It wasn't the misting of her eyes, it was "You're Likable ENOUGH, Hillary"

[ruggerson]

said in an almost dismissive, angry tone.

A lot of us took notice of that the night of the debate. I'm totally convinced a lot of New Hampshirites felt the same way.

I'm sure it was just a bad, brief moment for Barack, and not illustrative of something in his character, but nevertheless, it was jarring and dissonant and not a good television soundbyte.

Funny thing is, besides Stephanopolous, not a single talking head picked up on it. It doesn't fit their narrative.

But voters sure did.

[Bread and Circus]

1. Really? Is there any exit poll of people that broke at the last

minute for Clinton because of that interchange?

[Essene]

87. Since folks keep lying about what he said... watch it again

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7RuzYvtCw

She got attacked by the question. She handled it with grace, and said he was likable.

He responded by defending her, saying she was likable too.

SHE THANKED HIM.

Get real, folks...

[kstewart33]

2. Markos (Daily Kos) said that Obama's remark cost him at least...

2 to 3 percentage points in the NH primary.

It caught my attention. It was sexist and arrogant. Obama and his wife seemed to get too cocky after the Iowa primary, a bit too full of themselves. I'm hoping that the NH loss brings them down to earth.

[SharonAnn]

19. I was flabbergasted! It changed my undecided mind and made me commit to her

immediately. I logged on and sent her $100 right then. The next day, when Edwards talked about "resolve", implying she didn't have it and couldn't handle the tough job, I sent her another $100. I hope they don't keep piling on her because I'll go broke at this rate.

i absolutely, positively heard that as sexist, dismissive, arrogant, male chauvinistic behavior. I'm Hillary's age and I've worked in the corporate world as the "first woman who .." for 40 years. I recognized that put down immediately. I'd had an ankling of it from him before, but thought it couldn't be. Then I heard that.

Sexism is even more endemic in our society than racism, though they're both strong. Women and girls are more than 50% of the population.

Our time is now!

Don't even pretend that his remark was misinterpreted. That's always the excuse. Sorry, been there, heard that before.

[Catherine Vincent]

28. Obama supporters have been mean to me calling me names.

I could use a $100. :evilgrin:

[Clintonista2]

75. LOL, let's get wolsh in this thread

We can get at least 10 grand in the first 5 minutes of Wolsh clicking on this thread.

[libbygurl]

66. Loved this post, SharonAnn!

Cracked up when you said, "I hope they don't keep piling on her because I'll go broke at this rate."

Heh, me, too!

[calico1]

81. I am over 40 too. Actually I am

pushing 50. Again, I could be wrong but it almost seems to me that although Edwards and Obama are competing against each other, they are still both part of the good old boys club in which girls don't belong and that attitude came across from both of them.

[Beacool]

86. I'm Obama's age and I too recognized it as a put down and sent her a donation.

I also resented his veiled comments against her when he talked about meeting with ambassadors and "having tea" did not give someone real life experience in foreign issues as he had since his grandma lived in a hut in a tiny village in Kenya. The "having tea" stuff was insulting and sexist, aside from being mostly inaccurate.

[mckeown1128]

68. how exactly was that sexist???

you want try to explain that POS you just uttered. Arrogant...maybe sexist...no #$@#ing way. He could have just as easily said it to Edwards and Richardson...it had nothing to do with the fact that she was a woman.

[kstewart33]

90. Well, we saw different things.

But evidently many, many women disagree with your perspective. Blacks are so sensitive to putdowns as they should be. And so are women.

[Skwmom]

83. I guess I must have imagined that they played the gender and age card.

Murdoch papers (the Clinton's buddy) print the unflattering front page photos (Hillary in a panic, and She's so Yesterday).
The right wing jocks hold up a sign at a Clinton rally "Iron my shirt." Politics sure does make strange bedfellows (Clinton/Rove).
The choking up - then an immediate 180 attacking Obama.
Bill Clinton - I can't make her male (gender), tall (gender), or young (age) statements played again and again on t.v.
Edwards comments - (Funny, I thought Clinton and Edwards were buddies b/c Edwards helped him with the impeachment debacle. I also read he was the first one to call Edwards after Kerry tapped him for VP and that he was pushing Kerry to pick him (saying the Democrats would get 16 years in the Whitehouse), and he was praised by the Clinton henchmen (Carville, etc.). Well "if" there is any rift or hard feelings I'm sure it won't be permanent. I mean Edwards in the race sure does help out Hillary in more ways then just splitting the vote.

[still_one]

3. wow,l if voters reason that way instead of on the issues, this country is screwed /nt

[CTyankee]

72. Here we go...why is a little "click" sounding in my head?

Could it be the sound of the "women don't use reason" meme I grew up hearing so much?

There is an issue here and you completely missed it! The issue is sexism.

[SharonAnn]

77. Yes, "Click!" It's exactly that "Click!" moment.

[CTyankee]

91. I'm a bit older than you, SharonAnn, but glad you know just what I mean.

The 20 and 30 somethings are not getting it and that makes me sad. However, you'd love to meet my 9 year old granddaughter who is practically on a mission for Hillary Clinton. She is such a strong feminist (and human rights and environmental activist also!). Her mom, my daughter, is also for Hillary, but she should be as we marched together for choice in Washington.

Now, though I am an Edwards supporter, it looks like a decision might have to be made to switch if he cannot go on. I wondered about what my 2nd choice would be but, after what has been coming down recently, I will go to HRC.

[AX10]

4. He was getting too arogant after just a single win.

It was a bad moment for him.

[marylanddem]

6. He was just expressing dry wit -

too dry for some apparently. But I thought it was fine.

[SharonAnn]

20. Baloney!

[Cha]

33. Baloney to you.

[libbygurl]

39. Dry wit? Not in my dictionary of wit at all. More like condescension, arrogance. nt

[jlake]

45. So dry it dusted up and blew away. That was NOT wit, it was sadistic cruelty.

[journalist3072]

23. Totally agree with you....His arrogance is really telling. I just hope he remembers

pride cometh before a fall.

[jlake]

43. Agree 110%

[Adelante]

5. This is enough

I watched it on television. I have since watched it three times on video. It was delivered in a dry way, as a small joke, which was meant to be supportive of Hillary. Looking at Hillary's facial expression, I think confirms Hillary herself took it as intended. She laughed and not in a false way. I doubt voters picked up on anything from that brief passage. With respect, her supporters are taking this someplace false.

[KennedyGuy]

8. I dunno..perception is everything nowadays..

unfortunatly...that was percieved as dismissive..not saying that was Obamas intent certainly..but these candidates are aware that every word will be placed under the microscope.

[goodgd_yall]

16. The point is

not everyone took it as dismissive. Why should the MSM make much ado about it when there was a mixture of perceptions? Better to err on the side of restraint and save their time and energy on a real whopper.

[Evergreen Emerald]

73. conversly, had Clinton said it--we would be watching it 24-7

With therapists disecting it to determine if she really is that angry and arrogant.

And of course DU would explode with threads about how it was PROOF that Clinton is a bitch.

[SharonAnn]

79. But interestingly, many women took it as dismissive (even if men didn't).

So, what does that say? It says that many women heard something in it and that they had a strong reaction to it.

Maybe it's worth thinking about?

[calico1]

78. I agree. He may have meant it

in a lighthearted way but to me it came off as dismissive and kind of sarcastic.

[goodgd_yall]

11. I agree with you

The MSM can save its buzz for something more definitively bad behavior.

[JI7]

26. it was her answer in the debate about change

people were criticizing her on DU and elsewhere over that. how it was a "dean moment" or something else to signal an end to her campaign.

to me , that was one of the best moments i had seen of her.

[CarolNYC]

80. I agree, JI7

It was stunning to see people saying she looked like a "mad woman" and worse...simply because she had the nerve to defend herself when the young dynamic duo were having a go at her. I thought she was wonderful in that response myself.

[Catherine Vincent]

31. Is that exchange on youtube?

I haven't seen it.

[Adelante]

46. Yes, that's where I watched it, cat_girl nt

[Cha]

35. hillary's surrogates aren't happy with

winning in NH they have to use it as an excuse to condemn Obama for any slight they percieve like fucking insecure neeners.

[Egnever]

63. of course they are cause it plays into what they credit for her win

the mean men picking on the poor little lady theme. This is their winning strategy in NH and they plan on running hard with it. I would too if I were them it works. Women aparently came out in droves for it.

That or diebold slid her a nice late xmas present.

[goodgd_yall]

7. When he said that

I had mixed thoughts. First I thought it was snarky, then I thought Obama wanted to take a light tone instead of sounding smarmy. I didn't think he sounded angry or dismissive. I think it was an attempt at humor, but the intention seems ambiguous.

I'm glad the MSM didn't make a big deal of it. I'm really tired of the overblown reaction of the MSM to the small stuff in the campaigns.

[patrice]

9. It was just short of contempt.

I haven't worked with people, lots and lots of people, all of my adult life to be far wrong in what I heard and saw.

[journalist3072]

10. I lost even more respect for him after that....It was a disgusting display of behavior by Obama

And it just reinforces my point that he talks out of his ass....sometimes the best thing is to keep your mouth shut, and he can't do that.

[Tess99]

13. How about the Clinton campaign accusing the

first viable black president of being a drug dealer? Did that disgust you as well?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tess99]

24. Um, yes they did.

"has he ever sold drugs?" is what Shaheen asked in that Washington Post interview. Now, does that kind of racism disgust you as much as a harmelss comment toward your "girl"? Of course it doesn't. Hypocrite.

[journalist3072]

34. You are so disingenuous it's not even funny..

Shaheen was simply saying that Sen. Clinton has been tested; that we know all there is to know about her.

And Shaheen did NOT freakin accuse Barack Obama of using drugs. Shaheen said that Obama's past drug use would be an issue if he made it to the general election, because it would be likely the Republicans would ask during the general campaign...well, he used drugs. Has he ever sold them?

Shaheen said the Republicans would most likely throw that at him during the general. Shaheen NEVER accused Obama of selling drugs.

[GalleryGod]

49. Update your website.

[Tess99]

58. And he was playing politics, wasn't he?

The fact is, it wasn't the Republicans who suggested Obama was a drug dealer. It was Hillary's campaign. And you can sit here and act like Hillary is an innocent angel or that what her she sent her co-chair out to say to the Washington Post wasn't racist, but that doesn't change the fact that she's not innocent and what was said was indeed racist.

Fact is, you're so disingenuous, it's not even funny. Now, does that kind of racism disgust you as much as Obama's horrendous mean nasty woman hating comment he made to poor Hillary in the debate?

[Essene]

65. get real

you cry about a single comment from obama... scream how horrible it was... when it wasnt even an attack.

meanwhile, this guy's getting smeared non-stop by eveyrbody, including insanely obnoxious and disgraceful race baiting, fear mongering and nasty stuff from teh clintons themselves.

get real.

it's teh clintons who are making this democratic campaign into a disgrace and it could cost the party the white house in the end.

false hope?
a civil rights lawyer with an mlk style and the clintons have to say he's no mlk?
fairy tale?

that was just 1 day. get real.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[moriah]

84. Racism???

I don't see the comment as racist.

Shaheen did not say that Obama had sold drugs. He said that the Republicans are going to ask him if he sold drugs. And I think they will.

But how on earth does that bring racism into play? I have known far more white drug dealers than black ones -- then again, I live in a predominately white area. Even when I lived in the capital city, I knew far more people who did and sold drugs that were white than were black. Drug use and dealing is NOT a racial issue, especially with the two drugs he admitted doing. If he'd said "crack" instead of "cocaine" perhaps I might see a bit of the reason you are feeling this was a racial attack -- crack use is perceived as a predominately Black problem, even though it's not. (I of all people know this -- my father is a crackhead, and he's white. I've known several other people who had to go to rehab for crack addiction who were white, and some sold it.) But cocaine is seen as a drug done by the white elite -- Bush, anyone? And marijuana use spans the races as well.

As for why I think they will comment on it, well, we commented on Bush's cocaine use.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1210194/posts

And look at the accusations against Fred Thompson and Rudy Giuliani.

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/66894/

He will be asked those questions. It was a statement of fact. Any Presidential nominee who admits to drug use will be questioned about it.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

53. Yet, you had no problem with talking about "bimbo eruptions" on another post.

So, you bristle at "racism" but fling "sexism" happily?

And, if you argue "bimbo eruptions" isn't sexist, I won't be surprised.

MKJ

[Tess99]

61. Nope. Talking about Bill Clinton's

"bimbo" eruptions is not sexist. Bimbo is gender neutral where I come from. Example: Jessica Simpson and her ex-husband are total bimbos.

And I will continue to rail against racism on this board. The man said she was "likeable enough" and people are calling for his head and claiming that she's the victim of "cruelty" and how he better watch it and quit being uppity. So get used to it. This ultra white site needs voices from a black perspective to counter the hate up in here being thrown and Sen Obama.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

64. MmmHmmm,

Well, you sure told me.

MKJ

on edit, love the "gender neutral" bimbo.

[ShortnFiery]

40. Sure, and HRC's husband's melt down claiming that he can't make her taller and younger was mature?

:shrug:

[AmBlue]

48. Copying the Edwardses again... Getting to be a routine, I see.

These people have no good lines of their own!!

[kurth]

12. Fits his description: SMUG

[winga222]

14. I think if you were ambivalent on Obama, or at least upset

by either the nonstop media glee at Hillary's demise or even just tired of being told it was already all decided, that comment really came off as dismissive, snarky, smug or just more plain piling on. I'm sure the Obama fans felt it came off as witty but it just didn't feel that way at all to a lot of it. I think it cost him dearly.

And like almost everything else posted here at DU, that's just my opinion. A phrase that should procede or follow just about everything posted here these days.:pals:

[SharonAnn]

21. I was ambivalent about him. I'm not now.

[winga222]

27. Would you pick that comment as what brought you over to his side?

I can't imagine that it did but perhaps the sheer wittiness of it brought in hordes. Again, just my opinion.

[cindyw]

15. I'll trade that remark for "I'd like to know the answer to that one"

Remember when she said Obama had her advisors.

[Sparkly]

17. That wasn't personal. nt

[winga222]

22. Exactly. That makes a big difference. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. Rationalization. n/t

[ShortnFiery]

29. Oh please! Anyone loses it and sheds a tear for genocide, A OK, but for selfish desires - NO SLACK!

HRC "lost it" over the mere whiff that she may not continue to be the front runner. If that was not staged, it was WEAK and revealed an emotion reflecting "an self-aggrandizing sense of entitlement." Regardless of gender, that moment is suggestive of a character flaw that is seriously unbecoming for any human being, much less the leader of the free world. :thumbsdown:

[Occam Bandage]

30. My dear mother is a Hillary fan. She though Barack was simply being gentlemanly.

My fiancée is a Hillary fan. She thought Barack was being catty and petty.

I would bet most people didn't really care.

[CTyankee]

74. Frankly, when I saw him make that remark I was mystified.

It seemed "off" to me and I can't quite express why. Maybe it was his using her first name. It seems that she is "Hillary" a lot but the others aren't "Barack" or "John." I prefer using initials like HRC, that way there is no confusion between a reference to her or to Bill Clinton. See what I mean?

[Cha]

32. No they didn't that's just your

rabid fantasy. hillary isn't likeable to a lot of people and Obama was being too kind.

[ShortnFiery]

37. I dunno, perhaps Mark Penn can now let this reach "full bloom" by establishing ...

an HRC/DLC version of Rovarian Swift Boaters who all claim, "Obama was mean to me ... and he stole my shoe!" :crazy: :rofl:

[Bonobo]

36. Wow! Imagine that! You're the only one with that brilliant theory!

[FrenchieCat]

38. Ruggerson, unfortunately, I believe that you are wrong.....

or unless people are that just that stupid or believe that Obama is simply "uppity"....then, maybe you could make a case.

The dumb ass puppet debate moderator was discussing "Likability", and he stated that Obama was the most likable (what a ridiculous fucking topic, as they should have been discussing how "capable" the candidates were instead, but what-E-ver).....and Mr. Moderator basically was dissing Hillary by telling her that she wasn't so likeable.....and then she did her Innocent-Doe-eye thing with her eyes and head (for which I don't blame her for...cause that was a ridiculous spot to even have to be in....running to become the most powerful person in the world).

what Obama said, which made the most sense considering the circus that it was is.....
"you are likable ENOUGH" and stated it dismissively with dry wit (ever heard of that? Probably not, since candidates are nothing but plastic mannequin these days), because this was like a stupid ass thing to be talking about.

Currently Americans aren't soooo interested in somebody that is likable....cause that's how we got Bush- Hel-lo, the guy with the beer. :crazy:

the American people want someone that is capabable....
and only Likable ENOUGH.

So it was Obama that was saying that being "Likable" ain't the most important thing in this campaign.

He was right about that.

So now, for having some fucking levity (along with being an original and not copying Hillary's words like she does, or copying other people's "behind me crowds" like she did) and being sane, and not playing the stupid game, Obama is the bad "uppity" villain.

You can go and vote for the most unoriginal person in the room, but you ain't taking me with ya!

GOBAMA!

[AtomicKitten]

41. He said: "You're likable enough, Hillary. No doubt about."

Sorry to burst your :tinfoilhat: bubble, but he was softening the nasty blow just lobbed against her by the moderator who told her nobody liked her.

[GalleryGod]

47. What had directly preceded that was HRC's "bad acting performance" of the hurt damsel

[AtomicKitten]

52. I'm getting a bit dizzy here with all the calls of misogyny when

she is playing every card in the deck to win.

She (and DU'ers) can't have it both ways.

[GalleryGod]

71. Well put, AK.

This is the SOS as 2004...just jump in and hang on.

[Colobo]

42. It'll be forgotten real quick. NV and SC won't give a damn about that

because they probably never saw the NH debate in the first place.

[annie1]

44. It was also her cheeky "well that hurts my feelings...but i'll try to go on"...

i think this was more important. It was very funny and very clever, and she was different than I'd ever seen her in that joke.

[Adelante]

51. She was adorable with that, I thought

And Obama was playing into that. He was not being disrespectful. He was joking as she was joking. It reminded me of when John Edwards commented on her pantsuit and Obama piped up and said he liked her pantsuit. I really think he is getting a bum rap on this.

[annie1]

59. agree. i think it's because..

he already comes off a little cocky, so when he said it and you could barely hear the "no doubt about it" at the end, it came off nast. I didn't hear that part til recently. But he is kinda cocky, so even though it might be a tad of a bum rap on the retort, it's still fitting because someone who isn't slightly cocky or arrogant wouldn't have said "likeable enough" to begin with. And i liked the john edwards joke, i thought that was a trip.

"not sure about the coat though" lol.

[Essene]

67. yes (and obama's comment was in her DEFENSE)

and it's disgusting to see people here pretending otherwise.

she handled it with grace and he did as well.

[spooky3]

50. it's called "damning with faint praise" but I think he and all candidates

were exhausted, and I give him the benefit of the doubt. However, I would like to see both Obama and Edwards heighten their awareness of sexist treatment and speak up when it happens rather than remain silent.

It's the continued, sexist media attack that I think led many voters to say, "enough of this crap. We have the power to send a message, and we are going to do so."

[calimary]

54. No kidding. I sure noticed. I didn't see the debate in real time, but I

saw that particular clip. It sounded AWFULLY cavalier. Might not have been meant that way, but I would have hated to be on the receiving end of it. That whole sordid business would have been miserable to have to tolerate out there in public - working without a net.

[usregimechange]

55. Christ, can we give a shit about issues that matter?

[FrenchieCat]

57. Obviously not.....

Instead we have to gather together to deal with the Commander in Chief's possible hurt feeling.

Too bad Hillary didn't say after Barack's comment, Thanks Sen. Obama for that, and I know that Likability is somewhat important...., but being capable is more important...and I think I've got that covered. Go out to drink beer sounds soooo 2000!

Now, that would have won her some "debate" points against Obama and with the crowd....even if what he said was perfectly acceptable.

[LucyParsons]

56. I kind of agree.

I am still shaking my head on that one.

[Essene]

60. what are you people smoking? =)

1. His comment had absolutely no impact, in spite of the Rove spin

His comment that night was not mean at all, although i understand how some people may INSIST on seeing it that way. Or perhaps you're taking your cues from Karl Rove's camp (boy, he sure wants to see Hillary win the primary, dont he?). His comment was humorous and mild flattery. His comment is far less important that her grace in handling that question. Only Hillary zealots would make much out of his comment.


2. The pundits & pollsters got it wrong.

With such a huge portion of undecided voters and 45% independents, has anybody considered the possibility that all the pollsters just GOT IT WRONG?

This idea that Hillary had a "come back" over 24 hours and this frenzy of nutty speculation about why... completely misses the point. She didn't have a come back. She was never really behind. She won strong among the Dem base and women. She did very well with independents, all considered.

3. Undecided voters went with experience.

NOT HER TEARS. NOT THE DEBATE SCUFFLE. They went with a brand name and experience.

I suspect the "surge" mentality and emphasis on how Obama was gonna win by so much may have in fact lead people to be skeptical and nervous voting for him in NH. All the smear campaigns and the Clinton stump speeches sunk in.

They bought her message... not his.

[rufus dog]

62. The ironic part regarding Stephanopolous

is he tells a story of Bill walking into a room in 93 or 94 while George and Carvile are watching results from a focus group regarding Hillary. The Negatives are shooting up as Hillary talks and Bill says, they must not like her new hairstyle! George says he and James were bitting their lips until Bill left and then busted up laughing after the door shut. He follows up by saying it was sweet in a way, Bill obvioulsly was sticking up for her.

Just interesting perspective to add!

[bunnies]

70. You must not live in NH.

Because that sure as hell isnt what Im hearing around here.

[Apollo11]

76. Obama has since said he should have said "I think you're plenty likeable"

It was in the interview with Obama on Good Morning America (January 7th).

"What I should have said -- the way I suppose I should have phrased it -- is "I think you are plenty likeable". I was trying to make a gesture of graciousness that apparently has somehow been perceived differently. But you know, that's the hazards of running for President"


You can find it on the video player on the ABC News website http://abcnews.go.com

Look in the Politics section under "Vote 2008: Democrats". The video is called "A Day with Obama".

The relevant part is about 3 minutes in. I accept Obama's explanation of what he meant.

[Essene]

88. She thanked him for the compliment. Period.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7RuzYvtCw

[CTyankee]

92. I missed that but I am glad to hear it now. n/t

[depakid]

82. If something this shallow affects the outcome of an election America's in Big Trouble

Oh wait....

[zulchzulu]

85. It's funny how a little comment makes someone decide to support a war hawk

To think someone would change their mind on a candidate, who is a war hawk and is partially responsible for thousands of deaths and trillions of dollars lost down a rathole, because of one simple little statement that meant nothing.

Whatever.

[MISSDem]

89. I know I winced when it happened.

It was so unlike Obama. I wonder why he did that.