I don't recall Dean and Clark being so uncivil toward one another in 2004.

[Writer]

And that is all I have to say on that.

~Writer~

[Tweed]

1. You have a short memory

[Writer]

3. Okay, muckraker, what great embellishment do you have for me?

[mahina]

4. Sometimes that's a mercy.

I"m looking forward to forgetting a lot of this stuff.

[mahina]

2. I remember hearing John Kerry shoplift whole parts of Dean's speeches

during the debates, and just loathing him for it. Of course I was out there after the primary hustling for him 24-7. But it bugged the hell out of me. I was still kind of pissed until he came out for Obama.
All's well.

[karynnj]

15. I did not see that - and in the very early debates I wanted

Kerry or Dean. So, I read and watched both when I could find them. I think what you saw were things both had long time roots in. What specifically are you talking about. Their styles were quite different so I seriously doubt Kerry "shoplifted" his words. On many issues there plans when reduced to 30 second responses would sound alike - and in some cases (like the environment) matched Kerry's record the best.

I have seen the same complaints this year that Obama is stealing Edwards issues and words. In one instance it had to do with poverty, an issue many many Democrats spoke of before Edwards was born. Edwards people in 2006 accused Kerry of stealing from Edwards when he urged people to become activists. The words and example (the 1970 environmental movement) were nearly identical to ones Kerry had used in NH in 2003 and in speeches far earlier than that - not to mention, Kerry was an environmental and anti-war activist long before he was a politician - back in the days when Edwards was so apolitical that he says he doesn't remember who he cast his first Presidential ballot for.

In debates, the candidates have a problem in speaking on detailed issues. They do agree about 90% on most of these issues, but they need to differentiate themselves. This leads them to concentrate on the 10% where they differ. The problem though is that NO candidate gets 100% of what their plan is if they become President. Powerful Senate and House leaders on those issues will be involved in crafting the actual legislation that passes. Some issues now fought over will really be decided there. For instance, look at mandates for health insurance. It may be that Congress will not pass a plan with mandates because the libertarian leaning wing will vote against it OR it may be that Congress will insist upon it as needed to make it fiscally viable longterm. Either way, many important concepts - like plans that eliminate the pre-existing conditions clauses are in all three plans - and that is a massive change.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

5. I don't recall the MSM giving their conduct toward each other that much scrutiny.

For all we know they could have been flipping each other the bird every time they passed.

[Writer]

6. I don't believe the media have an agenda here...

I think a few of these issues are fairly obvious... I think the cameras are picking up exchanges during the debates and certainly this moment that are merely demonstrating the tone of their relationship.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

8. You have GOT to be kidding me!

Keith Olbermann himself suggested that the photographer was angling for a Pulitzer.

Rule Number One: The corporate media ALWAYS have an agenda. Always.

This is a nothing story that may be spun into an election issue, if the agenda-driven media deem it to be so.

[Writer]

9. You're talking to the wrong lady about media issues.

I don't believe in the downward politics sent by the supposed "mind masters" of the corporate media... as I ALSO don't believe that the media are "liberal." The media run on money first and foremost, and if conservative or liberal politics is the appeal of the day, they'll go with that.

So... we're at an impasse here.

And Keith Olbermann knows his liberal audience quite well.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

10. Hon, no one here believes the media are liberal

Personally, I'm with Al Franken, who said that saying the problem with the media is that it's too conservative or too liberal is like saying the problem with Al Qaeda is that they use too much olive oil in their hummus. The media are corporate.

And to suggest that they aren't top-down flies in the face of rationality. Do you honestly believe that your fellow Americans, if given a real and informed choice, would prefer nonstop Britney/Lindsey/grotesque murder or car crash coverage over news about issues that affect their lives? Really? Why are the ratings of cable news networks and network news so abysmally low, and going down all the time? I think it's because people instinctively realize if they're going to be fed "infotainment" they might as well get the real deal from E True Hollywood Story or American Idol. The so-called "news" outlets are okay with being marginalized, so long as they are promoting the official line of GE or Viacom.

We're not at an impasse as to what is going on. We seem to disagree about where it's coming from. Make no mistake, the corporations are in charge. Watch Noam Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent", if you haven't already. Even after 15 years, it's an eye-opener.

[incapsulated]

7. It wasn't this bad, this constant

They went at each other occasionally, all the candidates, but nothing like this.

[elleng]

13. I think that's right, incap. HI!

Wes and Dean may have had 1 or 2 running disagreements, but nothing like this. And then there was Lieber***; couldn't be decent or civil towards Clark. One of my favorite incidents of all time was Al Sharpton's greeting to Wes, at an early debate, when Lieber*** again suggested that Wes was not a 'real' Democrat.

Of course, the scene was entirely different from today's; after all, Kerry was expected to appear for a long time; he kind of took late 2003 off, as I recall.

[karynnj]

16. Kerry didn't take late 2003 off, the media just stopped covering him

There is an excellent video in the CSPAN archive of Kerry walking around a NH town in August 2003 - speaking to people on the street, in a restaurant, in stores (even playing classical guitar at a music store and finally giving a speech. He spent much of late fall in Iowa speaking to small groups of people, staying until all questions were asked. Teresa was also out meeting people every day in NH or Ohio. It would not have made sense to mortgage his home for money in December 2003, while he was taking the time off.

Notice that short as he is on money, I have not read of Edwards self funding. (Romney has) Though Teresa is incredibly wealthy, Kerry risked all his own personal wealth in 2003. He personally would have been very much in debt had the campaign used the money and floundered.

[elleng]

17. Thanks for clarification, karynnj;

FINALLY we get true facts! If media only did its job!

I located Sharpton comment, at an early debate after lieber*** challenged Wes' Democratic bona fides:

"I want to welcome him to our list of candidates. And don't be defensive about just joining the party. It's better to be a new Democrat that's a real Democrat than a lot of old Democrats up here that have been acting like Republicans all along."

[windbreeze]

18. He sure knew of what he spoke...didn't he??? n/t

[elleng]

19. Sharpton?

Sure did! He's a smart guy!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

11. Nice post. Forest Gump

;)

[Josh]

12. Maybe, but Dean and Kerry HATED each other; Dean and Gephardt too

I remember that. :)

[MADem]

14. Kerry and Dean went at it hammer and tongs.

Memories of bad stuff generally fade....they were VERY uncivil.