Why doesn't Obama want NV teachers to caucus?

[OzarkDem]

Is he anti-education or something?

[Joe the Revelator]

1. You ,apparently, completely misunderstood the issues

If you're going to spin, make it good.

[OzarkDem]

7. No, its pretty clear

The teachers union in NV are not allowed to have a special caucus for their groups, only casino workers. When they tried to get permission to have their own special caucus, Obama went ballistic and tried to distort it into Hillary not allowing casino workers to vote.

Why doesn't Obama just agree to support the teachers and the whole matter would be settled. I realize he's said some bad things bout public education in the past, but he really should consider his bias against public education could hurt his support with voters.

[tammywammy]

9. When did Obama go "ballistic"?

Link?

And why didn't the Teachers Union complain when they were setting this up?

[OzarkDem]

12. Judging from the frothing at the mouth of his supporters here

along with all the hysterical news stories aboutit, this must have caused quite an uproar in his camp.

[tammywammy]

17. So no link of him going ballistic then

Just as I thought.


And supporters on DU don't equate campaigns.

[sandnsea]

18. Disenfranchising voters ought to cause an uproar

The state law is that parties set their caucus rules. The rules were fine when Hillary was winning. When she lost the culinary vote, suddenly the rules weren't fine. People who support these tactics are no Democrats I want to know.

[dkf]

23. Hello. Teachers are OFF on Saturdays.

Why would they caucus at their work place?

[OzarkDem]

28. See my post above

His objections are showing favoritism to one group of workers - those in the casinos.

[Bishop Rook]

35. Because the workers in the casinos NEED the at-large caucuses

The teachers don't because they already have the day off.

And nobody's trying to prevent the teachers from having their own special at-large caucus. It's the teachers who are trying to prevent the culinary workers from getting theirs. Let the teachers have one if they really want, though it would be silly to do it since the caucuses are on Saturday.

[dkf]

44. Yeah why would anyone want to drive to their work place when they can

caucus near their house?

Gas isn't cheap you know!

If they want to drive and be all together then who cares? I don't.

[OzarkDem]

53. And others who work on Saturdays don't?

[dkf]

59. I thought anyone that is working near the casino caucuses can

do it there?

Am I mistaken?

[tammywammy]

64. Yes, everyone who works within 2.5 miles

Of the Strip can caucus at the at-large sites. It's not just for casino workers.

[ursi]

68. TEACHERS VOTE! THEY GET SATURDAYS OFF! The question is why don't teachers

want casino employees to vote? You know, taxpayers? Jeezus.

[cloudythescribbler]

60. Just a pile of disingenuous Obama-bashing; completely distorts the issues in NV case

When they tried to get permission to have their own special caucus, Obama went ballistic and ...

This is totally disingenuous, characteristic of the way that Obama-bashers swarm with their disinformation extensively on DU.

First, the teacher's union had NINE FULL MONTHS to raise an objection to the caucusing system, but ONLY brought this suit when the CWU endorsed Obama. Pointing out this travesty, and what a travesty it is, HARDLY constitutes "going ballistic" on Obama's part.

The teachers are just seeking permission to have their own special caucus at this 11th hour, something that a suit 6+ months ago could probably have easily accomodated, indeed the NV Democratic Party probably would have been happy to accomodate them when they set the rules up in MARCH, had a major public issue been made THEN.

This is about a number of friends and allies of HRC (outlined in detail in several other threads on this subject) who have control of one of the major teachers' unions in NV trying to block the caucuses that make it much more convenient for the Culinary Workers' Union (CWU) to caucus. It seeks to PREVENT their caucusing, and not merely the (peculiarly belated) request to add a caucus of their own.

Note that the work sites in question are supposed to be where there are in excess of FOUR THOUSAND employees. There probably aren't a total of 4000 teachers who will be working that Saturday with the caucuses even spread over the huge state of Nevada!

Incidentally, if the teachers are not collected together at one locale in huge numbers working that Saturday, where would the hold their own special CAUCUS (singular -- not caucusES)? Think about this logistics issue and then think about what the OP is trying to peddle

[mrdemocrat78]

71. You're missing it

Hillary asked the culinary union to wait to endorse obama before the primary, so they waited. then after the primary she called them again, but they told her no. as soon as she heard, she sent the teachers union out to preempt the culinary endorsement.

Kind of what happened in iraq. A... preemptive strike.

[Evergreen Emerald]

82. she has so much power! Did she make the sun rise?

[Orangepeel]

2. is this a joke? n/t

[MadBadger]

3. I just nominated you for a DUmbzy!

[OzarkDem]

8. Stop drinking the kool aid and look at the facts

[cloudythescribbler]

66. Kool Aid? This portrayal of the NV case issues is pure horseshit! nt

[Big Blue Marble]

4. You have a sense of humor!

That is pretty scarce around here these days.

[Hello_Kitty]

5. How many teachers work on Saturday?

And why weren't the teachers concerned about this, oh say, a year ago when the at-large caucus arrangement was being worked out? They got worried about being "disenfranchised" all of a sudden like, didn't they? Right around the time a certain somebody was endorsed by a union that was supposed to endorse a certain somebody else.

[OzarkDem]

10. Probably quite a few

don't you imagine all those casino workers have to put their children in nursery schools?

Don't you imagine a lot of teachers work weekends when coaching sports or working with students on extra curricular activities?

What about all the other people who work on Saturdays, I would imagine there are quite a few in Las Vegas. Why don't they get special caucuses? Why are casino workers entitled to special treatment?

[Hello_Kitty]

27. Nursery schools? Uh, I think you mean daycare. Nice try.

As for all those other workers in Las Vegas, they too can go to the at-large caucuses. They're not just for casino workers or union members. They set them up because Saturday is the busiest day of the week at the state's largest revenue generator. Those people weren't going to be able to caucus at all without them. Which I guess would be fine now with Hillary uh, I mean the "teachers".

[OzarkDem]

33. How do you know?

When I worked, I put my children in schools, I didn't park them with babysitters. Are you saying casino workers don't care about who takes care of their children?

What about all the other people who work on Saturdays? Don't they have a right to special caucuses also?

[Hello_Kitty]

41. On Satuday? Bullshit.

And how the fuck is putting your kids in daycare while you work an indication of not caring about them? Elitist. You probably never worked a Saturday in your life, judging from your ignorance.

[OzarkDem]

45. Typical Obama supporter

attack, attack, attack.

[Hello_Kitty]

50. Actually I'm an Edwards supporter right now

Considering throwing my support to Obama if Hillary keeps this shit up.

And you're full of shit.

[OzarkDem]

54. Yeah, right

[cali]

76. Up is down and black is white according to you

you bash Obama and his supporters constantly, and you think YOU deserve some special treatment? Hahaha. Not gonna happen. Your OP wasn't only bashing, it displayed ignorance. Of course you're going to get called on that. It just looks weak when you accuse others of attacking when you do so much of it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

74. If those daycares (not schools) are within 2.5 miles of the casino caucus

site, they CAN show up at them and caucus there. That's what they are there for.

[Egnever]

6. Um the caucus is on a saturday

Not too many teachers workin on a saturday here.

[OzarkDem]

11. Read post above

[Hello_Kitty]

29. The OP believes that nursery schools in Nevada are open on Saturday

Oh yeah, and coaches, yeah that's it, all the teachers working as coaches too! :eyes:

[OzarkDem]

38. In Las Vegas? Probably so

Its not your typical town when it comes to work schedules, you know.

[Hello_Kitty]

49. Yeah, I'm sure people have their kids in school in the middle of the night too.

:eyes:

If more than 1% of teachers are working on Saturday I'll be very surprised.

[sandnsea]

13. Why doesn't he want NV doctors to caucus? Or police? Or pilots?

Or anybody else who works on Saturday at noon? Oh yeah. That's not the issue.

[OzarkDem]

15. Apparently they're not worthy

either that or they haven't endorsed him.

[sandnsea]

20. No. That's the way every caucus is

Some people have to work. The made accommodations for employers of 4,000 or more. Everybody else is going to have to do what people always have to do to vote, try to get time off.

[OzarkDem]

34. Sounds like discrimination n/t

[Barack_America]

26. Oddly of the professions you listed, TEACHERS are the LEAST likely to work...

...on Saturdays at noon.

The caucus fight simply has nothing to do with them. Doubtful they'd even be participating in this lawsuit if Hillary didn't have clout with their union.

[Hello_Kitty]

32. Ah, but the teacher's union was MOST likely to have Hillary allies in it.

Yeah, it's funny how none of the occupations that actually would be affected were stepping up to challenge the caucuses.

[Barack_America]

63. Precisely! And..excellent avatar! n/t

[cloudythescribbler]

67. No, it isn't the issue -- the caucuses were set up 9 months ago, and none of these groups complained

about it, and indeed, most of them (other than one particular union many of whose leaders have been extensively documented on other "hysterical" DU threads to have HRC ties) still haven't complained. Remember that one aspect of these caucuses are the large number of people working CONCENTRATED in particular areas. No, it isn't a perfect setup, but those seeking to change the rules ONLY AFTER the CWU endorsed Obama over Clinton are DISenfranchising voters not ENfranchising anyone.

This OP is merely aimed at trying to switch the blame for disenfranchisement over to Obama.

Note, that if this case has such merit, why doesn't Hillary Clinton or Rory Reid, son of Harry and a high-up muck-a-muck in her campaign actually ENDORSE this scandalous suit? They seek to benefit from it but don't want to be publicly identified with this scam? These HRC folk (including HRC herself) must know something that Ozark at least pretends not to notice.

[OzarkDem]

14. No answers?

I thought so. Its always different when its your ox getting gored, no?

[thoughtcrime1984]

16. You reflect poorly on Mr. Edwards

Very poorly.

[OzarkDem]

21. By pointing out the fallacy of your arguments

or are you just afraid to have an honest discussion?

[thoughtcrime1984]

46. Fallacy of what arguments?

Why be an asshole? You just can't help it apparently.

[Barack_America]

19. Why don't you want to read and think about issues before you post?

Do you hate teachers?

How is Obama doing anything to prevent teachers from caucusing? He didn't set up the current caucus system and he isn't a part of the recent lawsuit, either. He is completely uninvolved.

[OzarkDem]

25. Members of the teachers union

were the ones who objected to his showing favoritism to casino workers, no?

His campaign has made a lot of nasty accusations about their action, hasn't he?

[Barack_America]

30. Yes, but only because Hillary has clout with the teachers union...

She probably couldn't persuade any of the more relevant unions to participate in the lawsuit.

[OzarkDem]

37. How do you know?

What about workers who don't belong to unions, do they not have rights?

[Bread and Circus]

57. No. Actually this lawsuit was instigated by Union leaders, partisan to Clinton.

You are either being outright purposefully obtuse, or this is the biggest hoax/troll thread I've read on DU in a long time.

[RaleighNCDUer]

75. HE is not showing favoritism to anybody.

He has nothing to do with it.

The suit was filed by hillary supporters against the NV caucus, which had set up these arrangements months ago. When the arrangements were made, no one had any idea if Obama would even still be in the race, or if he was just a flash in the pan and the battle would be between Hillary and Edwards (or Biden, or Richardson, or whoever).

The reason his campaign is objecting is because democrats who work on or near the strip WILL be disenfranchised without these casino caucus stations. No matter WHO they support. The whole idea was to get DEMOCRATS to caucus.

[Chomskyite]

22. Another ridiculous snipe

I'm an Edwards supporter myself. But this is as ridiculous as it gets. Please do something better with your time, ozarkdem. The candidates' differences on the issues are enough in themselves to keep you busy.

[CoffeeCat]

24. Wow. Just....WOW...

Hillary Clinton left my state in a huff, because she came in third.

One of her major criticisms of the Iowa caucus was that "shift workers
are not able to participate".

So...here we have a concerted effort in Nevada, to do just that---help
shiftworkers and those who work during the caucus--to take time off
and caucus.

Now, her surrogates are doing her dirty work and suing people to stop
the spread of democracy.

Let it be known...if you come in third in a caucus---disenfranchising
shift workers is BAD. However, if you are caucusing in a state where
these shift workers endorse someone else, then disenfranchising shift
workers is a GOOD THING!

How blatantly Rovian.

I'm sure this will sit REAL WELL with the Nevada voters!

[OzarkDem]

31. The Rovian meme is getting stale

you folks really need to come up with a new smear when you can't win an argument.

[Hello_Kitty]

36. Except we are winning this one. Handily. nt

[OzarkDem]

40. Only in your fevered imagination

What you're actually doing is causing a lot of people who might support Obama to turn away from him. Same thing happened with Clark and Nader supporters in 04.

[CoffeeCat]

48. It is stale isn't it? ...and Hillary needs to...

...stop being such an obvious blowhard Rovian wannabee, and start
trailblazing some of her own dirty tricks and bullshit politics.

I mean, if you're going to act like an ass--at least use some of
your own material.

Hillary Clinton is the Kennie Banya of politics.

I can just hear her now, "That's GOLD Karl...GOLD!"

[sandnsea]

42. Do you have links for that?

I just remember her attack on students in Iowa. I didn't know she'd made complaints about shift workers. If Obama were doing all this, I guarantee you I'd drop him like a hot rock. I do not understand this blind allegiance in our party.

[CoffeeCat]

56. Yes, Hillary and those in her camp...

made up ridiculous assertions that Obama was busing in students from out
of state.

This never happened, of course.

I don't have a link to the student remarks or her remarks about
the shift workers. She made this remark a couple of days before
the Iowa caucuses. She seemed to me--to be striking down a
process because she knew she would not do well.

[Debi]

85. Here ya go TS!

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071203/NEWS/71203018/-1/politics

<snip>
In a jab at Obama?s efforts to encourage out-of-state students who attend college in Iowa to caucus, Clinton said the caucuses are only for people who live in this state.

?This is a process for Iowans. This needs to be all about Iowa, and people who live here, people who pay taxes here,? she told the Clear Lake crowd.

<snip>


and


http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/01/clinton-lowers.html

<snip>

You have a limited period of time on one day to have your voices heard," Clinton, D-N.Y., said. "That is troubling to me. You know in a situation of a caucus, people who work during that time -- they're disenfranchised. People who can't be in the state or who are in the military, like the son of the woman who was here who is serving in the Air Force, they cannot be present."

<snip>

[Lucinda]

52. The teachers have to work caucus sites they arent allowd to participate in

because they are being held at their schools, but their personal caucus sites are elsewhere. And they also object to the unfair weighting of the other caucus sites...where the same raw number of caucus goers will be awarded MORE delegates per number (I think it was 50)

And one thing people are forgetting in this is that ALL of the casino workers are not going to vote for Obama just because their union endorsed him. Some will...some won't. There is no reason for her to be trying to block participation.

[CoffeeCat]

62. Ok, help me to understand this please...

You said that "teachers have to work caucus sites they aren't allowed to participate in..."

Teachers have to "work" these caucus sites? On a Saturday? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what
you are saying, but teachers would not be working on Saturday when the caucuses happen.

Therefore, the teachers will be at home. Caucus participants caucus in their neighborhoods.
Caucus sites are always near your home, not your work-place.

Since the teachers will be home on Saturday....why is this an issue at all?

[Lucinda]

79. They say they are required to work at their schools, which are caucus sites, ON caucus day

Lawsuits is here:
http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20080112_nevada_lawsuit.pdf

[dkf]

65. Why do they have to work caucus sites?

That makes no sense to me. They are being forced to perform duties outside of teaching? What the heck kind of contract is that? Looks like their union sucks.

[Lucinda]

77. Not sure...but it's in the lawsuit. Link:

From what it says...they have to work at their schools which are caucus locations...but they cannot participate, because their personal caucus location are somewhere else.

http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20080112_nevada_lawsuit.pdf

[Hello_Kitty]

70. On Saturday? What schools would those be?

BTW it's not just casino workers and union members who can vote in the at large caucuses. Anyone who works within 2 miles of one may go.

[Lucinda]

78. They are evidently required to work at their schools on that day - which are caucus sites

I dont know why...but it's what is stated in the lawsuit. Link:
http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20080112_nevada_lawsuit.pdf

[Hello_Kitty]

83. It says "many". How many?

Why aren't they suing over being forced to work away from their caucus locations instead of over the at large caucuses? As far as the allegations about the apportionment of delegates go, they actually do have a point but why did they wait until this late date to issue this lawsuit? It looks really fishy coming on the heels of Obama's endorsement by the Culinary Union, almost like they were okay with the disproportionality (because they were thinking it would favor someone else) until that happened.

[Lucinda]

84. I think they are also unhappy about the weighting of the at large caucus sites

An equal raw number of people garners more delegates in some locations. I don't think thats is fair either. If it takes 50 people (or whatever the number is) to get one delegate in the burbs...it should be the same at all locations.

I think we really need to fix this whole caucus system. Everyone should be able to make their choice.

I don't happen to think the unions are all going to vote for Obama...so this isn't about knocking one group of voters for the other for me...I just think it all needs to be changed. I doubt anything will be solved at this time.

My objection to the mess is about voters getting screwed over by party politics. I'm very strongly one person one vote and COUNT them.

[mckeown1128]

39. Loaded question there bub.

Your question is based on a false premise. What evidence do you that Obama doesn't want the teachers to caucus. His union supporters aren't the ones trying to change the rules last minute to keep working folks from working. Sorry, but the facts don't match what you are implying.

[OzarkDem]

43. That's ma'am to you

The attack dogs from his campaign who have been badmouthing the head of the teachers union prove otherwise.

[mckeown1128]

81. excuse me ma'am....I would love to see a link...

to these attack dogs who have been badmouthing the head of the teachers union. A link PLEASE...

[killbotfactory]

47. How will removing the at-large caucus sites help the teachers vote?

Have you been sniffing glue, or something?

[Hello_Kitty]

51. Well we all know that's not the point of it

I'll bet the rank-and-file teachers aren't even behind this.

[OzarkDem]

55. Open them up

Let anyone who has to work on Saturday have an at-large caucus. Why favor only casino workers?

[sandnsea]

61. That's not why they can't vote

Anybody, anybody, who works within 2.5 miles of one of the at-large sites can vote there, not just casino workers.

Everybody else votes in their home precinct. I don't know why schools are having teachers work at caucus sites on that Saturday, but that's the problem. All they have to do is hire people to do whatever the teachers are doing and the teachers can caucus in their home precinct. Or not caucus, like anybody who has to work in Reno, Elko, Fallon, Lovelock or any other small town in Nevada.

I lived in Arkansas and I never heard these kinds of things about the Clintons. They were either very good at hiding their corruption, or they have changed. They are running the worst kind of dirty campaign I have ever seen.

[debatepro]

88. Working On Saturdays

I don't know why schools are having teachers work at caucus sites on that Saturday, but that's the problem.

This is the million dollar question. Must not be a very strong union if they are the only teachers in the country who have that specific saturday as a part of their regular work schedule. My wife is a teach the only time she works on saturday is when she chooses to... you know like to make extra money doing extra-curricular activities.

Anyway the solution to the problem is to make all the school sites at-large sites... for teachers not to disenfranchise other voters.

[cloudythescribbler]

72. Why not raise the issue of ALL workers having special caucuses in a timely way when ...

there's plenty of opportunity to adapt the caucus rules?

b/c this whole feigned concern for all those working Sat at noon OTHER than in (or within TWO AND A HALF MILES) the area where the caucuses are is just obscurantism. It's all about stopping the well=ORGANIZED CWU from mobilizing huge margins in favor of Obama.

But who wants to come out and SAY they are for disenfranchising voters because they don't expect to win most of their votes? Obviously, some way of distorting the issue, the way OzarkDem does, is needed for propaganda purposes.

The logic is that simple.

[Bishop Rook]

73. That's fine

Who's suggesting otherwise?

The teachers' union is not trying to "let anyone who has to work on Saturday have an at-large caucus"--they are trying to remove the casino workers' at-large caucuses. They're trying to prevent these people from voting.

And yet you're presenting the issue as if somehow the Obama camp is trying to prevent the teachers from voting. That's so ass-backwards I don't know where to begin.

[Bread and Circus]

58. You are going on ignore for this thread alone...

may my nerves be spared any more threads like this.

P.S. John Edwards is MUCH MUCH better than this trash.

[Barack_America]

69. Info about Hillary and her good friends, the teachers union...LINK

Why would teachers, who don't work on Saturdays to begin with, file a lawsuit complaining that casino workers shouldn't be able to caucus at work because they themselves can't. I mean, wouldn't most teachers be pissed that they would have to drive into work on a Saturday in order to caucus?

Could it *possibly* have anything to do with the fact that Hillary has strong ties with the teachers union and, using those ties, was able to persuade them to join this lawsuit?

Nah, that would be dirty politics beneath the Democratic party. Oh...wait...

The union, which has not endorsed a candidate, has some leaders who individually support Clinton. It is using a law firm with at least one prominent lawyer who backs Clinton. (Another teachers' union, the American Federation of Teachers, has endorsed Clinton and is airing radio ads in Nevada on her behalf.)

Okay, fine, but it's not like her campaign ever approved of the caucus policy until she lost the support of casino unions. Oh...wait....

State Democratic officials, who had been expecting the suit, said they had worked with each presidential campaign since last spring to craft the process, including the casino precincts, to drum up the largest turnout possible.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/01/13/ST2008011300798.html?hpid=topnews

[Lucinda]

80. Perhaps you should READ the lawsuit. LINK:

http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20080112_nevada_lawsuit.pdf

[Debi]

86. Aren't several of the people who are named plaintiffs in the law suit

the same people who crafted and voted on and approved and presented the plan to the DNC?

Not to mention who is 'of counsel' to the law firm that brought the suit :eyes:

[Lucinda]

87. Dunno...Do you have links for that?

I've only been looking at the facts listed in the lawsuit.

[Debi]

89. The names should be enough...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bilbray

Bilbray endorsed Clinton and has been campaigning for her

[OzarkDem]

91. That's not the issue

Read the lawsuit and reverse the roles and see if you would like Obama to be in Clinton or Edwards shoes.

[Debi]

92. Since the plan was set in place quite some time ago AND the campaigns

all had imput into the plan AND the plan was passed by the Nevada Democratic Party AND the DNC.

Why was the suit filed now? (and not by a law firm that has supporters of Edwards or Obama as 'of counsel'?)

[OzarkDem]

90. Thanks, very enlightening

The way the casino at-large caucuses were developed is counter to Nevada law. It appears they do only allow casino shift workers to participate, among other problems. It doesn't look as though the plan was well thought out.

Suggest everyone read the actual suit before jumping to conclusions. In some ways, this could be a caucus version of "stuffing the ballot boxes". Fine when a Dem is doing it, but what happens when the GOP gets hold of it and uses it as the basis for working against Dems.