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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 12:25 PM
Original message
I am frustrated - help me out, fellow DUers!
No - not that kind of frustration . . . :) The political kind.

I have met the three major candidates remaining. One I have met several times over the years. I am torn between Edwards and Obama. I like the Edwards' message - emphasizing help for the downtrodden, the class war being fought by the rich against all of us, the New Orleans national disgrace and so on. He wages a fight I strongly support - one I have waged myself at times only to be ridiculed by colleagues and collaborators. But I'm not sure that anger and bitterness gets us there, especially now, given the state of the nation. I also like the idea of electing a woman or person of color President - though I'm not sure the electorate shares that view. I like Obama's message of unity and reaching out to build a progressive coalition - he's Jack and MLK and FDR all rolled into one - a real benefit for a President. I like his support among the young, bringing new and fresh ideas into the process I liked his two books. But I don't yet see him reaching out to white ethnics, white working people and I get a very general message from his books and website. I also see the haunting specter of racism on the horizon and I fear for his life. Hillary has done this before to some extent and she probably knows the most going in. But I hate her vote on the War and Iran Resolution and the Clintons have a lot of baggage. I ave Clinton fatigue and I don't appreciate pseudo-monarchy

I've worked in a lot of campaigns over the years, mostly for underdog progressives mostly in op research and field organizing. Most of my candidates lost. Finally, I am prepared to give time and money to help one of the candidates in NY now and probably in other states in the GE. Like thousands of others, I did this for Kerry in '04, costing me tens of thousands of dollars. At the last, I was happy to do it - it was my pleasure and privilege. It's not like being a soldier, but in a small way it is a form of service to the country and Democratic principles. Without it, the Republic will not endure, a peril we should not underestimate now.

Help me here. Tell me briefly why I should vote for Barack or JE or Hillary. Help me decide. Thank you for reading this post and providing a sincere reply.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. I am going to steal a line from a Kos diary that saracat posted
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4041246

Obama - United We Sit At A Table To Bargain

Clinton - United We Sneak Off To A Backroom To Bargain

Edwards - United We Reach Our 300 Million Pound Fist Out And Fucking End This Tyrany And Take Our Democracy Back


That sums up where I believe this is heading.

YMMV, of course.

:toast:

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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. That's a keeper. Thanks for posting it,
missed that one
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. edwards talks about the problem and solutions.the others preach pie in the sky.. lets work with them
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riona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Sounds good to me!
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. I know but . . .
. . . I also know that gets people ostracized, jailed, wounded and killed. I've seen it. It can happen here. Is there a better way?
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surfermaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. 8 years the republicans could have brought bipartisian
If you think the republicans are going to play pretty, then you had better wake up. The republican party is as mean as you can get, and the only bipartisan they will have is my way or the H. Way, you and any one else that thinks that is going to happen is (Idon't know what, not me aning to be m ean like a republican Its not going to happen, we will just have another Republican Administration,
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lisa58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. I understand your frustration...
...I've met two of the three and know people who know the third.

I was for anyone in the second tier because the media just made me want to avoid the top tier and now they're gone.

The idea of the country having two families at the helm for such a long time is just unamerican, but I'll gladly take that over another republican administration.

I'm leaning Obama right now, but I find it hard to give up on Edwards' message. I think Edwards would make a great attorney general where he can take his fight to the playing field he has mastered.

Sorry, I'm no help except to let you know you're not alone.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Actually, I appreciate that. A lot. nt
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
5. John Edwards - History of Fighting
John Edwards has a history of fighting the powerful interests in favor of the little guy. I speak of his experience as a trial lawyer taking on big corporations who were willing to sacrifice safety and risk human life in the name of profit.

I think growing up, his experience parallels that of working class Americans more closely than Obama's and Clinton's does. I don't think he's forgotten it, despite some of his excesses now. I think we need that in a president.

He has the most ambitious plans (compared to Clinton and Obama). Do I think he'll really be able to do all of it? NO, of course not. But, at least he isn't afraid to dream big. He speaks of an ideal, but in practical terms. He believes every American should have health coverage - and he's willing to fight for it.

Finally, he's the underdog. The corporate owned media have been pushing Obama and Clinton, trying to margianalize Edwards. I say throw support to Edwards if for no other reason than to give the so called experts trying to pick our candidates for us another black eye.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. I hear this but . . .
. . . I'm not sure he or the message resonates with white working class voters. Maybe that's the MSM drowning him out. I'm not so sure - he turns off a lot of upper middle class and liberal voters. He made a lot of money as a trial lawyer and so the humble beginnings argument starts to fade a bit. Once successful, he rarely took cases for the underdog he was not certain he could win. Maybe what goes around comes around.

He's as tough as he says. But I really question whether he is as noble as he says. That said, I still like him a lot - it takes courage to present a class or populist message. For me, it's really between Barack and him.



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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I Don't Care If He's As Noble
maybe I'm a little bit cynical, but I don't think anyone in politics is as noble as they seem, or like to pretend.

I have no illusions about Edwards being noble. I would imagine most trial lawyers take cases cases for a few reasons (no particulr order)

1 - To make money
2 - To help people who had been wronged
3 - To use market forces to make coroporations do more for safety
4 - For the thrill of a challenge and the high of victory

I would like to believe for Edwards it was all four reasons. Number 1 may be attributed to greed, but then, a lot of people can relate to that. Number 2 and 3 sound noble, but really are only another part of the picture. As for #4, it is neither noble nor ignoble, but can be used to our advantage. And I think this is an aspect of John Edwards character that could be used to benefit our country just as much as the others.

No, he is not noble, he is flawed just like everyone else. But I don't think he pretends to be perfect or noble.
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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
6. Unity with whom, exactly?
Edited on Sat Jan-12-08 12:48 PM by PaulHo
>>>I like Obama's message of unity ...>>>>

GLBTs and people who want to burn them? That didn't work too well. I think he's going to have to be a bit more specific.


>>>and reaching out to build a progressive coalition - >>>>

Has he fleshed that out to any extent?

In order of preference ( of the so called 'top tier'), I'm for:

1. Edwards ( for the reasons you mentioned)

2. Obama

3. Clinton ( a *distant* third)

Obama could win me over but I'm thinking "Where's the beef?" Stump speaking flair is great and everyone likes "unity"... whatever that means... but unlike Edwards he doesn't speak convincingly to the issues of class and corporate control of the gov't.

OTOH, he gets a huge + , and Edwards a huge - , for their respective IWR positions.

But I could have written your post. I'd like someone to close the deal for Edwards OR Obama.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I usually agree with you
and this post is no exception.

I'd like one or the other to close the deal too.

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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. So let's give this one a K and R. nt
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
14. Obama advocates Health Care As A Right
He was the sole sponsor of the amendment in Illinois. 90% of the attacks against Obama are just flat out lies and they come more from Edwards supporters than they do Clinton supporters.

You'd think people would care about putting Health Care in a state constitution, turns out, not so much. Look up the people's records for yourself, and decide who has backed up his rhetoric with a life time of work. That's always the measure of a candidate.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4043464&mesg_id=4043464
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Michael Moore likes Edwards plan best....
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. In a word, yes, he is
Edwards plan calls for mandates AFTER all the other policies have been implemented. None of the reforms or success of the program are contingent on the mandate. Anybody who says it is, including John Edwards himself, is lying or misinformed. In addition, Obama's plan has a public component AND regulations of the insurance industry itself. Michael Moore is just as easily influenced by propaganda as anybody else. He thought Gore and Bush were the same, and supported Nader, remember??
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
17. Obama: Government transparency and accountability
One of my main reasons for supporting Obama is his work toward open and accountable government.

Election protection is one such area.

Sen. Barrack Obama (D-Ill.) – Sen. Obama has introduced several pieces of election legislation during his tenure in the Senate.

*
“Deceptive Practices and Voter Intimidation Prevention Act of 2005” (S. 1975) would criminalize efforts to confuse or intimidate voters in an attempt to keep them away from the polls on Election Day. The bill would make it a crime to knowingly communicate, within 60 days of an election, false information about the time and place of an election, a voter’s eligibility, registration rules and endorsements by a person or organization. Convictions for violating the law would carry with it penalties of up $100,000 or five years imprisonment, or both. It would also increase the maximum criminal penalty for voter intimidation from one year to five years’ imprisonment. The bill was read twice and referred to committee.
*
“Deceptive Practices and Voter Intimidation Prevention Act of 2006” (S. 4069) was a new version of voter intimidation and prevention of deceptive practices bill introduced in the previous session of Congress. The bill was read twice and referred to committee.
*
“The Election Jamming Prevention Act of 2006” (S.4102) bill would amend the Communications Act of 1934 to prohibit the use of telecommunications devices for the purposes of preventing or obstructing the broadcast or exchange of election-related information. The bill was read twice and referred to committee
*
“Deceptive Practices and Voter Intimidation Prevention Act of 2007” (S.453) is a new version of voter intimidation/prevention of deceptive practices bill introduced in the previous session of Congress. The bill was reintroduced on Jan. 31, read twice and referred to committee.
*
“Voter Advocate and Democracy Index Act” (S. 737) legislation would create a scorecard to rank states on a set of standards designed to measure the ease of exercising the right to vote. Under the proposed legislation a new Office of the Voter Advocate would be created within the Election Assistance Commission (EAC) and would develop a Democracy Index. The Index would require states to report basic performance metrics such as the amount of time voters spend waiting in line, the number of voters incorrectly directed to the wrong polling place, the rate of ballots discarded or not counted along with an explanation, and the rate of voting system malfunctions and the time required on average to get the systems back online, to name a few. The legislation directs the Office of the Voter Advocate to conduct a pilot program in selected states in 2008. The bill was read twice and referred to committee.

http://www.electionline.org/Newsletters/tabid/87/ctl/Detail/mid/643/xmid/244/xmfid/3/Default.aspx





Citizen access to government spending resulted from the Federal Funding Accountability and Transparency Act (S. 2590) sponsored by Obama and made into law:

* A free, searchable website that will track approximately $1 trillion in federal grants, contracts, earmarks and loans.

* Near real-time updates of data concerning federal spending. Updates can be expected every two weeks instead of quarterly, as is the current practice for existing federal grants information.

* The opportunity for the users to post comments and provide feedback about the website in a public, online user community.

* For the first time, most government spending data will be searchable by contractor or grantee and by congressional district.

* For the first time, grant recipients will receive a unique identifier that will help users track recipients.

* In January 2009, the database will include searchable information about subcontracts and subgrants.

http://www.usaspending.gov/



Also the Feingold-Obama Lobbying and Ethics Reform Act:

Banning Lobbyists’ Gifts and Curbing Privately Funded Travel

* Prohibits lobbyists and organizations that retain or employ lobbyists from giving gifts to Members or staff. Includes exceptions for family members and personal friends, campaign contributions, informational materials, etc.
* Requires Members and campaigns to reimburse for the use of corporate jets at the charter rate rather than at first class airfare as is now required. Also requires disclosure of itinerary, purpose, and identity of others who were on the plane for any such trips.
* Includes new travel rules just adopted by the House of Representatives that would limit privately funded travel to one-day events with minimal lobbyist involvement. Only organizations that do not employ or retain lobbyists could pay for multi-day, educational trips. Pre-approval by the Ethics Committee for all privately funded travel is required.
* Prohibits lobbyists and entities that retain or employ lobbyists from throwing lavish parties honoring members at the party conventions.

Improving Enforcement of the Rules

* Includes the Lieberman-Collins proposal for an Office of Public Integrity to carry out independent investigations of ethics complaints.

Slowing the Revolving Door

* Increases cooling-off period for executive and legislative branch employees from one to two years. Former Members and very senior executive branch officials (cabinet members, heads of agencies) will be prohibited from engaging in lobbying activities as well as lobbying contacts for that period. This will prevent a former Member from supervising or designing a lobbying campaign while avoiding any direct contact with Members or staff.
* Former senior congressional staff will be restricted from making lobbying contacts to the entire house of Congress they worked for rather than just the employing office as under current law.
* Requires lobbyists to disclose on their lobbying registrations any previous employment with the executive or legislative branch, rather than only such employment within two years prior to acting as a lobbyist.
* Prohibits Members from engaging in negotiations for future employment as a lobbyist. Requires senior staff to disclose such negotiations for any future employment to the Ethics Committee and obtain guidance on avoiding possible conflicts of interest.
* Provides that any benefit available equally and only to all former members of the Senate shall not be available to former Senators who are registered lobbyists (e.g., floor privileges, gym membership).
* Prohibits the staff of a Senator from having any official contact with that Senator’s spouse or family members.

Improving Lobbying Disclosure

* Requires lobbying disclosure reports to be filed quarterly rather than semi-annually, and requires electronic filing and Internet searchable databases to improve public accessibility.
* Requires disclosure of the earmarks that lobbyists have sought for their clients.
* Requires disclosure of grassroots lobbying expenditures.
* Requires disclosure of members of lobbying coalitions.
* Requires lobbyists to disclose political contributions they make or collect, fundraisers they hold, and donations to presidential libraries, inaugural committees, and charities associated with Members of Congress.
* Requires recipients of federal funds to disclose the lobbyists they have hired to advocate for those funds.
* Requires electronic filing of Senate campaign reports.

Strengthening Open Government in the Senate

* Eliminates secret holds.
* Requires conference reports to be available on the Internet for Senators and the public at least 48 hours prior to their being considered in the Senate.
* Prohibits “dead of night” changes to conference reports after signatures of conferees have been obtained.
* Provides a point of order against “out of scope matters” in a conference report that were in neither House or Senate versions of a bill. 60 votes are required to waive this point of order.

http://feingold.senate.gov/~feingold/issues_ethicsfacts.html




I have many other reasons, but this an important one to me.

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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Thanks WesDem! You saved me some work.
I knew he'd done those things but I didn't have the links rounded up. Now I'll just bookmark your post.

Government transparency and accountability is really important to me, too. It's foundational to any real, permanent reform.
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Liz7 Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
20. Edwards
Edited on Sat Jan-12-08 04:14 PM by Liz7
As I see it Edwards offers a lot more in the way of actual plans and clear positions rather than ideas based on emotional appeal. This is not to say that Obama is lacking substance, but I haven't seen anything in him near the caliber of what Edwards stands for.

And Obama's message of bipartisanship and compromise is just unrealistic given what we've been dealing with for the past eight years. You can't "play nice" with some people, and his focus on this points to a major blind spot.
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