risky. After all, didn't Obama dismiss our exemplary Paul Wellstone as a mere "gadfly"? It's the naive branch of the American progressive community that he's taking along for the ride, I'm afraid.

Debbie, and all here, I share your deep, deep grief.

"SOONER OR LATER THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE GOING TO WAKE UP" (Emma Goldman, 1919).

Would that I had Emma's faith in us....

[greyghost]

146. They'll wake up when their homes...

are foreclosed on and their jobs sent overseas. Their car has been repossessed or they don't have the money to fill their tanks.

That day is coming quicker then I thought. A lot can happen in the next few months and none of it good for TPTB.

That's why I'm happy that Edwards isn't giving up.

[Vattel]

192. the gadfly

remark was a compliment

[CaptJasHook]

102. IMHO We are letting fear run us again.

In general philosophical terms, what we are experiencing is the angst driven by having to make a decision. I must admit that I buy into the stereo-type that progressives are generally more educated than the average voter. Therefore, when confronted with a serious of choices, it is easy to over-intellectualize and become panicked.

So let's take a breath here, step back and see what we have. I know there is a part of your brain that will be cynical, questioning, angry, depressed etc. But let's look at some of the positives for a minute.

•We have control of the House of Representatives, with the first female Speaker.

•Though the Senate is not truly in our control, the Republicans are blocked there.

•The Republican candidates for President are all truly flawed and vulnerable.

•The current POTUS has the lowest consistent approval rating of any president in the recorded history of the United States (though I think Polk would have been close).

•Americans, as a whole are ready for change. Neo-con policies are finally getting their well-deserved backlash.

•We had some amazing candidates for President. Biden, Kucinich, Dodd. We currently have three candidates for whom all of us have passion for, a smorgasbord of Presidential choices.


This is our election to loose.... If we don't stick together.

Remember Lincoln? A house divided amongst itself cannot stand? That is us.

Remember Tsun Tsu? The surest way to defeat an enemy is to divide it. That is what the Republicans and their MSM allies are counting on.

I agreed with one commentator on one of the threads that we wished Mr. Rodgers was running for office. Well, maybe not running, but I wish he was moderating some of these boards....

Be nice to one another. Peace

[defendandprotect]

153. Overall I agree with you . . . EXCEPT . . . .

2004 was a bigger steal than 2000, though because of the Supremes 2000 was noisier . . . !!!

The electronic computers were brought in during the mid-1960's . . .
so a lot of stealing has been going on --- and I'm sure that we have all felt it/
questioned it????

Having "control" of the USHR, with a "FEMALE" leader who is willing to do nothing is
meaningless. Remember, there is still current film of Pelosi immediately after the win
repeating what the mandate was --- most positively as an "anti-war" message!!!
What happened?

Since we have more than 40 "blue dog" Democrats --- and more being solicited with party money by the DLC --- we have a Democratic party which is almost 50% co-opted by Republicans.
Yes -- the blue dogs meet with Bush and the GOP to decide on issues and votes!!!

Yes -- McCain is a short, old guy --
but has "patrioticsm" worked before ---
"bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" . . . ???

And so far the best Democratic candidates have been eliminated ---
probably with Edwards set next for elimination!!!
When you get down to Hillary and Obama you don't have much --
but plenty of vulnerabilities for GOP attacks.

Let's also remember that the dividers have control of our choices ---
you can't really blame us for objecting to that, can you . . . ???

And -- "Mr. Rodgers" is dead ---!!!

[CaptJasHook]

202. I think you forgot to breathe

I am most certainly aware that Fred is dead, as well as the information in the rest of your post.

Taking all of that into account, I still say that it is all a numbers game and that if we stick together, toughen up and still head to the polls, our numbers will be bigger than theirs.

We still may not get the president we want, but we will start a groundswell movement that will correct the system.

Voter fraud can only make a difference in a tight race. Though it seems to be on the rise, there are failsafes in the system.

And then there is the final failsafe... my musket. Or for some of you, your passport. Because it is going to get hot around here.

[DaveJ]

106. I actually respect the "rhetoric of hope"...

We've lost a lot of our sense of trust over the past several years. Calm down. It's not that bad. Or, at least, it's not like that.....

We tend to personify our enemy. But our enemy is not an individual or a group of people. We can always count on our fellow humans being a bit selfish. That is something we can always trust.

The enemy is a system. And I believe that even Republicans consider the system to be their enemy. Their 'Cartman' method of fighting the enemy is hardly effective, and in the end, their party needs to completely go away. But I'm not someone who thinks that the DLC Democrats are somehow involved in a conspiracy to destroy our personal freedoms.

When I think of the word 'hope' I think of Chicago's Cook County Hospital where everyone with absolutely no insurance goes for comprehensive care. I have no idea how it works. And maybe someone will correct me. But it is the assumed destination for lower income individuals. There is a pharmacy that people line up for in the early morning, with nobody planning on giving a cent of money but nevertheless get what they need. It's not a perfect place, but it has undergone great renovations recently and people have 'hope' that these improvements will continue and that one day they can feel less insecure about not being able to afford health insurance.

So, it's one thing to complain that our party is somehow compliant with the Republican menace. It's another thing to say that Democrats are the same thing as Republicans. If we can prevent Republicans from being elected, reduce them to the equivalent of the Whig party, we will be better off for it.

[CaptJasHook]

115. Here, Here!

:toast:

[Warren Stupidity]

107. I wish you weren't right.

But you simply are. It is discouraging. Once in my lifetime an actual progressive Democrat ran for president as our nominee. Once. As things are I don't expect to see that again.

[EndElectoral]

108. Unfortunately, a very good post....Kick

People have become apathetic, and it appears deep down desire a monarchal line.

[lonestarnot]

109. I've been telling you it's over for weeks.

[defendandprotect]

154. It's over . . . unless progressives are willing to go elsewhere . . . ???

[defendandprotect]

155. It's over ... unless liberals are willing to try a different approach ---

Liberals can selectively move to third parties . . .

If there is a large enough vote in every blue state for third party candidates ---
the Democratic party would have to pay attention.

It would be a beginning ---

[Pacifist Patriot]

111. Another depressed K & R

[leftcoastie]

112. How True

But on Super (Duper, Tsunami) Tuesday I will be voting for John Edwards, proudly. My vote is mine and I won't the MSM take that away (hell, thank goodness I don't have to worry about Diebold machines). THIS IS a historic race, having both a viable woman and black man heading the pack. It would make it NEARLY impossible for any other candidate to shine through the MSM shinola, Al Gore or Jesus Christ himself would have a hard time getting through the din.

So let's not get really disappointed. If we BEAT the republicans with ANY candidate, that's HALF the BATTLE. The other half is up to US. That means any Democratic administration will NEED OUR INPUT....whether they like it not.

I'm too many decades along to give up in February. Admitting defeat now means we stand for nothing.

Fight on, comrades.

[Maat]

113. K&R!

I may wind up voting for the lesser of the evils; HOWEVER, I'm planning to continue working for healthcare for all and peace (attending my weekly vigils, and holding the politicians' feet to the fire any way that I can).

I'm also "a depressed K&R."

[flyarm]

116. i was saying the same today..WHERE THE FUCK ARE THE SO CALLED PROGRESSIVES..they are bullshit

artists!

nothing but con artists and sheeple..

no different than the sheeple who followed little lord pissy pants to the fires of war and oceans of debt.

My hubby and i spoke yesterday after i returned from South Carolina and volunteering for Edwards..i told him of the poverty i saw..some stuff i had never seen in my life and those who were the poorest of the poor who are supporting huckabee because their church told them to..i mean poverty that blew my mind..

and total ignorance of what is being done to them..in the name of church and democracy..ha what a joke..

and then i come on here and i see equal ignorance of what is being done to people here and people are laping up the kool aide!

My hubby and i will be looking into selling off our property in hopefully a year or so and getting the hell out of this country..i will not live in a fascist state..no thank you.

when people continue to vote against themselves..i can't do a damn thing about it..but get the hell out.

what part of what has happened in the past 8 years do DU'ers not get?

it has been force fed to you on a daily basis and yet you fall for this shit..why?

i give up..my hubby and i have spent a fortune trying to save you..and our time and blood sweat and tears..

i saw my co-workers killed..i saw the smoke and the fire..i saw the corrupt government that you will continue to vote for..

not me ..no thanks..and i am done trying to save your ass!

fly

[defendandprotect]

158. I'm with you . . . I haven't tried quite on the level that you have . . .

but I have tried over the past 20 years --

however, the r-w propaganda has certainly been effective ---

and people do very little thinking on their own ---

and very little consciousness raising on their own ---

IMAGINE . . . !!! anyone supporting torture --- ???

Two million Iraqis dead -- !!!!

Destruction of our Constitution and yet we see only milquetoast responses --- if any by
Democrats --- and that includes most of DU!!!

This time around, things are going to fall apart much more quickly than they did in the Great Depression --- we all have the chance of being "Katrina'ed" ---

and Global Warming is closing in on us ---

another product of the capitalist/corporatist suicidal instinct --- !!!

[TroubleMan]

117. I casted my vote for Kucinich today.

K & R

[caseycoon]

193. Good for you, Troubleman!

Your post put tears in my eyes.
:toast:

[autorank]

135. Hot damn! Finally: "You are supporting candidates who won't even TALK about the real issues"

There are some very real issues on my sig line. I'm waiting for anyone in public office to address these atrocities. Those who cooked up the Iraq War are guilty of the acts that began the losses listed below and the 120 suicides a week of those who served in Iraq. Those who voted for funding under the lame excuse that we can't abandon the troops are guilty of the deaths and suffering that followed. They knew what was happening. There's no way funding this war helped our troops. Bringing them home would help them.

But nobody wants to talk about this just like they don't want to talk about the 2-3 years we have to begin an earnest effort to save the human species form massive or total losses.

What is their major malfunction?

You've got it right, keep swinging.

[defendandprotect]

159. Great post . . . and anyone who still believes in war should not be in office ---

Also agree that Global Warming gives us very little time ---

I think we've won the spiritual/moral arguments if that's any comfort to us -- it is to me!

Further, here we are at DU and we have blocked topics --- !!!

IMO, 9/11 was the work of the group working for world domination ---
and I don't mean Bin Laden ---

[autorank]

181. been Fakin'

What's with that fake tape and why did BBC report that the lab in Switzerland was told to knock it off
on further analysis?

I want someone to take a serious look, some group that's pure gold label technoid, at the October 2004
tape. That's the mind blower. Maybe it's real, maybe it's not but let's take a look. Lets find
out within a 95% degree of certainty. If it's 95% likely fake, then the whole ball of wax comes
unraveled.

Just a few questions answered would blow the charade completely out of the water.

As for the primaries - all of them - discuss the issues please, you ninnies.

:)

[paulk]

139. progressive community? what's that?

Is that something you get to define?

Near as I can tell, after six years on this board, is that damn near every self described "progressive" is a party of one.

[defendandprotect]

161. I guess liberals thought that they were supporting a LIBERAL Democratic Party?

However, over and again, I see that's not true ---
and hasn't been true for decades ---

The DLC is the Republican party in the Democratic Party ---
and with 40+ blue dogs that's a lot!!!

Basically, the Democratic Party is now more involved with working for corproate-fascism than for
any liberal ideals -- nor the Constitution!!

[Fresh_Start]

140. we're letting ourselves be satisfied with the illusion of change

rather than demanding real change.

We have a casting change in the wings.
We do not have a change of substance in the wings

[Seabiscuit]

142. Good points except about Kucinich. We progressives did NOT ignore & dismiss him.

The corporate media did.

I contributed repeatedly to his campaign because I wanted to hear his voice in the debates even though I always knew he was unelectable.

[defendandprotect]

162. Absolutely; same here! Kucinich's voice and ideals were important to the overall ---

[wiggs]

152. Yes. But don't limit your disappointment to the progressive community...your

spot-on post should be meaningful to everyone except CEO's, childless billionaires, and blackwater mercenaries. And even they, one day, will see the consequences of shortsighted political and financial greed that dominates decisions.

It is very, very frustrating that most of our leaders won't carry the banner for sanity and for the future. Please repost your OP whenever it drops off first page....

[leftofthedial]

156. this country is SO over

and so is the progressive movement that never got off the ground



The rabid, laissez faire capitalists bought democracy, lock stock and barrel

[cottonseed]

169. Over is a little over the top...

I think you could make an argument that this country is over when Bush was handed the presidency. Edwards, Clinton, and Obama in a race to a probable presidency isn't so bad.

[Skittles]

180. no

the country was in fine shape when bush was handed his prize.....he has since made America unrecognizable

[lisainmilo]

157. I know!

:eyes: but I am still holding on to hope.

[ChiciB1]

226. I LOST HOPE A Long Time Ago... Haven't Used The Word In So Long

and thought perhaps I might be able to with John Edwards. Now, I can't even put into words what I feel. Can't say it's numb, but a bit RAW perhaps.

I know what I see and what I feel. I know what too many in D.C. feel about the CITIZENS of this country, and FAR FAR too many don't give a FLYING SHIT!!

I try NEVER to use the word HATE, but my body is so FULL OF IT NOW! I'm crying so hard now it's hard to see if I'm hitting the right keys. This is one time my experience as a typesetter should come in handy!

I feel so much like I did when Bobby Kennedy got shot, and so MANY people don't EVEN understand what a LOSS this is! Two of my family members have called me in the last 30 minutes and I couldn't even talk to them. I'm so HURT! Time will heal the loss, I have had to deal with some horrible losses in MY family already, but this is DIFFERENT! This country needs much more than what is being shoved down our gullets!

I can't even imagine what John Edwards and his family must be thinking, but if ANY of them check in here sometime, I want them to know just how MUCH I believed in HIM and THEM!!

What a SAD, SAD day!

[Connonym]

160. I refuse to defect. I'm in this with Edwards until he bows out

I'm going to vote for whomever the Democratic Party runs on the ticket this fall and I'll even volunteer to work to support that candidate, regardless of which it is, because I firmly believe that even a middle of the road Dem is better than any Republican. But I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Edwards -- this isn't over yet. My state still has its primary on Super Tuesday and I'm going to cast my vote for Edwards.

Fuck the MSM. Vote with your heart. Support your candidate by getting the word out. Don't let the MSM win in pre-deciding who our candidate is.

[tomp]

163. clue phone for debbierlus....

...they're not progressives!!!!!!!!

they just play progressives on du. du (the sizeable majority) is MUCH more center (read:conservative) than they will ever admit. it's hopeless. if the majority on du don't get it, who will? when we lost kucinich we lost it all and du doesn't know it yet. you want proof? the fact that it is even within the realm of possibility that a republican could win in november shows just how bad the democrats are.

[caseycoon]

194. You're right about Kucinich.. Same when we lost Howard Dean. n/t

[BobTheSubgenius]

164. Too right.

I don't even live in the US, and I'm depressed about the whole mess.

[Skittles]

170. the MSM picked the candidates and look how many DUers fell for it

it is beyond pathetic

[tom_paine]

178. On this, we agree completely, Skittles.

Like lambs to the slaughter.

Sheep by Pink Floyd

Harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away;
Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air.
You better watch out,
There may be dogs about
Ive looked over jordan, and I have seen
Things are not what they seem.

What do you get for pretending the dangers not real.
Meek and obedient you follow the leader
Down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.
What a surprise!
A look of terminal shock in your eyes.
Now things are really what they seem.
No, this is no bad dream.

The lord is my shepherd, I shall not want
He makes me down to lie
Through pastures green he leadeth me the silent waters by.
With bright knives he releaseth my soul.
He maketh me to hang on hooks in high places.
He converteth me to lamb cutlets,
For lo, he hath great power, and great hunger.
When cometh the day we lowly ones,
Through quiet reflection, and great dedication
Master the art of judo,
Lo, we shall rise up,
And then well make the buggers eyes water.

Bleating and babbling I fell on his neck with a scream.
Wave upon wave of demented avengers
March cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.

Have you heard the news?
The dogs are dead!
You better stay home
And do as youre told.
Get out of the road if you want to grow old.

[Skittles]

179. I can't take it I tell you Tom

DUers like to think they're better informed than the general public and to see them just going along with the MSM tactics - some even thought it was OK to exclude Kucinich from the debates - it shocked me

[tom_paine]

185. The Bushification of our nation has been going on so long and with so little opposition

that it is part of the environment now, it surrounds and suffuses us, like the air we breathe.

The "MSM way of thinking" is also, really they are one and the same thing. I'd be lying if I said I was immune to it, either. NO ONE is fully immune, even if we defend against it consciously every minute of every day.

The reason, I believe, is because all good advertising, marketing and PR works on the subconscious level, beyond people's ability to consciously defend against it.

Of course, we cannot forget that the reason the Bushification of our minds was allowed to happen is that because for two decades, the people who should have noticed and could have fought against it, were either clueless or complicit. It doesn't matter anymore which, all that matters is what is, at this late date.

Like a microcosm of the rest of Imperial Amerika, tragically, DUers are made even more susceptible to it all by our deep and abiding conviction that it couldn't happen to us.

Like a microcosm of the rest of Imperial Amerika, such smugness only insured that we would deny it when it DID happen to us.

Nothing shocks me anymore, skittles. Nothing. State-sanction torture, murder, our national mentality has been radically restructured by a multi-billion dollar and multi-decade plan by the Bushies.

It is most obvious when we look at something from the past days of Old, Free America. In this particular case, I was watching an old Star Trek episode in which Kirk was arguing forcefully that torture isn't the way free, decent people extract information.

Can you imagine somebody writing a show like that now? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

It also occurred to me, while watching one of shows about the "evil alternate universe" Star Trek (every variant of the show has done this at least once...the whole "evil Spock with a beard" bit) that the universe of conquest and lies and torture was MUCH closer to our ideals now than the actual Star Trek universe.

We are all "evil Spock with a beard" now.

[Skittles]

186. wow.....awesome

FINE observations. I've often wondered why I am so immune to all of that stuff but when I look at my entire life as a whole I have NEVER done what society or the MSM deems right for me - I decide for myself.

On a side note I have to say that right now as far as McCain goes - at least the warmongering bastard does not support torture - no indeed (only, of course, because it happened to him).

[ErnestoG]

173. Progressives are very good at observing problems...not so good at creating solutions

And I say that as one of them.

[jgraz]

174. Sorry, but that's crap

Maybe you haven't noticed, but most of the "solutions" in this society came about because of progressives. Conservatives didn't get women the vote, moderates didn't end slavery. Centrists didn't get us out of Vietnam or end child labor or create the minimal welfare state we have today.

Those were progressive ideas implemented by progressives -- often by ramming it down the throats of the cowardly middle-of-the-roaders.

This country didn't get fucked up by half-measures. Reagan, Bush 41 and Chimpy were radicals. The only way we're gonna un-fuck it is to start demanding some equally radical change in the opposite direction. I don't see that coming from our so-called frontrunners.

[ErnestoG]

177. Naw, it's true. We like round table discussions and passing resolutions

but when it comes to getting off the ass, thats another matter.

I realize you have a different view, but that one's mine. It's ok to disagree.

[jgraz]

182. We can agree to disagree about opinions. It's a bit more difficult to do that about actual facts

Do yourself a favor and read up on the labor and civil rights movements. You may be surprised at what progressives used to do before Democratic Underground was invented.

[ToeBot]

184. Complete twaddle! nt

[madrchsod]

221. you mean none of dennis`s or john`s idea`s

had no workable solutions? i thought dennis`s healthcare plan was brillant and very practical in it`s funding.

[Jed Dilligan]

175. Before we get it together,

I'm afraid Mother Nature will cast the Vote that Counts.

[Norwood]

176. You're absolutely correct. Its depressing and I dont see it changing anytime soon

Whenever I see the primary numbers with Edwards constantly only getting 10-20 percent of the vote I get a sick feeling in my stomach. Its really sad, the majority of Americans will vote for whoever the media tells them to.

It all really sank in after the SC debate. Clinton and Obama acted like a couple of children and Edwards was the only one that sounded like he knew what he was talking about. The result, Edwards finishes a distant third.

I don't care I'm sticking with Edwards till the bitter end.

[ToeBot]

183. Don't blame the liberals because the Democrats sold out,

blame the liberals for not dumping their sorry asses.

[Triana]

187. Damn right. It's about symbolic versus REAL substantial change...

...the corprats have CHOSEN the top two candidates FOR us (rather, for themselves) by shutting out all others.

THAT ALONE ought to be reason enough to support the ones they SHUT OUT. Because that was NO accident. It was intentional. You'd think people would be asking themselves WHY.

Are American voters going to shoot themselves in the foot AGAIN?

Looks like it.

Pfffft!

[SmellsLikeDeanSpirit]

189. So true, so depressing....

I agree, if progressives/liberals want to start being heard, a 3rd party has to be the way. I believe the only true progressives that were running this year were Dennis Kucinich and Mike Gravel. What happened? They got shut out of debates, ignored by the media, and were put into a 'fringe' category. The first debate last April, Gravel basically called the 'corporate' democrats out and people just laughed and called him a batshit crazy old man. It's pretty sick. Democrats and Republicans are different sides to the same coin. As long as we fall into this 2 party crap, nothing will ever be done with America accept the same old, same old.


We need to wake up and set our own trail!

[Catsbrains]

190. Hmm.I've been wondering why people are settling when they could have had a Kucinich.

[puebloknot]

191. K&R "The debates?" "The primaries?" A disgusting tea party...

...designed to distract the wide-eyed, cheering masses (and sadly right here at DU). We're witnessing a pathetic charade that anyone with an eighth-grade education and an attention span can see right through.

Questions at the debates are carefully orchestrated so as to avoid substantive issues. How the candidates are getting along is *the* topic of the day. Reports about the number of deaths Bushco is responsible for in Iraq are "unseemly." It's all about circling the wagons and nurturing the collective "Us," and no thinkers need apply!

When I feel this way, I wonder how the legends of our past, like MLK, managed to keep hope alive. Maybe it wasn't hope so much as just rote putting one foot in front of the other because they couldn't face failing all the people who were depending on them.

[caseycoon]

195. I'm not sure what a progressive is exactly.

I'm a heartsick old liberal Democrat in the mold of Howard Dean & Dennis Kucinich. Some who say they are progressive are far from what I believe in.

You speak for me debbierlus, as do many of those who have replied here.
Thanks to all of you!

[pokercat999]

197. OK, I'm here to help. What's your proposal? A week, month,

year of national strikes? Force the rethug-lite controlled congress to impeach? Civil disobedience? Out right revolution? You told us the problem and what wasn't working, (going along with the system, being good citizens, voting). So now I ask, what can we do? Burn all the Wal-marts? Kill all the CEOs? Just drop out and move to an island (most desirable, least do-able). Tell us, oh mighty one.

Personally I like the idea of national strike weeks. No travel no purchases no school, no tee-vee, just stay at home, read, think, make love.......Hmmmmm.

[Andy Canuck]

198. Sometimes we are all more susceptible to the media

than we realize.

[ozone_man]

200. While US is going bankrupt, we run a popularity contest.

Hoping is not going to get us out of this mess. Recognizing the problems and who is responsible for them will. The military industrial complex and corporate welfare are the culprits.

[ironrooster]

201. it's gone -

I know this will seem like a downer - but the country is broken; by that I mean that the ability for people of modest means to raise themselves economically is disappearing (manufacturing used to be the way). There are still a few ways that a person of modest means and no substantial connections may improve their standing - but it is extremely difficult. I managed through the help of my wife to get off the corporate teat and now work at home for about the same amount of $$. We are on her health care plan and consider ourselves lucky.

Eventually manufacturing will come back in the form of foreign capital and sovereign funds - a kind of reverse outsourcing (by that time trade unions will probably be completely gutted). This has been in the works for years and will continue under DINO's. Race to the bottom? Of course - and it will continue to go this way until the market acknowledges that some resources are finite (oil/gas/water/non-exhausted soil) and we the needed paradigm shift in our thinking away from unregulated corporatism that eats up everything and everyone in sight.

Sometimes I feel (flame on) that it would benefit us more to just let the bastards have it(unregulated control) - and run this train RIGHT OVER THE CLIFF as quickly as possible - because they will - its inevitable. I'm almost at the point of voting for the craziest bastard I can find to 'hasten' the process.

I know that you will probably say my comments are stupid and reckless and that so much harm will ensue - and you would be correct - but its going to happen anyway.

(edited to add)

There are non-violent means for changing (both parties) - let's just say it involves getting involved in the parties and "working from the inside". Until we do what needs to be done - no matter how distasteful, we will still find ourselves in the same predicament. So if the parties are 'breaking us' how can they be broken... thinking of a worm in an apple...

[Deep13]

204. I'm not surprised.

Months ago I predicted that in November we would have a choice between a pro-imperial, pro-corporate candidate who is pro-choice and anti-gun vs, a pro-imperial, pro-corporate candidate who is pro-gun and anti-abortion.

[man4allcats]

205. The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to think that

maybe it's time for this again:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

[mnhtnbb]

206. I think this cinches our retirement to Panama. It makes me very, very sad

and worried for the future of our children.

[yardwork]

207. Another k&r

[debbierlus]

211. Omg. Edwards is out. Now, what the fuck do we do?

I guess I have been in a certain state of denial. Grasping at straws, HOPING beyond hope that America would open its eyes and vote for the best of the three.

Edwards was in no way, shape, or form perfect. However, he was acknowledging the existence of the underlying problems, and not just spewing the usual meaningless hype. And, now, we are stuck with putting lipstick on a pig.

[peacetalksforall]

212. I somehow have the feeling that our futures has just taken a plunge

for the worse. I don't want hope. I want change. We replaced British kings with Corporate kings. We are being eaten alive and we don't even notice. And neither Clinton or Obama really notice.

Well, maybe I'll get more done - I have no interest in watching the kid-fights between, supposedly, two adults or make that three adults.

[madrchsod]

216. no-- they will keep us on life support so the masses won`t notice

they need someone to feed them and take out their trash...

[pegleg]

213. As long as we condone "Black Box Voting" which makes it so

very easy to falsify the voting process, as long as we continue to allow media to become centralized around corporate government by dennying that we need a new revised Fairness Doctrine, and as long as we continue to allow our society to decay as has happened under Republican/corporate government over the past quarter century - things will never change. Your vote will not count. Your opinion will not matter. And all our futures will be at the mercy of those who control us.

[burbank_spiffers]

214. Trying not to write something that will get my comment deleted...

I completely agree - I know there are many true progressives on DU, but there aren't enough in the country to nominate a truly progressive candidate.

[madrchsod]

215. yup he had to go----

dennis was ufo`d and john was ignored. now we have either a geezer and a young guy who will go up against the republican geezer...

[redqueen]

217. Who's afraid of John Edwards?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4285825

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4286520


:banghead:

[metamars]

222. Changing our government requires much more than voting

IMO, progressives who think that they can alter our government significantly just by voting and talking with the choir are kidding only themselves. Why don't progressives support Progressive Democrats of America ( pdamerica.org ) in a big way? I've practically begged the bleeding hearts as the Randi Rhodes forum to support, but hardly anybody does so. How to explain this obtuseness? I can't, except for theorizing that people have extraordinary difficulty thinking outside of the box, and that the powers that be have been very effective at constructing mental boxes for the populace.

As for Kucinich, he blew a once-or-twice-in-a-lifetime opportunity to push the PDA, along with his candidacy. Believe it or not, it was always a logical possibility that Kucinich would not win the nomination. He COULD have altered the political landscape in America forever by pushing the PDA, and given it a quantum boost in membership, and furthermore emphasizing the need to stay committed politically to what you believe - far beyond voting.

Unfortunately, he wasn't that clever - even though it's hard to understand why Kucinich is not a board member of the PDA, never mind just a member.

So, I would say that most progressives have not been clever enough and honest enough with themselves to figure out how to push the democratic party towards more populist goals. I'm not the least bit surprised by what has happened to Kucinich, and now Edwards.

Don't feel bad - rank and file Republicans are not, in fact, well served by Congressional Republicans. And even though Ron Paul embodies a number of populist viewpoints that many voters can sign on to (plus a few wacky ones they probably can't :-) ), Ron Paul has been no more clever than Kucinich was in working for change that doesn't depend overwhelmingly on themselves. Ron Paul was a former board member of the Republican Liberty Caucus (rlc.org), but doesn't talk about it!

Is this dumb, or what? At least Kucinich can run again, and if he does more than Ralph Nader does between elections to organize a real political movement, he may make it next time. But given Ron Paul's age, will he be able to run again without using a walker?

Of course, the media has sidelined the non-corporatist candidates, and that problem needs to be fixed, also. Please see my proposal "Putting the NY Times Out of Business" on this score + attendant thread. We are closer to a media solution than you are probably aware of:


>> Putting the NY Times Out of Business <<
Proposal to replace ALL corrupt media

I have posted a proposal on the Randi Rhodes show forum for replacing our current media with a new, sustainable media that facilitates the selection of "filtering agents". You can think of these as honest gatekeepers that YOU trust - and that keep out trivial information, rather than very important information that groups with economic and other hidden agendas prefer to hide from you.

Broadband access is now up to 53% in the US ( see http://www.websiteoptimization.com/bw/0706/ ), so it is quite possible to target TELEVISION, which is how about 48% of Americans get 30+ minutes of news per day (as opposed to only about 9% over the internet). See http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=282

The thread is entitled: "Putting the NY Times Out of Business"
The thread is subtitled: "Proposal to replace ALL corrupt media"

Link:
http://forums.therandirhodesshow.com/index.php?showtopic=76406&hl=

PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO ANYBODY WHO MIGHT BE INTERESTED

[va4wilderness]

225. The non-corporatist candidates got squeezed out...

a LONG, LONG time ago. Remember when they were talking about how much money everybody was raising months and months ago. Money got all the attention instead of ISSUES. Never mind the ballot box. It was all decided long before anyone even got to vote.

It's sickening. It's not democracy.

:puke:

[femrap]

227. I feel sick...

McCain/Huckabee with Lieberman as Sec'y of Defense. Bend over and kiss your ass goodbye.

That Mayan calendar is probably right..12-21-2012.

[derby378]

228. The DLC is only an inch away from controlling the 2008 election

If Hillary wins the nomination, Al From will probably go after Howard Dean despite his successes in 2006. And if Dean gets dumped as DNC chair, we really will be "Democratic Underground" once again.

[Individualist]

229. Until most progressives start walking the walk instead of just talking the talk,

nothing will change. Rewarding enabling/corruption with votes results in more of the same as evidenced by the aftermath of the 2006 election. Vote instead as your conscience tells you. I voted for DK on Jan. 18 and will write-in his name in the GE.

[catrose]

230. yeah. kick. the can

[jonnyra]

231. Well said debbie

Why anyone who claims to be for progresive policies could think that Clinton or Obama is better for us than Kucinich or perhaps Edwards I have never understood. No one speaks the truth like Kucinich...NO ONE. And I dont think anyone here would deny that. SO then the question is...why would you support another candidate the either hides from the truth or flat out distorts it? we all know Bush deserves to brought up for war crimes yet Kucinich is the only one made it a part of his political agenda while CLinton and Obama are virtually silent on this. So again...why would we not all rally around Kucinich when we KNOW HES SPEAKS THE TRUTH while others hide from it. It makes no sense. Maybe those who have expressed support for Clinton or Obama can explain. And please dont pull the electability bullshit...this is not a high school popularity contest its about our childrens future and the rule of law.

Kicked and recommended! On edit...ooops too late to recommend...but I would if I could!!

[BrklynLiberal]

232. K & R.

We will end up getting the govt that our actions have brought upon us.
The minority will suffer with the majority.

[girl_interrupted]

234. debbierlus awesome post, thank you

beautifully said.

[RoccoR5955]

233. A big Kick for this one.

I cannot agree more. It seems that we will have only the choice between Tweedledum, and Tweedledumber.
Why is it that so many Americans have turned into Egyptians, living in de Nile?

:kick:

[Le Taz Hot]

236. The progressive community IS NOT responsible

for ending up with Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Dum. You have the wrong terminology. The correct term would be "new Democrats," or Blue-Dog Democrats." Triangulating Democrats and Corporate Whore also works. The progressive candidate was Kucinich.

[amborin]

238. stop saying corporatist

that term has a specific meaning and it's not what you intend

otherwise....the problems you cite in your first main paragraph are not the result of corporate power, they're largely the consequence of bush's radical right wing adenda and insane straussian foreign policy

and partly the result of citizens going along with bush's initiatives.....did you call your congressmen to oppose the military commmissions act?

did you mobilize and march to protest the iraq invasion?

do you attend anti-war activities on a regular basis?

do you support unions? boycott goods made in china or sweatshop locations?

drink only "shade" coffee

reallly----this conspiracy theory that the media have tried to ignore edwards is just hogwash

edwards never had any traction since he bungled his VP position during the kerry campaign

just sat mute while kerry got swiftboated, VP candidates are supposd to vocally fight back, but not pretty boy

[Zorra]

247. The fascists control most Americans minds with a device know as an "idiot box".

We will never get anywhere as long as fascists control the airwaves.

From birth, most Americans are hypnotized by and addicted to the most powerful "opium of the masses" imaginable.

As long as corporations want Americans to vote for the candidates that corporations choose for them, they will always vote for them.

They can't help it, their minds are controlled by corporate media, and while they will profusely deny this, the fact that they consistently vote against their best interests speaks for itself.

This country is in a world of shit, and it is no accident that it got this way.

Kill your television.

[avaistheone1]

248. It's true. It's time we start talking to our neighbors about our candidates

because otherwise the idiot box is doing all the talking.

I found out how real this is, by talking to my neighbor. She had all the Hannity talking points down to a tee. It was scary.

We need to open up and challenge minds like these. Voting for republicans is not in anyone's best interest unless you are a multimillionaire or Halliburton or Chevron.

[FiveGoodMen]

251. I've talked to my (former) friends.

Turns out, they believe the TV and not me.

I'm not sure we can compete with the media. If we can't get real news on the news, we may just be finished.

[pretzel4gore]

252. we have no leaders...

a 'leader' could be anyone, but a Dennis Kucinich (or Edwards, or Barbara Lee etc) has experience etc and, well there sure are alot of leftliberals out there, and neither Obama nor clinton promise anything except to 'work' with the criminal gopigs, hardly endearing them to anti-busheviks. The leaderless phenomenon isn't natural but it's a designed flaw in the US political system. In 'Up from Conservativism' ex republican scholar Michael Lind explains how the political cards are laid out, with we lefties forming 1/3rd, and the rightwing goonies forming another third. But there remains a huge constituent, the other third, which aren't allowed function on their terms..they're the financial conservative who're liberal socially, or some blend of that. They are ignored, by design, by both left and right political parties (the dems or repugs)...the idea is that you can't be both anti death penalty and anti abortion, or for reasonable welfare system but also for regulations of business-if you buy one part of it, you stuck with all of it. IOW, a 'reagen democrat' has only 2 choices, vore for the rightie or vote for the liberal. And as you can see, the rightwing benefits from the setup (Lind of course explains the idea in terms that apply to modern world, i'm just roughing it) With this in mind (and really, having 1/3rd of electorate IGNORED by design seems incredible - but we are a managed society, and there's obviously a purpose to it)..reading DU sometimes there's the feeling that the problem is with 'the people' or with circumstances- but the enemy is the same as what provoked the French Revolution, or the Russian Revolution, or indeed any conflict in which the have nots tried to share in the wealth with the haves...we have no leaders because ...any effective leader who united both left and the 'wide' centre would trigger such fury in mr pig, and he would be spotlighted 24/7 by mr pig with all the flaws the issue! so he/she certainly wouldn't enter through the front door (lol) iow run and win via 'managed' elections...