John Edwards is losing my vote ...

[krkaufman]

... if he doesn't soon make it clear that he'll support Obama for the nomination, should he not win the nomination, himself. I will not risk my vote adding to the delegate count for Hillary Clinton. The Clinton campaign's behavior since their scare in Iowa has shifted me from indifferent between Clinton and Obama, to wanting to purge the Clintons and their politics from the Democratic Party.

Personally, I'm not sure why Edwards hasn't made this clear, as I think many Obama and/or Edwards voters are "anybody but Clinton" voters who are casting their ballots for the candidate they think most likely to defeat her. If they knew that their vote for Obama or Edwards would eventually aggregate into a single ABC bucket, they'd then be more likely to vote based specifically on the platforms of the ABC candidates -- possible helping Edwards over the 15% threshold in many states, and preserving the vote of his supporters.

And I cannot fathom Edwards' platform being a priority within a Clinton adminstration. The last one ran as a progressive and then governed Right-of-center, so, based on experience, we're likely to get the same, again.

[xultar]

1. Dumbest post of the night.

[Maddy McCall]

3. On more than one level.

[stravu9]

8. Your Vote Counts!

I agree

[krkaufman]

36. Actually, your vote counts as NIL, if your primary candidate ...

... doesn't get over 15% of the votes cast. (And it's even more complicated in the caucuses.)

As our primaries work today, in reality, if a candidate doesn't get over the 15% delegate-allocation threshold, votes in support of them are effectively thrown-out. (Fortunately, Edwards looks like he'll cover the threshold today, in SC, but then that *is* his birth state -- and a state he won in 2004.)

[stravu9]

54. O my vote will count come November, it just won't count for Hill of Barry!

:)

[krkaufman]

58. Right. But my point was IRT the 15% primary threshold.

What is "Hill of Barry"?

[stravu9]

67. "Hillary or Barrack" I'm angry so my key boarding suffers!

thanks!

[krkaufman]

69. chuckle. Ok, thought there was some new nickname I wasn't aware of. n/t

:toast:

[krkaufman]

71. Re: our votes counting in the primaries

I'm annoyed to finally open my eyes and see how undemocratic the Democratic primaries are.

• If your preferred candidate doesn't get 15% of the vote in your state, your vote is discarded and your voice is effectively snuffed.
  
• Nearly 20% of the total delegates are not chosen through direct democratic election; rather, they are "superdelegates", party elders and officeholders.

As a first step, I'd like to see us reduce or eliminate the 15% threshold, or shift the primaries to Instant Runoff Voting, to ensure one's vote isn't totally disregarded.

[MADem]

9. Concur. nt

[MaineDem]

And completely untrue

Edwards HAS said he'd support the Dem nominee.

[krkaufman]

28. My post does not suggest that Edwards should not support the eventual nominee ...

... nor that Edwards has stated anything to the contrary. (None of the candidates have stated that they wouldn't support the eventual nominee.)

[citizen snips]

22. agreed

[MissDeeds]

57. Agreed

Pathetic to the max.

[Maddy McCall]

2. He is STILL a candidate, and he is campaigning as a candidate.

You wanting him to campaign for Obama while he's still in the race is really crazy.

[Levgreee]

6. agree

he shouldn't try to give any indication of leaning towards one or the other, if he were to lose

[krkaufman]

25. Didn't say he should "campaign for Obama" ...

... nor did I say that Edwards should not support the eventual nominee of the Dem. party (as another poster incoherently interpreted).

I'm merely stating the reality that...
(1) the 15% delegate-allocation threshold means many thousands of votes DON'T COUNT toward selecting our delegate (just ask Kucinich, Richardson, Biden, Dodd & Gravel supporters -- and many Edwards supporters in Nevada);
(2) Edwards could shift his delegates into either the Clinton or Obama camps, come the convention or sooner;

... and my opinion that:

(1) there is a finite number of Democratic voters in an "anybody but Clinton" stance, with that number growing as the Clintons' campaign tactics continue to be revealed, and those voters are generally going to vote for the candidate seen to have the best chance of defeating her;
(2) it is unclear which way Edwards will shift his support, once he fails to gain enough delegates for his own nomination;
(2) and, I've personally grown to loathe the Clinton campaign sufficiently that, though I may support Edwards' platform and prefer him to be the Dem. nominee, I'm not going to risk my vote being discarded (<15% in my state) or eventually counting towards Hillary Clinton's delegate count.

Yes, my comment may be crazy, buy it's not like JE is making any headway, otherwise. Right?

[MaineDem]

4. He stated on live tv the other night that he will unequivocally support the Dem nominee

Please stop spreading these untruths.

[krkaufman]

29. Umm... what untruth?

see: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4216537#4217253
and: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4216537#4217406

You're reading that "message" into the OP.

[protect our future]

5. It was "leaked" today by Bob Novak that John will be AG

in an Obama administration. According to Novak, the Obama campaign is "quietly" saying this.

[WinkyDink]

7. I guess more than Hillary "will say anything", then.

[MADem]

14. Ah, NOVAK--a bastion of TRUTH that all Democratic campaigns CONFIDE in!!!

If anyone from Obama's campaign--or anyone's, for that matter-- is talking to Novak, that's troubling. He's the bastard that outed Valerie Plame, after all.

[krkaufman]

30. And anybody believing anything that the "Douchebag of Liberty" has to say ...

... needs to check themselves, as well.

[MADem]

44. Where's he getting his info? NT

[krkaufman]

45. Direct line from Beelzebub, I expect.

(Rove, that is.)

Again, trust nothing coming from Robert Novak.

[MADem]

46. My tee vee just said there is NO DEAL. Obama's people have said "Hell no"

and that Edwards can do whatever he wants, and if he gets a pile of delegates that he can come talk to them later.

Edwards, for his part, has put it out that he's staying in.

[krkaufman]

50. Thanks for the info.

... and (sigh).

[Dhalgren]

16. Clinton should offer him a Supreme Court Justice-ship. He is more

qualified than Thomas. He would be a great SCJ...

[FormerDittoHead]

56. Wow. That WOULD be great... n/t

[alarimer]

34. That's actually a very good idea

I prefer Obama to Clinton but I am not sure I will even vote this year at all.

[Mnemosyne]

52. You may not vote in the most important election in recent US history?

Just WOW.

I am going to hold my nose and vote D, one last time in hope of true change. Edwards would be the easiest one for me to cast my vote for in Nov., but even if it's Hillary or Obama; one very last time.

I'm tired of the crap too, but at this point in history putting a D in the WH is imperative. I hate that, but its a fact.

Just one more time, then we will know soon after how screwn we could be. We found out quickly enough that Pelosi couldn't care less about We the People.

After this year I may never vote again if nothing changes with balloting.

:hi:

[krkaufman]

66. I'm leaning to not voting this Fall, either, if the choice is HRC ...

... just for the chance to, perhaps, end Clinton-style politics within our party ... but then I'm regularly reminded of the suffering under Rethugs ... and the criticality of the Supreme Court.

[Control-Z]

37. Yes, that it would be offered,

nothing about whether he would accept.

[krkaufman]

39. I'm loathe to believe anything Novak says ...

... but that indication, from a more reliable source, would give me hope, and likely keep me supporting Edwards in the primary, so long as polling indicates he could get over the 15% threshold.

[OzarkDem]

73. Yeah, I trust Bob Novak

not.

[Raine]

10. Edwards is still in the race

why would him or any candidate throw there support to another while they are still in the race? That makes no sense at all. :crazy:

[jackson_dem]

11. An "Edwards supporter" demanding he endorse Obama

Obamites are so transparent. :eyes:

[krkaufman]

40. Sorry to disappoint ...

... but my support for Obama would be reluctant. I prefer him only slightly ahead of Hill.

Further, my above post applies equally to Edwards supporters whose "backup" (2nd fav.) candidate is Clinton. Wouldn't it be ironic, then, when Edwards' delegates help put Obama over the top, with those "Edwards-then-Clinton" voters helping to defeat their second preference?

[liberal N proud]

12. If that is your view point, then you are not an Edwards supporter to begin with

If you were an Edwards supporter why would you say he needs to endorse Obama?

I just don't get it.

[krabigirl]

13. OMG...whatever.

[ellisonz]

15. ABC

[Tennessee Gal]

17. Stupid is as stupid does.

[cboy4]

18. Oh boy.

:eyes:

[patrice]

19. It's early. And you really need to think about how a three way negotiation works.

Telling anyone what you're going to do affects the undecided delegates too early, before you've had a chance to get as many as you could have gotten if they didn't know what you're ultimately going to do.

Assuming there are ultimately going to be some Un-Committeds, you need to get as many delegates as you can and either cause the opponent that you want least to run against to have the least delegates, which would be the best case scenario, or cause your two opponents to have so nearly equal delegate counts that your own delegates become more valuable.

If that doesn't give you an idea of what's going on, compare their policies and their financial supporters for similarities and differences. Which two are the most alike?

[saltpoint]

20. I'm hiding this thread so fast it will make your head spin. krkaufman,

you know what?

You need to do some re-prioritizing in your life.

[SammyWinstonJack]

23. ...

:thumbsup:

[krkaufman]

35. Ummm... that's exactly what this thread's about.

I'm prioritizing avoidance of Clinton II, over the increasing improbability of Edwards I.

Thanks for the advice, and happy to have preemptively complied.

[Binka]

70. Peyton & I Busted Our Asses For John Today

I did laundry at 6:45 am so we could be on the stump at 9.00. I work 45+ hours a week and I am a single mother, Saturday is my day to just relax but the last two Peyton and I have canvassed for John. It was cold and wet today, messy for us yes, but perfect to find folks at home. We had our monopoly money and our new poster stating JOHN IS THE RIGHT "LEFT" TURN FROM THE TRAIN WRECK with a picture of Ben and his blasted up buddies at Bethesda and a picture of a homeless guy sitting in a doorway of an office building trying to keep dry in the pouring rain.

I will not give up on John until he tells me it is over. I love him that much and I believe what he has to offer our sick country.

[kurth]

21. Unprincipled and opportunistic

just like his idol Obama.

[krkaufman]

26. Uh, did you bother reading?

I prefer Edwards. Obama's just become my backup vote, since he's the only other remaining candidate that ain't Billary.

[Auntie Bush]

24. Did you ever stop to think Clinton HAD to vote right of center if he wanted to pass

ANY legislation with that disgusting Gingrich, Neocons, Starr and Right wing zealots barking up his pant leg right to his groin? Give the man a break! He did more than humanly possible and anyone will agree with that. That's why he's credited with being the best politician EVER.

He also HAD to campaign right of center if he wanted to win the General Election. Thank God he did or we would have had Bob Dole :puke: for president and three more conservative judges and no Roe vs. Wade. You forget to remember that and just remember what you want to. But go ahead and wallow in your hatred of all things Clinton. I'd also like to think...though Clinton made some mistakes...his heart was in it and he thought he was doing what was best...unfortunately it wasn't. That doesn't make him evil!

[krkaufman]

33. Right, and we'll hear the same thing ...

... when he gets back to the White House in 2009.

I'll vote for 'em in November, if I have to, but would prefer not.

[ClericJohnPreston]

27. How is that Kool-Aid

Skippy?

[krkaufman]

31. Your meaning is unclear. n/t

[OHdem10]

32. I could say Edwards loses my vote unless hje supports Hilary

This is stupid. We support Edwards and most of us will
do what we wish if he drops out.

[krkaufman]

41. Once you vote for Edwards in the primary, your control has ended.

The post is not about the GE.

And, yes, if Hillary is your second preference for the Dem. nomination, you certainly *should* base your primary vote on Edwards' chance of getting any delegates in your state (i.e. getting over 15% of the vote), as well as on the likelihood that his delegates would not count against your second preference, if he (Edwards) fails to win the nomination for himself.

[Control-Z]

38. I have never, ever,

not even once, used the ignore feature since registering here at DU, until tonight. Bye, bye.

Edit: Now I have to figure out how to use it. Can someone help me, please?

[liberal N proud]

42. In the original post...

Click on the icon

I have only used it once but that is the tool

[Control-Z]

47. Thanks, liberal N proud

Wow. I feel like I'm experiencing a new level of low tonight.

[krkaufman]

49. Well, say "howdy!" to the Clintons while you're down there. Thanks!

[krkaufman]

43. Just left-click on the red-X'd icon to the right of the username ...

... whom you wish to ignore.

Here, watch me do it.

[Control-Z]

48. Aren't you cute!

Thanks for the help, though.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KitchenWitch]

53. Last time I looked, Edwards was busy running for President

Why should he throw his support over to Obama, when he is still in the race???

:eyes:

[krkaufman]

59. Subtlely indicating his intentions of where his delegates would go ...

... should he not win the nomination, himself, is not going as far as throwing his support over to Obama.

[KitchenWitch]

60. I think his delegates can think for themselves as to whom they will support

if Edwards is not in the GE.

[krkaufman]

63. Huh? Who's talking about the GE?

The post is strictly limited to the Dem nomination, and how Edwards delegates will affect the final choice.

on edit: p.s. I *do* need to do some research to find out whether a candidates delegates are required to vote according to their candidate's statement/wishes, should that candidate shift his support to another.

[KitchenWitch]

64. My point is, he is still in the race.

As long as he is still in the race, his delegates are his. Period.

[krkaufman]

68. Yes, agreed.

But *my* concern grows from my recent evolution away from indifference between Obama and Clinton. I feel it is imperative that our nominee is Edwards or Obama (not HRC), and so am concerned that my vote for Edwards may eventually become a delegate for Clinton.

Your mileage will likely vary.

[Yukari Yakumo]

55. The problem with this is...

It seems that JRE and HRC have a rather rosy relationship right now. I have a sinking feeling that those two have already cooked up some backroom deal.

[krkaufman]

61. Actually, that is EXACTLY my problem.

I'm pro-Edwards... but am also NOW ABC, possibly even prioritizing ABC over Edwards. I vote Super Tuesday, and I'm having a hard time sticking w/ my preference, Edwards, if (1) it looks like he can't hit the 15% threshold in my state, or (2) I can't depend on my vote not somehow adding to Clinton's delegate count.

p.s. What gives you the impression that the JE/HRC relationship is "cozy"?

[quiller4]

62. Why should Edwards do anything but advance his own

candidacy at this point. It is still extremely early in the game. The top two candidates are going to be very close in delegate count for a long time. The longer Edwards stays in the race, the longer his message is heard and the more it influences the candidates and the campaign. That is a good thing. I can't understand any Edwards supporter urging him to drop out now.

[krkaufman]

72. re: "urge to drop out"... no such demand was made.

Edwards could subtly communicate his intent without dropping-out. I would still want him to stay in the race, but I'm shifting to an unwillingness for my vote to somehow result in increasing Hillary Clinton's delegate count.

Prior to the last few weeks, I was indifferent on Obama vs Clinton, but I now find it imperative that our nominee not be Hillary -- almost as strongly, perhaps more, that our candidate *be* Edwards.

[high density]

65. Edwards is still a candidate last I checked

You are delusional if you think a guy that's still in the race is going to endorse somebody else.

Maybe you had better just not vote at all if you are this paranoid about the process.

[robcon]

74. The assumption for many, if not most, IMO, is that Edwards won't be a candidate for long.

Speculation about what he will say when he drops out is perfectly legitimate, high density.

[krkaufman]

75. Your opinion. And no one said he should "endorse" any other candidate.

I've heard enough others voice my same concern, re: Edwards viability and the 15% threshold. Edwards supporters are going to face some tough decisions in the next few weeks.

[spooky3]

76. he'd LOSE mine under those conditions, so we cancel each other out.

Of course, my state doesn't vote until well after Super Tues. and I suspect we'll have a clearer idea of the nominee by then.

Please don't make assumptions about Edwards supporters or who their second choice might be.

[krkaufman]

77. No assumption was being made Re: how Edwards would shift his support ...

... or to whom his supporters would prefer he shift. Which was exactly my point. Where his delegates may eventually go is wholly unknown -- and I'm evolving to the opinion that "not Hillary" is becoming more important than "yes, Edwards", so this uncertainty is increasing in importance.

And, yes, it would seem that we are of opposite secondary preferences, but, based on the date of your primary, we wouldn't be cancelling each other out.

[spooky3]

79. please recall that you also said

"as I think many Obama and/or Edwards voters are 'anybody but Clinton' voters." So you were obviously attempting to make more than one "exactly my point" and that is part of what I would dispute.

While many Obama voters might be ABC (I don't know), I don't think you can produce any reliable data that Edwards voters are any more likely to be "ABC" voters than they are to be "ABO" voters. The data that have been collected are conflicting, and my guess (based on DUer replies for example) would be that the situation is in flux, that both O and E voters are pretty enthusiastic about their own candidate rather than voting "anybody but...", and that there are many Edwards voters who haven't determined a preference if forced to choose between O and C.

I have many concerns about the weaknesses that have become apparent in Obama during this campaign. I don't want to alienate his supporters here especially on a night of a big victory for him, so I won't articulate them, but I am sure I am not alone in having these concerns.

[krkaufman]

80. Oh, I have loads of concerns Re: Obama, as well ...

... but have even more re: Clinton ... and am beginning to doubt my preferred candidate's chances of hitting the P spot.

As for your critique, "I think many ... are" does not extrapolate to "I think most ... are" or "I think all ... are"; however, I concede that I *was* making an unreasonable assumption that most Edwards supporters would default to Obama -- so, considering this, I would agree that any implication from Edwards regarding whom he might support would have an indeterminate effect.

(Thanks for the feedback. You've helped with my decision.)

[Melinda]

78. "If people want the status quo, Senator Clinton's your candidate."... JE

John Edwards has made it consistently clear, time and time again, that he and Clinton are diametrical opposites in this race, I simply can not fathom how you, as an Edwards supporter, can not be aware of JE's position. Google can be your friend.

But don't believe me, listen to JE yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kugkNSa9xxo

[krkaufman]

82. Oh, I wholly agree with what you're indicating.

But that doesn't mean that he wouldn't compromise and throw-in with her.

Personally, I've recently grown so diametrically opposed to her politics, that I'm becoming less willing to risk my vote somehow adding to her delegate margins.

[midnight]

81. Edwards has made so much clear to us who care about

equality. Those who know and believe that this is a tough message to administer without the money or media. John has my confidence and vote.