WTF is wrong with people? Why not Kucinich?

[fenriswolf]

well whats your excuse?

[Lautremont]

1. He frightens me. I look at him and the face of Leon Trotsky appears,

laughing maniacally.

[Radical Activist]

3. lol

Are you serious? Either way that was hilarious.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

160. Are you saying that Kucinich's plans are communistic?

I don't see that at all. Single payer health care is the norm throughout the First World, and the last time I looked France and Britain weren't communist. Do you think leaving Iraq and relying upon diplomacy rather than the military are communistic ideals? If so, you haven't read the history of the USSR.

[Radical Activist]

2. I really do love him on the issues

but I'm convinced he would run the country into the ground. He's a great advocate but not a great manager of people or things.

[fenriswolf]

4. cleveland is alive

it went through some hard times but its better for it, more independant and wealthy for it too.

[Radical Activist]

I've seen how he runs his campaigns.

Its not a pretty site. I know the media and corporate donors aren't with him but a lot of his problems are of his own creation. At some point those arguments become excuses to cover up for a very poorly run campaign.

[fenriswolf]

18. he may not have funding

he may not have highly paid advisors or campaign managers who worked with former presidents. He may not have the best organizational skills. He has heart and conviction. What does it matter how his campaign is run? with president he can hire people to be orginized for him. You think bush ran his campaign? Its about policy.

[grytpype]

24. yeah, better times after he left office

I lived in NE Ohio during his reign, and I wouldn't trust him to run a hamburger stand.

Just because he says everything liberals want to hear, that doesn't mean he could be president.

[fenriswolf]

26. so what did he do

that was so awfuL?

[Berry Cool]

62. Yeah, Cleveland is filthy rich now, doncha know.

It's constantly being named "America's poorest city" or close to...

Just sayin'.

Personally, I well remember what Dennis the Menace was like as a mayor and have a dim memory of what he was like as a city councilman, and I would never vote for the guy. I think he'd be like a lefty version of Bush...getting nothing useful done, while at the same time making enemies everywhere he went, and turning people off his party for years to come.

And, for the record, his ability to attract a hot wife in his later years impresses me not at all. A lot of people who don't remember his past are madly in love with him today. She's just the most obvious one.

[fenriswolf]

89. what did he do that was so wrong?

from time to time decenters appear saying he was a horrible mayor. We'll what did he do that was so bad?

[cyclezealot]

55. bush has an mba and he ran the country into the ground.

policies is what causes change . so you'd go for someone with questionable policies. does not compute.

[defendandprotect]

113. Yeah . . . but that was by design --- in other words, Bush has succeeded --- !!!

[fenriswolf]

117. right but bush didn't do shit

his cronies, managers, handlers, lawyers all did if for him. A president is their to represent the people's vision, he has people to be organized and to fullfill that vision.

[defendandprotect]

123. Bush is as successful a puppet as Reagan was . . .

And what is the "vision" of the Democratic Party today ---?

Has anyone yet checked the Democratic Platform --?
Have any of the candidates even discussed anthing about it --- ???

[fenriswolf]

126. I would say everything kucinich is pushing

is what the majority of the democratic party yearns for. An abrupt end to the war with a consolidated global effort to stabalize the middle east. single payer universal health care, education, etc, etc. My post to this subthread was even though he is not good at orginization as seen by his campaign bush became president built on a pack of lies but also on the back of very many smart, evil men. All kucinich has to do is surround himself with smart good men who will help do the leg work while kucinich keeps us on course.

[begin_within]

5. As Molly Ivins said of Dennis, "He's got no Elvis." Unfortunately,

Obama is the one with the Elvis and Kucinich is the one with the right positions. Edwards somewhere in between.

[fenriswolf]

8. you care about positions though right?

[begin_within]

15. Yes, I have voted for Kucinich in the past and donated money to him twice.

But he has been ostracized, marginalized and trivialized by the commercial media - and sadly, elections are won and lost on television these days. They have forced him out of the picture.

[BringEmOn]

33. I thought Obama came off as the bloated, purple, dead on the toilet Elvis, tonight.

[99th_Monkey]

48. ...which is why I'm supporting Edwards. .. well, that AND ...

that he really DOES have a chance at this point to win this, to take the Democratic party back from the DLC,
especially with his stellar showing in the SC debate ... well, that AND his stunning endorsement by MLKIII today:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4147131

[cyclezealot]

56. i'd never consider elvis as president.

molly. some of the most charismatic leaders pushed us over the cliff. gotta disagree with molly on the importance of elvis mania.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

161. by that reasoning

William Seward would have been nominated President in 1860, and John C. Breckenridge would have won the GE.

[Art_from_Ark]

6. Media protrayal, perhaps?

One of my good friends from high school, who was quite a liberal in those days, thinks Kucinich is a "nut", although when asked for details, he couldn't say why.

[fenriswolf]

7. awsome so he has your support then?

[Art_from_Ark]

16. He's got my vote in the primary

My mom wants Edwards. Other relatives want Huckabee. One or two want Ron Paul.

[cyclezealot]

57. the media does this to all.

whether it be an entertainer,politician , or sport figure. look at the history of movie stars being forced over the edge by press' manipulation of imagery in order to sell newspapers. they sell everything from wars, ( 'Remember the Maine') and stopping the Asian peril to paparazzi attacks on princess Di. Because Kucinich has been a thorn to the media with his call efforts to stop media consolidation, MSNBC has been hitting on Kucinich years before this past primary season ever started. It's a miracle they don't play "Short People" as background music whenever they are forced to interview him.

[NikolaC]

73. A Good Bet

I was speaking to my mother about Kucinich and she did not know who he was. Mind you this woman watches a lot of television, which is sad. She and my Dad were the ones who used to school us on Democratic politics as kids at the dinner table when we were misguided enough to think that Ronnie Raygun was a "nice President". Now her attitude is that ALL politicians are the same and they will do nothing for her or the people, so why bother voting for any of the scum. It's sad to see. However, I will keep working on her :).

[andino]

9. Because...

While he appeals to a large portion of people on the left he doesn't appeal to the center or anyone on the right.

And as we all know, you need a large portion of the center to win an election..

Or, in some cases, a majority of the Supreme Court.

[fenriswolf]

12. but you'd vote for him in the primary right?

[andino]

25. No..

I vote for who I believe would do the best job not just on a candidates positions.

I can have just about every position in common with a candidate and if I believe that they would do a poor job I won't vote for them.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

163. If you look at generic polls

asking people to vote on issues rather than parties and candidates, you find a majority want single payer health care and also want to get out of Iraq ASAP.

If you go to http://www.dennis4president.com, there is a link where you can take a poll on your positions and see which candidate fits the best for you. I think Dennis has that link because he knows if people look at issues rather than the candidate, many find they agree with him.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

10. Because He's In LaLa Land, Is Borderline Delusional, And Couldn't Pull Off Almost Anything He Touts.

You and I could say the exact same things as he says, but we'd have no chance in hell of getting elected or having any of it come to fruition either.

[fenriswolf]

17. at this point

I'd like to vote on someone I believe who can do it. It is possible. We are one of the greatest nations together, if a handful of people can drive america into the ground think of what americans can do for america if we work together to prop it back up.

[Breeze54]

19. Please expand on how LaLa Land equals human rights, workers rights and being against war.

If that's the kind of world you want to live in as a single parent, I feel sorry for you.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

31. His Thinking That He Can Accomplish His Agenda By Being Elected President, Makes Him In Lala Land.

We all can say all the idealistic things we want. But there's this little annoying thing that constantly surrounds us, called reality. The reality is that he doesn't have a hope or prayer of successfully implementing 90% of his agenda. The fact he touts his agenda with a conviction that he could actually do these things, makes him firmly in lala land in my opinion.

That doesn't mean I disagree with the majority of his positions. Almost every political type test I've taken puts me quite close to him as it relates to the issues. But we're not talking about whether we disagree or agree with him here. We're talking about why we wouldn't push him as President. Well those are my reasons why. I feel he is borderline delusional in his portrayal and belief that he somehow could accomplish those things.

[Breeze54]

35. Oh ye of little faith...

He lost Ohio for 15 years because they thought he was nuts too and then...

15 years later, he was not only elected as a state senator but honored

for his wise decisions that saved Cleveland millions of dollars!!

I'm sure you've read that book to your kids! I did many times...

"The Little Engine That Could"

;)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. Maybe 15 Years From Now America Will Be More Ready.

But right now, we're in 15 year prior to his election to Ohio days.

[NikolaC]

72. Reality Can Be Changed

Too many have been manipulated to believe that his views are "delusional" and that he is not viable. Quite frankly, it is about his stances on issues and looks that have made him a target by the media. They have helped to turn his words, campaign and DK himself into a joke, or just someone to be ignored. What is unrealistic about wanting change and wanting to bring it about? We are stuck in a never ending cycle of picking lesser evils who only help to further destroy the country and it' citizens. I am voting my conscience because I am tired of voting for the selected. However, that is just how I feel.

[Fire Walk With Me]

79. Argue for your beliefs, and sure enough, they are yours.

I prefer to believe in Democracy and Freedom, and will fight for them with all of my strength.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

80. More Power To Ya. But I Really Don't See How That Directly Relates To My Reply.

I believe in freedom and democracy as well (shame on you for implying otherwise) and find them honorable to fight for. But that really has nothing to do with why I don't pick Dennis as my candidate of choice.

The fight must be won step by step and with perseverance, not with ideological delusion. Kucinich, even if he could win (which he can't, by a longshot) would not be able to get almost anything on his agenda accomplished. He would be completely ineffective. Complete failures of agenda do not make for a good fight towards democracy and freedom.

I'd rather have a candidate that though maybe not as 'ideologically perfect' in their rhetoric and claims, can actually get something done towards that goal of fighting for democracy and freedom. That way, I can feel better knowing that at least some steps were taken towards that end; rather than having none, but fooling myself into nice happy feel good thoughts based on idealogical delusion anyway.

[Fire Walk With Me]

83. "I believe in freedom and democracy as well (shame on you for implying otherwise)"

We all do, but actions are important. None of the media-approved candidates will truly fight for the issues that are at the heart of whether we remain free or not. They are silent on the issues Dennis presents, things that are of dire importance. Their silence is harrowing to me. I do not trust them to act if they will not even mention the issues.

If you believe that Dennis can win, and then vote for him and support him, then he will win. This is belief, and the actions that follow. I believe that this nightmare can be changed, and I will support the most verbal and active people in so doing.

I do not understand why people are willing to support that which does not speak of the change we desperately require, that is moving further and further away from us day by day. The corporations are determining our future. We require massive change, and only one candidate speaks of the change required. And has, and is fighting for it. I do not trust that any of the media-selected candidates shall fight where fighting is required. They won't even fight the media's exclusion of Dennis from the debates at the last second. This silence is IMO complicity of the worst sort, to the worst people in America. Since they will not fight the corporate selection of the issues heard and of the candidates heard, I sincerely doubt that they will do anything else to fight those who are running things (those with money). They are allowing things to get worse, but Dennis is fighting, and is making sure that the issues are heard and are in our attention spans. He is a true patriot.

Thus, I do not count support for the big three candidates to be support for any of the change we need. Worse, it appears to be capitulation to the status quo,and the people who are causing the status quo.

We must be as vocal and determined as we can possibly be.

The big three have not effectively challenged the issues, nor even presented them. Iraq. Patriot Act. NAFTA. The Constitution. To me, that is not democracy. I cannot support that which I cannot call democracy, or which shall provide mere scraps of it. :shrug:

[rAVES]

151. I'm sorry, what City where you Mayor of?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

164. Then how come in independent polls,

a majority of Americans say they want single payer health care and want out of Iraq? Is that La La Land?

[cboy4]

11. I love D.K.!!!

[moobu2]

13. No charisma

He isn’t electable as POTUS.
(I didn’t make the rules).

[fenriswolf]

21. so he's got your support?

[Breeze54]

23. Charisma is how you choose? - wtf? - How about the issues?!?

Where do you stand?

Are you for or against war? Workers Rights? A good economy? Human Rights?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

68. It doesn't matter where your candidate stands on the issues...

...if the sound of them speaking bores people to tears, death, or sleep.

[Skittles]

40. LOL - here's why

[rAVES]

152. Oh sweet Lowest common denominator voter.. how the GOP loves thee...

[and-justice-for-all]

14. I love DK....

But I do not think he is going to make it. I have nothing against Dk at all, hell of a guy.

[JVS]

20. Because he won't come clean about the toupee!

The people deserve the truth!

[fenriswolf]

22. LOL

[MADem]

28. He doesn't wear a toupee, does he? I thought he just overdid it with the JUST FOR MEN..

You know, so the "hotties" would like him and he could "stay in the game!"

[fenriswolf]

29. he's got all the game he needs right at his side.

[MADem]

38. If you're talking about his wife, he goes through those like crap through a goose

She's number three. Attractive young woman, but most people I know think she's gotta be batshit crazy, to be honest.

[Breeze54]

43. Most Americans are married at least twice... He's typical not outlandish.

Kucinich Bio - Personal life

http://www.answers.com/topic/dennis-kucinich

Kucinich was born in Cleveland, Ohio, on October 8, 1946, as the eldest of the seven children of Frank and Virginia Kucinich.<1> His father, a truck driver, was of Croatian ancestry; his Irish American mother, a homemaker.<2> Growing up, his family moved 21 times and Kucinich was often charged with the responsibility of finding apartments they could afford. However, this was not always possible and the family was occasionally forced to live out of their car. Kucinich is 5'7. <3> In school he played as a third-string quarterback on his varsity football team.<4> He attended Cleveland State University from 1967 to 1970.<5> In 1973, he graduated from Case Western Reserve University with both a BA and an MA in speech and communication.<6> Kucinich was baptized a Roman Catholic.<5> He is twice-divorced, with a daughter, Jackie, from his marriage to Sandra Lee McCarthy. He married his third wife, Elizabeth Harper (b. 1977), a British citizen, on August 21, 2005.

Recognition

In 2003, Kucinich was the recipient of the Gandhi Peace Award, an annual award bestowed by the Religious Society of Friends-affiliated organization Promoting Enduring Peace.<1>

More....

[MADem]

51. Not typical for my state--we have a low divorce rate!

And he's a little old for that wife of his, who's closer to his daughter's age than to his!

But he'd probably get the "Lucky Bastard" vote for that reason, alone...!

[Breeze54]

53. Your state IS my state! - LMAO!!!

I think, last I checked, that she is old enough to make her own decisions.

Have some respect. She is an adult.

It seems you think that possibly their marriage is based solely on sex.

Could it possibly be they have had a meeting of the minds?

What do you know about Elizabeth Kucinich and her work anyway, besides the fact she's tall and beautiful?

She's also very intelligent and you, being from MY state, should value that above all.

Elizabeth Kucinich



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Kucinich

Background

Elizabeth originates from North Ockendon in London, United Kingdom. In 1996 she went to Agra, India, to volunteer at one of Mother Teresa's homes for India's poorest children.<1> Upon earning her bachelor's and master's degrees at the University of Kent, she spent 16 months in a rural Tanzanian village and worked as an advocate for regional development.<1>

After leaving Tanzania, she volunteered with a British Red Cross refugee unit; earned a certificate in Peace Studies from Coventry University; and got a job as a fund-raiser for a seafarer's charity in London.<1> Her volunteer work often brought her to the House of Lords.<1> At that time she heard financial analyst Stephen Zarlenga speak about monetary reform. She was impressed and soon was hired to become Zarlenga's assistant at the Chicago-based American Monetary Institute.<1> That work took her and Zarlenga to Dennis Kucinich's office.<1>

She married Dennis Kucinich in 2005, in Congressman Kucinich's hometown of Cleveland, Ohio. She has her tongue pierced with a silver stud.<2> When asked during her husband's 2008 presidential campaign if it would be removed if she became First Lady of the United States, she replied that she considered it too much a part of her to do so.<3> The Sunday Times noted that one of her heroines is Diana, Princess of Wales, partly for her bringing "compassion back into public life".<4>

Education

For high school, she attended Coopers' Company and Coborn School located in Upminster, London, from 1989 to 1996.

She attended the University of Kent at Canterbury in the United Kingdom from 1997 to 2001 and graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Religious Studies and Theology and a Master's degree in International Conflict Analysis. Her thesis for her Master's was on "Conflict Resolution in World Politics".

[MADem]

61. Sure she's an adult, and so am I--and I think they look creepy together.

That's my opinion. YMMV. Don't have a cow over it. My opinion also is that she's probably got a screw loose, but in a benign way. My opinion is that she'll unload him in a few years, like the rest of them have.

If I am wrong about these guesses, I won't get all riled and upset and take them personally, and you really shouldn't either.

I have no idea what their marriage is based on--I am not a fly on their wall. Why would you imagine that I would think it is based on sex? Because of a comment I hear from any old bastard who sees the two of them together?

If the average young lady of her attributes finds a garden gnome a hot item, there's hope for a lot of poor slobs, I suppose. Maybe she needs glasses, how should I know?

I suspect that you are from MY state--I think I was here first!

It's nice to have advanced degrees. I have a few. However, they don't always indicate judgment, particularly in the conduct of one's personal life. I have an acquaintance with three PhD's on his third wife, and she's ready to toss him over the side. Can't say as I blame her, he's insufferable.

[defendandprotect]

124. Where are you? Is this a guaranteed martial bliss state -? Or . . .

is something else going on?

Can't afford divorce?
Religous state?

[Breeze54]

150. No, it isn't a guaranteed martial bliss state but

MA, last I heard (last Census) had the least divorces of all the states and "red" states had the most.

It was all over the net during Frist's and Delay's time, the Christian Coalition, etc.

[NikolaC]

75. Why Is She Crazy?

This world has become one stuck up, shallow place. Is it possible that the woman really loves him for who he is? He is attractive to her and that is what matters. Elizabeth is a brilliant person who has worked hard to help others. Someone like her probably does not care if she has a Ken doll on her arm if he is about as deep as a fishbowl. I love it, now people are crazy for loving someone who others feel are beneath them. Sad commentary on their "values".

[JVS]

30. Look at the pic in post #11 Now try to imagine that patch of darker longer hair gone.

You can envision the baldness

[MADem]

39. Usually, the tip off is an "insincere" part...but you can't tell by that pic

I dunno, I thought that was his own locks, just badly dyed...

[PassingFair]

27. A pacifist will never win the popular vote in America.

Even when he's right on all the issues.

[NoodleyAppendage]

32. The American public is NOT going to elect a short male ectomorph. Sorry...shallow, but true.

I like Kucinich a lot, but he's about 50 years too late to get to the WH. Prior to TV, he would have had a real fighting chance, but now that "all is visual" we will only elect a short male to the WH after about 200 years of social evolution.

J

[dysfunctional press]

34. he's a gun-grabber.

nt

[Breeze54]

36. BS!

Get your facts straight.

[dysfunctional press]

78. no...you get YOUR facts straight!

from kucinich's own website:

http://kucinich.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=62819

"Kucinich is currently drafting legislation that would ban the purchase, sale, transfer, or possession of handguns by civilians."

sounds like a gun-grabber to me.
and what makes it even MORE laughable- is that he bases his decision to grab handguns from civilians on the virginia tech shooting rampage- which wasn't even done with a handgun...:crazy:

[fenriswolf]

157. true as important as the second ammendment is

I forgot how many shooting deaths are in england.

[rAVES]

153. Why do you put NT in the Message box? do you understand why people use NT?

Why should we listen to you if you cant even understand that simple thing huh?

[ToeBot]

41. I'm not sure why you're complaining...

Every 4 years Kucinich gets to take his show on the road, get more media coverage than his occasional CPAN appearance. The lefty's get a candidate they can root for; with a horse in the race they can pretend the Democratic Party actually cares what they think, say or do. And more importantly the Democratic Party doesn't lose his supporters to a third party (or as is more likely, the realization of just how little the party actually thinks of them). At some point Dennis will concede and throw his support and supporters to the designate. See, everyone is happy and the system is blissfully stable - as long as some notable outsider doesn't run and monkeywrench the game.

[Breeze54]

45. "they can pretend the Democratic Party actually cares ?"

It isn't happening, dude.

Obama/Clinton Fighting for Swing Liberals
http://www.openleft.com/frontPage.do

:rofl:

Condescending remark and tone noted.

[TreasonousBastard]

42. I think he's a jerk. I know people who know him who...

think he's a jerk.

I don't care about his positions, even though most of them are well thought out and I would like to see them implemented. I care that he is not the one to even THINK about trying to get them enacted.

Come to think of it, he's been in Congress how long? And how many of his big plans have been enacted? Even reached the floor for a vote? Think he'll do better as President?

This is not the person I want to see guiding us through what will no doubt some some turbulent times in the near future. We've already had one asshole look Putin in the eye and see his soul.

(And, ummm, what cabinet position would Shirley MacLaine be up for?)

[2rth2pwr]

44. The Department of Ouija Boards.

[Breeze54]

46. I know people who know people who are friends of people who know people

that think he's right on and the rest of you are blathering idiots who don't
have enough sense to stop the race to hell by greedy americans and corporations.

"I don't care about his positions"
- TreasonousBastard -

Glad to hear you support more killing, bombing and dying in Iraq. :sarcasm:

You're name fits.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

165. Why do they think he's a jerk?

Is it his stand on issues? Or is it his taste in friends?

[leftofthedial]

47. CNN, ABC and NBC have convinced me that he's a crackpot

worthy of ignoring


:sarcasm:




the mind boggles. the only actual Democrat to run since Raygun. :shrug:

it's the capitalist corporate oligarchy marginalizing those they fear most. What I dont' understand is why they haven't just killed him like they did all the other progressive leaders.

[Breeze54]

49. He's had pleny of

death threats. He's very brave to continue his fight, imho.

[KharmaTrain]

50. He Ran A Crappy Campaign

I expected more out of DK this time around. He'd already run in '04 and had cultivated a loyal following. In the 4 years afterwards...nada. He let his organization fall apart while others kept their intact...and he then failed to tap into the growing netroots of not just money (which would have helped a great deal) but also foot soldiers in making him a far more visible and viable candidate this year.

Bottom line is Dennis for all his good ideas, has no accomplishments to back them up. The big thing I'm looking for this year is someone who not only talk the talk but can walk the walk...can build the coalitions and twist the arms to get bills passed and truly lead a country that is in desperate need of it. DK hasn't shown he gets along well with others or that he has the political skills to manuever in the sticky waters ahead. He speaks of many good things, but right now he's a luxuary this country can't afford.

[bean fidhleir]

70. "build the coalitions and twist the arms to get bills passed"

You've heard the saying about how it's difficult to make someone understand the value of change when their continued wealth and privilege depends on them not understanding? Well, look at what segment of the population his "fellow Democrats" have been busy taking care of. Hint: it ain't us.

[Horse with no Name]

52. I love Kucinich but I think he is too radical

Let me explain what I mean by radical.
There is no way in hell this country is going to do a 360 degree turn.
Change has to happen in increments.
If we are fortunate to get Edwards in and have a successful Edwards presidency--who is more to the center but still espouses progressive values...then AND ONLY then would a Kucinich presidency be likely. The country has to be brought back from the hard far right first before Dennis would ever have a chance.
That is the sad truth. Dennis stands for a lot of what I believe. He just isn't viable until we can neutralize the Presidency.

[Breeze54]

54. "Dennis stands for a lot of what I believe." ~ But you just don't have any courage...

That's so sad..... :(

[Horse with no Name]

60. Not what I said but nice try

I WISH Dennis was electable, but he isn't.:( Those are the facts no matter how you try to spin it. We are too far right to go that far left without a lot of resistance. Now if we had an out and out Civil War (which is probably what NEEDS to happen) then all bets are off.
However, I do believe he is a Rennaisance Man and if we can wrestle the country out of the jaws of fascism...then I do believe that at some point in our foreseeable future, Dennis will have a chance at the Presidency.

[bean fidhleir]

149. He's electable. He's already WON more elections than the other three have even been in

I haven't verified my perception, but I believe he's won more elections against GOP incumbents than the other three have even been in.

He's truly electable. If he really weren't, there wouldn't be as much effort being made to play him down. They'd treat him the way they treat the cab drivers and other non-politicians. But he's a holder of a national office who's been the elected co-chair of the largest caucus in Congress and has proven over and over that he can take GOP opponents to the cleaners, given a fair go. So they have to pretend really hard that he's a nobody.

[bean fidhleir]

69. I think you might be confused.

Who would want the country to do a 360 degree turn?

[riverdale]

87. what the hell is a 360 turn?

If the Democratic candidate ran on a platform of doing a 180 turn (opposite of everything Bush has ever done), I think we'd walk away with that election.

[glowing]

104. So you mean 180.. 360 would bring us full circle..

[defendandprotect]

125. If we don't make radical and immediate changes, neither we nor the planet will be here -- !!!

And we need to have the public understand that --

The country is always ready for radical change --- nationalize oil/electric cars, for instance ---
single-payer health care --- it is the fanatical right-wing among us which stops it.

Any populist message is being sidelined now by corporate-media ---
and an uninformed public isn't protesting it.

[caseycoon]

59. Danged if I know!

He's certainly the best on the issues.
Of course that's why he has been so marginalized. He REALLY wants change.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

63. THIS ATTITUDE from his supporters and campaign. n/t

[fenriswolf]

90. You

stop with the one liners and engage in an actual discussion about him. Its getting rediculas how many times i only see you talking kucinich down and will not actual discuss or explain.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

139. This from someone...

...who posts a one line OP asking what the fuck is wrong with people who don't support Kucinich. You want to read my substantive posts on this issue? Make a donation to DU, use the advanced search feature and go look for yourself. I've made plenty of substantive posts on why I do not support his campaign, but I'm not going to do your homework for you, especially since you seem to think there's something "wrong" with me because I don't support him.

[fenriswolf]

148. i wanted some discussion on the subject

this is the best way to get attention. None of my posts on here have been one liners. It's just every time i try to engage you in conversation you always reply very tersly. I'm sorry i don't have a star but money is kind of tight. as for homework I don't know what your talking about. Sorry you took my post personally but i would love to hear actual gripes about kucinich if you have them.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

154. I will try to dig up some of my old posts for you.

Most of them can be distilled down to: He hasn't even bothered to build a volunteer/grassroots organization that can actually campaign for him, didn't even have people canvassing in the early primary states, allowed his 2004 organization to fall apart and failed to make even a feeble attempt to maintain that momentum or build on it for 2008, couldn't even be bothered to get a haircut and buy a decent suit, has never even attempted to win a statewide election, effects a holier-than-thou attitude that turns people off, appears unable to even file his campaign paperwork on time, and has an extremely thin record of tangible accomplishments in the House. And as for his supporters I am completely turned off by their continued attempts to guilt people into voting for him. I have said all this before, with much verbosibation in many posts in many threads, as have many others.

[fenriswolf]

155. very succinct and valid points and some are matters of opinion

but I disagree :)

[Freddie Stubbs]

64. If he cannot run a competent primary campaign, it is unlikely that he

can run a competent general election campaign. We don't need a nominee who will be overwhelmed by the Republicans.

[deacon]

65. He deserves the vote, but if you don't want hillary or obama, he's not the one that will prevent it.

And Edwards is most opposite of bush, that still has a chance. DK is true American, something bush can't say or anyone in his administration can say, but obviously obama and clinton don't fill that void at all.

[Voltaire99]

66. Face it. Most Dems are Hillaryites.

And all that that sad reality entails.

Dennis?

Sooner ask them to vote for a Martian. Because that's exactly how they view him and his emphasis on economic justice and peace.

The Boomer generation is on its way out (soon to be preoccupied with various old-age maladies and the well-deserved results of its legendarily poor economic planning). We'll be saddled with their rancid, unprincipled politics for some time to come. They'll also try to tax our asses off for their care and upkeep. How does that sound? Fun?

Their interests, in short, are not our interests. I see the party going through more spasms, at least until it can pass this demographic like the gallstone it is.

[Echo In Light]

71. Or, Face it, most dems aren't actual liberals/lefties, even though the system WANTS them to believe

They are based on which corporatist/media persona they're coaxed into "liking."

[tomp]

158. how about we all work on this together...

...instead of you blaming baby boomers en masse? whatever generation you belong to hasn't come up with the answers yet either. it's about class not about generation. you could learn something from a boomer.

[BearSquirrel2]

67. I like Dennis alot

I like Dennis alot, though he's a little left of me and I think his "department of peace" is a bit loopy as this is the job of the State Department.

What sinks him for me is that he only got 4% support in the Michigan primary when Edwards and Obama weren't even on the ballot. He lost to "none of the above".

[bean fidhleir]

146. He "lost to 'none of the above'" because he's relentlessly marginalized

Most people still (Goddess knows why!) trust the newspapers and the twittering classes on tv. So when said twits treat DK like a nonentity -DESPITE his record as a fighter, DESPITE his record of personal sacrifice for the good of the people, DESPITE his record of going against corporate control, DESPITE his record of winning against the GOP (he's WON more elections than the other three have even been IN), and DESPITE -oh yes, especially despite- his policies for change, ...then ordinary people, trusting the twits, write him off too.

You can see the same thing being done to Edwards, though less viciously.

To claim that people ignore DK for sensible reasons implies that you think people don't really want single-payer, peace, better pensions, et lengthy cetera. Or they don't want them enough to vote for the only person who's tubthumping for them. Or that they think they've a better chance of getting them by voting for 'none of the above'. Sorry, but that makes no sense.

[Jamastiene]

74. Don't have one.

I plan on voting for Kucinich. I'm making up a new signature picture now as I type this. :patriot:

[nonconformist]

76. Because he's ineffective, frankly.

He can't run a decent campaign, and he hasn't had any real influence in Congress. We need someone who can get some stuff done, not just someone who can say the right thing but be completely marginalized.

[Marrah_G]

77. The ability to lead- Either you have it or you don't

Since almost no one is following him then I would say- He doesn't have it.

[Echo In Light]

82. No. The mainline media isn't instructing people to follow him

[fenriswolf]

91. oh he's leading

what I want to know is why our representatives are not following. He has bills for impeachment and universal healthcare on the table. It's what the people want. So why arn't our congress critters signing on? It's not because of who drafted it, its because of the topics themselves. we need people in congress who want to do the right thing.

[Marrah_G]

112. I think you miss what I was saying

You can attempt to lead people in the right direction but if you do not have leadership skills (often you just are born with them) and no one follows then you cannot be effective as a leader.

I am NOT a good leader. I am , however, a very effective behind the scenes person. Everyone has things they are good at. Not everyone is good at the things they want to be good at.

If he were a good leader people would be racing to follow him.

[book_worm]

81. the problem with DK is he can't even win his home state in a primary

I think he came in fourth in '04 in Ohio and didn't even carry his house district in that primary. He keeps running for president but can't expand his small left wing base. I would say it's even smaller this time. He has never proved he can win in a statewide race in Ohio. He had two chances in '06 to run for Governor or Senator and he didn't. Yet he keeps running for president and he must know he can't win but he does it for a platform.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

84. I used to think he was OK, then he brought up the words "Ron Paul"

[fenriswolf]

92. look up some more articles on that

you'll see he was being cordial nothing else.

[EstimatedProphet]

85. Kucinich killed my dad

I'll never vote for him! NEVER!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

166. details, please

if you don't mind?

[robcon]

86. Kucinich is too stupid and naive to be president.

His Dept of Peace proposal on his site gives it away. He is dangerously unprepared to be president, IMO.

[fenriswolf]

95. naive?

when we have most of our current dept's corrupted and backwards as hell what is wrong with a section of the administration that is focused on resolving issues through diplomatic means? or is that a stupid idea? lets just bomb the heck outta everything then.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

88. Inept and ineffective.

I don't care if he writes the entire text of the next democratic platform, it doesn't change the fact that's he's all words and no action.

[fenriswolf]

93. no action?

he is the only one spear heading impeachment. He is the only one who is consistantly voting to not fund the war. He consistantly takes stances that ostrasize him and make him "outlandish" if that isn't action (ie taking unpopular stances against all odds) i dont know what is.

[onenote]

98. probably more accurate to say "no accomplishments" rather than "no action"

[fenriswolf]

101. it takes people behind you for accomplishments

as far as I can tell kucinich can grab the real democratic people to sign onto his bills but everyone else shys away. He may not have accomplished alot (except raise awarness of his issues which is an accomplishment in itself) but you have to ask why he hasnt accomplished anything. I would love to see HR 676 pass, wouldnt you? I keep asking feinstein why she hasnt signed on and I never get a reply, same with cheney impeachment. oh well no one wants to impeach cheney i guess.

[onenote]

108. and if you can't get people "behind you", are lack leadership skills

That's DK's biggest flaw. Politics is the art of compromise. I know it may not seem that way after what we've been through since 2000, but its still more the rule than the exception. DK speaks for a wing of the Democratic party, but he has never shown the ability to connect that wing with other portions of the party to actually move something forward. We can stand up and salute him for opposing the S-CHIP bill because it didn't go far enough, but in the end, even he recognized the need for something to pass. Incrementalism may seem like a bad thing, but its often the only way progress is made and DK is just not built for incremental steps, it seems.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

106. Thank you. "No accomplishments" is what I meant.

And he can't run a campaign!

[cgrindley]

94. No one on planet earth would vote for a gnome

He is not attractive enough for the typical voter to support. People are really really shallow.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

167. That's how we wound up with Ronald Reagan. n/t

[MagsDem]

96. 2 reasons

1) I grew up in Cleveland, and for as long as Dennis was in politics there he acted like the boy king, and was kinda a nut. I don't think he could ever win a statewide race, even.

2) His proposals are all unrealistic. I admire them, but unless we had like 75 out of 100 senate seats none of them would ever pass.

[fenriswolf]

97. so what did he do that was so bad?

He might have been in the limelight alot but what did he do that was actually bad policy? did he make bad decisions. What was good about his being mayor. The only thing i ever hear is about his fight with the banks and I cannot find any other articles about how his mayorship went.

[MagsDem]

100. Honestly, I'm too old to remember the details

But he couldn't work with folks to get anything done. He was like a little hitler, and couldn't bring anyone to his side of the table. Even when he was right, like about MUNY light, he couldn't get folks to support his proposals because he was just so dictatorial about everything. He was pretty universally disliked. I was actually quite surprised when he was elected congressman well after I had moved away, because he had practically been ridden out on a rail when he was in local Cleveland politics.

He has good ideas, just no talent at implementing them.

[fenriswolf]

102. thanks for being honest

so he is stubborn and believes in principals but at least their was no policy action that you didn't like. No corruption charge, bribary. At least he was an honest guy with firm beliefs (which I'm sure was about helping people) I agree he might be very hard to work with but at least he doesnt sell out.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

107. DK motto - "My way or the highway."

He doesn't live in reality. Change happens in increments, and he settles for nothing less. We might not like that. He might not like that. But it's how politics works.

With VERY few exceptions, all change is incremental.

He is a LOUSY politician, and would make a lousy president.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

168. He ran for state office, I believe

and was a state rep and senator in the early 90s.

You don't think a majority of Americans want out of Iraq? A majority don't want single payer health insurance?

[Individualist]

99. The sheeple obey the teevee

instead of voting in their best interests.

I voted for DK Friday.

[TZ]

103. The last thing we need is 4 more years of gridlock

Kucinich doesn't even get along well with a lot of Dems, let alone any Republican. He would get ZIP legislation passed in Congress.
Its kind of important to have someone who will work with Congress to get things. That unfortunately means compromise sometimes, and I just don't see Kucninich as flexible enough to moderate any of his positions in order to get things done. This is not necessarily a bad attitude in a Congressional Rep..but in an President..I think we have had more than enough of that from Chimpy.
Just because Kucinich might share some of my values (although he does hold certain beliefs that make me VERY uncomfortable as well) doesn't mean I want a progressive version of Bush.

[theboss]

105. Because he can't govern

I agree with a lot of his positions, but there is no chance that anything he advocates becomes policy. He would have to be 100 times more persuasive than he is.

Everything I heard and read about his time in Cleveland is that when you have a conversation with Kucinich, you actually want to do the opposite of what he advocates.

Lining up on positions is not the be all and end all. I agree with me 100 percent. And I shouldn't be president.

[NashVegas]

109. I'll Be Blunt

Because I'm long past the days where I'm going to be gentle with Kucinich for President supporters:

Dennis is a dork.

He's not even a hot dork.

He's the kind of dork that you would have wanted to tape to the toilet in high school.

And that's why he's never going to be elected POTUS.

[fenriswolf]

110. just like carter right?

[midlife_mo_Jo]

115. Carter was actually very likeable

Even when people went to vote against him in the second term ("Reagan democrats"), they still liked him.

Unfortunately, DK doesn't even have a likability factor.

[fenriswolf]

119. he was still considered somewhat of a "dork"

or at least my parents figured so.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

120. But he could still connect with people

People genuinely liked him. DK just doesn't have that factor.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

169. Thanks very much for being honest

I guess what you are saying then is that Americans will only support the "pretty people" whose ideas are simply that-ideas that change with political expediency.

[dave123williams]

111. Why not Kucinich? Why not ask, "Why not Elrond"?

He's...how do you say this delicately....not telegenic.

Sorry, it matters.

[Ediacara]

114. He's a woo-woo

Case closed.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ediacara]

127. Nice personal attack!

You asked a question, and I answered as parsimoniously as I could. I could have gone on and on about how he's an intransigent twerp with no leadership skills and zero clout among the actual party leadership. That along with some good ideas, he has some truly idiotic ones; and he's just as opportunistic a liar as any other politician (he claimed for some time he was the only Democrat running in 2004 that was against the war when in truth he was one of FIVE).

But having read this thread, I can see you're more interested in shaming those who don't like Dennis for legitimate reasons, rather than listening to what those reasons are.

Bye now!

[fenriswolf]

128. thanks for actually starting a good discussion

sorry you cant stick around.

[Ediacara]

129. No response? How typical!

[fenriswolf]

130. oh i thought you were leaving

as far as democratic leadership is concerned (this is the same leadership that impeachment is off the table with right?) they can kiss my grits, the leadership talks the talk (sometimes, very often not) but does not walk the walk. Dennis promotes alot of the ideals i hold dear and alot. Which ideas do you disagree with?

not sure about his 2004 comment, I know that comment is prevelant today if you look at voting records, was he the only candidate who had voted against the IWR and voted against funding the war? Mostly what you posted was how you personally felt and although that was what I was looking for it doesnt make for a good discussion.

[Ediacara]

131. The Department of Peace already exists, they just call it the Department of State

That's a stupid idea. In addition to lying about Dean, Clark, Moseley-Braun, and Sharpton, re: the war, his sudden shift to pro-Choice is hilariously opportunistic.

And you really do have to face the fact that despite being a presidential candidate twice, and now in the majority, he's still nothing more than a backbencher; therefore has no clout within his own party leadership. I'm not a fan of Pelosi's or of Reid's (good Christ why are we stuck with him!?), but come on! If he wants to be taken seriously he needs to start walking the walk; all he ever does is talk about this impossible thing and that absurd thing, and actually does nothing.

And he's a woo-woo. Even if he didn't have the enormous problems concerning his leadership skills and ideas, he would still not get my primary vote for that reason alone.

[fenriswolf]

132. what is a woo woo? and what absurd ideas does he have?

our state department is who funds blackwater great job at peace they are doing so far.

As far as pro choice/pro life is concerned he has already stated why he has switched and you might want to take a second look at al gore then who did practically the same thing.

Not really sure about the 2004 election as I was stationed overseas most of the time and would have to research those alligations that you claim kucinich made about the other candidates at the time.

I like kucinich just for the fact that he is not walking the walk. Right now we have to choose between 3 people who are more or less running on the same platforms even though their rehtoric might sound different. Kucinich talks straight, puts the bills on the table and represents the commen working man 100% of the time not just during elections. He has always been a statesmen and has always been a "clean" representative of the people. Thats who I want for president. A man beholding to no one and is willing to do what is right even though it might not be popular with the other people who help make this countries decisions.

oh and his ideas are right for the majority of the people. Their are none of his ideas that I think are "radical left" ideas because a majority of the people believe in them. universal health care, education, no war, etc, etc.

[Ediacara]

133. Like I've said, I like some of his ideas

1) Despite what the State Dept actually does, its actual mission is identical to what the Department of Peace is meant for. Dumb idea.

2) Gore really became pro-choice literally days before he announced he was running in 2000? Despite years and years of dogged, uncompromising pro-life votes and rhetoric?

3) Kucinich claimed with a straight face that all of the other Democrats running in 2004 were for the war but him. 100% false.

4) Kucinich's ideas can be great (and some of them are), but the fact that he's had absolutely zero success implementing a single one of them (even now that he's in the majority) tells me he'll have a lot of trouble doing anything if, miracle of miracles, he's elected president.

5) Woo-woo is a blanket term (not of endearment) concerning a great deal of non-religious irrational beliefs. Kucinich is up to his eyeballs in woo.

[fenriswolf]

134. interesting points

1) state dept is not doing now what his proposed dep of peace is supposed to do, and even if the two dep purpose are identical and all that changes is the name whats the big deal? sounds like a great idea just so long as its purpose mirrors its name.

2) not comparing the time frame from switching a frame of mind to election time. But I am comparing that people can forgive a person for changing viewpoint, especially if its from pro life to choice. Basically this is the only item of contention that people can try to call kucinich fake. the difference is, is that his explanation is sound, plausible and his reason. if people want to think he did it for a campaign the only fact they have is their "choice" to believe what they believe.
(some info on gore and abortion) http://www.debatethis.org/gore/abortion/

3) don't have time to look up your claim but I'll let your point rest.

4) the powers between a congressman and president are very different. if elected kucinich would
a) be a lot more capable in implementing the things he is
trying to do now with the added power and resources that come
with being POTUS
b) our representatives would no longer hesitate in accepting
his policies because he was no longer a "fringe" congressmen
point is though he is trying to do what you and I would love to happen, why everyone else is not following the "will of the people" i do not know. Wouldn't you love single payer universal health care, end to the war, reestablishing trade laws, election and voting reform, education reform, etc, etc. Don't say they can't be done either. If we can make thousands of billionaires in this country we can certainly accomplish those things if we have an honest man in office.

5) woo-woo =/ hope, truth, justice, true freedom.

[Ediacara]

135. woo-woo refers to astrology and "new age" belief systems

ie, non-religious irrational beliefs.

[fenriswolf]

136. right i understood the first time

hope, truth, justice, true freedom are not irrational beliefs.

[Ediacara]

137. That's not what I was talking about and you know it

Are you this obfuscatory in person, or is it just an internet affectation?

[fenriswolf]

138. you responded like I didnt understand the term

after you just explained it. I responded in turn telling you I understood what the term meant and that how I applied it does not make those values seem like an irrational belief. I'm being candid not obfuscatory.

in plain I'm voting for my values not what i think the "middle" value of america is or whatever that might mean. I want the war to end now, I want nafta ended now, I want people to stop dying because they can't pay a bill, I want my son to be able to go to college without putting himself into 100,000 dollars in debt. I want these things. I am willing to work hard for these things even though I am working as hard as I can. I know most of america wants these things and are willing to work on it. Kucinich is the one saying he will work his hardest to make it happen. The others hem and haw, they flip flop on the details and then try to divert our attention. Kucinich speaks plainly and honestly and his every action is one i want taken. This is why I am for kucinich and can't understand why other people don't like him let alone those who won't vote for him.

[Ediacara]

140. You responded implying you thought woo meant hope truth, justice, etc

So ya, are you always this obfuscatory, or is it just a 'net thing?

[fenriswolf]

141. this symbol "=/" means not equal to fyi

[Ediacara]

144. actually, "=/=" means "not equal to"

See, it's this thing: ≠, written out in three keystrokes. I just assumed that =/ was a typo on your part. Or a strange emoticon.

And as you've completely derailed the conversation and failed to address anything with anything more than obfuscation.... I guess we're done here.

[fenriswolf]

145. hehe k ill take my obsfucating butt elsewhere maybe to a

conversation that can come up with points that will stick. sorry i didnt type ≠ I didnt have an ascii chart handy and figured you might take me to be intelligent enough to not mistype something as simple as "=". Ill just go obfuscate a different thread LOL. Maybe present my mistyping self on a thread with people who havnt fallen in line with our own parties rehtoric hahaha.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

170. In other words,

you won't support anyone whose spirituality is different than your own.

[Ediacara]

171. Ya that's it

I'm totally intolerant of people who believe very stupid things. :eyes:

[flvegan]

118. Because standing up for your convictions is hard.

No, that's not my excuse. I'm a die-hard Kucinich supporter, but I think that people largely take the easy route. I also think that many folks don't really want that kind of change. God forbid they don't have 10 things to bitch and moan about every day.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

121. Actually, it's easier to "stand up" for your principles than it is to get down in the trenches

and fight for incremental change, and most changes in government do come incrementally.

[redqueen]

122. My "excuse" is that his campaign staff are morons.

And I want the most progressive person I can get in the GE.

I dedicated myself to his campaign completely last time around.

[cobalt1999]

142. Nothing wrong with me.

I want a president that will be effective and get this country out of the ditch it is in. We can't afford to screw this choice up. Kucinich would be the least effective and most unable to pass this changes of any president in the last 100 years.

What's wrong with you that you can't understand there are valid and important reasons people turn away from him?

[judy]

143. No excuse...I am voting for him

And I appreciate that he leads a campaign, even if he doesn't win,to keep the ideas alive.
Ideas such as pulling the troops AND the profiteers out of Iraq, (no one else mentions the profiteers, KB&R, etc.), restoring the Constitution, rolling back the Patriot Act, Universal Single Payer Health Care, etc. his ideas are precise, pragmatic and concrete, plus based on values that I respect such as Peace and Non-Violence.

Thank you Dennis!!

[PeaceNikki]

147. 1) His voting record on women's rights

See: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/PeaceNikki/1

2) His inability to compromise on important issues. See SCHIP.

3) His total inelectability

4) His general "my way or fuck you" attitude.

5) He entertained the idea of running on a ticket with Ron Paul :wtf:

[Stop Cornyn]

156. He lost me (former strong supporter) with his "Ron Paul for VP" talk and Iowa endorsement of Obama

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

159. Kucinich is my candidate

He is the one who has been consistent in walking his talk, his programs make the most sense, and he's a fighter.

[robbedvoter]

162. Not speaking up for Gravel. Iowa endorsement of Obama. Still considering him though

2004 endorsement of Edwards in Iowa (IWR sponsor, running on war at the time).

Not sure I won't vote for him though