Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

I dislike the pandering and platitudes from Obama

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 03:23 AM
Original message
I dislike the pandering and platitudes from Obama
Edited on Fri Jan-25-08 03:27 AM by jpgray
But I can see why he's chosen to engage in them. I believe he feels it's necessary for him to win. I also believe he judges that solely talking about progressive policy (which in isolation is overwhelmingly popular) in opposition to conservative policy is not always the way to win.

In this atmosphere, he has a point--note the electoral fate of every candidate who has talked seriously about progressive policy in recent times. Media coverage is essentially based these days on illusory "character" issues and image marketing. Whether or not there's any substance to the script doesn't matter, if the media fall in love with it and the marketing is successful. It's how an ex-alcoholic Yalie who hates horses became the plainspoken cowboy everyone wants to have a beer with. I hate this phenomenon, I hate that issues aren't covered as much as these superficial trifles--and that one can exist in total contradiction of the other--but I can't deny that it's been happening for a long time.

Now before you think this is a wholly negative thread, let me remind you that pandering is a skill. It's a talent. It can win elections. To do it and be believed is difficult, because the essence of pandering is being vague. If you aren't vague enough when you pander, your shameful prostration before one voter bloc will inexorably piss off another. It takes skill to balance one's pandering, and Obama's got skills. The idea is to throw up a screen of platitudes and glittering generalities for the media and your policy opponents to focus on, and keep your policy very moderate or at least keep its less moderate elements under the radar. Obama's platform is moderate overall, but it does contain progressive elements. His pandering invariably plays to groups that would oppose those progressive elements, and seeks to placate those opponents with rhetoric. At the same time, he seeks to avoid pissing off the base with his pandering.

Examples? Getting most progressive parts of his platform passed will require massive confrontation of the GOP, who will fight tooth and nail to defeat him and will never give him any quarter whatsoever. If Obama focused on the reality of this division and upcoming battle, no conservative voter or pundit would be inclined to like him. So instead he throws up a smokescreen of media-beloved platitudes. He claims to represent "bipartisanship," "hope" and "change," even though the three plainly do not go together if you want to enact a progressive platform. The fact remains that passing many elements of his platform will require a wholesale confrontation of some dearly-held GOP beliefs, and having that fight in the campaign is something he's decided not to do. The idea that "bipartisanship" is possible in passing his platform is patently false. Yet the media and some of the public -love- the idea of "bipartisanship." I wouldn't be surprised if they portrayed the Habeas Corpus fight as "partisan bickering" simply because it divided the two parties.

Obama also makes extremely general but vaguely positive comments about dearly-held GOP myths, such as Reagan's great abilities or the GOP being the "party of ideas." He is very careful, however, not to make comments that are too complimentary--many aren't even directly complimentary. The GOP -was- "seen" as the party of ideas (by some), and Reagan -did- represent a transforming change. His vague comments on GOP mythology are thus like a Rorschach blot--progressives are free to see them as objective observations, and conservatives are free to see them as indirect praise for their party. Determining what Obama actually believes from these comments is impossible.

Does it work? Does it make conservatives opposed to his actual -policies- cut him a break because they've bought into the -script-? Well, see for yourself:

TUCKER CARLSON: What percentage, would you say, of liberal—I hate to use the term, but “opinion makers,” columnists, reporters, people who, you know, throw their opinions out there and try to convince others—are for Obama and mad at the Clintons?

MARGARET CARLSON: Well, I’ve never seen tough, hard, mean press people be so taken at an event as they are at an Obama event when he gives one of his really good speeches. I mean, you can`t help but be—have you been at them?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes, I have. Yes.

MARGARET CARLSON: And how do you feel?

TUCKER CARLSON: I feel like, as someone who’s not going to vote for him because I don’t agree with him on the issues, I feel impressed by his inclusive tone. I don’t think he hates me for my ideas and I appreciate that.

MARGARET CARLSON: Yes. And he didn’t hate Reagan.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right.

MARGARET CARLSON: By the way, the Clintons hate him for not hating Reagan.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. No. No. Margaret Carlson of Bloomberg, thank you for coming on. I appreciate it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 03:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. That makes a great deal of sense.
But there are those of the base who see right through stuff like that and it puts our back up. Words can be like smoke, drifting away as soon as you try to grasp them in your hands, or they can have a solidity and substance of their own.

Many people don't like Edwards because of his perhaps "less than stellar" voting history, but he actually took chances with his votes rather than always taking the easy route, and that's going to leave scars. Sure he was wrong on some of them and freely admits it. But his words now have weight, and substance, and actually MATTER. Obama's pretty speeches have none of this.

And that can make all the difference in the world.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Even if you assume Edwards's words have zero weight and zero substance behind them
Edited on Fri Jan-25-08 03:50 AM by jpgray
He at least says things that need to be said as often as possible. Like this, for example:

The truth is our economy is only growing at the top. Forty percent of the economic growth over the past 20 years has gone to the top one percent of American families. Middle-class incomes have stagnated for the past seven years. Families are working longer hours, but finding it harder to get by. And for the 37 million Americans living in poverty, things are only getting worse.

But not everyone is struggling. In corporate America, where a broader sense of social responsibility once held sway, a culture of greed has taken over. Instead of treating their employees fairly, being accountable to their shareholders and contributing to America’s prosperity, CEOs are acting like their corporations exist primarily to build their own massive fortunes.

In 1960, the average CEO made 41 times what the average worker made. But in 2005, the average CEO made over 400 times the average worker salary. The share of corporate profits going to CEO pay has doubled since the 1990s. Meanwhile, the value of the minimum wage has plummeted 30 percent since 1979.


http://www.johnedwards.com/news/speeches/20071026-social-compact/

I can't claim with any certainty that he honestly represents those values, or that he did so in the Senate. But it's good that he expressed them, at least, and gets the facts of social injustice out there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. The WORDS have substance because they're true.
They're not based on abstracts but real facts about the circumstances we face. I think that's where we (or at least I) find the disconnect between Obama and Edwards. We don't have to wonder about what he's saying--it's plain as day. There's no "what did he mean by that, exactly?" We already know. And what's more, he's saying things that I've been saying for a long time now. It's no wonder I support Edwards--he could be reading things I myself have written. In fact, some of the things he says on occasion strike me as hauntingly familiar. I KNOW those thoughts and words as if I myself were saying them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. With Kucinich out, I'll be supporting Edwards in my caucus
Edited on Fri Jan-25-08 04:00 AM by jpgray
I deeply despise the image-based personality marketing that campaigns have become, so Hillary and Obama don't get very far with me. With this thread I hoped to help people who are as frustrated with that problem as I am find some peace with Obama's strategy, or at least help them understand why he would engage in such.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. It was a really good analysis, IMO.
And it makes sense.

I honestly think all of our candidates have their good points--even Obama, whose supporters here, to be honest, make me :banghead: I could even live with Hillary, though I'm not sure I want to deal with the fallout with Bill back in the White House. The sniping between the two camps is REALLY getting on my nerves. I'm not sure which is worse, to be honest. For a long time the Hillary camp here annoyed the hell out of me, but they've been eclipsed in recent weeks.

I think Edwards is hammering the issues, and important ones, and I think the voters need very much to see that issues are what makes or breaks a potential President. This branding and marketing of candidates based on perceived personality or persona is the one of the stupidest things we've allowed to be done to us and I hate it too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. I will vote for the Democrat in the GE. A massive GOP defeat is a top priority for me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. What votes did Edwards "take a chance" with rather than the easy route?
Please let me know.

What scars.

Are you serious. :wow:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Well, see post 5
:D

I think it's totally reasonable to distrust that a politician truly represents his rhetoric.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 04:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. I'm not engaging with you.
You don't listen to anything anyone else says and it's a complete waste of effort to try.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Not listening and not acknowledging are two different things
Plus, even if you do think a poster is being totally dismissive of your views, others who have similar objections or questions might read the reply, so it's not a total waste of time. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 03:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. Some memes never die
The tired old characterizations of Obama "lack substance."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. What, that he uses platitudes and pandering? All politicians do this to some extent
Religious pandering is near-universal, for example.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. You can't grasp the fact that this is OUR perception
and the perception of other people as well. You dismiss it as a meme, as if our perceptions are meaningless. It's offensive but I'll bet you don't care.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. Let me give you an example, then
Edited on Fri Jan-25-08 04:34 AM by jpgray
Obama lays claim to the platitude of bipartisanship. His platform contains some progressive planks that the GOP will vehemently oppose. So, is there a bipartisan (compromise) solution to these disagreements? Take Habeaus Corpus, where an essentially party-line vote had the Democrats in favor of its restoration and the GOP wanting to keep it buried. How do you restore Habeas Corpus in that case when there is -no- bipartisan agreement that it should be done? The only way to accomplish it would be a partisan fight. I refuse to believe Obama would compromise his values willy-nilly based on GOP opposition. So since claiming to espouse "bipartisanship" -and- progressive policy is contradictory, this leads me to believe the former is mostly a platitude, used for marketing himself as agreeable to both sides of the debate. Or do you disagree?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
15. Tucker, Rush and the rest embracing Obama - has nothing to do with his platform
It has everything to do with fighting Hillary and trying to saddle us with a potentially flawed candidate (Resko)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I'm not convinced of that. Obama won praise from both sides long before this race
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. But now, he's embraced strategically. Sublimating the Clinton hatred. and also
Edited on Sat Jan-26-08 08:51 AM by robbedvoter
hope to saddle us with a scandal riddled candidate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
17. Wow, Jp. Very perceptive, very persuasive. You have captured the essence of this elusivel campaign
I hope everyone on his board will read this, and take a moment to THINK about it. Especially those who brag of being hit by the BAM! All the punditry - left and right are promoting this "image" candidate. Thanks for including that very telling exchange between Tucker and Margaret.

People, we've got a country and a constitution to restore.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Well, I just hope those who hate this kind of rhetoric consider the reasons it's used
Edited on Fri Jan-25-08 07:58 AM by jpgray
Which are understandable. And I really do hate this type of rhetoric. You get some of it from almost every national-office candidate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
19. The Carlsons, and folks of their ilk, love having their ears tickled.
This is exactly what the corrupt Bush administration knew in 2000.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. True enough, but all candidates use this effect to some extent.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
20. Thanks, jp.
Sane & Insightful.

K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-25-08 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
22. What does Obama value more? Progressive legislation or bipartisanship?
Edited on Fri Jan-25-08 11:29 AM by jackson_dem
Let's "hope" it is the former. If it isn't we are in for four years of Lieberman.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. I don't think he would wholly compromise away his values in office
All I'm saying is that the "bipartisan" rhetoric doesn't make sense if he wants to enact a progressive platform. And I believe he does.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 30th 2024, 04:46 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC