Comparing Blacks Evangelicals To The KKK Is Fucked Up.

[KittyWampus]

Historically, Black Evangelists have championed and worked actively and resolutely on a variety of Progressive issues.

Tragically, homophobia does exist in the black community and it takes it's toll on society at large, not just the gay community and black gays specifically.

There are some DU'ers who consistently compare reaching out to black evangelicals and attempting to work with them as the same as reaching out to the Klan. And it's usually in the context of "If Obama can reach out to black evangelicals why shouldn't Edwards reach out to the Klan"?

This is so fucked up. It has an underlying bigotry all it's own. It reduces black evangelicals to a flat, one-sided dimension of "Homophobe". It shrinks individuals down to one point of contention.

It ignores the historical work the black evangelical community has done to further progressive causes and strengthen the Democratic party. It totally neglects the many other issues that they would agree with Progressives and the Left.

And it also totally kills the chance the Left and society have to tap the potential for change within these people. It negates even the possibility of broadening their perspective. And I'd argue that black evangelicals are much more amenable to casting off their bigotry toward gays than those in the white Fundamentalist movement BECAUSE they have so many other issues and life experiences in common with the Left.

No one is trying to excuse the homophobia whether it's exhibited by black evangelicals. However, ignoring these people means they are ripe for approach by the GOP. And that has been a tactic used by Rove, in case you didn't notice.

Which tactic will help black evangelicals grow out of their homophobia?

1. Work toward common goals with these people who share many of the same ideals so they can become familiar with those they now see through a distorted, unhealthy and divisive perspective.
2. Excluding and ignoring them whilst shouting homophobe in their direction and trashing anyone who reaches out to them.

Now when I've asked the above question numerous times, there is almost never answer. A few responders do say something along the lines of "it's not our job to change the minds of homophobes". To that non-answer all I can say is, "it's a damned good thing Martin Luther King didn't think that way or black would still be sitting on the back of the bus".

And lastly, the fact I've seen Hillary supporters trashing Obama whilst ignoring the many instances of their own chosen candidate pandering and embracing black evangelical homophobes and GOP Fundies is telling.

Because the ONLY difference between Obama and Hillary's approach has been that Obama reaches out to black evangelicals openly. When he speaks to their congregations he TALKS to them about their homophobia.

Hillary, meanwhile, only does things covertly hoping other constituencies won't notice. Other DU'ers have posted lengthy lists of examples of Hillary associating with homophobes. Essentially, Hillary supporters seem to think as long as she reaches out to black evangelicals in the dark and quietly it's okay. Frankly, I think that approach is deceitful and cowardly.

[Deep13]

1. I don't think Black Evangelicals have lynched anyone. nt

[mondo joe]

17. But if you look at the rate of suicide and homelessness among gay teens, whoever is

putting them in that position is responsible for deaths and other harm.

[Bluerthanblue]

38. maybe you need to look at the

picture a bit more objectivly.

The rate of homelessness and suicide among teens as a whole, is way too high.

I'm not denying the effects of prejudice and societal abuse that GLBT teens experience- but don't think that they have the corner on suffering and dispair.

My young son, is faced with the statistics listed in this link-



http://www.blacksandjews.com/BlackCondition.html

It's a nasty world.

And you may think that your suffering is the only one that matters, but it isn't. It MATTERS- and it is IMPORTANT- and homophobia has NO PLACE in our society-

But it is one of many on-going unacceptable injustices.


~

[mondo joe]

39. Maybe you need to learn reading comprehension.

I never said gay issues are the only issue. I don't think that. That's our projection.

I never supported a candidate who used a Klan member to reach out to his constituents, or a Neo Nazi. That would be disgusting.

I'm just not willing to accept a double standard for gay kids who are harmed and killed by the anti-gay hate some are happy to excuse.

[Bluerthanblue]

44. I never said you did either- what I DID

say, is that your issue is not the ONLY issue.

And people who minimize the reality of what being a black in America has meant, and still means, are no less offensive to me- than people who minimize the reality of what being a "gay kid" in America entails.

I'm not excusing anything-

I hope you find peace~

[mondo joe]

46. Try again.

You wrote "your suffering is the only one that matters".

Who suggested it was? And who even said it's MY suffering?

[Bluerthanblue]

48. you are correct- I did

imply that you only see the GLBT issue as vital.

And I apologize- That wasn't fair of me.

Your bitter, angry words about this issue, and the energy with which you and many others here keep screaming out this same event over and over again is no reason for me to put words in your mouth. I realize it is something you are passionate about- and for good reason.

I'm sorry I mis-represented your position.

peace~

[mondo joe]

51. Thanks for not putting words in my mouth. But you can keep "bitter" out too.

When I'm bitter I'll let you know.

[hulklogan]

49. Are you suggesting that GLBT Americans only recently started to experience bigotry?

We're not talking about all teens here, because I'm sure many teens are completely unaffected by the the ex-gay farce. Playing "who's the bigger victim" is the wrong strategy for everyone, GLBT Americans included.

[Bluerthanblue]

56. no, not at all- I'm

not ignorant of the LONG and terrible history of the abuse and oppression of GLBT people through out history.

Lobotomies, confinement in mental institutions, and the fact that more victims of the Holocaust were GLBT than Jewish.

And I have no interest in playing the "my pain is more important than your pain"- I was responding to the reply to the statement that about lynching and the KKK- which spoke of the suicides and homelessness among GLBT teens- which is real, but so is the suffering of people of Color in this country, and NOT just by people aligned with the KKK- It is still endemic- and often excused by those who claim to be "progressive".

peace~

[hulklogan]

63. Anti-gay bigotry is also excused by those who claim to be "progressive"

I don't think the two ideas are exactly a fair comparison either. After all, African-Americans are protected by federal hate crimes laws, but GLBT Americans can still be tortured and murdered without it being a hate crime.

[Bluerthanblue]

65. I never said that it wasn't - and I don't

believe it should be. (excused- that is)

As for the federal hate crimes laws, they may be on the books- but the only time you ever see them being put into action are when a person has been murdered-

Take for example *'s favorite debate example:
Grave Of James Byrd Desecrated Again
Jasper, Tex, grave of James Byrd Jr, whose murder by three white men in 1998 attracted international attention as hate crime, is desecrated second time

May 8, 2004

I believe that sexual orentation should definately be included in the qualifiers for a"Hate Crime"- I also believe that Gay "Marriage"- or at the very least, Civil Unions with full rights as extended to traditional "marriages" should be LAW.

When the day comes that GLBT equality through the law has been achieved, you may find, as I have, that while laws are important- their enactment does not mean that the issue of TRUE equality has been resolved. Even though people point to the past, and encourage you to believe that things are much better than life reveals them to be.

peace~

[hulklogan]

68. We have a lot of work to do to achieve full equality for everyone in this country

but I believe that minimizing the problem of youth suicide and homelessness in the GLBT community to draw distinctions between two types of bigotry is unfortunate. There can be more than one equality deficiency at once, and neither the GLBT community nor the African-American community has any reason to claim that the inequality they face is more important. They are different, but no less important.

If you don't care as much about GLBT youth as you care about other issues, that's okay. We can't give our hearts to every cause. But please do not try to minimize the problem by obscuring or denying the issue.

[Bluerthanblue]

70. it wasn't my

intent to minimize or obsure the trials which GLBT teens are coping with.

But despite my intent, it seems it was my result. And I apologize for that.

I do care about this issue. I care too much about too many issues.

thanks for being civil, and taking the time to respond to my views-



peace~


it's been a very long day, in a very long week

nite

[hulklogan]

71. You're right, it HAS been a long day and a long week.

Especially for those of us who care too much.

It's been a pleasure :thumbsup: :hi:

[joeybee12]

2. No, you can't compare them to the Klan, but you can't simply give BO

a free pass on his blind acceptance of their homophobia, or anyone's. I don't recall him apologizing for Donnie, just saying we have to recognize their are people out there...hateful, bigoted, and really fucked up people like Donnie to whom he handed a mike.

[KittyWampus]

3. He doesn't give them blind acceptance. He's mentioned it when speaking to congregations.

[joeybee12]

10. It's one thing to be uncomfortable with homosexuality...we are all

raised (pretty much most of us) in this society to believe it's wrong. yes, they're out there. But people like Donnie McClurkin are on the fringe, so filled with self-loathing they spew their hatred back at others. This is the guy Barak gave the mike to, and never apologized.

[FrenchieCat]

36. I think this issue continues to be sold as a hight pitch simply because

it allows Obama detractor to feel perfectly justified, and think that it is being taking totally out of porportion.

That's what I think.

A call for full equality

by Sen. Barack Obama
Published Thursday, 08-Nov-2007 in issue 1037
Gay and Lesbian Times

Over the last several weeks, the question of GLBT equality was placed on center stage by the appearance of Donnie McClurkin at one of my campaign events. McClurkin is a talented performer and a beloved figure among many African Americans and Christians around the country. At the same time, he espouses beliefs about homosexuality that I completely reject.

The events of the last several weeks are not the occasion that I would have chosen to discuss America’s divisions on gay rights and my own deep commitment to GLBT equality. Now that the issue is before us, however, I do not intend to run away from it. These events have provided an important opportunity for us to confront a difficult fact: There are good, decent, moral people in this country who do not yet embrace their gay brothers and sisters as full members of our shared community.

We will not secure full equality for all GLBT Americans until we learn how to address that deep disagreement and move beyond it. To achieve that goal, we must state our beliefs boldly, bring the message of equality to audiences that have not yet accepted it, and listen to what those audiences have to say in return.

For my entire career in public life, I have brought the message of GLBT equality to skeptical audiences as well as friendly ones. No other leading candidate in the race for the Presidency has demonstrated the same commitment to the principle of full equality. I support the full and unqualified repeal of the federal Defense of Marriage Act. While some say we should repeal only part of the law, I believe we should get rid of that statute altogether. Federal law should not discriminate in any way against gay and lesbian couples. I will also fight to repeal the U.S. military’s Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy, a law that should never have been passed, and my Defense Department will work with top military leaders to implement that repeal.
http://www.gaylesbiantimes.com/?id=10906

Openly gay Latino mayor endorses Barack Obama
http://blabbeando.blogspot.com/2008/01/openly-gay-latino-mayor-to-endorse.html

I know that Obama does not condone Homophobia. And anyone saying that is just practicing in wishful thinking brought on for a desire to hate. Obama was very clear in his speech that he knew everyone would be listening to, because it is a MLK day speech being given at King's church. He knew that the entire Black community in the entire US including his "friend" would hear this.......

For most of this country's history, we in the African-American community have been at the receiving end of man's inhumanity to man. And all of us understand intimately the insidious role that race still sometimes plays – on the job, in the schools, in our health care system, and in our criminal justice system.

And yet, if we are honest with ourselves, we must admit that none of our hands are entirely clean. If we're honest with ourselves, we'll acknowledge that our own community has not always been true to King's vision of a beloved community.

We have scorned our gay brothers and sisters instead of embracing them. The scourge of anti-Semitism has, at times, revealed itself in our community. For too long, some of us have seen immigrants as competitors for jobs instead of companions in the fight for opportunity.

Every day, our politics fuels and exploits this kind of division across all races and regions; across gender and party. It is played out on television. It is sensationalized by the media. And last week, it even crept into the campaign for President, with charges and counter-charges that served to obscure the issues instead of illuminating the critical choices we face as a nation.
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/rospars/CGxG9#comments

Obama is best for gay rights

After more than a year of campaigning in the most wide-open primaries in decades, it’s finally time for voters to pick a president. On the Democratic side, the three hopefuls with a viable shot at the nomination have all signed on to almost every item on the so-called “gay agenda.”

That includes workplace rights and hate crime protection for gay and transgender Americans, repeal of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” and opposition to a constitutional amendment banning gays from marrying.

The differences that do exist come on the politically dicey issue of legal recognition for our relationships. Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and John Edwards all support repealing the provision of the infamous “Defense of Marriage Act” that blocks federal recognition of marriage licenses issued to gay couples. But only Obama and Edwards support full repeal of DOMA, including the provision that says each state can choose to ignore gay marriages from other states.

Hillary Clinton won’t go that far and has stopped short of criticizing her husband for signing DOMA and “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” into law. She and Obama have also declined to sponsor the Uniting American Families Act, which would extend to gay Americans the right to sponsor a non-American partner for citizenship. Then again, Edwards didn’t sign on to UAFA’s predecessor legislation during his Senate tenure, and all three say they support the idea of equal immigration rights in principle.

More: http://citizenchris.typepad.com/citizenchris/2008/01/obama-is-best-o.html

[joeybee12]

40. Well, I think differently...BO was asked to take Donnie off the program

...prior, and did not do it...it was a calculated decison that he needed the black evangelical vote rather than the gay vote in SC. Showed his true colors as far as I'm concerned.

[FrenchieCat]

42. One individual, such as this Donnie person is not powerful enough

for that to have been Obama's calculation. It is simply your speculation....

As a Minister's wife heavily involved in the Black Church and community, I can tell you now, that if your last name isn't Winans as a Gospel singer, you ain't all that.

Again, I believe that this story is contineously being stoked for purposes other than linking one man over and over again with Obama. It's pretty clear at this point.

[hulklogan]

50. Thank you, straight person, for telling the GLBT community

about your beliefs. Now we'll all be sure to ignore Senator Obama's fuzzy support of GLBT issues and vote for him five hundred times each.

[Withywindle]

54. Here's the crux of it, as I see it.

Obama says: There are good, decent, moral people in this country who do not yet embrace their gay brothers and sisters as full members of our shared community.


I see where he's coming from on this. After lots of thought, I reject it. I have family members whom I would like to believe are essentially "good, decent, moral people." They've mostly been nice to ME. They've done good things for their communities. They're hard-working and honest. They've made sacrifices to help others. All that is true. They still have very ugly racist and classist dimensions, though, and they aren't shy about it.

Are they really "good, decent, moral people"? Sadly, no. Because truly good people simply would not feel, much less say, the vile things some of the people on the white side of my family have said about people of color.

The same is true of homophobes. Sorry. It just disqualifies you. Bzzt, thanks for playing.

I disagree strongly with Barack on this. I think if you lie down with dogs, you'll get up with fleas.

(I'll probably still vote for him in the primary, though, cause he's still the best of the bunch. And send him yet more ranty emails hoping he'll hear it. :D)

[NMMNG]

72. Bingo

Insert any other group in that quote and people would have gone berserk.


"There are good, decent, moral people in this country who do not yet embrace their Black brothers and sisters as full members of our shared community."

"There are good, decent, moral people in this country who do not yet embrace their Christian brothers and sisters as full members of our shared community."

"There are good, decent, moral people in this country who do not yet embrace their Latino brothers and sisters as full members of our shared community."



Good, decent, moral people do not engage in bigotry and discrimination. They also don't give free passes to those who do.

[underpants]

4. Pitting the poor against the poor is nothing new

in fact it is the "Southern strategy" and some people are falling for it all over again

blacks vs. gays
blacks vs. latinos
latinos vs. gays

etc.

and by "poor" I mean the nonrich

[ShortnFiery]

5. Well put. The "divide and conquer" strategy HRC learned from being a Goldwater Conservative.

Such smarmy tactics keeps "the status quo" powers in control while providing bread and circuses bickering between us "little people." :thumbsdown:

[FrenchieCat]

37. And folks keep falling for it.......

which is the saddest part of all. :(

[Celeborn Skywalker]

6. Good post.

I think we should reach out to all groups who may have an issue in common with us, rather it be black evangelicals, Ron Paul supporters who hate the war, Wall street bankers who are socially liberal,etc., etc. This is the way to ensure a November victory. It doesn't mean pandering to each group's bigotries, just recognizing what we have in common with them and encouraging them to vote based on that.

[TankLV]

27. let us know when he reaches out to the RACISTS...

he won't and he DOESN'T...

[mondo joe]

30. Then how about Obama go on the Don Imus show?

[Celeborn Skywalker]

32. I want to be clear

I'm talking about black evangelicals in general. I don't mean bigots or homophobes. I think that Obama giving a stage to McClurkin was and is disgraceful. I thought we were talking about the community at large.

[mondo joe]

33. Ah. We agree. Thank you for explaining. I don't know why the OP thinks black evangelicals

are so bigoted against gays.

[NMMNG]

34. Kirbyjohn Caldwell?

Obama was working with him for a year or so, both before and after the McClurkin fiasco. It wasn't until the story hit the media that he suddenly dropped him like a hot potato. Not because he believed what he was doing was wrong, but because he feared the bad press. If he'd believed what he was doing was wrong he would have dropped Caldwell back in October. And it just makes me wonder how many other "ex-gay" people he has working for him on the down-low. He obviously has no qualms about screwing LGBTs over for votes and money from bigots.

http://news.lavenderliberal.com/2008/01/21/barack-obama-and-kirbyjon-caldwell-somebodys-fibbing-maybe-everybody/

[Dante_]

7. Do you condemn Homophobia with more than words?

Obama knows better. He claims to be street wise. So what is up with all this siding up to Homophobes?

where is the profile in courage?

[jasmine621]

8. Where do you get your information that black evangelicals are homophobic?

First, let me say this. I have a pretty good idea about both sides of the picture. My mom was black (deceased), my dad is white. I am considered " black" simply because that's how it's defined in the US. I know a lot of black Christians, white Christians, evangelicals on both sides and at all economic levels. My family is all over the place politically. But one thing is clear.

Every gay person has a mother and father. Every mother I know loves her children no matter what. I have yet to meet an evangelilcal homophobe either black or white. Now those evangelical ministers, pastors, and other leaders...some of whom are gay themselves...may spew that shit from their pulpits but the families that I know within those congregations love their children...gay or straight. I am sure there may be exceptions but that is what they would be...exceptions. At least 9 of my relatives are openly gay, have good jobs, and are making contributions to their communities and families. Stop buying the media shit that they keep throwing to pit every known group of society against every other group of society.

[Dante_]

9. "I have yet to meet an evangelilcal homophobe either black or white. " WTF?

Where do you live?

[TankLV]

29. YOU and the OP are the ones TRYING to frame it as an "evangelical" issue...

We have REPEATEDLY said it is the HOMOPHOBIC GAY BASHING BIGOTS that are THE issue...

you don't get it...

[FredScuttle]

11. Nice straw man

No one has said ALL black evangelicals are like the Klan. The point is that those black evangelicals who are virulent homophobes, like Obama's good friend Pastor Donnie McClurkin, espouse the same hatred, villification and ignorance as the KKK. Obama made a specific choice to align himself with this toxic strain in black evangelicalism and his supporters can't stand it when LGBT and straight Democrats alike call him to task on it

Obama's best friend in South Carolina - the "ex-gay" clown bigot, Donnie McClurkin

[KittyWampus]

12. Actually, you just proved my point, thanks. It's essentially a mirror of the bigotry.

[Solon]

14. That's just a bunch of bullshit...

How is it a mirror of the bigotry to speak out AGAINST the bigotry. Seriously, I simply don't understand how you tick at all. All I've seen is this "play nice with homophobic asshole" shit, to be honest, I'm sick of it.

[yardwork]

19. What?? You're not making any sense, and I think you're just trying to stir up trouble.

[mondo joe]

16. cryingshame has decided that black evangelicals are homophobic.

And then excuses it.

[yardwork]

20. If I were a black evangelical I would be very offended by the OP.

Meanwhile, as a white lesbian I'm offended by the OP because it's a flame-bait straw man bullshit argument designed to stir up trouble.

[mondo joe]

22. Me too. I'm sure there are evangelicals of all races who are not homophobic.

[yardwork]

26. I know for a fact that there are lots of evangelicals of all races who are not homophobic.

[hulklogan]

13. Thankfully, we have straight people around to tell us what to think about homophobia

In fact, now that we've been so graciously enlightened, I believe that we should always embrace the people who want to change us or kill us. If only Matthew Shepard and Michael Sandy and the guy in my home town who was murdered by someone in an "anti-gay panic" would just have hugged their attackers, they would still be alive today. :sarcasm:

Those Democrats who sell their souls to the evangelical bigot movement just to win one election will be punished by history. This party used to be the principled one, but it is sliding towards Romneyism.

[yardwork]

28. Yeah, straight white people from Long Island telling us about sexual politics in the South.

I'm so grateful their insight. /sarcasm

[mondo joe]

15. Bigots are bigots, regardless of race or religion. Gay teens are at high risk for suicide, for

homelessness and the associated dangers. That's a deadly toll that homophobic bigots take out on gays.

[yardwork]

18. Nobody is criticizing black evangelicals. This is a straw man argument.

People who support human rights are criticizing bigots who say hate-filled, harmful things against gay people, including those who use their "religion" as a cloak for bigotry. The Klan does the same thing.

I have not read a single post on DU claiming that all black evangelicals do this, so your argument is spurious. I think you're just trying to cause trouble.

[TankLV]

21. let us know when he gives the KKK a platform like he does REPEATEDLY to the gay bashers...

then we can begin to talk...

until then, shut the fuck up - you're spin is not succeeding...

[Sapphocrat]

23. Trying to convince me to suck face with people who condemn me to hell is fucked up. n/t

[NMMNG]

24. Who has compared black evangelicals with the KKK?

Please cite your references. Links would be helpful.

[TankLV]

25. and NO it's not about reaching out to the "evangelicals" it's about pandering to the HOMOPHOBIC

BIGOTS...

you still DON'T get it...

[Jamastiene]

31. What planet are you from?

"Black evangelicals" and homophobic preachers who harm gay youth are two different things. Your point is off base to say the least. Not all homophobic preachers are black evangelicals and not all black evangelicals are homophobes. I'm not even sure your post should be on DU from the get-go because it automatically lumps all black evangelicals into the homophobic category which is NOT the case. Your OP sounds racist as hell to me.

The truth is that skin color doesn't matter much when it comes to homophobic preachers who harm gay people. The fact that Obama panders to homophobes, is still wrong.

Quit trying to obfuscate the facts with bullshit.

[KennedyGuy]

35. Lay down with bigots..wake up with the bigot label, I'm afraid...

They deserve all the backlash they are gonna get..

[sampsonblk]

41. Black evangelicals are more important to the party than gays

It comes down to arithmetic, unfortunately. If you want to win black votes, you need to be in good shape with the black evangelical community. There really isn't any other way. Black preachers could be viewed as the superdelegates of the black community.

If you're a candidate and you had to choose, which way would you go?

*The people making the KKK comparisons are wackos. You won't have any success talking them out of it.

[mondo joe]

43. Both are important, for $ and for votes. That's why Obama is living a double life,

trying to bring both gays and anti-gay bigots along (which I do not confuse with black evangelicals).

Black evangelicals are not equivalent to the KKK, but homophobic bigots are - whatever their race or religion.

[KennedyGuy]

45. Encouraging bigotry to win an election is absurd

This will cost Obama dearly..and I am glad for that. I will never underatand how a group of people who have known hatred and bigorty, can so easly practice it against another group.

[NMMNG]

57. But it's okay

It's simple arithmetic, and it's only those homos who are getting shafted anyway. :sarcasm:

[NMMNG]

47. I don't mind calling you a damn bigot right out in the open

And if Barack Obama and his pals want to make it a racial issue then that's their choice. But he's forgetting something very important.

There are black LGBTs. And they vote. And many of them are pissed that Obama and his supporters are screwing them up the backside in favor of the bigot vote.

Just think of that next time you say it's okay to pander to the bigots for the race vote.

[sampsonblk]

73. I also don't mind calling you a damn bigot right out in the open

There are people in this world who disagree with you. If you can't get past that, don't blame me. I am not the cause of your hate.

[Sapphocrat]

53. Arithmetic, my ass.

If it all came down to numbers, African-Americans still wouldn't be able to vote in this country.

If it all came down to numbers, black evangelicals wouldn't be "important to the party" as all other African-Americans.

If it all came down to numbers, I could say something astoundingly offensive to you, such as: "Latinos are far more important to the party than black evangelicals."

What it really comes down to is something even that gay-hating Ayn Rand understood:

"Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual)."

You'd better thank your god every damned night that a few clear heads in this country took it upon themselves to understand that, too.

But you have made it crystal-clear since day one clear that as long as you've got yours, you couldn't care less about LGBT people.

Sadly, the oppressed often become the worst oppressors.

[Bluerthanblue]

52. An interesting link for those who might

be willing to do some reading-

http://www.operationrebirth.com/herndon3.html

Don't skim it though- you might get the wrong impression-
>>>>>>>>>>
Sadly, homophobia within the Black community does not come solely from our stubborn heterosexual counterparts. In actuality, the fiercest homophobic attacks we receive actually come from the fiery and evil hands of our very own gay/lesbian brothers and sisters.

Identical to how the fight for equality allowing women the right to vote was vehemently opposed by many women; the same can be said of the 1960's civil rights movement where Dr. Martin Luther King's biggest opposition actually came from other Black clergy. Now today, the same comparison can be said of the gay/lesbian civil rights struggle, especially within the Black community.

Many of the loudest and most fiery anti-gay preachers, pastors, bishops, and ministers are indeed gay/lesbian themselves. Many gospel artists, past and present who preach anti-gay sermons in the midst of their singing performances are indeed gay/lesbian. In fact across all spectrums of society regardless of ethnicity, socioeconomic status, or nationality; it is often the one that cries the loudest and the longest that always has something to hide.

When one hates another person, they often see in that person what they see in themselves and desire not to be. Internalized homophobia is the new "cancer" killing the Black community. It takes a racial minority, then subdivides it and causes the two factions to war, hurt, and destroy one another.

The result? The DL phenomenon which is now being blamed by the media for the increase of HIV/AIDS in the black community is one example. The creation of unfulfilling heterosexual marriages along with STDs creeping into the bedroom with innocent children caught in the middle is yet another result.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[NMMNG]

55. What are you getting at?

:shrug:

[KennedyGuy]

58. trying to justify Black bigotry aganist gays?

[Sapphocrat]

60. Sounds like it, by way of blaming the victim. n/t

[Bluerthanblue]

62. justify it???? ABSOLUTELY

NOT-

Acknowledge that it exists?

Yes-

read here if you will- this may be a bit more informative:


http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=2169

[Jamastiene]

59. Looks like it's back to the old "homophobes are gay" song and dance.

You know just like all those Nazis were really Jewish. :sarcasm:

:eyes:

[Bluerthanblue]

67. no, - not by a long shot- but

Donnie McClurken is a gay man. I do not believe there is any such thing as 'ex-gay' and his words and deeds hurt his brothers and sisters who are GLBT, and encourage those within his church to think that there issomething wrong/broken/in need of healingabout being gay.

I do think this article was a bit 'simplistic' in those that it pointed to as being the biggest purveyors of bigotry- there is some merit to the belief that people who are quick to point to others and accuse them of being less than acceptable and equal, usually have something they are hiding, or struggling with, and have little self worth.- That point was made, but not as strongly as it should have been perhaps.

peace~

[hulklogan]

61. The only group you can blame for homophobia is the straight community

They are responsible for it, they created it and perpetuate it and need to deal with it.

Internalized homophobia is a direct result of the heterosexual family and the militant heterosexual society that tries to deny the natural existence of GLBT Americans. I have never met an out and proud queer family who teaches their children anti-gay bigotry. It is the straight community and their culture of shame that created the DL, toilet toe-tappers, an the vile ex-gay torture programs.

I certainly hope you don't believe the nonsense in this article.

[Bluerthanblue]

64. I do believe it- just as I believe that most of those who

were so frickin "outraged" by Clinton's Lewinsky affair were people who were involved in the exact same thing, just living under the radar (at least for a while)

Like Bob Livingston- Newt Gingrich- Henry Hyde-Dan Burton-Helen Chenoworth-


This article is speaking to Donnie McClurken- and others who condemn the GLBT community- from within the church.

It doesn't appear people actually read and comprehended what was written here.

You might want to try again.
~

[hulklogan]

66. I read the article for the third time, and arrived at the same conclusion

The article begins by blaming GLBT Americans for internalized homophobia and its associated consequences. This couldn't be more wrong. Straight people who raise children in heterosexual-dominated families and shame their children into developing internalized homophobia are responsible for it. I realize that it is comforting for straight people to pretend that the worst homophobes are gay so they don't have be responsible for homophobia, but it's time for the heterosexual community to accept its own failings.

Despite my own personal rejection of religion, I have to support of the second part of the article. If praying to God helps a gay person struggling with internalized homophobia to overcome it and accept themselves as perfect and without need for change, I can only support that. Hopefully, once they have realized their full worthy selves, they will also understand that the closet was created by straight people out of ignorance and fantasy.

The "homophobes are secretly gay" nonsense is just the next ploy of the anti-gay bigots to marginalize and guilt-trip the GLBT community. I'm sorry that Herndon L. Davis has fallen for it.

[Bluerthanblue]

69. I think that it IS relevant, when

you take McClurken into the discussion. I also agree, that the concept of distancing oneself from the issue, does factor in. And I share your feeling that the beginning does seem to make it a "their problem"- kind of thing. It isn't that cut and dried, and there are many, MANY straight people- the majority imo- who are homophobic.

I'm glad you were able to get what I got from this article- and that was the affirming- "you are loved" - "you are perfect"- "you are every bit whole" truth that is encouraged by this group.

It (to me) IS important to remember that while McClurken is causing harm and hurt, he- as much as any other gay man, is suffering. He just doesn't realize that in his effort to find acceptance and peace, he is doing terrible things to people who least deserve it.- That came through to me in this- but maybe it's just me.

thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me

peace~