In terms of "personality" moments, I thought "you are likeable enough, Hillary"

[ruggerson]

was probably the worst of the debate. Obama usually comes across as sunny and warm and that remark was arrogant and borderline cruel.

In terms of passion, Edwards won hands down.

In terms of inspiration, OBama won hands down.

In terms of brains and substance, Clinton won hands down.


For whom one votes is largely going to be a reflection of what one is seeking in a President.

[babylonsister]

1. Got it, thanks. nt

[ruggerson]

3. meaning?

[babylonsister]

25. I think we need to agree to disagree, because we do.

:hi: I'm afraid to get near any thread you're at, because I know how you don't like. That is where I'm at with you and a few other DUers. I'm afraid to respond because of the vociferous response I get. I'm done responding.

I'm not on DU to make enemies. I like to make a point. When that will never happen, I'm done.
That's how I feel. So, to all, love you lots, but I'm done.

[ruggerson]

29. I didn't understand your remark

I was simply asking what you meant. Sorry if you misinterpreted it. I'm on DU to exchange ideas and offer my perspective and hear that of others. Yours is always valued, in my book.

[surfermaw]

61. For what...media says Edward won the debate

[kurth]

2. Nah... he almost said "you're as pretty as you can be"

"but not as pretty as me"

[Tom Rinaldo]

4. A good summation, I agree

Each of them made different strong cases, but I thought all of them did well, including Richardson who put in one of his better performances.

[Renew Deal]

5. Obama could have left that out.

There was no need.

[aquart]

16. And yet, so telling.

But no worries. He's a uniter, not a divider.

[Skarbrowe]

22. I've been dropping little posts about this arrogance problem all over

the place this morning. I absolutely cringed when Obama said "You are likeable enough SNARK!" I've been commenting about Obama on several threads tonight. Most of them have to do with what I consider unfair attacks on Hillary who I had not been supporting. My man dropped out. I honestly don't think I could live through another President that likes to get those "cut down" zingers in. Maybe Obama has reason. Maybe the Hillary camp has done something to really make him angry and it's not his usual personality. Only time will tell. I mean we all already know how humorless Hillary is. Poor woman can't make a joke to save her life.

I'm worn out and it's only been Iowa.

[pnwmom]

27. I don't think she's humorless at all. Men like to tell jokes.

Women are less likely to tell jokes, but that doesn't mean they can't be funny. And they enjoy spontaneous, unscripted humor. For example, I thought her Campbell Brown moment was VERY funny and that Hillary showed excellent comic timing.

[Beacool]

44. Actually, you don't know Hillary.

She has a great sense of humor and a sharp wit. Unfortunately, she usually doesn't express it in public.

I too found Obama's remark to be snarky. Why did he even say it? It seemed that he muttered it under his breath. Maybe I'm in the minority, but the guy has always truck me as being cocky and this was just one of those moments where he let the facade slip and it showed.

[Skarbrowe]

66. I've been reading about Hillary in Bernstein's book. I guess I meant

that she isn't always "taken" funny when she is trying to be. That certainly isn't her fault. Plus, I think it might be hard to appear to be funny on the campaign trail especially if you are a woman. Joe Biden's comment about Guiliani which I can't remember exactly at the moment, was very sarcastic, but coming from him and the way he said it, it was hilarious. Obama's comment about "You are nice enough, Hillary" had a very dismissive tone to it coming from the new front runner. If he had been still way below her in the polls or not coming off beating her in Iowa, it probably wouldn't have sounded the same.

I do know that Hillary can be very witty and funny and I apologize for saying that she wasn't. I was only thinking of times she tried and the press jumped all over her.

[annie1]

6. Great assessment. thanks you. K&R.

[mathewsleep]

7. i laughed

my ass off, that was almost as funny as richardson's one-liner.

[aquart]

18. Really? That's what you find funny?

Good to know.

[mathewsleep]

32. i do

have a sadistic sense of humor. seriously, she's pulled some mean spirited and underhanded things. having staffers say things that are either untrue(that he's a muslim terrorist) or just ridiculous(kindergarten) in an attempt to discredit him is such a backstabbing bull shitty thing to do. if she wants the info to be out there, she needs to say it herself, and not have some staff do it, and then fire them.

[Beausoir]

8. It's the old "who would you rather have a beer with?" moment. I had hoped we had moved past this.

But I, as per usual, am wrong.

It's all down to puppy love, platitudes, who do you want to eat pizza with and who is more "likeable".

We have learned NOTHING from the past 8 years. Nothing.

[CoffeeCat]

13. I don't view this as who do I "like" the best...

...or who do I want to "have a beer with".

I like Obama's ideas and his commitment to the Constitution and his stance on the Iraq war.

However, the appeal of his personality is his ability to INSPIRE. He inspires people to work hard for him
and he brings out the best in people. That could catalyze an incredible campaign apparatus against the
Republicans. He inspires people to think beyond party lines, which is why so many Independents and
some disenfranchised Republicans will vote for him. That could definitely fuel a landslide so big
that even the Republicans couldn't steal the election.

Barack Obama inspires. He incites hope. When John F Kennedy inspired so many, the nation was
proud and open to his personality and charisma. Now, people use Obama's personality and
charm against him.

We've got a good thing going on with Obama. It's fine if you disagree with his policies and
his ideas. However, why do we have to position the extraordinary traits and talents of people and
turn them into sinister attributes?

[Beausoir]

21. Oh my! Read post #11 in this thread and ask that question again.

Talk about silliness.

[CoffeeCat]

58. Your logic is flawed.

The question I asked is...why do we have to spin the candidates' positive attributes and talents against
the candidates?

I was speaking specifically about Obama's remarkable communications skills and how people
are attempting to position those skills as something sinister.

The comment I made in post #11, was rooted in Hillary's votes that perpetuate the PNAC,
neocon agenda. Her inability to stand up to these neocon thugs and the Bush machine,
when they were illegally wiretapping us, propagating torture and turning the office of
the President into some "Unitary Executive" playground. She's silent when our Constitution
is being ripped to shreds and she most recently helped Bush with his propaganda war against
Iran--with her Kyl/Lieberman vote.

I will stand up against and speak out against any Democrat who votes with the neocons. I
don't like it when Lieberman does it. I don't like what Zell Miller did to us.

Calling her a neocon warmgongering weasel is being nice. How DARE she do this as a
Democrat. How DARE Joe Lieberman do it.

I see absolutely nothing positive about Hillary's policies or actions while our nation has
been sliding into Fascism. There's nothing positive to spin negatively, because her entire
record on all of this is an abomination.

Saying "absolutely not" to her is patriotic, in my opinion--if you are an American who respects
the Constitution, our civil rights and peace.

[Egnever]

9. I think you are pretty close to right

As you know I support Obama.

But I think this one went down with John the clear winner with hillary close behind and obama bringing up the rear.

John was clearly on fire tonight. Hillary I thought had several moments where she did quite well. Obama .... meh He didnt make mistakes but he didnt wow me tonight either. I suppose his goal tonight was to just make it through without making a major gaff and he did that. But as much as it pains me to say it I think John and Hillary outperformed him tonight.

our top three all look beat though, If these guys/girls dont get some rest soon they are all going to start making serious mistakes.

[gmudem]

10. Borderline cruel?

That's a bit over the top don't you think? That comment by Obama was obviously meant as a joke. Anybody who watched the debate knows that that was one of the lighter moments of the debate.

And I completely disagree on "brains and substance." All candidates came across as substantive and when Hillary attacked Obama about healthcare, he skillfully took apart her argument and made Hillary look very weak. It was one of his stronger moments tonight.

[aquart]

20. Gosh. Cruel words have never been spoken in jest.

And cruel jokes don't hurt, either. Or aren't intended to maim. Or be used as soundbites.

Hillary made a joke about Obama being ambitious in kindergarten. What was the reaction to that, I wonder.

But I forgot. It's okay if Obama does it.

[gmudem]

26. Nice spin.

The sad thing about Hillary attacking Obama about his kindergarten essay is that is quite clearly was NOT meant as a joke. If you were watching the debate, you would know that that was one of the lighter moments of the debate and if I recall correctly, Hillary herself was laughing.

[pnwmom]

30. I'm part of "anyone" and I thought Barack's comment was acid.

Definitely not light.

[Cha]

38. Yeah, there's a whole lotta

whining about nothing.

[Maven]

67. No, he sneered at her.

It wasn't a joke.

[CoffeeCat]

11. I thought he said...

..."on the other hand, you're a neocon warmongering weasel."

Maybe I heard wrong.

[Cha]

40. I heard..."you would be

likable enough IF you weren't such a neocon warmongering weasel."

[Quixote1818]

12. No, Obama was clearly trying to be nice in that instance.

At that moment he reminded me of the popular guy at school trying to lift one of the other kids up.

[loveangelc]

14. its called a JOKE.

[Tom Rinaldo]

17. Yes, I think so also. But he didn't flash his winning smile...

...probably because he like everyone else is feeling drained at this point. And those words without that smile were a little jarring to hear. Had Obama flashed the same smile he gave Hillary when he said he would welcome advice from her too when he became President it would have worked. As it is, it left a momentary bad aftertaste. Not a biggie, but he would have been better off just smiling and saying nothing. It won't matter to many in the long run, unless a perception of a pattern of personal slights against Hillary by Obama takes hold, and that is not now the case.

[Quixote1818]

23. He was taking notes at the time

He makes the comment and continues to keep writing but has a small smile at the same time. He probably have the comment very little thought as he was concentrating on taking notes.

[Tom Rinaldo]

31. That sounds right to me

I think it was a small political flub moment totally unrelated to anything of substance, just a small failure to exectute as intended due to the type of distraction you mention. The thing is that Clinton tends not to be given the benefit of doubt around here and in the media in general when the shoe happens to be on the other foot. Small mis steps like that by her in the heat of the moment of debates are used to fuel the "arrogant" and "unlikable" attack memes launched against her. I really really hate this aspect of the political game.

[ruggerson]

42. If Hillary

had done this, or if Edwards was the frontrunner and had done this, it would be the headline on the Drudgereport with his sirens blaring, setting the meme for the media lapdogs to pick up on.

[Tom Rinaldo]

46. Yep. I agree n/t

[avrdream]

50. Yeah, the post debate analysis team thought he was being snarky too.

[loveangelc]

51. yes, & wasn't it after she interrupted with "REALITY CHECK" after he talked about his mother dying?

[pnwmom]

33. It's called a cutting joke. n/t

[emilyg]

36. Only when Obama does it.

[Cha]

39. hillary and her surrogates

are hyper-sensitive right now but they need to buck up quick.

[ruggerson]

45. i am candidate-less

as my candidate dropped out of the race. I'm just an observer now, it's actually much more interesting this way. I don't have to make my mind up till Feb. 5.

[farmboy]

15. Sorry, but Edwards gets the gold for both passion AND inspiration. All three were and can be

highly substantive, so no qualms there.

[cali]

48. the question is- will voters in NH see it the way you did. n/t

[Quixote1818]

19. In terms of brains and substance, all the candidates tied

In terms of using the right tactics to win the debate, both Obama and Edwards won hands down.

In terms of message and passion, Edwards won hands down.

In terms of inspiration, Edwards won hands down.

In terms of not getting the message across in the right way, Hillary lost hands down.

Clinton simply doesn't understand what voters are looking for. They don't just want a change agent who can provide health care but someone who can shake things up. In this respect she failed miserably and Obama and Edwards pounced! Clinton came across as out of touch with the people much as Bush Sr. did when Bill ran against him. She is simply out of touch with the American people's angers about the establishment.

[pnwmom]

24. My reaction to Obama's remark was: huh?

You're right, it sounded arrogant.

And people say that SHE is cold.

[NMMNG]

28. d00d, just bow down and worship his almightiness

He offers HOPE and CHANGE.


Don't you want CHANGE?

[Cameron27]

60. lol

I thought it was an arrogant snark, so have most of the "pundits."

[Hippo_Tron]

34. As I said on another thread, Clinton had the Nixon problem

Had this been a radio debate she may have been the winner. But on television she looked terrible, mostly because of her body language.

[grantcart]

52. Hillary's looks

Definitely not a fan of Hillary but I think she looks great for being over 60

[Hippo_Tron]

53. As I said, it's not physical appearance it was her body language tonight

And in all fairness, Stephanopolous was spot on when he said that they all looked exhausted except for Edwards. But Obama was able to remain in decent shape and Hillary looked mean and nasty, probably most if it having to do with the fact that she was so tired.

Unfortunately in the television age that kind of thing matters.

Likewise when Obama didn't lift his head during the "Hillary you're likeable" moment I don't think it was intentional, I think it was because he was on the verge of falling asleep.

[Cha]

35. Obama did fine.

..isn't she suppose to be the tough one who will never apologize?

Obama was being generous to someone who acts like she wants to go for his jugular.

[CyberPieHole]

37. That remark was tacky and vulgar...

but I am not surprised when it came out of Obama's mouth. It gives us all some insight into how he treats women.

[Seabiscuit]

41. Barack's response was kind of assholey and out of character or was it?

Actually, his comment to HIllary took me aback in the way his facial expression and voice changed because the persona that Barack presents to the media and on the campaign trail is quite pleasant. Could we have seen a side of Obama that exists but is rarely seen? Makes me wonder.

[Beacool]

43. Yep, at the post debate George pointed out that Obama sounded "petty and peevish".

[avrdream]

47. Obama showed himself for what he is with that comment.

A frightened little boy.

I vote for brains or experience (as Bill Richardson said) but I liked John Edwards' passion. I think it was a stupid move on his part to go after Hillary, though. Now he is firmly in the change without experience camp.

[cali]

49. "A frightened little boy"? Interesting. n/t

[Tatiana]

55. So you picked up on that, too?

Little "boy," eh?

[goldcanyonaz]

59. Clinton has been referred to as a girl here often, were you on top of that too?

This forum is far from racist but it is sexist as all hell.

[NMMNG]

62. Interesting perspective

While watching the debate, in between his answers I thought Obama did look like a little kid who was impatient for his turn to get all the attention again.

[Joe the Revelator]

64. And Hillary showed what a angry little girl she was...

...when she threw her temper tan tantrum

[Lord Helmet]

54. I thought he was being nice.

[Enrique]

56. I don't see Obama as sunny and warm

I see him as serious, sharp, and extremely confident and relaxed. Usually on the edge of being arrogant but never quite over the edge.

I didn't see that comment as cruel in any way, and Hillary totally got the humor of it.

[AtomicKitten]

57. That's not the way either Hillary or I took that remark.

He was being nice and she thanked him.

:shrug:

[goldcanyonaz]

63. She's got class.

[AtomicKitten]

71. all lower

[Maven]

68. He wasn't being nice.

Look at the expression on his face and in his voice. He enunciated the word "enough" ("you're likeable enough") almost like he was being charitable to her even to say that much. She thanked him to avoid looking negative or bitter.

[AtomicKitten]

70. Here's what was ACTUALLY said:

Hillary: "He's very likeable. I agree with that. I don't think I'm that bad."

Obama: "You're likeable enough, Hillary. No doubt about it."

Hillary (still smiling): "I appreciate that."

[gulliver]

65. Obama was attempting to be snarky but missed the note, IMO.

I think it was because he was a little embarrassed about having his likeability factor trotted out front and center. Then he is not good at improv.

I gotta disagree on the inspiration factor. I too found Obama inspirational at first, but then I think he faded and went kind of introverted. Hillary inspires me because she doesn't use high flying rhetoric. She keeps her rhetoric close to the earth--where we all live. Other types of inspiration fade when the first string of rainy days hits.

Edwards has passion. But it doesn't make up for his lack of rhetorical skills, IMO. Obama scored some true debate points as did Richardson. Hillary had the lion's share. Edwards came in fourth on debate points, IMO, and I pay no attention to passion. I think the other candidates have passion too, but they don't wear it on their sleeves.

[kentuck]

69. The moment did call for...

him to be a little warmer, perhaps?

[zulchzulu]

72. Obama was just responding to Hillary's "Poor Little Ol' Me" calculated act

He basically responded like someone who would say "no, you don't look fat" where someone else points out the obvious that someone has indeed gotten fat.

[MzShellG]

73. Obama was just being honest as opposed to phony. nt

[Alexander]

74. Obama was complimenting someone who really isn't likeable.

I don't see a problem.